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justatank
01-11-2009, 01:39 AM
New to the forums.. and have a quick question.

My understanding is that one needs 540 Def as a tank in lvl 80 instances run in heroic mode or in Nax so that one does not recieve a critical attack from a boss.

Then I read this at Defense - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Defense)


Critical Hits are strikes or spells by mobs against the player that deal twice the normal damage. The player's Defense and Resilience are both attributes that reduce the chance of an enemy critically striking. The chance to be critically hit is based on the difference between the attacker's weapon skill and the player's defense skill and resilience %. it gives a piece of code that one can run in game


To determine whether you have reached the crit cap through Defense and Resilience, type the following into chat: /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(5.6-((GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL))*.04+GetC ombatRatingBonus(CR_CRIT_TAKEN_MELEE)),1,0.5,0)

If the number is 0 or negative, you are uncritable. If the number is above 0, you require more defense or resilience vs level 73 bosses.
Granted this is for lvl 73 bosses but when I run the code with my best Def number of 529 I recieve a number back of 0.5 and when I try different mixtures of various def and resilience gear I am able to get that number to 0.01

I have 2 questions:

1. Is my mixture which leads to 0.01 good enough for lvl 80 heroics

2. Or is there a valid reason why all I hear in game is "you must have 540 def" and never any discussion of the combination of resilience and def?

Nightdemon
01-11-2009, 01:58 AM
540 Defense is the defense skill required to remove critical hits from the hit table against level 83 mobs. I.E. - 10 Mans / 25 Mans. You need 535 Defense to remove critical hits in a Heroic.


But yes - You can combine both Resilience & Defense, but, in the long run, Defense will benefit you alot more (It decreases chance to be hit, but also increases Dodge + Parry. The hit reduction isnt from Dodge / Parry, it is in the form of a miss, on the hit table - Read the tool-tip of Defense (It reduces chance to be hit, and critically hit).

Also, I'm yet to see tanking gear with Resilience (Resilience is a PvP stat, so tanking gear with Res in would be kinda useless). Afaik, Resilience doesn't scale as well, either, but I may be wrong. Haven't got the exact values for both.

justatank
01-11-2009, 02:07 AM
540 Defense is the defense skill required to remove critical hits from the hit table against level 83 mobs. I.E. - 10 Mans / 25 Mans. You need 535 Defense to remove critical hits in a Heroic.


But yes - You can combine both Resilience & Defense, but, in the long run, Defense will benefit you alot more (It decreases chance to be hit, but also increases Dodge + Parry. The hit reduction isnt from Dodge / Parry, it is in the form of a miss, on the hit table - Read the tool-tip of Defense (It reduces chance to be hit, and critically hit).

Also, I'm yet to see tanking gear with Resilience (Resilience is a PvP stat, so tanking gear with Res in would be kinda useless). Afaik, Resilience doesn't scale as well, either, but I may be wrong. Haven't got the exact values for both.

Agreed that the Dodge + Parry decrease benefit is nice.. but is that why only 540 Def is espoused?

Not trying to start trouble here lol. Just wanting to know why everyone so far in my realm that I have spoken with says things like:

"get rid of all that resilience gear"

I am looking to get the def gear from Nexus but am turned away because I dont have 540 Def. Yet when I switch to the def gear (need a few more pieces) that will get me started in Nexus, I lose tons of other stats, yet per that code I am much less likely to be critically hit ( 0.01 ) than with the def at 529 and no resilience gear (0.5)

Thanks again

Tarkonn
01-11-2009, 02:37 AM
Agreed that the Dodge + Parry decrease benefit is nice.. but is that why only 540 Def is espoused?

Not trying to start trouble here lol. Just wanting to know why everyone so far in my realm that I have spoken with says things like:

"get rid of all that resilience gear"

I am looking to get the def gear from Nexus but am turned away because I dont have 540 Def. Yet when I switch to the def gear (need a few more pieces) that will get me started in Nexus, I lose tons of other stats, yet per that code I am much less likely to be critically hit ( 0.01 ) than with the def at 529 and no resilience gear (0.5)

Thanks again

It sounds like you're trying to shift from PvP to tanking heroics a little too soon. I suggest running regular instances until such a time that you have your defense capped out. You should never think that because you are 80 and have non-tank epic gear that you are "good enough" for heroics already. Gearing is progressive, not interchangeable.

Trust me, spend a week of doing regular instances, and you'll be geared in no time.

Nightdemon
01-11-2009, 02:38 AM
529 Defense? For every 5 Defense skill, you remove 0.2% chance to be crit.

In Heroics, the highest level mob which you will encounter is level 82. That requires 535 Defense (Reduction of 5.4% Crit chance).

At 529 Defense, you have a bonus 129 Defense (over the base 400).

