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View Full Version : Swordshattering -vs- Stoneskin Gargoyle: tested

GravityDK
01-11-2009, 07:04 AM
This topic has popped up in quite a few threads.

Here's what we know now, from my testing:

* swordshattering 4% parry is not effected by diminishing returns (it's treated like a racial or talent)
* stoneskin gargoyle 25 Defence Skill, which in turn gives 3% avoidance which is also not effected by DR, and also +2% stamina

The second highlighted point is what I didn't know.

I just tested it on PTR to be sure.

Thus, we have a choice of two runeforges that are wholly exempt from diminishing returns. Wonderful!

My testing
(1) Objective: need to verify whether the in-game parry/dodge shows diminished return avoidance.
Method: Get the avoidance figures with and without Seal of Pantheon. It only adds defence, so easy to do the maths.

With Pantheon:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/nibbly/PTR/th_ScreenShot_011109_110320.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/nibbly/PTR/?action=view&current=ScreenShot_011109_110320.jpg)

No Pantheon:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/nibbly/PTR/th_ScreenShot_011109_110333.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/nibbly/PTR/?action=view&current=ScreenShot_011109_110333.jpg)

Note the dodge goes from 13.35 down to 12.89, and parry from 14.77 to 14.41.
Defence gives 0.04% per point of defence skill to each avoidance stat. The Pantheon gives 13.2 Defence, so we would expect 0.53% loss on dodge and also on parry.
Observed difference was 0.46% and 0.36%, which proves diminishing returns are shown on the char panel.

(2) Test: Add the Gargoyle enchant and observe difference in character sheet.

Swordshattering
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/nibbly/PTR/th_ScreenShot_011109_104306.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/nibbly/PTR/?action=view&current=ScreenShot_011109_104306.jpg)

Gargoyle
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/nibbly/PTR/th_ScreenShot_011109_104352.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/nibbly/PTR/?action=view&current=ScreenShot_011109_104352.jpg)

Note the net change is 1% loss on parry. Therefore Gargoyle's avoidance benefits from Defence are not subject to DR. Awesome.

Corroboration of that test:
Clandestine on EJ tested it (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t36998-dk_tanking_discussion/p38/#post1014400)

New defense runeforge..too good? (http://deathknight.info/forum/index.php?topic=5156.0)
Tank weapons removed (http://deathknight.info/forum/index.php?topic=5221.0)
My thanks to Origon on deathknight.info who first drew my attention to this.

Statistics on ratings
Tankspot library (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/39997-formulas-relationships.html#post107133)

Ray
01-12-2009, 08:22 AM
The paper doll stats do not show the DR on them. So just looking at that, yeah, youll see 3% avoidance with SG vs SS at 4%. You need to get a mod to read it for you such as tankpoints.

If you stack defense, the RF will be give very little to you as opposed to SS which isnt affected by DR due to it not being a rating. Now, could take that 25 def SKILL off the DR due to it not being a rating. IMO, more testing is needed.

GravityDK
01-12-2009, 08:45 AM
The paper doll stats do not show the DR on them. So just looking at that, yeah, youll see 3% avoidance with SG vs SS at 4%. You need to get a mod to read it for you such as tankpoints.

How else do you explain the results of my first test, which showed a DR being applied to the Defence stat?

Satorri
01-13-2009, 05:57 PM
I'm not positive, but I believe Gravity is correct. The important thing to recognize is that it is ratings which are subject to diminishing returns and the new glyph adds flat defense skill.

The thing I'm not 100% about is whether or not it properly applies as a baseline enhancement (+% from Swordbreaker/shatter or talents is applied as a base value and doesn't affect the equation of ratings approaching the cap), though I wouldn't be surprised if that were true. I also wouldn't be surprised if it were designed to factor that to make this more of a beginner tank rune, that falls off a bit in value as yoru gear improves into the tiers.

Currently I'm sporting mostly 200-213 level tanking gear, and the new rune works out to be roughly the same as presented above, trade 4% parry for 1% miss+1% dodge+1% parry, and in my gear about 400 health. Personally, I'm still leaning towards Swordshattering since RS procs off of Parry/Dodge, not miss, and 400 health isn't quite worth the 400 health in my general catch-all tanking set. I may work it on a second weapon or set for different considerations though, we'll see.

