PDA

View Full Version : 15/5/51 obsession



Astemus
01-09-2009, 07:14 AM
I've been reading tankspot for a while now, and for the most part, it's been a valuable tool for me. I like to read about people's theories on different things including specs, rotations, and other non standard things.

However, it seems that everyone is obsessed with this deep wounds build. Honestly, I'd like to see all these WWS where the 100-200 dps increase made the difference between a wipe and a kill, or talk to your healers and ask if you doing more damage helped them heal you better with despite the extra incoming damage.

I love alternative specs, but when people are telling new tanks and others asking for a standard tank spec that 15/5/51 is the standard and the only spec a warrior should be, it really annoys me.

Listen, your tanks. I know it's fun to do damage too, but a build that sacrifices mitigation at all for more damage isn't a standard tank build. I am far from an expert but Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhxZVItrx0zidIzsGo) is more like the standard tanking spec, leaving 4 points to put into either imp spell reflect, puncture, or imp HS.

I'm sure that ciderhelm is a great tank, but think for yourselves. And let's discuss! That's what makes this site great.

Astemus
01-09-2009, 07:15 AM
Hopefully this deep wounds nerf will throw people back into thinking about other fun specs.

Raptin
01-09-2009, 07:24 AM
Well, I agree to most of what you said. I started using a Deep Wounds build a few weeks ago and I like it alot. I'm not a real numberchruncher, nor a more than average tank, but when I first hit 80 I had some issues with keeping aggro from those who came from TBC with good gear since I was only in WOTLK quest greens and blues. But now as my gear is slightly better, keeping aggro is easier and dealing a bit more damage just seems like the right thing to do.

Satrina
01-09-2009, 07:31 AM
What survival talent would you take in place of deep wounds and/or impale?

Warwench
01-09-2009, 07:32 AM
DW build is the only way a Warrior can keep up with the other 3 tank classes in damage/threat output.

Tanking isnt all about mitigating damage, threat plays a large role as well and prior to WOTLK agro was a non issue but with DPS regularly putting out 3-4K zone wide parses, threat is starting to be something we need to be aware of.

Is another 100-300 TPS allowing the DPS to kill something 30 seconds earlier worth it?.. in my mind yes. Warriors, even with DW lag substantially behind JK's, Pallys and even Druids in damage these days, a DW build helps close that gap.

It might not be right for you, perhaps most of your DPS are in the 1.5-2.5K range and your way out in front in threat, but I am finding putting out 3-4K TPS is barely enough some fights to maintain a good lead.. i often have some specific classes creeping up on me and while it's not an issue right now, i certainly dont want to take steps backwards in TPS generation while they are making gigantic leaps forward.

Your spec should advance with your gear, there is no 1 single spec you go into once you hit 80 that you stay in forever.. as your gear gets better and your survivability plateus you need to still be about to out threat the DPS who ramp up pretty quickly.

loquatious
01-09-2009, 07:34 AM
I used the spec before Cider posted it most of us simply read WWS reports and watch our incoming damage.

We allocate our points into the "must have" talents and decide what to do with the rest.
I went through all of BC with Puncture but dont need it anymore, I'm getting plenty of rage so I dump it.

Armored to the Teeth is proven to have better TPS/DPS returns than Cruelty so I take it before cruelty.

The ONLY Avoidance/survivability talents sacrificed are 3 points in shield block and 2 points in Spell reflect - thats all you get that the standard 15/5/51 doesent give you.

Show me a WWS where that saved anyones ass :) (except on malygos where many tanks will spec into imp SR).

Jorge
01-09-2009, 07:39 AM
I'm sure, Sartharion ignores the 3 additional % block I would have more with your (@OP) talent spec and just continues to burp 30k breathes in my general direction. No offense, but I choose my spec based on what encounter I will see that evening.
E.g. a typical Naxx evening will see only my highest threat spec, because my beloved fury warriors will pull up to 3k tps and more on some bosses.
Malygos P2 on the other hand is a good time for imp. spell reflect, which I don't need in Naxx.
Sure, in early gear stages, your healers will thank you for extra mitigation, but saying one spec is 'standard' for all situations is a bit narrow-minded.

Kilrum
01-09-2009, 07:52 AM
I thoroughly love the 15/5/51 for 3 distinct reasons.
The first, and admittedly least important reason, is being able to crank out some serious DPS (in comparison to TBC anyways).
Secondly, and tied into the first reason, using DW spec gives me an idea who is lacking and how badly when it comes to DPS for instances. At this point, I am finally seeing my DPS go back down to where it should be: at 4th, above the healer. Unfortunately, I am still seeing some groups (both PUGs and guild) in which I am at or near the top in terms of DPS (both overall damage and DPS throughout the instance).
Last, and certainly the most important to me, is that while doing quests (daily and regular), the ease which I can dispatch mobs makes this build invaluable to me.

I will agree that there are better builds for overall mitigation, but at this stage for me (I haven't even been in Naxx except for one stinking boss yet), the DW build is perfect, and until I reach end game content I see no reason to change.

Optimoos
01-09-2009, 08:00 AM
The way I see it is, I'm not dying on boss-fights due to incoming damage. Unless a healer dies, goes afk, or some other irregular circumstance, I am easily kept alive with the 15/5/51 build. Also, I keep in mind that I now have "oshit" buttons on a max 5min cd, and I use them very liberally to help my healers. These are all changes from pre-3.0 WoW.

Now, lets look at the other side of the equation - Thaddius, with a 5 minute enrage timer (as well as the lag mini-boss) is a dps intensive fight. As MT on this fight, I normally pull around 3000-3500 DPS, with anywhere between 5-10% of that being DW damage. Having taken Thaddius into enrage with 1-2% remaining more than once and having to pop all my CDs and hope to high hell that I get a dodge or two before he destroys me, my (along with everyone elses) DPS contribution is definitely significant.

Kilrum
01-09-2009, 08:06 AM
As MT on this fight, I normally pull around 3000-3500 DPS, with anywhere between 5-10% of that being DW damage.

One of these days I am gonna have to find out how MT's are generating that much DPS. The best I can muster on a consistent basis is 1400-1500, sometimes cranking out 1600 or so. If you're using the same build, or close enough as to make no real difference, how are you doing that?

~Luffie~
01-09-2009, 08:17 AM
One of these days I am gonna have to find out how MT's are generating that much DPS. The best I can muster on a consistent basis is 1400-1500, sometimes cranking out 1600 or so. If you're using the same build, or close enough as to make no real difference, how are you doing that?

He's talking about Thaddius. In that fight you get a huge boost in damage from those polarity charges when your raid stacks.

Bishoptwo
01-09-2009, 08:17 AM
He is referencing Thaddius. He may even be talking about 10 man. Keep in mind your DPS in a 10 man VS a 25 man can be significantly different, especially if your 10 man comp is more caster friendly. Adding in a feral druid, an arms warrior, and a DK will provide significant increases in your dps with extra bleed damage, the 10ish percent extra crit, etc.

I have noticed up to as much as a 300-500 DPS difference in my 10 man VS 25 man damage in certain fights, Patchwerk being one that comes to mind.

JackDanielz
01-09-2009, 08:20 AM
high expertise/hit and good knowledge of when to use what ability makes a significant difference.
But to stay on topic: Choosing the "right" talents makes a difference. too.

It's called the standard spec as most bosses are not really able to kill you ( as mentioned above) - That this 15/5/51 is the best threat spec might sound like an annoying "Cider says it's best so let's stop thinking about anything else!", but there are no comparable talents available and it's proven to be superior to 8 points in fury so why bother about other specs, if this particular one gives the most of what we need the most ?

Taninor
01-09-2009, 08:22 AM
One of these days I am gonna have to find out how MT's are generating that much DPS. The best I can muster on a consistent basis is 1400-1500, sometimes cranking out 1600 or so. If you're using the same build, or close enough as to make no real difference, how are you doing that?

Because thadius charges your group like the first boss in Mechanar. When you stack your group, the charge stacks and buffs your damage. Everyone's dps is at least doubled.

P.S. BTW, my DW ticks account for account 12% of my damage on that fight. 5-8% on other boss fights.

Kilrum
01-09-2009, 08:26 AM
Thanks, thought I was doing something horribly wrong, and my apologies for hijacking the thread.

veneretio
01-09-2009, 08:27 AM
Listen, your tanks. I know it's fun to do damage too, but a build that sacrifices mitigation at all for more damage isn't a standard tank build. I am far from an expert but Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhxZVItrx0zidIzsGo) is more like the standard tanking spec, leaving 4 points to put into either imp spell reflect, puncture, or imp HS.
Here's the problem with your argument... you're just making the same spec with inferior dps.

Puncture and 5/5 Cruelty are worse damage than the Deep Wounds path. It seems that your big issue is how can I put together a reasonable Deep Wounds spec and have Shield Specialization maxed out. That's a good question. You probably can't, but moving the points from AttT to it may be a good route.

The nerf will likely just result in a different cookie-cutter spec tbh.

Bayho
01-09-2009, 08:28 AM
DW build is the only way a Warrior can keep up with the other 3 tank classes in damage/threat output.

Not sure about you, but I am pulling a consistent 6k TPS on bosses, with only five points in the Arms Tree. In 25-Man Naxx I am getting 1500 to sometimes 1600 DPS overall for a night, if I am the one tanking all of the bosses. But, it is of course nice to switching things up and get some other tanks in there. I asked in another thread, perhaps it is my play style? Personally, I do not see a great increase from Deep Wounds at all. I am also blessed with a guild that pumps out a metric shitton of damage, so I am more worried about making things easier on my healers. I guess it all depends on who you are an your situation, anyone heard that before?

Xav
01-09-2009, 08:29 AM
You don't lose anything relevant to pick up Deep Wounds. If an encounter is really just destroying your tank, you can respec for mitigation. Nothing right now calls for it if you have the gear.

The mitigation talents you can get if you drop DW are very minor, you already get all of the major ones in the spec.

Taninor
01-09-2009, 08:31 AM
I've been reading tankspot for a while now, and for the most part, it's been a valuable tool for me. I like to read about people's theories on different things including specs, rotations, and other non standard things.