Thats 129 / 5 = 25.8

25.8 * 0.2 = 5.16 reduction of crit chance.

(Mobs have a 5% base chance to crit. For every level the mob is above you, they gain 0.2% Chance to crit).

Thats 5.4-5.16 = 0.24% Chance to be crit.


No idea what the command you posted does, but its incorrect.

Also agree with the above poster. Run some normals til you get the last bit of defense. Resilience gear won't have the tanking stats you need, and is generally worse for tanking beaucse of this.

hvidgaard
01-11-2009, 03:18 AM
I wouldn't sweat it too much tbh. Find a decent healer that don't mind a challenge and it'll run just fine. I've healed heroics with tanks barely over 500 def and yes, they do take a crit once in a while, but the damage isn't that great.

If you can't find said healer, then I guess you have to do it the hard way with craftables, normal drops, and you can even use the resillience flask until you have enough defense.

justatank
01-11-2009, 03:26 AM
With all due respect, I am not convinced that resilience cant be combined with def in order for one to not be critically hit in a lvl 80 instance Heroic mode.

from:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/33824-resilience-defense-calculator-there-one.html


Yes, there seems to be an online calculator to sort out where your toon stands re being uncrittable post-patch: A list of useful Tanking Formulas for Warriors - Dodge, Parry, Block (http://www.tankingtips.com/tanking-formulas)

You plug in your resilience, and it tells you the defense rating you require to be uncrittable.

Also, not having regemmed/re-enchanted since the latest patch (when our defense rating plummeted ~ 20 points), I find my prot warrior toon is "overcapped" for defense, and I can free up 12 defense rating points - that with current defense rating of 482 and resilience of 33 - and remain uncrittable. See Be Imba! - the online Character Auditor for World of Warcraft (http://be.imba.hu/)

The moral of course is uncrittable is a combination of (at least) two components: defense rating and resilience. Granted I agree that achieving the 0 chance for critical thru def vs. def and res is better.. it does seem that as the 0 chance for critical thru def and resilience is an option.

In that thread the poster makes the same point.. that he was looked up on the armory and all that was looked at was def.. thus he was turned down.

Once that one can get into Nexus heroic, then good def gear can be attained. While focusing on only def gear prerequiste for Nexus commanding that only def 540 vs def and resilience is used creates a great loss in other stats.... for me looking at a reduction of 2000hp - 900 armor - 100 str - 300 attack power etc.

So if one can become 0 chance crit + 2000hp +100 str + 300 attack power etc that would seem worth considering. I need 3 more def as of this post for the magical 540 def... but have lost so much in other areas.

As for finding a healer that will work with me... well, thats what brought me here... see, after being immediately kicked out of parties with not a word when they asked "what is your def" I stumbled upon articles such as the ones menioned in this thread while reading about def gear and the connection to critical hits from bosses.

thank you all for the replies.

orcstar
01-11-2009, 03:39 AM
Don't use any fancy addons to calculate if you're uncritable :)

Go to your character tab: hover over defense: you get a critreduction number, hover over resilience, you get a crit reduction number: add them together and if you get crit reduction above 5.6% you are uncritable. (5.4% for heroics)

YES resilience helps you get crit immune.

BUT remember for PvE: all resilience when you are already crit immune is waste of stats, it does practically nothing.
More defense when you are already at 540 is still one of the best stats out there.

Firstprime
01-11-2009, 06:11 AM
BUT remember for PvE: all resilience when you are already crit immune is waste of stats, it does practically nothing.

Resilience also reduces the periodic damage from dots but thats really neither here nor there resilience is much much worse that defense.

Have you taken a look at http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/41986-cider-s-easy-540-defense-gear-guide.html

For my DK I used http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/40966-polar-s-easy-pre-naxx-tank-gear-list.html and was able to get crit immune without having to tag along as dps or farm normal instances. you should be able to hit 540 using bs craftable items and quest rewards along with a few defense enchants.

Unless you have a well geared healer friend who will help you farm heroics till you become geared I wouldn't recommend using pvp items with resilience as a short cut to becoming crit immune.

Morgo
01-11-2009, 06:34 AM
Resilience is the cheapest way to get crit-immune, it scales BETTER then defense. But don't get me wrong, because defense provides a ton of avoidance, you should NEVER take resilience over defense. In case you need to get crit-immune in a hurry, the Lesser Flask of Toughness - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40079) and Kharmaa's Grace - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44066) are very attractive options, just keep in mind that they are band-aid fixes. In general, if you tank a boss that can kill you with a critical hit, you are undergeared anyway ;) So, heroics while not defense capped is usually percectly doable, just watch your health, take a good healer and be quick with cooldowns should one slip by.

