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tripp6sic6
01-10-2009, 11:43 PM
I had an interesting debate with one of the officers in my guild today. I lead an Alliance guild that has downed almost all of the current content (Thaddius, Sapph, KT, and Multi-drake Sarth to go on Heroic). We are around 30th on our server, which I'm proud of considering our slow start and how far we have come as a guild.

The debate was whether the guild would be better to reroll as Horde, due to better racials, in order to work our way into ranking among the first guilds on the server to down Icecrown when it is released. The debate was very theoretical in nature as this is not the course of action we will take, but it was a fun debate.

The first part of the debate was whether the Alliance or Horde have better racials. I think the Horde have the better racials for most DPS specs, but tanking and healing it is a toss-up.

The second part of the debate is whether or not the current Horde guilds have more success at end-game raiding compared to Alliance guilds. This is debatable. Of the top 100 US guilds on WoWjutsu, 55 guilds are Alliance, which is not conclusive either way. Our server is lead by an Alliance guild, but 7 of the Top 10 are Horde guilds. Without spending a lot of time and effort, this is difficult to quantify.

The third part of the debate is, if there is a noticeable difference in success between Horde and Alliance in favor of the side with better racials, is it due to racials or due to a type of person that tends to seek out that side. There is no real way to quantify this. I believe that there is a combination of the two at work for some guilds. I believe that if one side has better racials, the types of people who want to min/max seek that side that has the better racials. Those same type of people would have success regardless of side, but the racials help to take them an extra step. This is all theory and depends on a lot of things to be accurate.

The final part of the debate was that, if it is the case that players who min/max seek out the side with the best racials, would they be available for recruitment? My guess is that someone who is a quality player who makes their character the best it can be will find a home in a guild.

I was curious what kind of fun discussion might pop up on these forums. Do you think that one side has superior racials or superior players? Is recruitment better on Alliance or Horde, in your experience?

blackhand
01-11-2009, 03:12 AM
I feel it's a grass is greener on the other side situation. You always want what you can't have, though I'm sure someone could produce some formula showing how either side has X amount better with z and y factored into it.

orcstar
01-12-2009, 07:00 AM
I like to play the good guys, I always did in any game, so I rolled horde :P:P (Or did I just ninja spawn another discussion?;-))

Krashtork
01-18-2009, 01:29 AM
Take a look at most of the top 10 guilds in the world you will find 6/10 are alliance. Horde does not have superior racial abilities. Arguably some are better than others for PvE, but each side has certain perks that are worth utilizing.

I would not reroll just because I think having +500hp from being a cow is going to make up the difference between a kill and a wipe. For tanks especially, I would suggest that the alliance racials are either equivalent or better. +dodge, +hit to group / self heal, +expertise with swords (Very nice in WoTLK so far), escape artist, and stoneskin. We get cow hp bonus and stomp, orc expertise bonus to axes (Not so great until [last laugh]) and a minor temporary AP boost, a fear break, a +haste (Lame for tanks), and an AoE silence (Pretty decent).

I would say that the differences are pretty slim, and even though I play horde (an Orc warrior), I still think that we are pretty even, or even that the Alliance may have one up on us overall.

jettzypher
01-18-2009, 05:21 PM
i dont think you should base your play style on your race. their too minute of factors to think about, way too insignificant imo.

if you all think you should reroll to another race just because X guild is best on server and they happen to be that opposite race, go for it...your account. all things are different from server to server though. one side sees better recruitment, one has better players, etc. race is more of a personal choice to alter your class slightly.

Windfury
05-18-2009, 09:42 PM
If I may say, this is a much more interesting conversation that many realize.

My response to this I believe is fairly intricate, however, I believe it starts when World of Warcraft first launched.
In the original World of Warcraft, it was not the racials that defined the success of a guild, it was the classes. During that era, there was a large and noticeable ratio of Alliance guilds being on top of Horde guilds in PvE, (Horde apparently better in PvP). Paladins were the pure defining reason that lead Alliance Guilds to reign on top in the Original WoW.