Aurelia
01-13-2009, 08:45 PM
I suspect that right now, what a lot of DK tanks are thinking is that the stone gargoyle rune will allow them to upgrade into better gear without having to worry so much about the +def balance. We've all seen that a mixture of rep blues and emblem gear stack much more defence than T7 dk gear, so the stone gargoyle rune will allow for that step up into the full raid set, boosting survivability and threat just that little bit more.

However, once we start getting up to T8 and T9, and (hopefully) getting much better +def on those sets, we'd go back to the rune of swordshattering because of the sheer amount of avoidance it gives.

Blueduck3285
01-13-2009, 08:55 PM
I know for me, stepping up my gear has been challanging while maintaining my def skill. I have been sac'ing gem slots and socket bonus's just to keep my def as close to 540 as possible. This rune will allow me to fully impliment my gear without too much worry about dropping too low on def. But i would agree with Aurelia that hopefully with the next tier we will have no use of it, if only to drop some def gear for hit and expert rating items.

ttocs
01-14-2009, 09:17 AM
I guess what's strange about that is, ratings go to skill, which go to dodge/parry percent. It was my understanding that the dodge/parry gains from defense were subject to DR. Unless there's some separate code for the runeforge, or "things that increase defense skill directly", it doesn't make sense.

Ray
01-14-2009, 11:49 AM
All you need to do to figure this all out is DL tankpoints. It will figure out all of the DRs for you. Dont look at the paperdoll and assume its correct. yes, Def DR can be figured out sort of, but even then, you dont know your real dodge and parry.

The only question I would have is will the enchant "skip" DR by not being a rating. So if someone can take some shots on the PTR using raid buster or tankpoints, please post them.

morelore
01-14-2009, 11:54 AM
All you need to do to figure this all out is DL tankpoints. It will figure out all of the DRs for you. Dont look at the paperdoll and assume its correct. yes, Def DR can be figured out sort of, but even then, you dont know your real dodge and parry.

The only question I would have is will the enchant "skip" DR by not being a rating. So if someone can take some shots on the PTR using raid buster or tankpoints, please post them.

Threads like this are *how* mods like tankpoints figure out the numbers, and what DR applies to what, and how much they are. You might try re-reading the first post in the thread.

GravityDK
01-14-2009, 01:17 PM

It was pretty clear in my OP. I equipped the Pantheon trinket, which from only defence gives dodge and parry, and observed the difference when removed. It showed me that the paper doll does in fact display % with diminished returns.

What is confusing about the paper doll is the MOUSE-OVER tooltips for dodge/parry, which say "before diminishing returns" but that's because the tooltip is referring to the dodge rating it displays.

The final % displayed (with no tooltip) appears to show a diminished return figure.

TankPoints always assumes DR applies, so it will mislead you if you plus +4% parry into its calculator. It will apply DR because it cannot know [yet] the source is one which is exempt from DR (like talents are exempt).

Satorri
01-15-2009, 01:06 PM
Blizzard's "official" blue post on the matter, if someone cares to dig it up, said that avoidance from ratings and attributes is subject to diminishing returns, namely:

1.) Defense rating (miss, dodge, parry chance)
2.) Dodge/parry rating (dodge/parry chance)
3.) Agility (dodge chance)

I'm hoping this is applied through ratings, which would make sense, though I don't know exactly how they code it. It is also a little hard to gauge on the character sheet since you need some big stat changes to really get a sense of changing scale. I know that with a decent upgrade (copied my character to the ptr twice about 3-4 weeks apart) in gear, it still gave the same avoidance values within 0.1-0.2%, but I didn't photo document either.

Tarrke
01-20-2009, 02:57 AM
I will just add to Satorri's list that Str which gave DK parry rating then parry chance is also subject to DR.

Hyku
01-20-2009, 03:12 AM
As I see things with my current gear is that SG will allow me to drop +def enchant/gem and use those slot/enchant for hit/exp, stam and avoidance. With the epic I've stored I'll be at 545 def allowing me to drop the +22 def enchant on chest for 275 HP things like that.
Later on I hope to get enough defense in items so I can get SS for the parry % without having to enchant def or gem def.
So the SG looks like it's there to help DK get crit immune while wearing a 2 Hander.

My 2 cents.

Satorri
01-21-2009, 06:10 AM
Technically Tarrke, Strength is converted into parry rating which is added to your total from gear. It is still parry rating that is diminished, we just get more free parry rating.

Urrick
01-21-2009, 06:23 AM
Didn't play a ton last night but did change my rune to Gargoyle. Defense went from 541-568 which then allowed me to regem a bunch of stuff (oh and now I remember I can upgrade from Daunting legs to the AC ones). I see myself using Garg for a long while, just too nice not having to lean on certain items just to keep you at cap.