Fayre
01-11-2009, 11:51 AM
540 is a 'shorthand' way of saying 'are you uncrittable?'

You can be uncrittable using a combination of defence and resilience. No it's not ideal, yes its fine when perhaps you're just starting out and gear can be harder to get.

downset
01-11-2009, 01:10 PM
i am not sure why pvp players seem to think they can jump straight into HC without having to gear up first, i had the same problem with a dps warrior thinking his purple pvp gear would be plenty to start HC, with the same kind of discussion

why should the healer be better geared to heal through the extra dmg you take because you think you can have a free pass at HC? its not even that hard to collect +def gear, just using the crafted BS pieces and some q rewards gets you there easy.

maybe i am in a bad mood, but i am getting very tired of getting pugs that seem to think normal difficulty isn't for them, i had lots of fun in normal instances when my gear was lacking for HC why does everyone else want to skip the progression?

jere
01-11-2009, 01:36 PM
With all due respect, I am not convinced that resilience cant be combined with def in order for one to not be critically hit in a lvl 80 instance Heroic mode.


There is a fine line about what "can" be done and what "should" be done. Yes, you can be crit immune with resilience and even a combination of defense and resilience. But if all at possible, you should not do it.

Why? You seem to be caught up on the "crit immune and I am ready to go" mentality. There is much more to tanking than simply being crit immune and having a decent sized hit pool. Avoidance is a very important part of being a tank. Resilience provides no avoidance while defense provides quite a lot. It's that simple. A tank who bases themselves on being crit immune via resilience is gimping them self and their group by having lower avoidance than they could and are exposing them self to a lot more incoming damage than they should. Being crit immune is a must for tanking, but it isn't the only must.

With that said, if you are close to being crit immune and a little resilience will push you over, then that is ok, but you should be actively trying to replace resilience with defense based gear. In the long run it will produce better results.

In short, using resilience to get that last bit of crit immunity is ok as a temporary solution. Think that using resilience as a long term solution is not ok. It is inferior to defense.

Also, you can get all the defense gear you need in normal instances. You don't have to start at heroics to get it. There is crafted gear that is available as well as some reputation gear. It isn't hard to do, it just takes planning, a bit of patience, and some work.

macfeagle
01-11-2009, 03:03 PM
The requirement for tanking heroics is: Be level 80. Everything else is artificially applied, it's not like you can't zone in.

If you go before you are crit immune, you may take a crit, which depending upon the circumstances might flatten you. It won't necessarily, but if you are having trouble obtaining crit immunity, chances are you have other problems, involving low health and armor and avoidance, and possibly involving not knowing how to play, if you didn't tank frequently in previous content. So crit immunity is not just something you get so you'll be crit immune, you become crit immune by gearing, which is a good thing to do for reasons other than just becoming crit immune, and the process of gearing often teaches a new tank about the mechanics of tanking.

So when I hear that a tank is not crit immune, I expect him to also have low overall damage reduction, to probably be confused about encounters, and to maybe be confused about how to tank in general, all of which are larger problems than his taking the occasional critical hit.

A tank can achieve crit immunity via PvP gear, but this is usually not correct gearing because avoidance tends to be low because crit reduction via defense on PvE gear also increases avoidance. In most cases this kind of gearing simply isn't as good as can be obtained via PvE gear.

Enemisses
01-11-2009, 04:06 PM
Honestly I started running and clearing heroics just fine with about 480 defense, (was still using most of my level 70 set back then). I don't recall even one wipe because of my low defense, there were a couple of close calls where I got very unlucky and took 2 or more crits in a row, but I pulled through those with use of Last Stand, Shield Wall, or a pot. I really don't understand why anyone tries to impose some sort of "540 defense" minimum on any tank trying to run a heroic. Especially when most of them probably know nothing about tanking.

Maybe I just know good healers though.. /shrug

Niian
01-11-2009, 04:16 PM
Macfeagle - from personal experience it isn't enough to just be level 80 and expect to be able to tank heroics.

Until Wrath came out I had either played DPS classes or healing classes. As a spur of the moment thing I levelled my pally first, and specced it prot. Upon hitting 80 some guildies of mine decided to take me to a H:CoT run, when I was under defense cap, had never done it before and shouldn't have even set foot into the instance.

Long story short, we had a druid in the party at all times to pick up when I died, and boy did I die a lot.
My recommendation is to get defense gear over resil gear, because the def. gear is designed for tanking thus will have (generally) more HP or more avoidance stats.

You can get some really nice crafted tanking gear for a starter, and some high defense reputation gear.

Shakari
01-11-2009, 04:24 PM
Basically put is just because you CAN tank with below 435 defence in heroics does not and never will mean you should..