Since I started Horde, I cannot fact check this, but at one point in time, Paladins were either able to Bubble to not die and Divine Intervention someone while that Di'ed person can rez another player in combat. Paladins for a long period of time were able to get 100% mana back on spell crits and Bubble another player to save them from Death, not to mention giving full wide raid buffs. Shamans could ankh, and give not always needed buffs to party, but that was about it.

During this time of Alliance dominating Horde with their -Alliance ONLY- skills (eg. Salvation, Kings, and Fear Ward) many established TOP guilds remained as they were until the Era of WoW changed when Horde got access to Paladins. Of course Blizzard finally nerfed 100% mana returns on crit heals shortly after this, and Shamans greatly buffed with Heroism and Bloodlust.

The fact's show, increased dodge from Night Elves is not better for tanking or even equal to the 5% increased staming from Taurens.
Any DPS whom rolls for Orc racials will have an extra Two minute trinket that gives either or both amazing Attack Power and Spell Damage for 15 seconds.
Troll Hunters have a much favoreable racial then Dwarf hunters at this time, considering the Best in Slot weapon is a Bow. Not to mention Berserking, an extra speed increased racial that is basically another extra trinket that can be used every three minutes for 15 seconds.


In conclusion, to say racials don't matter based on looking at the guilds at this point in time is irrelevant, Alliance had a greater start that maintained for 3 years; whearas this point in time Horde have been able to generally even the scales in a short 2 year span. This logic will most likely make sense to those people who have wiped to a boss at 1%, or saved a tank that had about 100 health left before he died. This is arguable but some of the best guilds in the world know everything counts. Which is the reason why you bring Flasks/Scrolls/Food/Pots/Regeants have specific classes and specs for overall raid effectiveness.

Windfury
05-18-2009, 10:12 PM
Would I reroll an entire guild from 1-80 or 55-80 for the extra edge? No

Not sure if Dranei aura is raid-wide if so, it beats all Horde Racials put together hands down. And once again Alliance have the favor from Blizzard.
If it's only Party wide, then yes Horde have the best racials.

Mecer
05-19-2009, 08:42 AM
The horde buffs are great for DPS, but lets be honest with each other. Racials that benifit healers and tanks are far more important in PvE than DPS based racials.

One could break down each of the races racials, and you can easily astertain that the Dranei racials beat all hands down. +1% hit is huge for tanks, freeing up additional itemization points for everyone effected (regardless of party or raid). Not to mention their single target heal thats scales with AP or SP. So just a tank himself gains an additional defensive cooldown, and can itemize for more stam/avoidance without worrying about +hit. That compared to 5% HP and an AoE stun (that is resisted by most raid mobs anyways), outshines the competition.

Undead get a fear breaker, wait so do humans but their's breaks all CC.

The bloodelf AoE silence, lost its effectivness after heroics where most mobs were immune to silence. Its main use now is a form of manaregen for casters.

1% Dodge that is not effected by diminishing returns is a very good racial as our gear becomes better. You are right saying its inferior to 5%HP, but its better than the remaining Horde tanking racials.

The reason that in classic alliance guilds outshown Horde guilds in almost all arenas is the combination of Fear Ward and Palladins. Fear Ward turned Ony into ezmode, allowing warriors to stay in deffensive stance and not learn the art of stance dancing something that remained untill late in BC. Palladins provide the best buffs in the game, period, and for all of classic they were only available to Alliance. When BC came around horde guilds that had struggled with what could be considered 'hard-mode' had the playing field balanced.

Horaxe
05-19-2009, 09:22 AM
I like to play the good guys

Good guys?

I think the less hurtful term is protagonists...

:P

Back on topic, I think the notion that there's a disparity between Allies and the Horde goes back to Vanilla: when Horde had Shamans, and Allies had Paladins. There REALLY was a difference back then. I raided end game with both, and it made a huge difference. Just getting Onyxia attuned as either faction was a big change. Now however, I don't know. I feel that there have been a lot of changes that have balanced a lot of issues out. I'm sure there is as you say, some equation that can prove one faction has a .00087% effectiveness advantage because of x and y, but really it's a race that seems just too close to call. As it stands however, I like the Horde. May not be the prettiest, but they get the job done.