Satorri
01-21-2009, 06:26 AM
It's definitely a sharp tool for DK tanks who are still trying to balance all the initial gear options. There's getting to the cap initially, and upgrading from blues that are itemized HEAVILY for defense to epics that leave you continually dropping below the cap.

Urrick
01-21-2009, 06:27 AM
Just noticed WoWArmory isn't counting the 25 defense from the rune. Not a big deal but did give me pause this morning when looking at it.

Tarrke
01-21-2009, 08:09 AM
During the last weeks I've said : nevermind calculating this, avorall 4% parry is always better than 2% hp and 3% avoidance, as there are no DR on both. A powerfull argument was Satorri's one (iff my brain is not yet one like goldfishes) saying that 2% stam is quite poor, if I remember well, in his gear that was something like 500 more hp. So the deal was 2% stam or 1% avoidance. At that time I've just conclude that 1% avoidance was the best to go with.

Now I must admit that this question was getting on my nerves for the last night and I've remember another thing. First getting that stoneskin rune not only gives you 3% avoidance, but this avoidance is got via def. What the point ? the point is that def serves 3 purpose now. First it helps us getting crit immune, and that's great. Second it helps us with avoidance (Dodge + Parry + Miss) and last but not least, it is the only way to improve our IBF.

So am I saying that def is a new ubber stat for us ? I don't think so really, but theses 25 def must be seen not only as 3% avoidance, but also as some mitigation too, as IBF will loose it's O shit button status to get to a : I need some protection at this time button maybe getting stonesking instead of swordshattering is an option.

I'll do some test this night if i can find a partner for this reduction and its increase with def.

Tarrke
01-22-2009, 05:55 AM
I've conduct some test around def and IBF last night.

I've found that at 541 def the absorbtion throught IBF is around 41%. Getting all the extra def I can I jump to 572 (don't have all the numbers here, but will display them during the afternoon) and found that the damage reduction was near 46%.

So now I may say that def as a weapon enchant may not be the best of all enchants, I went back to a swordshattering before Naxx 10 and the healers did complain at all (we went as usual with 2 heals and 1 tank).

Satorri
01-23-2009, 06:41 AM
How did you structure/control your test.

Blizz had said that IBF should be giving you ~35% damage reduction at 540 def.

Tarrke
01-23-2009, 08:22 AM
Ok so the testing part.

first of all finding a damage source that always hit for the same amount. I've found it in the arcane missile spell from mage. Just went duel a mage equiping different sets of stuff. The conciderated mage was lvl 80 so there were no partial resists from any difference of levels. He doesn't got any spell penetration, just hit / crit. I've noted down only the normal tick, so no crit, no resist at all. I've tryed some different stuff so my def was getting from 400 to 572 (max I can get today) and just let him burn me down while on IBF.

So the results :
Def => w/o / with
400 => 727 / 559
426 => 727 / 595
470 => 727 / 562
496 => 727 / 539
541 => 727 / 429
572 => 727 / 391

The first thing I found about that was the odd 400 - 426 def mechanism. I need to conduct more test on that part before we can say anything. This part was done in frost presence. I've done some tests while in blood presence and found similar results :
541 => 856 / 505
572 => 856 / 462

Then I speced for Frost Aura, and there are the most surprising thing. I'm not really up to date with the partial resists mechanic, and this may be where I fail finding an explication to theses numbers :
541 def, Frost presence up, IBF up, same mage : 386 (86 resisted) => so what is that resist at 18.2% ? And more important, why this hit was hitting me at 472 instead of 429 ?

Some more results listed as :
Def / Presence (F/B) / up or down for ISB :
541 / B / up : 454 + 86
572 / F / up : 651 + 86
572 / F / up : 506 + 255
572 / B / up : 416 + 86

As I wrote this down, I may have found a clue I need to check about, the small resist is alway 86, so the partial resist may be apllyed before anything, but then the 86 are to be linked to the 856, so near 10%, then the 255 resist are ~30% of full damage. So if someone may explain this to me I'll be thanksfull.

As for my conclusion I've found that at 541 def we are at ~41% damage reduction, and then at 572 def we are at ~46%.

Further information on this later, I need to convince my mage that I really need him blasting me for hours and wait for my 1 minute CD ^^

GravityDK
01-24-2009, 01:44 PM
I did some testing a little while ago on PTR, and concluded:

each point of Defence above 400 gives +0.15% additional (eg. incremental) IBF damage reduction.