Imo its lazy wanting to skip out of gearing up, hell you can do it nearly with just BS craftables.

there is no really excuse for sloppy ethics when tanking, those that actually make the effort to gear up with craftables and normal instance runs would in my book be better players simple because they care about the char there playing and not just "want to short cut to the good loot by relying upon the healer to be over geared".

At the end I think it comes down to pride in what you do, I was 540 before setting foot in a heroic, took about 3 days after hitting 80 ... very easily done, now why should some poor healer have to put up with a tank who would not even make that effort is beyond me lol

Tarkonn
01-11-2009, 06:01 PM
Honestly I started running and clearing heroics just fine with about 480 defense, (was still using most of my level 70 set back then). I don't recall even one wipe because of my low defense, there were a couple of close calls where I got very unlucky and took 2 or more crits in a row, but I pulled through those with use of Last Stand, Shield Wall, or a pot. I really don't understand why anyone tries to impose some sort of "540 defense" minimum on any tank trying to run a heroic. Especially when most of them probably know nothing about tanking.

Maybe I just know good healers though.. /shrug

Most likely your healers are able to pick up the slack, correct.


In wrath content, being crit immune via 540 defense means you have worked actively while leveling to acquire gear towards your spec. You've put the time and effort that is required to do your job efficiently. Surely in BC, I got to 70 and had to get 490 defense. I attempted to tank heroic ramps just after dinging 70, and we wiped twice within the first pull.

The same theory is applied to the new expansion. Just because you know how to tank or used to have T4/T5/etc. in BC, it means squat with 80 heroics. The OP is talking about going from PvP to tanking PvE heroics, which the gear does not scale to the role. Had he gone to a DPS spec, his gear would have been fine. Just because you're crit immune in PvP gear does not mean you can PvE tank heroics. All of your tank gear earned through PvE also gives you avoidance, which PvP gear does NOT. So you have no avoidance with PvP gear, and no avoidance because you want to stack +resil gear. I don't know about you, but a crit immune tank with 30% dodge/block/parry will be horrible compared to a 60-65% avoidance geared tank.

Alternatively though, you can tank non-heroics just fine. As I stated before, please, get your feet wet in instances before going and doing them on heroic. You'll get your gear, and you will never have to worry about people passing you up because you have inferior stats to someone who has put the work in.:cool:

Rude
01-11-2009, 07:08 PM
A 16 resilience rating gem will knock 0.19% chance to crit off of you. A 16 defense gem will only do 0.13%. Meaning that when looking solely at uncritability, resilience provides more per point. So, if gemming resilience will make you uncritable when defense won't, go for it.

Scotteq
01-11-2009, 07:09 PM
The counter argument is that Defense does more for you than Resil - It also adds to Dodge, Parry, and the mob's chance to outright miss. Resiliance doesn't do that.

justatank
01-11-2009, 08:02 PM
Interesting discussion and much appreciated.

On a side note: I was able to get geared to 535 last night and while I was gtg the I found that while everyone is concerned if the tank has the proper def, no on questions the stats of others and due to very poor healing etc we wiped fast and all jumped out.

In the second try with an excellent healer there was another party member that could not handle it, and once again.. the only concern from the start was does the tank have the *proper* def.

What sucked was that the healer took the Arcane-Shielded Helm Arcane-Shielded Helm - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i37135) which is what I really need from Nexus (but that's another story.

The bottom line I am finding is that there seems to be so much focus on the tanks def numbers and no interest in the rest of the party. It seems that many think that a 540 def tank is the only thing needed.

I did not come here to start controversy, but to learn.. and with your help I am.

Ok so I have my 535 def and it seems the problem is not me as we cleared 2 bosses tonight... rather it is those who focus on the tank having 535-540 and not themselves.

540... well thats a good guideline... but imho, there is more to it then that... so many are in such a hurry that they think "540 def tank..we are gtg" when that is not the case at all.

I was not trying to jump to fast from pvp to heroic tank... merely questioning if resilience could be used at the bottom of the rung in order to attain some gear from Nexus better than lvl 75-78 crafted items and some rep gear.

Take a peek at me please at my 535 def gear
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cairne&n=Adionysus)
and if you know of other gear I can get other than Nexus or from rep running heroics I sure would appreciate that.


Thank you all very!

Tristessa
01-11-2009, 08:07 PM
2. Or is there a valid reason why all I hear in game is "you must have 540 def" and never any discussion of the combination of resilience and def?
It's only because that's the only stat other classes know to look for in a tank (in addition to health and armor). They've been conditioned from TBC to ask for 490def, and they automatically look for new min. defense requirement, which is 540. They also want to know if you've put in the effort to become a tank.

The "valid reason" is simply because they want to make sure they take the steps necessary to increase the chances of their PUG's success. If you were in their position, wouldn't you do the same?