However, it seems that everyone is obsessed with this deep wounds build. Honestly, I'd like to see all these WWS where the 100-200 dps increase made the difference between a wipe and a kill, or talk to your healers and ask if you doing more damage helped them heal you better with despite the extra incoming damage.

I love alternative specs, but when people are telling new tanks and others asking for a standard tank spec that 15/5/51 is the standard and the only spec a warrior should be, it really annoys me.

Listen, your tanks. I know it's fun to do damage too, but a build that sacrifices mitigation at all for more damage isn't a standard tank build. I am far from an expert but Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhxZVItrx0zidIzsGo) is more like the standard tanking spec, leaving 4 points to put into either imp spell reflect, puncture, or imp HS.

I'm sure that ciderhelm is a great tank, but think for yourselves. And let's discuss! That's what makes this site great.

This isn't an alternative spec, as you call it. I've seen this a few times already from people I know in game and people in my guild that have since found a new home. The game has changed, significantly, you have to change with it. Tanking isn't only about being a big damage sponge anymore, you're expected to contribute DPS. GC said in a post somewhere that they made these changed to make tanking more fun and that going forward they will design encounters with this in mind.

Add to the fact that if you've been clearing content for a while, like we have, your DPS is getting pretty damn well geared. Which in turn means that if they are worth a damn they are putting out some very good dps. I don't have a DPS in my raid putting out less than 3k, on some fights, like maly they get spikes to over 5k. Every threat building tool that we have should be used, the added damage is just a bonus.

Puncture, anger management, are just not needed in a raid enviornment where you are in endless rage situations. Hell I'm constantly just trying burn it, HS is never not queued.

At this point in content I think that this is the best everday build, you have fights like maly where you can use improved SR but honestly I don't and we one shot malygos damn near everytime.

Going forward in Ulduar we might need to reconsider this spec, but like i said earlier in this content it works great. Who knows what ulduar will bring.

Astemus
01-09-2009, 08:32 AM
Good points from everyone. I'm sure that the deep wounds spec works for alot of people who enjoy it, but my frustration comes from people pushing the 15/5/51 spec as the new required tank spec.

In my guild, we only do 10-man content, and while we have superb dps, I've never had agro pulled off me on a boss. Trash pulls are different, and I may lose a single to the fury warrior or maybe a couple to the mage, but shortly after they are dead because the reason they pulled is because they just got a great string of crits on a mob i only had aoe threat on.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodhoof&n=Astemus) in case anyone was interested. I'm pretty well geared, and recently switched some stam out for expertise because the healers seemed to be getting bored with me having over 28k hp. I have some decent gear and have never been in a situation where the DPS outgeared me by alot. These aren't standard situations though.

I agree completely that you should spec how you feel is best. 15/5/51 may be just the ticket for you. However, it's not the best spec for all tanks, and that's what I have an issue with. People come here for advice on tanking, and there are multiple ways they could go. But when they come for advice and 10 people all tell them spec for deep wounds, they think that is the way they're supposed to spec.

I have 2 points in spell reflect cause it's kinda fun to hit in some heroics where the whole group is taking a hit at once, and also provides 4% spell avoidance, which is also nice. I have 5/5 shield spec because the extra 3% block is more mitigation than nothing. Puncture is kinda lackluster and I'll probably drop it for imp HS at some point whenever i respec, but it's really not a big deal for me which is why I haven't changed it. These are the kinds of things that all people have to decide on their specs. Spec how you like.

Great responses again, I'm eager to hear what others have to say so I'll post this wall of text.

atlantusSC
01-09-2009, 08:36 AM
Look you can get DW and still have all the mitigation talents you want, just keep in mind that talents like 15/5/51 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00fZhbZVItrx0zidczsGo)

This lets you have all the good tanking talents and still reach DW. Stuff like Im Spell Reflect, Imp Disciplines, and Focused Rage are not must haves or sitiuational at best. I have tried a lot of different specs and have been sporting the 15/5/51 for a long time. I was even a fan of DW back in vanilla wow on into BC, but ended up dropping it for a other talents. With WotLK I have been able to pick it back and and I am enjoying it very much. I have noticed a big jump in my dps and tps with it in my spec. Compared to other tanks in our raid (as we rotate tanking duties) I put out more dps and tps on most all fights. So you do not have to sacrifice mitiagation to reach it just some crit % and 3 points of rage reduction, which you will not miss in a raid anyways.

Seriously the only time I have rage issues is in heroic 5 mans, but then I just sub out some gear for some dps gear and problem is sovled.

Just keep in mind there is always a way to get thing it is just what you are willing to sacrifice to get it. An for me it was easy to give up focused rage and 3% crit.

Oh for ref before DW i was putting out 1000 -1400 dps now I am putting out 1400-2000 dps. As far as tps not even close so yes you can have your cake and eat it too, for now. Just remember this all goes down hill if your melee lets a spore get too close on Loatheb, stupid debuff causing no threat at least the the damage output was great.

Playing with different specs is all apart of being a tank and you will always have to adjust your spec as you progress your character. If you are not constantly trying to tweak your tank to get better performance then you most likely should not be tanking as that is what it is all about and happens often going from encounter to encounter even on the same raid.

Not sure it helps but at least this is how I view it.

Ayne
01-09-2009, 08:37 AM
I tried it. It wasn't that big of a change from my previous spec to be honest, I had 16 points in Arms already (don't ask me why I had a point in Anger Management). I went to the posted 15/5/51 build and only saw a marginal upgrade in my overall dps, mainly because I already was running a DW build at the moment.

But the loss of Block and Dodge % just didn't feel right. I wasn't dieing anymore than normal, I wasn't taking huge increases in damage, and was having zero issues. But it didn't make me feel comfortable. And I think that, for me, thats the key.

A nervous tank is a bad tank. And that's how I would describe my feeling. I ran 15/5/51 for a day and the next day went and changed to a 12/5/54 build. I like it a lot, I don't have DW, but I have 2 points in cruelty. I also got the missed points back into Shield Spec and Anticipation. I feel better, I feel more secure, and yes, I am giving up some damage for a few points of avoidance. I am ok with that.

Bishoptwo
01-09-2009, 08:47 AM
You should never have lost dodge to get DW in the first place.

Astemus
01-09-2009, 08:48 AM
The game has changed, significantly, you have to change with it. Tanking isn't only about being a big damage sponge anymore, you're expected to contribute DPS.

Thank you for this, I think that this may be what I have been delusional about. I, and probably most people here, came from a world where you were spamming abilities to stay alive, staring at your health and watching for special abilites from the boss and hoping your pot would finish CD before it hit. Where TC and DS were only good for the debuff and were required for you to survive.

Pretty extreme situations basically, because no one remembers the encounters after you get them on farm status. Has tanking changed so much that we're just another fancy DPS to the grand scheme of things? Should we hold our tanks to the same kind dps requirements that we hold our main DPS force to? From what you guys are saying, that seems to be the case now.

Maybe I should try this way of thinking on for a week and see what the results are.

Stearns
01-09-2009, 08:52 AM
The OP brings up a great point. I'm often suprised at how conservative the wow community is - how little people think for themselves, and how blindly people are willing to follow (and worship) other players.

Glad that you are bringing up the real and practical benefits of specs, rather than jumping on the flavor of the month bandwagon.

If people talk about the "best build" then they missed the memo. If there was a "best build" blizzard would program it into the game and save us all the trouble and fun of playing with talents ourselves. Same with best tank class, best gear, best profession, best anything... It's a multiplayer game so a tremendous amount depends on the other players in your group.

Having said that just generally, I have no trouble with mitigation, and with more heath, dodge and armor than I know what to do with, Im going to work on upping my damage, because I do believe damage is now more a part of tanking than in the past. I play a druid and I notice my warrior & pally friends' damage is consistently a lot lower in the same raids, performing the same tanking roles. So I do think there's a place for tanks to up the damage. The bottom line is that if we ran with 3 druids instead of pally, druid & warr, we'd clear farm content a lot quicker.

As a tank who tops the tank damage charts, I love it! We're no longer forced to use a particular tank class. Wouldnt it be generally awesome if tanks had to work on improving their damage, or they dont get a raid invite? I get bored when the game stays the same year in year out, and so do Blizzard. Players on the other hand, tend to want things to stay the same. Some druids are living in 2006, judging gear choices by effective time to live or other metrics I believe to be outdated. Then mouthing off to Blizzard that they dont understand tanking. The sheer arrogance, if nothing else. What if... god forbid... things are different now?

This philosophy is entirely my perspective, based on the real experience I have with the people I run with. It is not supposed to be absolutely true for everyone. But I'm sure its true for a lot of people.

veneretio
01-09-2009, 08:55 AM
The OP brings up a great point. I'm often suprised at how conservative the wow community is - how little people think for themselves, and how blindly people are willing to follow (and worship) other players.
It's not conservative. It's respecting that someone else has put more time, thought and especially testing into a build. Most "free thinkers" in wow community just end up walking around with grossly inferior builds. Even those of us that end up with strong builds that are new inevitably adopt the existing concepts first then build upon them.

Nez
01-09-2009, 09:00 AM
You could also say that higher DPS from a tank is really a form of mitigation, boss dies faster, you take less damage overall :D

okokk j/k


I like the DW build simply because it IS increased damage, and as stated several times above, I'm not really missing anything that will make any meaningful reduction in my damage intake. I generally tank everything in threat/SB gear as it is anymore.

Inaoe
01-09-2009, 09:06 AM
The thing is, we have the choice now. Before WotLK we had no real choice to take different specs. Those who like it can take it now without loosing much or anything at all. Personally I also like to have imp. spell reflect and 5/5 shield block. I tried the 15/5/51 but I'm 12/3/56 atm and collecting Emblems and Gear for a real dmg spec when the dual spec feature goes live. ;) But if I ever run into trouble holding agro I'll probably spec back into DW, who knows. ;)

Stearns
01-09-2009, 09:28 AM
veneritio - my point was not denying some people know more than others; my point is that most people follow the crowd like sheep, or just make random choices based on no particular evidence or research. But that if there was an ultimate anything, the game would loose its depth and complexity. You cant promote a build outside of the context of the 24 other people in your group, who's gear and builds are also changing.

