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View Full Version : Lavanthor's Talisman Worth It?



Kahmal
01-09-2009, 11:32 PM
When this first dropped for me in Violet Hold I was overjoyed to see an updated Autoblocker, after using it I noticed....that the passive effect was Block Rating....not Block Value....so basically I'm really only getting use of this every 2 minutes while Shield Block is on a 1 minute CD...it's fun seeing how fat a Shield Slam crit you can get, but these days I'm really not as concerned with Block Value, we get loads of it now, Autoblocker bought SBV when it was harder to stack.

Okto
01-10-2009, 12:19 AM
It has it's uses, just like every other trinket you would use. But there are better. I use it for the SBR myself to boot up a weaker stat. Plus the the massive SS's on bosses is always nice

Turmoil
01-10-2009, 12:34 AM
It's not, perhaps, something you would use 24/7, although I have done in the past. However, shield block rating can be very nice to help smooth out incoming damage- especially in heroics where the easiest way of doing things is of course to AoE tank entire packs. I love stacking shield block rating on top of my normal avoidance, because my healers love it too.

nykken
01-10-2009, 01:03 AM
lavanthor's talisman gives more block value averaged out over time if you always stack it with shield block, and the cooldowns work out so you can. I mostly think of it as a fun trinket for lol-worthy high shield slams, just like my auto blocker and lucky coin from bc.

clavarnway
01-10-2009, 02:43 AM
I use it for some things. Heroics alot. Wear it for trash in Naxx too. Anything where they don't hit you quite as hard but you're getting hit more. Don't really use it for bosses though, I prefer the defense trinket from Naxx + either the Valor Medal or the stam trinket from Azjol'Nerub (I'm terrible with names).

Morgo
01-10-2009, 04:00 AM
It's absolutey godlike for tanking the little adds on sartharion+3drakes. They hit for around 1.1k, so with enough block value and high block rating, they do very little damage no matter how many you are required to tank. in general it's very good for any kind of aoe encounter, remember that blocks still proc damage shield, but especially mobs in AOE situations don't hit hard, so block rating reduces damage taken a lot, probably more than avoidance would, since you need far less block rating for 1% block than defense, dodge, or parry.

Pwidget
01-11-2009, 09:24 AM
Yeah its great for AoE, I wear it in heroics for the huge Shield Slams.

Kazeyonoma
01-12-2009, 11:43 AM
I use it for trash, for Offtanking and for grinding mobs. against a raid boss i rarely ever use it if i'm MT'ing it.

klor
01-12-2009, 11:46 AM
The only thing i wanted this trinket for was OTing on patchwerk to push my dps higher..then i realized Autoblocker was better for that purpose..so QQ :(

Oh and before you mock me tatt...it DID finally drop..after i no longer wanted it.. GG

hbombs
01-12-2009, 11:51 AM
i use this baby all the time. on any boss I basically cant die on (thaddius/gluth etc..)

for the tough bosses its always essence and dodge trinket.

Thwomp
01-12-2009, 12:31 PM
Addressing the trinket from the point of a paladin tank, it bridges the gap to block cap early on. I'm 1.2% avoidance away from being able to ditch it, and I'm quite excited about being able to put my essence of gossamer back on.

TomHuxley
01-13-2009, 12:14 AM
For AOE tanking, for trash, or bosses where you are going for threat over survival stats it's a pretty nice trinket. I bet I use mine 80% of the time in heroics and raids, but YMMV.

Kahmal
01-13-2009, 02:08 AM
I SBV increase every two minutes just seems dumb to me though, Auto-Blocker was amazing because it gave a large static SBV increase and then a huge one every 2 minutes.

Overall I might say The Auto-Blocker still outperforms it, yet I find the need to stack SBV like that outdated.

nykken
01-13-2009, 08:23 AM
The only thing i wanted this trinket for was OTing on patchwerk to push my dps higher..then i realized Autoblocker was better for that purpose..so QQ :(

I SBV increase every two minutes just seems dumb to me though, Auto-Blocker was amazing because it gave a large static SBV increase and then a huge one every 2 minutes.

Overall I might say The Auto-Blocker still outperforms it, yet I find the need to stack SBV like that outdated.

incorrect, you should time your lavanthor's with shield block and it ends up being better overall for damage than coren's or the auto blocker.

Tatt
01-13-2009, 08:26 AM
I will make fun of you if I want Klor :p

Belak
01-13-2009, 08:51 AM
I farmed for this trinket for 12 runs before I even saw the dog, and 14 before it finally dropped. I love this thing.

Personally, I find the dodge trinket to be good, but not nearly as OP as ye olde pocket watch. This trinket, on the other hand, increased my chance to block by nearly 33% (~15% -> ~20%), and vs anything but a hard hitting boss, that's very significant. I have a macro that links its use to shield block, which really does work like a mini-shield wall, giving ridiculous 3k+ blocks.