It's the same thing when looking for DPS for a heroic; most people would ask "what's your DPS?" They won't ask "what's your spec? Do you know how to play your class? Which stats are you stacking?"

Yes, Defense is the better option for uncrittability than resilience because it gives you more. And of course you can stack resilience to "patch" the lack of Defense in your gear.

Next time people ask you "what's your def?", just tell them like it is. Something like "I'm 530, but I got the resilience to make me uncrittable." If they don't know what you're talking about, then too bad. If they're willing to listen, just give them a bit of a primer about uncrittability and how resilience works. I don't see what's the problem with that.

justatank
01-11-2009, 10:50 PM
It's only because that's the only stat other classes know to look for in a tank (in addition to health and armor). They've been conditioned from TBC to ask for 490def, and they automatically look for new min. defense requirement, which is 540. They also want to know if you've put in the effort to become a tank.

The "valid reason" is simply because they want to make sure they take the steps necessary to increase the chances of their PUG's success. If you were in their position, wouldn't you do the same?

It's the same thing when looking for DPS for a heroic; most people would ask "what's your DPS?" They won't ask "what's your spec? Do you know how to play your class? Which stats are you stacking?"

Yes, Defense is the better option for uncrittability than resilience because it gives you more. And of course you can stack resilience to "patch" the lack of Defense in your gear.

Next time people ask you "what's your def?", just tell them like it is. Something like "I'm 530, but I got the resilience to make me uncrittable." If they don't know what you're talking about, then too bad. If they're willing to listen, just give them a bit of a primer about uncrittability and how resilience works. I don't see what's the problem with that.

Appreciate the response and this is getting off topic.. (my fault).

Did not have the chance to explain to them.

It was "whats your def?" and bam I was booted.

I am past that now as I have 535... now they let me stay but its.. "damn your dps is low" ......

Back to regular programming... I have my answers, thank you all :)

Dreadski
01-12-2009, 03:14 PM
Lots of valid responses but no one's addressing the probem; he just needs to get uncrittable. Add a small amount of resil, since you won't lose any avoidance anyway, and maybe the next upgrade will fill in the defense gap. You guys are reading too deeply into a simple request. Yes defense is better, but can you sub resilience to become uncrittable? Definately. End of discussion.

Molohk
01-12-2009, 04:18 PM
With all due respect, I am not convinced that resilience cant be combined with def in order for one to not be critically hit in a lvl 80 instance Heroic mode.
You're right, you can combine both stats to become "uncrittable". But there are two issues that you have to consider:

1) Stat vs Stat: Defense also gives you block/parry/dodge, so the extra defense rating you need to get to 540 defense, will also give you more than 5% block, parry and dodge. Resilience has no effect on your block/dodge/parry, so by mixing resilience with defense you wont have as much block, dodge and parry as you could have with only defense.

2) Itemization: Gear with defense rating usually has other useful tanking stats, such as dodge, block, sbv, parry, etc. And gear with resilience almost never has any other useful tanking stats (other than stamina, perhaps). By wearing resilience gear instead of stamina gear you'll gain less bonuses to your tanking stats.

So, you can become uncrittable by mixing defense and resilience, but you will be gimping other very important tanking stats by doing so. Being uncrittable doesn't mean much when you have 8% chance to dodge/crit/hit.

That being said, I did wear one resilience item to become uncrittable, that was immediately replaced by the first decent defense item I could find. it did the job, but I wouldn't recommend that for tanking a heroic, unless your healer is willing/able to make up for the extra damage you'll be taking.

Knighterrant81
01-12-2009, 06:45 PM
I think the issue has been covered pretty well, but I would like to put a different spin on it for you.

As a tank, you have a large responsibility (and your reputation on your server depends on it) for making the fights go smoothly. Some tanks go all out to get the best gear they have available and learning all the fights before they step into heroics. This is so they can ensure a smooth and enjoyable run for their group. One of those things you can do for that is to have 535 defense (540 for raiding).

It really is very selfish to step into a heroic and expect the other group members to try to make up for your substandard gear. Just like I would never expect anyone to try to heal through my Heroic gear on Malygos or something. That is simply unfair. They put in the work to be ready for the content, so should you.

Some pugs get their hair in a twist about things like 540 defense, or 20k health, but that comes from having bad tanks and not understanding how tanking works. That doesn't absolve you of responsibility when you try to take on content that your gearing won't support.

Do the work, don't take shortcuts.