Personally I'm all about elitism and playing extremely well. But a sign of a really great leader is that they show other people how to think for themselves. Most people dont want to think for themselves period, so if you can inspire them to do that, you've accomplished a lot. A lot of weak players are only too happy to follow the rockstar who says "my way is the best" (and the rockstar loves all the attention).

Optimoos
01-09-2009, 09:36 AM
One of these days I am gonna have to find out how MT's are generating that much DPS. The best I can muster on a consistent basis is 1400-1500, sometimes cranking out 1600 or so. If you're using the same build, or close enough as to make no real difference, how are you doing that?

While everyone has already pointed out that Thaddius is giving a damage buff, I used it as an example because the enrage timer is sometimes hard to meet. An alternative example would be Patchwerk, although less relevant to meeting enrage timers, this fight yields close to unlimited rage and provides no damage buff, and I average 2200-2500 dps on this fight. Less rage, less dps, but I'm normally able to pull off 1800 dps regardless of the situation.

loquatious
01-09-2009, 10:01 AM
veneritio - my point was not denying some people know more than others; my point is that most people follow the crowd like sheep, or just make random choices based on no particular evidence or research.

In the absence of personal knowledge, most of which can only be obtained with lots of experience or research and a deep understanding of game mechanics the best way to spec is to steal the ideas of really smart people.

Deep wounds is a pretty easy decision for experienced knowledgable tanks, we dont need much convincing once we read a WWS parse and see that It produces. But as an example i'm leveling my Alt Shaman - I dont spend hours and hours researching resto shaman so you know how i'm going to spec? Yep I'm going to go read elitist jerks, look up the specs of 5-6 really good shaman healers, talk to a few friends with experience and bingo - my spec will probably be 95% optimal with almost no effort on my part. Am I a Sheep or just smart enough to know what I dont Know?

Xav
01-09-2009, 11:02 AM
I tried it.

But the loss of Block and Dodge % just didn't feel right.

It boggles me to think how someone can look at a template of a spec, and still get it wrong.

You lose a few block %, which is extremely minimal. That's it.

I'm completely in agreement though with the people who are concerned that there aren't enough free-thinkers. There's nothing wrong with trying different things, as long as it's within reason, and you provide some data/proper reasoning for something.

I certainly wouldn't want someone to go around saying "HELO I WAN U 2 KLOOK AT MY 0/0/73 PROTECTION SPEC CUZ I THINK ITS THE BEST THING RIGHT NOW!" and then pull out the "free thinking" card when told they're an idiot.

Rak
01-09-2009, 11:10 AM
Think about it this way. On any of the bosses in the game right now, would you rather take a tank who has gear which provides 3% more block rating, or 10% more damage, all other things being equal?

I'd take the one with 10% more damage, because it is going to make a bigger difference.

Ceravantes
01-09-2009, 11:18 AM
While everyone has already pointed out that Thaddius is giving a damage buff, I used it as an example because the enrage timer is sometimes hard to meet. An alternative example would be Patchwerk, although less relevant to meeting enrage timers, this fight yields close to unlimited rage and provides no damage buff, and I average 2200-2500 dps on this fight. Less rage, less dps, but I'm normally able to pull off 1800 dps regardless of the situation.

The only thing that should trouble you in making Thaddius's timer is people dying.

Myzery
01-09-2009, 12:09 PM
15/5/51 is the most fun! Don't knock it till you've tried it.

If I had more points, they'd probably go into more block % or Cruelty.

Imp. Spell reflect is fun too, but entirely situational. For Malygos, you want max DPS as MT. If I wasn't MT for Maly, I'd respec Fury instead of Imp. SR.

Stearns
01-09-2009, 12:43 PM
Hi Ven - appreciate your comments, I utterly agree with them all. I'm talking about a high end where all you have to go on is your own independent research. Why? Because no one else is pushing the edge the way your group is. Sorry if this discussion wasnt aimed at that level, but I like this thread because it started with an encouragment to think for yourself. Im levelling a prot warr at the moment too, and I do exactly as you describe, of course, because its an alt I play for chillout purposes, so I dont care too much about his progress. But on my main, there are just no great leaders out there I should follow, because it's all too specific to the group I run with. So I have to find out for myself. I dont think many players reach that point in the game themselves - they still look for answers from others, and believe one size should fit all.

Tarkonn
01-09-2009, 02:19 PM
I tend to agree that the DW build isn't the be-all end-all of tanking. It's a good build, and works for some folks.

I personally have had 0 problems with single target aggro in raids, and I've favored a spec more based on AOE threat than single target threat:

(5/13/53)

My main focus for the build is that any warrior with half a brain can keep single-target threat on a boss fight by facerolling across the keyboard. The pain in the butt area where we always have to work to keep up is in multi-target pulls. Enter the Improved cleave spec. When you're glyphed correctly on this build, you can single target tank with your AOE rotation and never drop aggro in heroics/trash pulls, and it really makes things much easier for you as far as focusing on mitigating damage and whatnot to keep your healers happy. In raid content, you can hold AOE aggro on roughly 2-3 trash pulls at a time as long as you're keeping vigilance up on your top AOE class. Who needs a pally?

All in all, I see about 1300-1500 dps for overall data, and about 1100-1200 for single target fights. Nothing amazing, but it gets the job done. I have the luxury of being able to blow through 5-man content like a pally, trash pull like a pally, and still blow pallys away on single-target tanking as well. I've tried the DW spec, or "impale" spec that is so popular across this particular forum, but I honestly have a much easier time rolling with my own spec, and encourage anyone who wants to deviate from the norm to do so, since the best part about tanking is that there is no single spec that is the best. :cool:

CKaz
01-09-2009, 02:21 PM
It's not conservative. It's respecting that someone else has put more time, thought and especially testing into a build. Most "free thinkers" in wow community just end up walking around with grossly inferior builds. Even those of us that end up with strong builds that are new inevitably adopt the existing concepts first then build upon them.

The OP wasn't talking about radical departures though, he's arguing against a specific build being THE build or bust. This is a community that is posting for eachothers benefit - as you say, no one individual drove this full evolution. It's chatter here and EJ that's molded it, testing happens, parsing goes on, some conclusions fall out.

It's deliberation, and yes, even this OPs post, that gets us to kick up the dirt. I posted about DW when we still weren't sure it fired off of Damage Shield, TC and Shockwave... it did and it got more interesting.

So I'd disagree with the 'free-thinker' comment above in regards to the community here. I've found this community terrific - Warwrench had a great Protection thread, and a lot has come out of it, too. I like to think I helped with DW thoughts pushing them early, mostly because I have more time to theorycraft than play lately :p

Even the '15/5/51' has variation, there's arguments for Imp Rend if you have the rotational constitution for it, and IMO I think it'd be ridiculous for someone to suggest '15/3/53' is gimped. I agree with the OP that there does seem to be the tendency to 'pile-on' to the current reigning spec.

I suppose its a bit like Red and Blue states - some couldn't stomach the idea of going out and getting DPS to add to a Prot Tank, but adherence to it 100% is extreme as well - a quality baseline and benchmark tho, yes.

Too much is changing too fast to get overconcerned about a specific build - case in point, DW is changing shortly, and we'll see what, if any, evolution is necessary.

Scargoth
01-09-2009, 02:22 PM
Before patch 3.0 a warrior tank had 2 jobs:
1. Hold threat
2. Stay alive

It does no good to raid if you cannot do both of those things successfully.

After patch 3.0 a warrior tank now has 3 jobs:
1. Hold threat
2. Stay alive
3. Dish out damage

I see a lot of tanks who are still stuck in the old mindset that a tank has no business caring about DPS. This really bugs me because it shows that they are failing to understand the changes that have happened to the class.

Evidence that DPS is now an important role for tanks:

-- Itemization on gear. Look at the shift in tank gear to have large amounts of STR. Look at the adjustment in the STR:SBV ratio from 20:1 down to 2:1, this means that we are supposed to get a large chunk of our block value through our higher STR.

-- Talents. With 3.0 we gained so much that helps our DPS. 15% more crit chance for HS, Cleave, TS, Dev, and SS. We gain a damage shield, we gain a frontal cone AoE damage attack.

-- Threat from abilities was totally redesigned. Remember all of those abilities that we used to rely on because of some hidden amount of high threat that was built in? We lost most of that, but what we have gained instead is more abilities that are linked directly to our AP. Instead of high threat baked in, now we have high damage that scales up with gear.

It's hard to understand why some people still ignore all of this evidence and cling to the idea that tanks shouldn't care about their DPS. With all of that being said, any good tank that fully understands the roles they play will design talent builds that best balance out those roles.

There is a point that can be reached right now with existing gear and content where you no longer need to stack any more "stay alive" stats. The existing content is relatively easy and a lot of people have reached and surpassed the minimum gear that is required. When you've mastered your ability to "stay alive" then all that is left is threat and DPS.

Thanks to the threat mechanics redesign, our threat is now directly tied to our ability to DPS. There is no upper cap on DPS, more is always better for all classes. This is why you see so much emphasis on talents like DW, because you only have to make small sacrifices in mitigation (which you shouldn't need) in order to gain so much more in DPS.

Kaziganthi
01-09-2009, 02:32 PM
I'm at 12/5/54 atm I just cant see myself dropping any points for the three more points for DW, perhaps the points in shield block but I dont like respeccing and I think I may be rage starved when doing heroics, I got the 500badge achievement so I really dont need badges so I suppose I could give it a try. But by the time I get back to being able to play my account again it'll probably be nerfed.

Hollowskin
01-09-2009, 02:37 PM
The only problem I see with 15/5/51 is not maxing shield specialization. I don't understand that. Sometimes threat is a little bit tight on Malygos on the first phase, however besides that, there's not much of a need for the extra few hundred threat. Even with my DK's forgetting to take off frost presence i'm still ahead on threat.

The DPS, i'm just not a big fan of. I personally couldn't care less about the minuscule DPS upgrade. That's the last thing on my mind as it should be everyone elses.

I tried respecing to 15/5/51 last night. I'm not seeing a huge difference. Respecing back as soon as the authentication servers are back up.

Kazeyonoma
01-09-2009, 02:49 PM
Good points from everyone. I'm sure that the deep wounds spec works for alot of people who enjoy it, but my frustration comes from people pushing the 15/5/51 spec as the new required tank spec.