There are definitely better trinkets out there, but in its niche, I really don't think it can be beaten, even by the old autoblocker trinkets.

Kazeyonoma
01-13-2009, 10:13 AM
shield slamming someone in pvp for 8k right after a 5k shockwave crit = winsauce.

klor
01-13-2009, 02:29 PM
incorrect, you should time your lavanthor's with shield block and it ends up being better overall for damage than coren's or the auto blocker.

Please explain to me how 440 sbv for 20 seconds every 2 minutes (minus snb procs which is 3 shield slams with 440 extra sbv, netting you 1320 sbv over two minutes.) is better than 200sbv every 2minutes for 20secs plus 59 static (so 3 shield slams with 259extra sbv plus an extra 59sbv for 17 over the 2 minutes... which is 1003 net gained sbv... and if you add in the on use, you are up to 1780 sbv over 2 minutes.)

If you add in SNB procs, autoblocker blows lavanthor's trinket away for damage/threat on patchwerk oting.

The autoblocker is still better for damage and threat over the course of the 2 minute downtime of the trinket. The lavanthors is better for burst threat.

And yes, I am aware my math is a little sloppy, but you get the point.

frim
01-13-2009, 03:04 PM
Lavanthor: 440 sbv for 20 seconds. 2 min cooldown
Coin/Autoblocker: 59 passive sbv, 200 sbv for 20 seconds. 2 minute cooldown

Assume you link them both to Shield block, as people are suggesting in this thread, for maximum returns on both.

While SB + trinket up:
Lavanthor: 880 sbv
Coin/Autoblocker: 518 sbv

While SB is up but trinket is on CD:
Lavanthor: 0 sbv
Coin/Autoblocker: 118 sbv

While SB is not up:
Lavanthor: 0 sbv
Coin/Autoblocker: 59 sbv

Assuming imp Shield block, your rotation looks like this:


t=0 : SB + Trinket
t=10 : Trinket
t=20 : base
t=40 : SB
t=50 : base
t=80 : SB
t=90 : base
t=120: SB + Trinket

At time = 120 seconds, we repeat the cycle.

Average SBV over the 2 minute cycle is:
Lavanthor:
(880*10 + 440*10)/120 = 110 sbv

Coin/Autoblocker:
(518*10 + 259*10 + 59*80 + 118*20)/120 = 123.75

Granted, this ignores the extra damage you can get if your SSlams in the 20 seconds the Lavanthor is up crit, and it also ignores whatever defensive value the block rating gives you.

CORRECTION: Current values are correct. I had a typo that put the Coin/Autoblocker much lower than it should be

Tatt
01-13-2009, 03:07 PM
I agree with Klor that the autoblocker/coren's coin has more sustained BV thanthe new trinket, but the new trinket has a great deal more survivability built in (5% block)...over the course of a heroic let alone a raid 5% more blocks adds up a great deal.

Kazeyonoma
01-13-2009, 03:23 PM
you're neglecting the 1.3 modifier we get from Shield Mastery. that bumps up the Lavanthor to 1144 when shield block and modifier and just 572 when no shield block

and the GAB at 673 with sb and trinket up 336 without sb and 152 trinket down but sb up

and passive gab has 76 sbv.

so you'd have
lavanthor:
(1144*10 + 572*10)/120 = 143 sbv
and
GAB:
(673*10 + 336*10 + 76*80 + 152*20)/120 = 185 sbv

GAB/Coin wins.

frim
01-13-2009, 03:26 PM
Over the course of the 100 seconds that both trinkets are on cooldown, i agree that the Coin/Autoblocker give more SBV (0 < 59), however the boost that the Lavanthor gives is so great that in the course of the 120 second cycle, you get more SBV from it.

Because you are always looking for SnB procs and hitting SSlam as much as humanly possible, what matters is average SBV over the course of the 120 second trinket cycle, and Lavanthor gives you just under 20 SBV more than the Coin or the Autoblocker.

Of course nothing is stopping you from using a Lavanthor AND a Coin/Autoblocker! :)

frim
01-13-2009, 03:26 PM
you're neglecting the 1.3 modifier we get from Shield Mastery. that bumps up the Lavanthor to 1144 when shield block and modifier and just 572 when no shield block

and the GAB at 673 with sb and trinket up 336 without sb and 152 trinket down but sb up

and passive gab has 76 sbv.

so you'd have
lavanthor:
(1144*10 + 572*10)/120 = 143 sbv
and
GAB:
(673*10 + 336*10 + 76*80 + 152*20)/120 = 185 sbv

GAB/Coin wins.