Dhalphir
01-12-2009, 07:11 PM
Resilience is a fantastic stat if you are sitting at 530ish defense and would have to swap in a vastly inferior piece of gear to attain the required 540 defense. But you should not include resilience as part of your gearing plan.

macfeagle
01-12-2009, 09:04 PM
Take a peek at me please at my 535 def gear
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cairne&n=Adionysus)


I'd be afraid of you because of low health and strange gearing choices, i.e. str gem, haste trinkets, and Nesingwary 4000 instead of Armor Plated Shotgun. You shouldn't be deliberately stacking crit, str, or haste.

clavarnway
01-12-2009, 09:20 PM
Pretty sure they made it so Resilience doesn't work in PVE anymore. I don't know of a handy way to check previous patch notes, however.

edit: I think I am mistaken here - there was a blue post that said they were considering it, but I don't think it ever went through.

loquatious
01-12-2009, 11:25 PM
For my shield block/shield rating set I'm looking at the PVP pieces - they have crit and decent stam and str, gem sockets - in that set i'm currently very crittable. I can live with it but if 2 pieces of PVP gear will remove crit on Heroic bosses and support the high dps/threat set with dps stats I think it's a good gear choice for that application.

Tierax
01-13-2009, 10:39 AM
I can live with it but if 2 pieces of PVP gear will remove crit on Heroic bosses and support the high dps/threat set with dps stats I think it's a good gear choice for that application.A tank has two primary concerns; holding aggro and survivability. When starting heroics, your TPS will not be a huge concern, but your survivability will be the key issue.

Alot of 10/25man tanks are now dropping some mit for more DPS/TPS but that is only because they're EH and avoidance stats are high enough to trivialize the content. Or at least, that is the way I see it.

From a survival standpoint, defense is the clear superior and thus resil should be avoided.

westernfox
01-13-2009, 11:13 AM
Also, you can get all the defense gear you need in normal instances. You don't have to start at heroics to get it.

Not to mention there's a ton of defense to be had via WoTLK gems and enchants (including vendor head & shoulder enchants), I can't see any valid reason for a tank to utilize res to hit uncrittable, heck worst case scenario carry around some of the old flasks of fortification (they're cheap now) if you need that little bit of extra defense to push you over the cap but heaven forbid wearing PvP gear for the res while tanking instances.

Dreadski
01-13-2009, 12:57 PM
Re-bumping my previous statement. While not the best choice, resil will keep you from being crit if you have to swap in a piece to reach that mark in order to enter heroics. I tanked all of BT in a season 3 chest because of the high stamina and hit. It allowed me to choose avoidance pieces that had less def on them while still keeping it survivable. I think I'm seeing something of either a lack of experience or some kind of elitist-ism in a lot of these posts. Bottom line- the upgrades will come, using a little resil to get your foot in the door is not a crime. It will all be ok please calm down.

Tarkonn
01-13-2009, 02:57 PM
Re-bumping my previous statement. While not the best choice, resil will keep you from being crit if you have to swap in a piece to reach that mark in order to enter heroics. I tanked all of BT in a season 3 chest because of the high stamina and hit. It allowed me to choose avoidance pieces that had less def on them while still keeping it survivable. I think I'm seeing something of either a lack of experience or some kind of elitist-ism in a lot of these posts. Bottom line- the upgrades will come, using a little resil to get your foot in the door is not a crime. It will all be ok please calm down.

I didn't see any sense of elitism in this thread. However, I did see people asking if their resil gear was "just enough" instead of getting proper tank gear.

Don't be that guy, nobody likes that guy, lol.;)

Kazeyonoma
01-13-2009, 03:04 PM
to get started there's nothing wrong with using some resil. when i first entered heroics I was still using my season 3 shield wall and season 4 throwing weapon. not only do they give decent stats, the resil helped me get to 5.4% uncritability for the instances. In TBC I used season 2 shoulders until I got the ones off of netherspite. Lots of PvP gear as much as it has tons of dps stats, also has high stamina, high armor, and uncrittability resilience. If you aren't hurting in the avoidance stats but could use some stam,armor and maybe some leighway in your gearing. resil is a decent stat.

Say.. you're using a crappy tanking ring that has 20 defense but has low stam and no armor, and you get this to drop: Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37784)

Are you saying he'd be better off sticking with pure defense instead of grabbing this, and then maybe using giving up a less optimal .... throwing weapon or something with resil? I definitely don't see a problem with this. Honestly, I never got the Seal of Pantheons to drop from Halls of Lightning, so sometimes if I got gear upgrades, I'd drop below the 540 defense minimum. Up until I got the Repelling Charge from thaddius, sometimes when the situation called for it, I'd equip my PvP trinket with resil. Why? Because it worked. and my next best trinket was just for some minor avoidance boost.

frim
01-13-2009, 03:04 PM
Resil gear is a band-aid. Take advantage of it if thats what you have to get the job done. PvP gear usually is high in stam and armor so its really not a bad choice to sub in pvp gear for weak gear spots while you are trying to fill them out with better things. Would I suggest walking into a heroic with 90% pvp gear and a shield? Not really. But 1 or 2 pieces to fill gaps are just fine.