In my guild, we only do 10-man content, and while we have superb dps, I've never had agro pulled off me on a boss. Trash pulls are different, and I may lose a single to the fury warrior or maybe a couple to the mage, but shortly after they are dead because the reason they pulled is because they just got a great string of crits on a mob i only had aoe threat on.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodhoof&n=Astemus) in case anyone was interested. I'm pretty well geared, and recently switched some stam out for expertise because the healers seemed to be getting bored with me having over 28k hp. I have some decent gear and have never been in a situation where the DPS outgeared me by alot. These aren't standard situations though.

I agree completely that you should spec how you feel is best. 15/5/51 may be just the ticket for you. However, it's not the best spec for all tanks, and that's what I have an issue with. People come here for advice on tanking, and there are multiple ways they could go. But when they come for advice and 10 people all tell them spec for deep wounds, they think that is the way they're supposed to spec.

I have 2 points in spell reflect cause it's kinda fun to hit in some heroics where the whole group is taking a hit at once, and also provides 4% spell avoidance, which is also nice. I have 5/5 shield spec because the extra 3% block is more mitigation than nothing. Puncture is kinda lackluster and I'll probably drop it for imp HS at some point whenever i respec, but it's really not a big deal for me which is why I haven't changed it. These are the kinds of things that all people have to decide on their specs. Spec how you like.

Great responses again, I'm eager to hear what others have to say so I'll post this wall of text.

wait, not to be offensive but you claim you want to maximize your ability to survive encounters... but you just dropped stamina gems for expertise gems. Don't get me wrong expertise helps your survivability somewhat from parry gibs, but stam is a more sure fire way of doing it.

So if you're saying your tanking situation is so easy right now that threat isn't an issue, and healing isn't an issue because you have SOOO much stamina, then why not upgrade your DPS? why not drop that boss down a few seconds faster, contribute to the meters more, or better yet, weed out that slacker dps who shows up BELOW you on the damage meters.

I'm sorry but that's hypocritical to say that "we're tanks guys, we are here to survive" and then drop stam for a primarily threat stat.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00fZhZMItrg0zidIzsGo) here's a build that has imp spell reflect, and if you don't care about your OP threat so much, drop incite it's just extra crit, drop revenge it's just extra damage, and drop gag order it's just extra shield slam damage.

Astemus
01-09-2009, 04:03 PM
Actually my point is really just to get people to offer a more open spec to people looking for the basic tanking spec, instead of pushing the latest "fad" onto tanks who may not know better. As many people have said, you should find what works for you in your particular gear and group rather than just doing whatever ciderhelm tells you. Again, I'm not here to point fingers but rather to get people thinking about other spec options.

I love the other suggestions on here, and keep on thinking outside the box.

Astemus
01-09-2009, 04:06 PM
wait, not to be offensive but you claim you want to maximize your ability to survive encounters... but you just dropped stamina gems for expertise gems. Don't get me wrong expertise helps your survivability somewhat from parry gibs, but stam is a more sure fire way of doing it.

Since I'm a JC'er, and I have alot of extra gems of non-red color, I have the luxury of switching my gems on a whim. I had 10 expertise and noticed alot of dodges/parries, so i thought I'd try it out. Most likely I'll switch back, but that's what makes this game fun, right? Trying it out for yourself.

Lightmgl
01-10-2009, 12:22 AM
15/5/51 is required by me to put out the 6k-7k+ base sustained TPS that is required to hold off of the DPSers in our guild in some of the really crazy short fights we do like Patchwerk and Faerlina and the amped damage fights like Thaddius and Malygos. Any deep wounds nerf could potentially require our DPSers to start holding back in fights whereas right now they do not have to depending on how much of a hit it is.

Deep wounds is also a significant increase in passive aoe TPS. It was Blizzard that put us in this situation to begin with. They should have taken a better look at prot threat in the long run vs fully geared up raiders instead of deciding that we have a ton of it at the heroic level and just forgetting about it. People began looking for ways to maximize threat like in the old days and we landed on deep wounds as a necessary tool to push kill speed further.

I feel worse for paladins though. They are eating a much larger TPS hit right now. It will probably knock them down lower then warriors in single target. For the crazy guilds it will all come down to threat over mitigation. As long as the tank can survive the encounter well he doesn't need more mit but if the dps cannot go all out from the moment you pull the tank will not be viable for that guild.

Warriors without impale and deep wounds in their current state simply would not do enough threat for us. Its why our DK has been benched from boss fights. His mitigation is godly but he just can't keep up with our top dps. Just remember its not about threat when you get there, it is also about threat once your entire guild has every drop they need and are doing way more dps.

Tarkonn
01-10-2009, 02:31 AM
How many specs have you experimented with?

Dreg
01-10-2009, 04:32 AM
Actually my point is really just to get people to offer a more open spec to people looking for the basic tanking spec, instead of pushing the latest "fad" onto tanks who may not know better. As many people have said, you should find what works for you in your particular gear and group rather than just doing whatever ciderhelm tells you. Again, I'm not here to point fingers but rather to get people thinking about other spec options.

I love the other suggestions on here, and keep on thinking outside the box.

You speak as though that is the only build on these forums, honestly its kind of rude to say we are all blindly following cider. did you ever consider that after tons of theory and testing of many different builds that we came to the conclusion that this was the best one (some even before cider).

Cider did not choose this build for the community, we did. sure some may have just jumped on the band wagon, but its a very solid build and they would do it no matter what the build is. some people enjoy theory, others do not if most of the community says something is good, they will take it because they just want to play the game. Not every one wants to fiddle with there spec for 3 weeks to find one that works.

Miniki
01-10-2009, 05:41 AM
Since no one else has posted it yet, here's a link to Veneretio's great post on tanking and spec experimentation:

A guide to Specs and Experimentation - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/12/26/a-guide-to-specs-and-experimentation/)

You can take pretty much any class in the game and you will find a cookie-cutter spec that that is highly common. Why? Just based on the way the game works, certain talents will be more beneficial for classes than others. There's generally a core set of talents that are pretty much required to perform your class role well. These are found based on theory crafting and in game experience. It's the marginally effective talents where people generally mix and mash to find their own sweet spot.

For example, TBC, a lot of tanks had Improved HS. I never cared for it and never had it in my talent tree. Did that makes me a bad tank? No, just like not having Deep Wounds won't make you a bad tank now. Will it make you less effective, not having DW? Slightly, based on the general current consensus. If you aren't having threat/survival issues, why not maximize your dps? There's a reason certain talents (like Safeguard) aren't common in many tank builds. It's not because "the cool tanks" don't use them, it's because their effectiveness in game is less than other talents where you can place those two points.

Being different just to be different is silly. If dps is criticizing your talent build, run with different dps. Your group should only be concerned with: can you hold aggro and is your health/armor/avoidance ok?

Tristessa
01-10-2009, 08:13 AM
I asked the exact same question last week, and it seems that the only logical reason NOT to take the DW spec is if you are MT, and find yourself sorely needing the damage mitigation.

I've tried the DW spec since my last thread in this sub-forum, and I can definitely see the difference in DPS especially since I was grouped with another better-geared warrior tank specced for mitigation. While trying heroics afterwards, there was nearly no difference to my tanking performance. While my group did wipe a few times, I attributed it to a temporary lapse of judgment and inappropriate gearing on my part.

A hard pill to swallow, this, since it's quite a "big" paradigm shift away from TBC thinking.

loquatious
01-10-2009, 09:26 AM
I wish folks would not refer to the DW spec as not being a mitigation spec, the ONLY talent you pass up is 3% shield block - what you give up is Improved spell reflect and odd little support talents.

Gnurken
01-10-2009, 09:40 AM
I tried 15 / 5 / 51 for a while and deep wounds is nice for dps while tanking I switched to a 5 / 15 / 51 now to get a max utility / mitegation spec. Buffing my shout with around 600hp is very nice for maxing out for 3-drakes.

Lightmgl: Don't forget that on Patchwerk you get a threatbonus from him, it should be impossible for dps to catch up after a short while. We just missed the 3 min kill with 3 seconds this week in 25mans and noone were near the tanks on threatmeter.

Granted that Malygos can be a problem, and we never tried for the 5min kill, I just don't need DW-spec to stay ahead on threatmeter, it was fun to try DW, but I don't need it.

Tarkonn
01-10-2009, 11:14 AM
Interesting little feed here, straight from the blues' mouth:

We are talking about nerfing Deep Wounds. We haven't done it yet. The reason for the nerf has entirely to do with dps warriors, though we realize it will affect some tanks.

On the one hand, we don't want to nerf Prot's threat generation or dps. On the other hand, we don't want Deep Wounds to be the only way Prot can have good threat generation or dps. I'm not announcing any changes here, only our thought process.

Seems even Blizz likes the idea of not making DW the be-all end-all.

Tarkonn
01-10-2009, 11:37 AM
Also:
Q u o t e:
Ghostcrawler this nerf will hurt most warrior tanks too.
It will hurt a lot of them, though honestly their dps seems pretty decent and nobody is having trouble on threat. We will compensate Prot if we need to. Deep Wounds should not be a "mandatory" talent for Prot, though honestly this conversation did not start because of Prot.

Dreg
01-10-2009, 12:58 PM
DWs was never the only way for warriors to keep aggro, however it was a great way to supplement and increase our threat and damage. you're taking those posts out of context.

DWs is not necessary but it is a very nice buff, most of the people who have DWs could hold aggro with or with out it. but why not increase your damage as much as you can?

Lightmgl
01-10-2009, 02:49 PM
Our mage has definitely pulled Patchwerk aggro before at 130% -_-. He puts out around 10k-11k TPS during the early portions of the fights when he blows all his cooldowns. Hes really strange, he does more DPS then any mages I've seen in any WWSes with whatever the hell he does.

I need my supplements for him mostly. The hunter who matches him can FD so it is not an issue. Theres a few people creeping up on the 6k DPS mark in standstill fights who can also pull off me if I get unlucky. Like I said though this is an extreme circumstance, but I need every little threat boost I can get so these guys can unload from the second we pull the boss.

Threat was never a problem until our DPS finished getting all the loot they needed and decided to start pushing for top speed kills like doing Gluth before decimate even lands. What really concerns me about this is it shows a potential scaling problem in the future. It all depends how large of an upgrade they throw the DPS compared to the tanks each tier though.