Hum I did didn't I. Well there ya go

Tatt
01-13-2009, 03:28 PM
Ok let's expand the debate...if I have autoblocker, lavanthor's, and mirror of truth, which two trinekts should I equip for the most threat?

frim
01-13-2009, 03:45 PM
you're neglecting the 1.3 modifier we get from Shield Mastery. that bumps up the Lavanthor to 1144 when shield block and modifier and just 572 when no shield block

and the GAB at 673 with sb and trinket up 336 without sb and 152 trinket down but sb up

and passive gab has 76 sbv.

so you'd have
lavanthor:
(1144*10 + 572*10)/120 = 143 sbv
and
GAB:
(673*10 + 336*10 + 76*80 + 152*20)/120 = 185 sbv

GAB/Coin wins.


I think your math is wrong. But yea, while Coin/Autoblocker is better, but not 185 sbv, closer to 160.

Factoring in the +30% block value:
Lavanthor:
(880*1.3*10 + 440*1.3*10)/120 =
(1144*10 + 572*10)/120 = 143 sbv

Coin/Autoblocker:
(518*1.3*10 + 259*1.3*10 + 59*1.3*80 + 118*1.3*20)/120 =
(673.4*10 + 336.7*10 + 76.7*80 + 153.4*20)/120 = 160.87 sbv


Thats all fine and good because I can't get that stupid dog boss to spawn for me for the HVH achievements anyway ;)

klor
01-13-2009, 03:48 PM
That one is a bit harder due to the fact that it really involves your spec.

Mirror of truth offers ~1.83% crit. The proc itself is partial luck and partial due in part to your amount of crit. Saying you have roughly 10% crit, the trinket itself has a 10% proc chance, so one in every 100 gcds (should) proc it in theory. Luckily for us RNG leans both ways :)

I still run this trinket over lavanthors. The crit chance helps push me up close to 15% in a raid scenario as base, before adding in skill modified crit bonuses like Incite and SnB, etc.

Plus it helps keep my DW rolling. I never was a huge fan of a -dps- trinket that only offers a bonus when its off cd. Which is why i looked into gab versus lavanthor.

And thanks guys for doing the more indepth math.. i'm not the greatest at number crunching :)

Sedraxis
01-13-2009, 03:52 PM
What about GAB vs LAB for tankadins?

frim
01-13-2009, 03:52 PM
Bah. I knew that math didn't break. It was bothering me that factoring in that +30% shield block talent would change anything. It doesn't! That 1.3 factor just distributes out of the numerator and effects the whole average value independent of the talent or not.

I had a PBCAK error (Problem Between Chair and Keyboard) and couldn't enter numbers into a calculator apparently. The real calculation for Coin/Autoblocker without the 30% shield block is:

(518*10 + 259*10 + 59*80 + 118*20)/120 = 123.75.


Carry on :)

Kazeyonoma
01-14-2009, 10:17 AM
whoops you're right it's 160 not 183. O_o.

Kazeyonoma
01-14-2009, 10:19 AM
no no no, it does change things frim.

because when the trinkets are on CD.

When lavanthor trinket on use is blown and the remainder of the time passes, it gives NO beneficial SBV at all.

That's where the GAB makes up time, because it has a constant 59 just equipped. that's why you have to factor in the 1.3 because although for all of the other calculations (both trinkets popped, or just shield block or etc) they are on equal grounds so you can factor out the 1.3. but you can't factor out the 1.3 from the 59 because there is no equivalent in the Lavanthor scenario.

frim
01-14-2009, 01:51 PM
Oh for sure! That 59 passive is the crux of the argument and its what makes the older trinkets better. I only went through that exercise because I had no idea myself, and I wanted to find out.

But mathematically speaking, the distributive property always wins. If I multiply everything in a numerator of a fraction by a constant, then the resulting number that represents that fraction will be multiplied by that constant as well.

Check it yourself. Add in the corresponding terms to the Lavathor calculation that the GAB has.

(880*1.3*10 + 440*1.3*10 + 0*1.3*80 + 0*1.3*20)/120 =
(1.3*(880*10 + 440*10 + 0*80 + 0*20))/120 =
1.3*((880*10 + 440*10 + 0*80 + 0*20)/120) = 1.3*(110) = 143

GAB...
(518*1.3*10 + 259*1.3*10 + 59*1.3*80 + 118*1.3*20)/120 =
1.3*(518*10 + 259*10 + 59*80 + 118*20)/120) = 1.3*(123.75) = 160.87

frim
01-14-2009, 01:56 PM
I just think you probably had the same error I did.. punching numbers into a calculator ;)

I just copied and pasted your math line into google..

(673*10 + 336*10 + 76*80 + 152*20)/120 - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=(673*10+%2B+336*10+%2B+76*80+%2B+152*20)/120&btnG=Search)

Kazeyonoma
01-14-2009, 02:08 PM
yeh, calculator fail.

Zalmanusa
01-18-2009, 08:45 AM
I love using it at the start of a pull together with shield block and shield slam. :)