Tarkonn
01-14-2009, 02:08 AM
to get started there's nothing wrong with using some resil. when i first entered heroics I was still using my season 3 shield wall and season 4 throwing weapon. not only do they give decent stats, the resil helped me get to 5.4% uncritability for the instances. In TBC I used season 2 shoulders until I got the ones off of netherspite. Lots of PvP gear as much as it has tons of dps stats, also has high stamina, high armor, and uncrittability resilience. If you aren't hurting in the avoidance stats but could use some stam,armor and maybe some leighway in your gearing. resil is a decent stat.

Say.. you're using a crappy tanking ring that has 20 defense but has low stam and no armor, and you get this to drop: Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37784)

Are you saying he'd be better off sticking with pure defense instead of grabbing this, and then maybe using giving up a less optimal .... throwing weapon or something with resil? I definitely don't see a problem with this. Honestly, I never got the Seal of Pantheons to drop from Halls of Lightning, so sometimes if I got gear upgrades, I'd drop below the 540 defense minimum. Up until I got the Repelling Charge from thaddius, sometimes when the situation called for it, I'd equip my PvP trinket with resil. Why? Because it worked. and my next best trinket was just for some minor avoidance boost.


Actually, I picked up the Keystone great ring a while ago. I have tested putting it in instead of my blue +stam/+str/+def/+block value ring and guess what?

The mitigation is better with the defense.

No matter how i swap around that ring, I still end up much better off with having my blue ring compared to this epic. Just because it's epic and has avoidance doesn't mean it's meant for you. That ring really shines for druids, not us.

So yes, my answer is to keep the +def ring even though you picked up an epic ring. If you're seriously trying to put the Keystone into what you're using, methinks you should roll a droooood!

hvidgaard
01-14-2009, 02:58 AM
Actually, I picked up the Keystone great ring a while ago. I have tested putting it in instead of my blue +stam/+str/+def/+block value ring and guess what?

The mitigation is better with the defense.

What blue ring are you talking about? I would almost dare say that unless your EH is high without eighter ring, the Keystones will always win because it has so much EH (78sta and 490 armor is alot for a ring).

Edit, I wouldn't call Unsmashable Heavy Band - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37186) a crappy tanking ring ;)

Wolftank
01-14-2009, 03:23 AM
Well I was 540 def. before trying out heroics. My experience have been that many people are undergeared when starting them... after I have been out-dpsing people I am usually "kind" enough to point that out to them, and usually also helpfull in determining how they can gear up fast... Many are overlooking some very nice gear from the rep-factions.

That brings me to replying to Justatank's request for comments...
GET THE BLOODY Standard Issue Legguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44239) from Argent Crusade... I used those well into Naxxx25. And do yourself a favor, read the gear lists found on these forums and see what you can get for those slots you still have pvp gear in.
(And yes you are honored with AC so can get those leg guards now).
Check the other factions and what they have for tanking - can remember that that Wyrmrest have a nice back at honored, but there are a lot.

/Wolf :Q

Porga
01-14-2009, 06:25 AM
540 is not the only way, 540 for raid content and 535 for heroics is advisable, and makes everyone’s life a lot easier

But it do piss me off a bit that as soon I get in a heroic group/or try to, the first question is how much defence you have.

I don’t see anyone asking if a dps know what buttons to press!!! And trust me I have found a few that don’t.

To tank is much more than gear, its mostly awareness, to know when to use block/disarm (you can disarm most bosses in heroics), to position the mobs so they don’t bypass you’re avoidance, to position the mobs so they don’t cone/cleave the rest of the group, to find what mobs you losing the grip and grab them before they hit someone else, etc, to save you’re cool downs for the right time etc…

Besides 540 deff or even 1000 wont make you completely uncritable, there are no 100% rules in wow, 540 deff will remove crits from the combat table, but there are still crits that happen after that, its very rare but happen.

I started doing HC this week had 505 deff at the time, and I am currently at 517 deff, 20K healt 22K armur and 48% avoidance, crit chances are very low for mobs now, and it’s a lot easier to get those last 23 deff doing heroics, be it from rep items or badges stuff. I been healed from fully 25 man geared healers and from new just respect for healing healers all in blues, and all wipes so far happened because someone did something dumb, not because the healer was unable to heal the tank.

doomwarder
01-14-2009, 04:36 PM
Getting 540 defense isn't hard. I just dinged this morning and when I get from the base of 395(lvl 79 max) to the max at level 80 (400) I will be at 542 defense. That is with a mixture of horrid trinkets, instance blues, quest blues, and some cheap AH gear. None of which are enchanted for +defense currently just +stam armor kits and what not. So it just takes some consideration as to what instances u prioritize running.