Gnurken
01-10-2009, 02:56 PM
What is gonna happen in the next tier when the DPS continue to scale up faster then my threat again.

Simple, back to "wait for 5 sunders" tactic as we had back in Molten Core :)

Blizz have said that they expected scaling issues and that they were watching it but we shouldn't expect to be ahead so much on threat later on. Seems you already hit it.

Please post a WWS where that mage does so much threat.

Lightmgl
01-10-2009, 03:02 PM
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/yb6sp55kx51ey?s=433945-462955)

See Patchwerk, Thaddius, Gluth, and Razuvious for an idea of our standstill non aoe dps. He consistently puts out that level of DPS and he swears the patch is going to buff it even higher because of some trick he can do with arcane blast. We had to use the Paladin tank that night cause I was offspec seeing how miserable arms was compared to fury with equal gear. Boy was that one a laugh.

Obviously the 10k-11k TPS isn't the whole fight, its just cooldown burst and heroism burst. It really does spike up that high though, it is scary. We don't like waiting either. If one class can snap aggro without a DPS delay he is the one that is gonna be tanking every boss.

Muffin Man
01-11-2009, 01:26 AM
Lightmgl: Don't forget that on Patchwerk you get a threatbonus from him, it should be impossible for dps to catch up after a short while. We just missed the 3 min kill with 3 seconds this week in 25mans and noone were near the tanks on threatmeter.

I'm not Lightmgl but I feel I should remind you that the point of 15/5/51 wasn't to stay ahead in threat. The thinking was, we're at a point where we can survive any encounter, dps isn't threatcapped. What else is there to do? Do more damage!

DW is very poor for threat, there's no baked in threat. I would even guess that there are no stance multipiers, although this is based on intuition and no testing whatsoever.

You know, it's funny that you mentioned fast kills... the tank can contibute a whole lot to that. Just today I was commenting to a friend that I've *never* failed to kill Loken in under 2 minutes for the achievement (even though I've lost party members in a few of those kills). Looking at recounts: 1600 dps on Loken probably has something to do with that.

Earlier today I did a timed run, 1700 dps on the Infinite Corrupter to beat the timer with just 15 seconds left. Having a tank that can really rip out the damage is quite a luxury. I understand that in a 25 man raid the tank to dps ratio dillutes the tank contribution.


I tried 15 / 5 / 51 for a while and deep wounds is nice for dps while tanking I switched to a 5 / 15 / 51 now to get a max utility / mitegation spec. Buffing my shout with around 600hp is very nice for maxing out for 3-drakes.

I also get that when I'm running as the only Warrior buffing shouts is a better choice. Since raid wide you'll get more benefit in dps. And even gain some survivability for the tanks (if you pciked improved demo too).

After all, different specs for different situations =].

Rogdu
01-11-2009, 03:35 PM
Is the 3% crit from cruelty that important. I try and run with a 15/3/53 build that still gives me DW, Impale and all of Shield Spec. Sure I lose the 3% crit, but there are enough talents in Port to give crit to my abilities, will the 3% be that big of a difference instead of 3% block?

Foolishness
01-11-2009, 05:02 PM
What about an impale spec with no deep wounds. Imaple adds a significant ammount to your DPS without deep wounds, and half the reason your doing more DPS with deep wounds, is because you also have impale.

Impale still allows you to take those extra 3 points, which many would feel comfortable putting in shield spec.

Astemus
01-12-2009, 06:54 AM
What about an impale spec with no deep wounds. Imaple adds a significant ammount to your DPS without deep wounds, and half the reason your doing more DPS with deep wounds, is because you also have impale.

Impale still allows you to take those extra 3 points, which many would feel comfortable putting in shield spec.

I'm actually going to try out this idea for naxx this week. The main idea behind this spec I think is to maximize your crit by taking 5/5 cruelty. 12/8/51 is what I'm gonna try out. I've also socketed for hit/exp to cap them both out as more of an experiment than anything else.

I truly gave DW spec a try this weekend. Maybe I wasn't used to it, or dont have the right gear to take advantage of it, but I actually only noticed about a 100dps increase over my old spec (1300 compared to 1200). This was of course not on raid bosses, just heroics. Granted, it was an increase, i also felt the loss of the block as less survivability while soloing or attempting my old school solos. I'm gonna try the impale spec this week and if i'm sufficiently impressed enough to give up more block, I'll try DW next week. But honestly, I don't respec between raids because I tend to enjoy the slowly survive them to death playstyle. And if the spec doesn't work for me when I'm not raiding, then it doesn't work for me. Not when I can just swap on some dps gear when I want to do more dmg. Which is alot cheaper than respeccing.

And thanks for the link to the tankingtips.com site, i had seen it before but i had totally forgotten about it. Great stuff there.

Delaroche
01-12-2009, 08:28 AM
3 points in DW vastly outperforms 3 in cruelty.

How exactly did you feel the loss of 3% block? You noticed that out of numerous low level mobs eventually hitting you, you took slightly more damage? Really? Additionally DW would have killed the mobs quicker: ergo less damage intake.

Sandal
01-12-2009, 09:35 AM
What about an impale spec with no deep wounds. Imaple adds a significant ammount to your DPS without deep wounds, and half the reason your doing more DPS with deep wounds, is because you also have impale.

Impale still allows you to take those extra 3 points, which many would feel comfortable putting in shield spec.

If I look at my last night in nax tanking patchwork DW accounted for 8% of my dmg (@2100 dps, poor equip atm :(). 3% more block would have resulted in ~4 additional blocked strikes which is nothing on over 500k damage taken over the course of the fight. Bad trade imho. Not even calculating hits patchwork could not deliver because he was dying faster.

If you "feel" loosing 3% block you should watch at reports and compare them. Feeling is highly subjective, if you want something to be missing you will miss it.

Khue
01-12-2009, 12:03 PM
My spec schema has always been adapted to my guild's style of play and what compliments their abilities and promotes our success. That being said, I have never felt the pressure to stretch myself into a role that requires me to be concerned with not only calling out situational commands, mitigating damage, creating opportunities for success, maintaining threat, on top of pushing myself to add 300-500 dps to my own counts. In 10 man raid content, my top three guys push out an average of 2600dps. My bottom 2 are hovering around 2100. I push about 1k and my ot pushes 1200. At the end of the day we are looking at between 14.2 and 14.9. Crunching the numbers, a boss mob with 3 million hp takes roughly 3 mins and 30 seconds to kill. Adding 500 dps to that value (going from the low end) from 14.2 to 14.7 takes that number down to 3 mins and 24 seconds roughly a 2.9% quicker kill. Correct me where I've made mistakes.

I am arguing that those numbers, at least from my experience are never really going to make or break a raid. That being said, there is no good reason that I can think of not to try and squeeze out a little bit more dps if you can. I am currently not spec'd as such, but if I ever got the itch to respec, I would probably definitely try something with the mix of dw.

Angry Grimace
01-12-2009, 12:42 PM
Hopefully this deep wounds nerf will throw people back into thinking about other fun specs.
There is no Deep Wounds nerf as of yet.

And the reason people do 15/5/51 is because it's better than those other specs for generalized tanking. 100-200 DPS IS important. The reason you can get away with it is because mitigation and survival is not difficult.

Conreeaght
01-12-2009, 01:02 PM
I've been resisting the fold for so long, but I'm giving in. The reasons I have resisted:

1. I have little trouble booming out threat. Honestly, I take my threat rotations very very seriously. I admit, ret pallies and careless mages come close, but as long as the boss is in my hitbox, I can put out serious threat.

Winning counter-arguement: Now I can put out more.

2. I didn't want to lose most of the prot tree as I was concerned with everything from rage generation to staying alive.

Winning counter-arguement: Some things I valued in the prot tree are quite useless. As soon as you get a raid-drop tank weapon, rage is not an issue.

3. Cruelty was always the threat increasing talent of yesteryear.

Winning counter-arguement: Now it's DW. You gotta get with the program and not be such a fossil.

Of course, my concern now, is that I'm probably going to be MT'ing malygos very, very, soon. the question is, what would I give up for the 2 in imp-reflect?

cudmaster
01-12-2009, 01:05 PM
Personally I take a point outta dodge, with all the dodge on gear and the dr, losing "1%" from the talent is actually something more like .5%... meh.

I think as gear gets better, we will see putting talent points into dodge & parry will become more and more worthless due to DR, and we will want to move those points into damage (read: threat) abilities, or see ourselves keeping talents where they are and wearing some dps gear to keep the warlocks from pulling agro and going squish.

Astemus
01-12-2009, 02:01 PM
Talent Chic's Raiding Warrior ratings

If these results are accurate, it's pretty clear what raiding warriors are doing. Also, i couldn't even find the DW build on that list, i had to switch to players who get their gear from mobs (read : BOE stuff) to even see the "best warrior tank build".

Of course, this could all be outdated info, but it does beg the question...

Satrina
01-12-2009, 02:08 PM
Their #1 build has Improved Disciplines in it (in fact, half of the 10 on that page do). That should tell you everything you need to know about that site.

Muffin Man
01-12-2009, 02:33 PM
Not to mention the abundance of Puncture...

Dakki
01-12-2009, 02:35 PM
Keep in mind that talent avoidance is NOT subject to diminishing returns. Nothing you can put a single point into is as good as 1% passive avoidance. Don't do it! ;p

veneretio
01-12-2009, 02:53 PM
Talent Chic's Raiding Warrior ratings

If these results are accurate, it's pretty clear what raiding warriors are doing. Also, i couldn't even find the DW build on that list, i had to switch to players who get their gear from mobs (read : BOE stuff) to even see the "best warrior tank build".

Of course, this could all be outdated info, but it does beg the question...
It's funny how this entire thread is about how everyone's just blindly using the 15/5/51 spec when in reality, it's not even the most popular spec. (It's #3) As Satrina says, the best build has Imp Disciplines even which is among the worst talents in the protection tree.

So, perhaps, it's not the Deep Wounds folk that aren't being "free thinkers", but instead those opposed to it ;)

Foolishness
01-12-2009, 05:02 PM
In deathknight wing of naxx 25's we never cc anything, and often i accidently pull 2-3 groups at once.