I tested up to 596 defence and it was linear.

So at 600 you are 50% IBF, and 400 you're at baseline learnt 20%.

Test screenshots and so on here (http://deathknight.info/forum/index.php?topic=4984.msg73585#msg73585), and here (http://deathknight.info/forum/index.php?topic=4984.msg73556#msg73556). (Two posts within one thread).

Tarrke, your test results are consistent with my findings, so I think we can say it's proven fact now.
Only remaining question is whether it remains linear above 600 defence.

Satorri
01-26-2009, 06:40 AM
Again, Gravity, testing method is meaningful.

Tarrke, something to remember is that depending on what sort of damage you are taking, and how consistent it is, there are other modifiers that may come and go. For starters, Frost presence currently reduces all spell damage (read: non-physical) by 15%, though with much of this the system is not fully explicated as for the order of calculations. Like you found with the partial resist. I expect they've changed the magic resist system some to go along with all the other tank changes they've made.

IBF, I'm fairly certain from observation, is applied after the fundamental passives, in other words, if you're taking a physical swing, and your armor reduction is 50%, and your IBF is a 40% reduction, you will not take only 10% of the hit, you'll take 40% of 50% of the hit, or from a 20k hit, you'll take 4k damage.

There's also racial passives that become very easy to forget because they're not represented anywhere but in your spell book, though that shouldn't be an issue with arcane damage since no one has a natural "resistance" to that.

We need to keep a close eye on gear/talents and the like when doing these tests. It's easy to think of them as baseline, but they may have varying implications depending on where and how they're applied in the final calculation. For example, the effulgent meta gem offers 2% magic damage reduction, Frost presence provides 15%, Magic Suppression gives 5%. I'm not entirely sure yet if they're applied multiplicatively (2% x 5% x 15% = 23.2%) or are added in a factor later applied (2% + 5% + 15% = 22%). I don't know the formulae so rather than assuming baseline behavior (something that will be consistant as you change other numbers), we need to remove them as factors and make sure we know all of the variables in play.

One thing I do like is that your results point towards one part of the calculations, being that partial resists may be (incorrectly?) calculating before some part of our damage reduction mechanics.

I'd love to believe that the scale is linear and basic, though I'd be a little surprised it it were. At any rate, let's get some more controlled data collection, and be sure to note every detail of the spec and gear you're using, along with race and any other bits you can pick out.

For consistant damage, the general thought has been spell damage instead of physical for consistancy. I like the arcane missle idea, I've also seen people use lava, and the like.

Tarrke
01-28-2009, 01:20 AM
Dear Satorri,

I'm pleased to find an other human beeing that IS as nuts as me on tests protocols, and for that I may never thank you enougth. Ok that said, I've found a friend to play with. Here is the entire protocole for that test :
I'm a human DK w/o Frost presence (at the beginning of the test). I was spec into frost, and the spec used was this one : World of Warcraft Europe -> Info -> Chevalier de la mort -> Talents (http://www.wow-europe.com/fr/info/basics/talents/deathknight/talents.html?tal=005002000000000000000000000325050 51300321103210051013500052300000000000000000000000 00)
I was fighting a human mage and his spec was this one : World of Warcraft Europe -> Info -> Calculateurs de talents (http://www.wow-europe.com/fr/info/basics/talents/mage/talents.html?tal=235005233101330153323102515321030 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000)

He wasn't wearing any Meta and I was wearing (or not depending on equiped slot) the meta with stam and armor (the other one is bound to my resist magic stuff). The only button he pushed during the whole test was Arcane missile, not any other one. No stun, no frost something, nothing else. So I wasn't ever caught in a snearing effect so nothing was ever there to amplify his dmg on me, or from me to reduce his damage (except obviously from IBF).

I've conduct some testing in frost presence and some others in blood presence. The blood tests were to find out what is the scaling of IBF with def. The tests in frost presence were to find how the magique dmg reduction and IBF were cumulating each others.

I'm pretty sure I've missed nothing, but, hey I'm human as stated above. If you find something in that protocole then please tell me. Nothing is perfect, and controlling all conditions is hard sometime, but this time, I think I've got everything under control.

And on the how they code their magic resistance, no even a clue at this time...

Satorri
01-28-2009, 07:37 AM
Always good to be taking note of every condition, often enough you can find the root cause of deviations from expected patterns. Thanks again for the testing. =)