Also I does help that I only quested for quest chains that gave me gear upgrades, I leveled from 68-80 in instances mainly.

Tohunga
01-15-2009, 01:01 PM
Resil = pvp; def = pve. Thats the easiest way I have to explain it. Reaching 540 defense really isn't difficult, with the tempered saronite pieces having a wealth of defense on them. You can probably reach def cap without even stepping into a heroic, and only spending 150-200g on crafted gear.

The argument on defense vs resil is only really viable for druid tanks and DK tanks imo, because they don't gain as much benefit from defense (b/c they both don't block) as warriors and pallies do. For warr tanks and pally tanks, there really isn't any reason why you shouldn't be at def cap, or at least near it.

That being said, its not impossible to tank an instance below 535 def. It's just a question of making your life easier and reducing a chance of wiping.

Muffin Man
01-15-2009, 04:51 PM
The argument on defense vs resil is only really viable for druid tanks and DK tanks imo, because they don't gain as much benefit from defense (b/c they both don't block) as warriors and pallies do. For warr tanks and pally tanks, there really isn't any reason why you shouldn't be at def cap, or at least near it.

That was true for druid in TBC. Now they have a talent that reduces their chance to take a critical hit. So no more seeing Druids in a weird hodgepodge of Raid and PVP gear.

For DK's this might be true in the future. But since lvl 80 PVP gear wasn't easily obtainable at release. Most DK tanks just did it the 'right' way and stacked defense. And now that you can easily get lvl 80 pvp gear, DK's are getting that rune of +defense to weapon which hopefully will be enough that new DK tanks aren't going to be temped by the Resilience route.

My main complaint with resilience isn't that it's inferior to defense (it's only mostly worthless if you stack it past uncrittability), but that PvP gear as a whole is itemized differently than tank gear. Now, certain gimmick fights like Kael'Thas in MgT I would actually tank in full pvp gear since he almost never melee'd. NPC spells can't crit anyways and he does that DoT for half the fight.

Dreadski
01-15-2009, 07:35 PM
Why would you worry about crits in heroic MgT?

Nvm it's not important. The point is, yes, defense is always better. Yes, it is easy to reach 540 to an extent. Yes, if you don't quite make 540 it's perfectly ok to wear pvp gear to make up the small amount of crit chance left over. I still say there's way too much discussion on this.

I tanked all of BT up through our first 2 Illidan kills in a season 3 chestpiece, it had tons of stam, armor and hit rating, not to mention strength. I used the 18 stam/20 resil head enchant too, imagine that. And guess what? It was fine.

Ushebti
01-16-2009, 04:30 AM
That was true for druid in TBC. Now they have a talent that reduces their chance to take a critical hit. So no more seeing Druids in a weird hodgepodge of Raid and PVP gear.


Atm. on the test realms they have changed "survival of the fittest" to increase the armor contribution, by a bit actually, but then again Druids wont be uncritable from talents.

So if this end up in the patch, either the damage reduction from the far more armor will equal out the DPS the boss would do if it landed a crit.

But if it doesn't equal out, defense and resillience gear might be mixed again.

jere
01-16-2009, 06:17 AM
Atm. on the test realms they have changed "survival of the fittest" to increase the armor contribution, by a bit actually, but then again Druids wont be uncritable from talents.

So if this end up in the patch, either the damage reduction from the far more armor will equal out the DPS the boss would do if it landed a crit.

But if it doesn't equal out, defense and resillience gear might be mixed again.

I thought they added that armor multiplier to survival of the fittest. The crit reduction should still be on the talent.

Muffin Man
01-16-2009, 12:23 PM
Why would you worry about crits in heroic MgT?

At level 70 I was worried about it. At lvl 70 without any raid or badge gear.

Maybe it was needless since npc spells can't crit and that place was all about the spell flinging.


Atm. on the test realms they have changed "survival of the fittest" to increase the armor contribution, by a bit actually, but then again Druids wont be uncritable from talents.

If they do that, it would be a mistake IMO. Druids should be able to tank without resorting to pvp. Especially since the other 3 tank classes can.

minrog
01-26-2009, 03:02 PM
Ironically enough in a year you'll probably be subbing in PVP gear + PVE DPS gear so you aren't rage starved in heroic dungeons (but are still uncrittable).

I used some of the spell power pvp set on my Paladin alt to be uncrittable in TBC, never really came up as an issue. The Paladin alt had 16k unbuffed hps and I would say that your hp pool is what they look at first. I've seen a topic relating to this elsewhere. Just a guess but if your hps are low then that's probably when they start looking at your other stuff to make sure you're really a tank.