When i have 14 mobs beating on me, i think an extra 3% block can become very handy. SO many times i have come close to detah, and sometimes i have died. Turn your back and its instant death.

Being able to do things like this comfortably, in my opinion, will smooth out your runs and help you clear an instance faster.

This is one situaition where i would like the extra 3% block, stacked up with BR/ BV gear.

Kashak
01-13-2009, 12:15 AM
Until about 2 weeks ago I had no problem whatsoever with threat. I didn't use the DW build but I was aware of it. I slightly outgeared all of my normal group doing Heroics thanks to being a blacksmith and some early heroic runs. They were mostly in BC gear, a few blues from dungeons...

In the past week alone I've got a warlock and a hunter (2 of my three normal DPSers) that went from 2k to 3-4k dps with just 4 to 6 upgrades each. I just couldn't keep up anymore. I switched out to the DW build and now on AoE packs I can just manage to keep the mobs on me. Occasionally I lose one but luckily my warlock really likes to tank and my normal healer likes a challenge. With any luck I'll get the Occulus tanking axe and I'll have a bit more wiggle room but at the moment DW is all that's letting my DPS go full out.

Delaroche
01-13-2009, 02:32 AM
In deathknight wing of naxx 25's we never cc anything, and often i accidently pull 2-3 groups at once.

When i have 14 mobs beating on me, i think an extra 3% block can become very handy. SO many times i have come close to detah, and sometimes i have died. Turn your back and its instant death.

Being able to do things like this comfortably, in my opinion, will smooth out your runs and help you clear an instance faster.

This is one situaition where i would like the extra 3% block, stacked up with BR/ BV gear.

Conversely having DW will also help you clear an instance faster.

Turning your back doesn't really make shield spec any better, it just means...dont' turn your back. It also sounds like you need better healers or to control your pulls a lot better. ;)

Petersin
01-13-2009, 03:12 AM
Maybe it is because I am sleepy, or because I've been linked the wrong build, but I cannot see this mythical 3% block which is lost with 15/5/51 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00fZhbZVItrx0zidczsGo).

Also (perhaps due to my own ignorance) it seems to me that 15/3/53 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00fZhZVItrxbzidczsGo) would be superior, not only to you get more disarm time (reducing incoming damage) you boost the raid's DPS by 10% for 10 seconds every 40 (translating into about 2.5% raid DPS). Surely that 2.5% raid damage outstrips a measly 2% crit on a tank.

And yes, I realize disarm does not work on ALL Bosses, and if you're pushing hard on Dragons it's a 'wasted' 2 talent points, but one would think at least in Naxx with the majority of boss disarm-able 13/5/53 would be more 'standard'.

I'll say this, though, I am thoroughly amused by the palindrome quality of the "15/5/51" spec.

Brucimus
01-13-2009, 04:00 AM
Just when I thought I was ahead of the curve using 12/8/51 ...you guys are telling me that deep wounds is better then cruelty

Warscar
01-13-2009, 08:12 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, 15/5/51 is really the best Prot spec right now, for a well balanced tanking role - MT, OT, AoE (trash). Yes, you can optimize a spec for each of the 3 roles, however, if you don't feel like respeccing 15 times in one run, that's the spec you should stick with.

I can tank anything that the game can throw at me right now. Well, MTing 3 drake Sarth is a different story but for some reason I don't think 3% shield block would make a difference...

Anna
01-13-2009, 08:44 AM
Never say you "feel" when it comes to theorycrafting. Anecdotal evidence is sketchy. Saying you feel like you took less damage or this talent CAN help if under these circumstances should not be data you rely on making a choice. The latter baffles me even more. Making choices for talents to use on certain situations completely and utterly confuses me. Unless you are doing bleeding edge content (which there isn't anymore...what 3D Sarth?) and you NEED a specific talent to get by I can understand. Otherwise, ditching talents that can benefit you 100% of the time versus situational talents is not efficient.

The claim that people still have tunnel vision about the spec mentioned in this thread is contradictory in nature. As have been cited, doing damage is part of our job now. The game has changed. Those that choose to ignore their personal DPS for the sake of total dedication to minimizing damage are the ones that can't think outside the box.

Analyze the current state of the game then cross reference that with the current talents. Next, go test in the game and do some of your own number crunching. I came to the same conclusion about 15/5/51 before I ever posted on this website.

Lodron
01-13-2009, 09:06 AM
Before DW/Impale became a popular spec I remember being embarrassed running around town thinking "man I hope nobody looks at me...they are going to think I'm an idiot." :)

"Thinking outside the box" doesn't excuse clearly inferior choices based on unsound testing methodology. Right now it seems that the DW/Impale spec for the majority of encounters for end-game raid tanks provides the best balance of mitigation, dps, and tps.

Ervin
01-14-2009, 03:52 AM
What bothers me a bit about the "don't blindly follow Ciderhelm" posts is that the posters haven't done the math and don't have facts to support their feelings. If you don't bother or can't do the math, I think it'd be safer to just believe those who've done it :).

Nothing wrong with going with something else than 15/5/51, but it's just subpar currently for the majority of the content. If you're not interested in 100% and are happy with 98% performance, that's fine, and most likely won't make any difference. But ofc this forum is for theorycrafting and the last 0.1%, and it's really difficult currently to consider anything but the cookie-cutter build. It is kinda sad that it is so clear and there's not much room for "free thinking".

Astemus
01-14-2009, 08:26 AM
Well, I took everyone's advice and decided to try it out and see what the results were in a raid situation before passing any more judgment. Previously, i could get about 1.3k dps on patchwork not worrying about spamming HS on every swing. After speccing DW, and making sure that every hit was a HS (only 2 normal hits) i got 1.9k dps. This also was with re-gemming for hit/exp or exp/sta where appropriate. DW was 9.8% of my dps, and i had 2/5 cruelty. So I guess that since 3% crit can't add another 9.8% dps, that DW is better.

I still don't think that it's a spec that new raiders should get, since they should be concentrating on staying alive so the raid can actually kill the boss. But once you're familiar with the fights, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want to switch.

I'm still waiting on the WWS from the run to see how I performed on the other bosses, but using patchwerk as an example, it seems the clear winner.

Tohunga
01-15-2009, 02:48 PM
Our mage has definitely pulled Patchwerk aggro before at 130% -_-. He puts out around 10k-11k TPS during the early portions of the fights when he blows all his cooldowns. Hes really strange, he does more DPS then any mages I've seen in any WWSes with whatever the hell he does.

I need my supplements for him mostly. The hunter who matches him can FD so it is not an issue. Theres a few people creeping up on the 6k DPS mark in standstill fights who can also pull off me if I get unlucky. Like I said though this is an extreme circumstance, but I need every little threat boost I can get so these guys can unload from the second we pull the boss.

Threat was never a problem until our DPS finished getting all the loot they needed and decided to start pushing for top speed kills like doing Gluth before decimate even lands. What really concerns me about this is it shows a potential scaling problem in the future. It all depends how large of an upgrade they throw the DPS compared to the tanks each tier though.

This is where taunt is useful for MT's. AFAIK, if a dps passes you, a taunt will snap your aggro to be equal to the highest on the threat table, regardless of who that is (which should be your mage). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but once that mage hits the 120% mark or so, someone (preferably the MT) should be taunting to get their threat back to a reasonable level.

Kazeyonoma
01-15-2009, 03:08 PM
I still don't think that it's a spec that new raiders should get, since they should be concentrating on staying alive so the raid can actually kill the boss. But once you're familiar with the fights, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want to switch.

I still fail to see why I see this creep up so much in the 15/5/51 discussion. Really you're not trading any survival talents here just to get deep wounds. You're losing 3 points in shield specialization. 3% chance to block. I'd hardly consider that a game breaker even for entry level raiders. I went into raiding with this spec and had a whopping 12% block rating, that fixed itself as I got more gear, but even at 12% block rating I was able to go through 10man naxx just fine. As long as you balance your other stats, namely EH and avoidance you'll be okay.

If anything starting raiders benefit more from this spec than late game raiders. Why? Because Enrage timers are where new raiders are dying, the tank dying is largely due to lack of gear, or lack of healing, NOT 3% shield block rating. But if your guild like MOST guilds are getting bosses down with <30 seconds left before an enrage timer, than having this boost to the tank dps gives you a better margin for killing a boss. Hell, even if your <2 minutes on an enrage timer if someone DIES during your boss fight, your extra tank dps can keep it from a 1% wipe. Troll through this website and see where most of the complaints are. it isn't about "zomg i can't survive this encounter", most complaints are from "zomg why am I outdps'ing dps classes". Yes most of these are pugs, but that just makes doing heroics to gear up easier. It makes early raids easier because you can make up for undergeared or underskilled raid dps.

Spazlord
01-15-2009, 04:23 PM
I'm impressed with the Impale/DW spec so far. I've chosen to leave points in Shield Spec at the expense of Imp Revenge and Vigilance.

Vigilance was nice, fights like Sarth3D I was putting on the MT to help out a bit with the huge breaths. In heroics, I'd use it on the highest AoE DPS class and it gave me a little boost in that dept. It's not a game-breaker. Imp Revenge is nice too. 20% on an ability that already hits hard is sexy, not to mention I have Impale on top of that!

Shield Block I've kept, despite a lot what people are saying, I feel that it's significant damage reduction that I'm loathe to lose. I have about 1100 base SBV. Glyph of Blocking. Gag Order. Critical Block. With all of this synergy, it's not uncommon to see 3k blocks, even more sometimes. Sure, it's not a dodge, but it can turn a 10k hit into a 7k hit, that can easily be the difference between a dead tank and a live tank, particularly in sensitive transitions, like picking up Malygos after a vortex, or Sapphiron after an air phase.

Warscar
01-16-2009, 07:04 AM
I'm impressed with the Impale/DW spec so far. I've chosen to leave points in Shield Spec at the expense of Imp Revenge and Vigilance.

Vigilance was nice, fights like Sarth3D I was putting on the MT to help out a bit with the huge breaths. In heroics, I'd use it on the highest AoE DPS class and it gave me a little boost in that dept. It's not a game-breaker. Imp Revenge is nice too. 20% on an ability that already hits hard is sexy, not to mention I have Impale on top of that!

Shield Block I've kept, despite a lot what people are saying, I feel that it's significant damage reduction that I'm loathe to lose. I have about 1100 base SBV. Glyph of Blocking. Gag Order. Critical Block. With all of this synergy, it's not uncommon to see 3k blocks, even more sometimes. Sure, it's not a dodge, but it can turn a 10k hit into a 7k hit, that can easily be the difference between a dead tank and a live tank, particularly in sensitive transitions, like picking up Malygos after a vortex, or Sapphiron after an air phase.

Well here's the thing... you can easily get 3% SBR from gear if you wanted to swap out a few pieces because it's such a cheap stat. But you can't get a 20% damage bonus for Revenge and you certainly can't get Vigilance, even though, as you say, Vigilance might not be too useful.

The biggest use I've seen for Vigilance is when you're stacking sparks on Malygos. It gives some breathing room to your highest DPS without having him call out for Hand of Salv and using threat reductions.

If I really had to take Shield Spec, I'd consider losing Focused Rage. If you're worried about 10k hits, you're likely in an infinite rage scenario anyway, and FR would be the first thing you could give up.

LaSt1LeFt
01-16-2009, 01:42 PM
Seems to me that people choose 15/5/51 for threat and extra dps

1. threat is laughable in this expansion. Pushing 5k is easy with any other spec giving slightly more defensive talents.

2. if your dps cant kill the boss on their own then they are bad. There are like what? 2 dps races in the game. By the time you progress far enough to reach them all dps should be pushing at least 4k on bosses which is plenty.

I have nothing against the spec seeing as how you do not really lose much from it except block and some crit, but I would like to say that choosing that spec just to push your dps and your threat are really not viable excuses over maxing out defensive stats at this stage in the game.

Ridlyblade
01-16-2009, 01:43 PM
Personally I take a point outta dodge, with all the dodge on gear and the dr, losing "1%" from the talent is actually something more like .5%... meh.

I think as gear gets better, we will see putting talent points into dodge & parry will become more and more worthless due to DR, and we will want to move those points into damage (read: threat) abilities, or see ourselves keeping talents where they are and wearing some dps gear to keep the warlocks from pulling agro and going squish.

Avoidance from talent points, racials and birthday tank suit defnese are not subject to diminishing returns, they're added on after diminishing returns are calculated...

which in turn makes talent points in Anticipation more valuable than dodge on gear.

blahism
01-16-2009, 04:15 PM
3 points in DW vastly outperforms 3 in cruelty.

How exactly did you feel the loss of 3% block? You noticed that out of numerous low level mobs eventually hitting you, you took slightly more damage? Really? Additionally DW would have killed the mobs quicker: ergo less damage intake.

healers who don't understand the spec feel that difference unless they out gear the raid/heroic in question.

Remember, everything is in percentages. if we didn't care about 3% then every tank would be wearing the staminator icebane set and gemming to meet minimal avoidance/mit %

i'm a recent convert and my pally healers felt it the most.. and i heard more health beeps than normal

perhaps i should use sb or something to help proc some dmg reduction :)

Taelas
01-16-2009, 06:19 PM
Facts are, you do not give up any significant survivability talents to get Deep Wounds.

You give up Improved Spell Reflection and 3% block. That's it.

15/5/51 is here to stay. It's the best single target and multi target DPS (and therefore threat) build for Protection warriors.

Dakki
01-16-2009, 06:39 PM
Well... what if your DPS -is- bad? ;p

I've just tried out the Deep Wounds spec, even though I was pretty skeptical. The difference is noticeable, I think. The crit loss looks bad, but because so many of your special abilities have large bonuses to crit from your prot talents, you're still landing plenty of crits... except now they're all 20% bigger and followed by bleeds! ;p My threat generation's gone up and DPS have to be going nuts for me to worry about losing aggro.

I gave up Gag Order and a bit of Improved Revenge, and a couple of utility talents. Maybe I'd have done better to give up Last Stand, but meh, I feel better with my security blankie.

Maybe they'll nerf Deep Wounds and I'll have to go back. Ah well. In the meantime, I hit my first 5k+ SS crit the other day, and I was mos' happy.

Taelas
01-16-2009, 08:34 PM
You don't have to give up Gag Order or Improved Revenge at all -- just remove three points from Shield Specialization. 3% block is considerable, but Gag Order and 2/2 Improved Revenge are far better.

Lightmgl
01-17-2009, 01:50 AM
This is where taunt is useful for MT's. AFAIK, if a dps passes you, a taunt will snap your aggro to be equal to the highest on the threat table, regardless of who that is (which should be your mage). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but once that mage hits the 120% mark or so, someone (preferably the MT) should be taunting to get their threat back to a reasonable level.

Patchwerk is one of the few bosses that still remains untauntable. In other fights though we make it work. I can usually stay ahead of him though. Its tricks of the trade being applied to him that can sometimes push him ahead of me.

Also its been awhile but I'm pretty sure taunt gives you the threat level of the current aggro target. If you just taunt before the mage actually pulls aggro you won't gain any threat even if he is at 120 or 125%. Usually we don't let him get that high anyways. I'll often intervene him in fights where I can afford to just to push him down a bit.

I think Xav's patchwerk is another perfect example showing the DPS potential in the game right now and where threat can certainly start to become an issue again. The DPS capable by most of the classes in the game is quite extreme once they perfect what they are doing. While I've watched their DPS more than double since they started gaining heroic gear I have not seen my threat scale up anywhere close to that fast purely from gear. A large part of being able to keep up with them was the "excessive" threat we seemed to be producing innately just from the changes to our abilities. Its not very excessive anymore. Its all doable now but you definitely have to put effort into it as opposed to when we started heroics and started raiding in the new expansion.

cudmaster
01-20-2009, 11:32 AM
Avoidance from talent points, racials and birthday tank suit defnese are not subject to diminishing returns, they're added on after diminishing returns are calculated...

which in turn makes talent points in Anticipation more valuable than dodge on gear.

Are you really really sure about that?

I'm not going to tell you that talented dodge is on DR, it could be that DR on my dodge from items ramped up slower due to a lower starting point or some other mathmatical gymnastics.

What I will tell you is that I had 5 of 5, then respeced to 4 of 5 and saw my dodge % go down by less than .5%

Ridlyblade
01-20-2009, 12:31 PM
Are you really really sure about that?

I'm not going to tell you that talented dodge is on DR, it could be that DR on my dodge from items ramped up slower due to a lower starting point or some other mathmatical gymnastics.

What I will tell you is that I had 5 of 5, then respeced to 4 of 5 and saw my dodge % go down by less than .5%


Yes I'm really sure about that

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html

BuliwynT
01-20-2009, 04:05 PM
If you wanted to keep deep wounds and still pick up shield spec, you could try:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000005335122500 0012521230113321300000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000

The bad thing being 2/3 focused rage - one less rage spent practically every second is considerable.. so maybe make damage shield 1/2 instead.

At least until they come up with a solution for DW.

Lizana
01-20-2009, 04:13 PM
I personally kept my 3% block and lost all the points in focused rage. I dont tank trash, and i dont do 5 mans or heroics. I tank bosses, and i have yet to encounter a boss where i am rage starved for more than 2 seconds

Ridlyblade
01-20-2009, 04:16 PM
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAb00fZhZVItrg0zidczsGo)

That's the spec I use.

I haven't really noticed the lack of Focused Rage, and my raid always have Totem of Wrath/Heart of the Crusader and Leader of the Pack/Rampage which gives most of my things (basically not Revenge, Shockwave, and Conc Blow) +27% crit so I don't really notice the 2% I don't have in Cruelty.

(Side note: I roam alot so the 4% spell miss is near to priceless to me)

Blaze Mcgee
01-20-2009, 10:48 PM
My question is, when the nerf for DW comes, and we all know it is coming, are people going to stay 15/5/51? Personally i tried 15/5/51 and wasn't a complete fan. I may try it again once i screw with some other gear and gems and such, but if the nerf is going to be that significant, will it even be worth it? Or will it end up being a wasted few points?

Zrthun
01-20-2009, 11:44 PM
Well there are no details at the Moment so how could we tell you? In fact they could not nerf it without buff the Prot Warrior with anything else.
Threat is more or less no Problem but after managing tps the tank is asked for dps. That content is doable without higher tank dps is not really an argument if you could choose between two tanks with in fact the same incomming damage and one does more dmg which one would you use?
All content is very easy atm but it will not be that easy all the time.

Lenn
01-21-2009, 10:32 AM
Personally speaking I've always used the 15/5/51 once I hit def cap and have never had a problem. My guild has cleared all content including OS 3D. I don't think at any one time while we were progressing through the content was there an issue of tanks taking too much damage. Keep in mind most of us were still in Sunwell/Heroic gear. So the idea that those few points into a more defensive oriented build are going to save you from some awful death in the future is misleading.

Ricovega
01-21-2009, 10:40 AM
I've been reading tankspot for a while now, and for the most part, it's been a valuable tool for me. I like to read about people's theories on different things including specs, rotations, and other non standard things.

However, it seems that everyone is obsessed with this deep wounds build. Honestly, I'd like to see all these WWS where the 100-200 dps increase made the difference between a wipe and a kill, or talk to your healers and ask if you doing more damage helped them heal you better with despite the extra incoming damage.

I love alternative specs, but when people are telling new tanks and others asking for a standard tank spec that 15/5/51 is the standard and the only spec a warrior should be, it really annoys me.

Listen, your tanks. I know it's fun to do damage too, but a build that sacrifices mitigation at all for more damage isn't a standard tank build. I am far from an expert but Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhxZVItrx0zidIzsGo) is more like the standard tanking spec, leaving 4 points to put into either imp spell reflect, puncture, or imp HS.

I'm sure that ciderhelm is a great tank, but think for yourselves. And let's discuss! That's what makes this site great.

couldnt agree more

Junkyard
01-21-2009, 02:15 PM
The thing is this would all be true if Blizzard posters had not said that people will be looking at a players ability to tank, and dps now. It's not just some random guy on a websites backward theory that tanks should be doing dps Blizzard has pushed us in this direction. I am not sure about other players, but I started looking at the beta talent calculators very early in Wotlk beta, and this is the spec I kept coming to. Here is a word of warning. My guild has cleared all current content, and as our dps is getting fully geared the threat gap is closing fast, and I will bet tanks that only go for survival will be holding thier guilds dps back in Ulduar. You can argue that this spec is leading new tanks astray, but I would not want to be a new tank in this aoe friendly instance clearing age with out this spec.

Lightmgl
01-21-2009, 04:45 PM
Heh mage and hunter DPS went up even further this patch. Now I really have to work to hold off the mage. I'm even sneaking intervenes on him sometimes now if it is a fight that allows me to.

Deep wounds is likely to be one of our best scaling threat moves throughout the xpac especially for aoe threat since weapon damage tends to scale up very rapidly compared to secondary stats. They really need to improve the scaling in other areas if they are going to hamper it in any way.

Diversion
01-21-2009, 07:11 PM
Look at my armory, my toon is listed.. In most 5 mans I pull over 1900+ dps overall at the END of the run.. that's pretty exceptional considering boss fights bring my dps down a lot. Of course my high dps is coming from the AOE trash pulls.. but still, it's nice to do over 2k dps average for most of a run.

I haven't even tried the 15/5/51 build yet.. if it's that's good I will definately give it a shot.. As suspected, I haven't noticed much of a improvement from choosing imp cleaving to be honest..

Canariensis
01-23-2009, 08:29 AM
I've been reading tankspot for a while now, and for the most part, it's been a valuable tool for me. I like to read about people's theories on different things including specs, rotations, and other non standard things.

However, it seems that everyone is obsessed with this deep wounds build. Honestly, I'd like to see all these WWS where the 100-200 dps increase made the difference between a wipe and a kill, or talk to your healers and ask if you doing more damage helped them heal you better with despite the extra incoming damage.

I love alternative specs, but when people are telling new tanks and others asking for a standard tank spec that 15/5/51 is the standard and the only spec a warrior should be, it really annoys me.

Listen, your tanks. I know it's fun to do damage too, but a build that sacrifices mitigation at all for more damage isn't a standard tank build. I am far from an expert but Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhxZVItrx0zidIzsGo) is more like the standard tanking spec, leaving 4 points to put into either imp spell reflect, puncture, or imp HS.

I'm sure that ciderhelm is a great tank, but think for yourselves. And let's discuss! That's what makes this site great.


My standard reply to most people questioning the 15-5-51 and it's viability "tanking" is...look at my build, what "tanking" talent did i skip? Looking at your link that you provided, what makes 3/3 endless rage = tank spec "must"? and why is a full 5/5 cruelty a tanking "must"? If take those 8 points and add them to your "left over" points...guess what, I got my 15-5-51 build...tada

If you look at the majority of 15-5-51 builds, and compare them to "tank" specs...they really aren't that big of difference. In my personal case, I chose to drop points of "rage" talents. It's easy for me to say, so you'll have to take my word on this, i've been 15-5-51 since the day i hit 80 (November). Now I'm not saying I invented the spec, but I was running it long before there was ever a post about it.

My motivation is simple, I enjoy 5-man runs and my guild has chosen to use a Druid as "MT" and a Paladin as "OT". My guild has never asked me to spec Fury and has never had an issue with me remaining protection even though I never tank anything 25-man outside of the occasional add and the additional Drakes in Sartharion. Speccing 15-5-51 is fun, no doubt, but it's every bit as viable as any other "tank" build.

Canariensis
01-23-2009, 08:41 AM
I still fail to see why I see this creep up so much in the 15/5/51 discussion. Really you're not trading any survival talents here just to get deep wounds. You're losing 3 points in shield specialization. 3% chance to block. I'd hardly consider that a game breaker

While I agree with your stance on the 15-5-51...why do you have to drop 3 points in shield spec, would be my question to you?

I see a lot of people drop 3 points in shield spec (which is fine, i guess), but why?

When was the last time rage was an issue? Do you "really" need Puncture and Focussed Rage? I have not had either talent for months. When I run 5-man I AoE tank (rage not an issue); When I run 10-man I am usually the "MT" (boss hitting me = rage not an issue); When I run 25-man, I help tank trash and the occassional add (rage not an issue) on bosses I put on DPS gear and try to pretend i'm doing something important (i'm really not...it's not that great...but I keep Demo shout and Commanding up)

As I indicated in a previous post, i've been 15-5-51 since hitting 80. I personally think we carry a shield for a reason - to block. Since hitting 80, it has been my goal to keep Dodge/Parry around 20-22% and maximize Block (i'd like to think SBV was good for something beyond ZOMG Big Slam Numbers). I would never drop 3 points out of parry...I would never drop 3 points out of dodge...why do people think it's ok to drop 3 points out of block? for what Endless rage?

Astemus
01-23-2009, 09:49 AM
Canariensis, the main point behind me posting about this is that people are pushing the 15/5/51 spec on everyone, saying that if you don't use it, you're a newb. I really just would like to see a more general spec pushed on people asking for advice and give them a bit more room to make their own decisions.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhZVItrx0zidIzsGo) for example (5/3/54) would be closer to what I would suggest for someone looking for a standard spec. You then choose what other talents you need. From here you can drop 3 points from Focused Rage or Shield Spec, and put 2 points in Cruelty, and then spec into deep wounds via the arms tree. Or you can put 5 points into Cruelty, and the rest into imp spell reflect/puncture/imp HS/whatever you want.

This kind of advice gets people thinking about their spec more as it should be, personalization based on what you'd like to do.

Honestly, as much as my original post sounds like it's attacking the spec itself, it's not (in fact I'm specced 15/5/51 right now!). It's more how the general idea of a base spec is all but abandoned for the latest fad, and people who don't understand their spec never will if they're spoon fed these kinds of things.

As an aside, it's rather annoying reading people's posts where they say "I've been 15/5/51 since I was born, not saying it was my idea, but...". Those kinds of comments don't belong in this forum.

loquatious
01-23-2009, 09:55 AM
As an aside, it's rather annoying reading people's posts where they say "I've been 15/5/51 since I was born, not saying it was my idea, but...". Those kinds of comments don't belong in this forum.

As annoying as hearing the smartest warrior spec refered to as a "Fad" or that the folks using it are mindless sheep who are spoon fed their specs.

I can see how that would be annoying.

Kazeyonoma
01-23-2009, 10:56 AM
I don't pick up puncture, I am however against taking away 3/3 focused rage. Because threat is most sensitive at the start of the fight, and that's also when rage starvation can happen, -3 rage on everything I've got is a pretty big deal, especially with 2 rage revenges, or bloodrage/shield slams. But having puncture is definitely not part of the 15/5/51 spec.

Astemus
01-23-2009, 10:57 AM
As annoying as hearing the smartest warrior spec refered to as a "Fad"

A fad isn't a bad thing. Perhaps bandwagon would be less offensive? Either way, my point still stands. I'm trying to illustrate a point, not bash the spec.


or that the folks using it are mindless sheep who are spoon fed their specs.

I actually never said that at all, nor do I think that. I'm simply saying that we, as a community, shouldn't be copy/pasting the same spec for people asking "wahts a good spec 4 me ima tank warrior" as I see all too often. If you would take the time to read, you would see that I was saying we shouldn't be spoon feeding the masses, and not that whoever uses it is being spoon fed.

15/5/51 is a great spec, but it's not the only one as many people have pointed out. There are more traditional specs, such as 5/8/58, and more extreme specs like the Unrelenting Assault builds being hashed out.

Give people a more generalized spec and let them make their own way of it. Otherwise, when the winds change and they need their spec to do something else, or god forbid, DW gets nerfed, they're capable, instead of coming back asking for seconds.

Mhoram
01-23-2009, 11:02 AM
What's annoying is that people that advocate using any other spec (whether or not it's good, bad, or indifferent) seem to be viewed here as crackpots or trolls.

There are plenty of people out there who are just going to spec 15/5/51 because Ciderhelm says it's best. Most of us here know why it works, and why we should spec that way, but there's also tons of followers out there. You all write about them in your blogs, right?

Why discuss it at all if all you're gonna do is make people feel like morons for even bringing it up?

Kazeyonoma
01-23-2009, 11:10 AM
What's annoying is that people that advocate using any other spec (whether or not it's good, bad, or indifferent) seem to be viewed here as crackpots or trolls.

There are plenty of people out there who are just going to spec 15/5/51 because Ciderhelm says it's best. Most of us here know why it works, and why we should spec that way, but there's also tons of followers out there. You all write about them in your blogs, right?

Why discuss it at all if all you're gonna do is make people feel like morons for even bringing it up?

Excuse me? Ciderhelm right now is spec'd Relentless Assault. and he himself specs around to get Imp Spell Reflect for Malygos and has said to do so. He as well as the rest of us here never called any of you guys crackpots or trolls, we always ALWAYS ask "what do you lose/gain by going your spec versus the 15/5/51" and we often tell you that we sacrifice 3% block to gain a good bit of damage. Often the argument is that you want a more "traditional mitigation spec" but what survival talents are you giving up other than the 3% block? Or as others have mentioned if you seriously don't have rage issues (i can't imagine this to be so true that it'd be worth it but to each their own) you can do a 15/5/51 spec with 5/5 shield spec by removing 3/3 focused rage, or take some points out of gag order (which defeats the purpose of a maximal dps spec but again, your play style).

We aren't trying to belittle the OP here. but the tone he came into this thread is the problem. "obsession" is how he coined it. Obsessions are normally seen as bad things. when obviously 15/5/51 has been a thought out, well discussed spec that appeared in our NEWS when Cider suggested it at first, and has mapped out exactly why he took it and what he feels he sacrificed for it and the consequences. There's a difference between making someone feel like a moron, and just trying to point out that his "more survival oriented" viewpoint doesn't hold when there really isn't a loss of survival.

Kazeyonoma
01-23-2009, 11:13 AM
This thread is done. Spec how you want, do it how you want. We've given our ideas and viewpoints as to why 15/5/51 is a GREAT spec to use at 80 for varying situations and possibilities. We're not advocating to blindly follow Ciderhelm. We're not advocating to blindly follow anyone. READ THE DISCUSSIONS, MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS. If you do this, I'd find it hardpressed for anyone to look at the 15/5/51 spec and say it's retarded, at the least bit it's a raid viable spec.

Closed.