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AriesFrost
01-08-2009, 10:53 PM
Well, the main problem in our raiding guild has finally occurred...the distribution of loot and the ''core members'' who raid.

First problem: We had a guild meeting today and apparently not everyone had agreed about guild progression. The common Heals and Tanks first then DPS second. Now, this had referred to tier tokens more than anything really. Anyways, we got in this whole discussion about the DPS should have an equal opportunity based on help to the guild and coming to the raids prepared. This may seem like a prohibition to guild members that are newer to the guild...but I honestly think otherwise.

Problem Dos: We currently have two groups that raid Naxx constantly and we don't have quite enough people for 25-Naxx...but enough for the two groups. The 3 or 4 people who are left out of the ''core groups'' have had a problem with them not getting any gear. But those people we only ''left out'' for say. We still rockin' blues and 80 greens. So you would rather take the more well geared people, right? I need some input before I never settle this answer!! The suspense is killing me!! HELPZORZ!

Niian
01-08-2009, 10:58 PM
Most people should be able to walk into a 10mann naxx already owning T7 gloves/chest from just badges.
A lot of the badge gear is better than naxx gear too.

Generally because it's so easy to get gear, and because in a few runs you will be DEing all the epics people dont want for offspecs, give it to the ones who will benefit most.
Don't go giving defense gear to the DPS plate wearers if the tank can use it, and I'd suggest trying to stick to appropriate classes for armour types. IE if a cloth piece drops and its nice for a holy priest, but your resto shaman also wants, priest would get pref because of armour class.

Naxx is relatively easy once you have it down pat, and the gear will flow in.

Satrina
01-09-2009, 12:23 AM
Loot priority in Naxx is not even remotely necessary.

Lizana
01-09-2009, 01:43 AM
Loot priority in Naxx is not even remotely necessary.

It is if thats all you can run, and your haveing troubles doing it. Not everyone oneshotted it 16 minutes after the game came out and now DE's everything that drops in the entire zone. Dont be an elitist and assume just becuase your guild doesnt have loot drama over naxx epics that every guild doesnt.


Personaly my guild runs DKP for 10 man naxx and we find it suits us quite well. We are a casual raid guild that is progressing in 10 man with a couple of groups while trying to build up to 25 man. DKP means the people that stay in the guild and raid often get loot before others. Now we do gear tanks up first, and everyone else second. Thats just becuase haveing an overgeared tank can make up for subpar dps and subpar healers. Plus our tanks are the raid leaders, they are in every run. DPS comes and goes same as healers for us, we have a flux of people that raid at diffrent times. But our tanks are always there.

Krashtork
01-09-2009, 03:08 AM
Take a chill pill.

Loot priority is not necessary in Naxx because the tier gear is a marginal upgrade over heroic gear (if at all) and if your tank NEEDS a chest token in order to down the next boss, you've got bigger issues than loot priority.

Satrina
01-09-2009, 07:14 AM
It is if thats all you can run, and your haveing troubles doing it. Not everyone oneshotted it 16 minutes after the game came out and now DE's everything that drops in the entire zone. Dont be an elitist and assume just becuase your guild doesnt have loot drama over naxx epics that every guild doesnt.

Easy there, killer. I said priority isn't necessary, not dkp isn't necessary. Even if you're not killing the whole thing, there are lots of epix to go around off the naxx bosses without artifically creating drama with tank/healer first priority.

zander1976
01-09-2009, 08:15 AM
Hello,

For me, I think everybody should get a fare shot at gear. Now there are acception to the rule and thats you simple can't get passed something because of gear limitations. Note that I said if you can't get passed something, ie the tank is getting destroyed, healers can't keep up or dps just can't get it done fast enough. All 3 can potentially stop you from progressing. If there isn't a reason to give tank/healers prority why would you?
The loot rules we used were main spec then off spec and everybody got a chance. The more you spread around gear the less depended you are on some people and the less it looks like favoritism. Also, 1 person can't cast 2 spells at the same time.

carchian
01-09-2009, 09:36 AM
Our guild had this problem. Initially we used to have everyone roll main spec and the winner won. We ended up running into problems that in one run, one person would end up with 5 pieces of gear and everyone else nothing. We then tried the one piece of main spec gear per person per raid and one piece of tier per person per raid. That still did not take into account the fact that a particular skilled raider who has been raiding every night with us for months trying to get one piece of gear and when it finally drops it goes to someone who is a stand in or a minor upgrade. We finally tried a DKP system. After a few runs while using this system, a lot of problems went away. It rewards all of your dedicated raiders and allows them to pick the items they want the most. I'd suggest try it for a few weeks and see if that fixes the problem. It did ours.

Powhound
01-09-2009, 09:46 AM
There are so many loot options outside of raids, especially for equivalent 10 man epics you shouldn't have to worry about loot priorities.

Earlier WoW raiding epics were far more rare, especially pre-BC where you might not see a particular piece of desirable healing/tanking loot for months. Loot priorities made more sense under those raiding conditions than they do for current content.

We found setting up an enviroment where raiders work together and talk about loot needs really helps allieviate loot drama. (Of course it never totally disappears!)

nosscire
01-09-2009, 10:42 AM
Priority systems are usually a problem. For it to work everyone in guild must agree on that progression is important as hell and that it have to be done asap.

Priority do speed up progression a bit, but question really is, is that week or max two weeks you gain from it worth the drama? Is it worth possibly making some raiders feel like second class players?

I'd say the best loot systems are straight rolls on items you need in 10 mans (with some sense, if someone won 3 items already he probably should pass) and DKP in 25 mans.

As for your other question. The way we solve it is by having one progression team, and as many extra teams as we can get. The progression team always consist of the best geared/skilled players (this goes for officers and guild leader too, if they aint on top, they don't go in the progression team - same rules for everyone).

This team is chosen each week so you can catch up or drop out, noones safe in it.

The other team(s) we let everyone raid. We rotate people so that noone have to stand to the side more then one week. If you are geared enough for raiding the instance, you will be allowed to raid, simple as that, and for Naxx our requierment is pretty much "be level 80".

Satrina
01-09-2009, 10:50 AM
I'd say the best loot systems are straight rolls on items you need in 10 mans (with some sense, if someone won 3 items already he probably should pass) and DKP in 25 mans.
That thinking died with Karazhan. Everything is going to come in 10 and 25 from here on out, and there are going to be guilds whose focus is raiding with 10 all the way.

nosscire
01-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Not for me it didn't. In 10mans DKP is usually more work then it's worth. If you have 10 man it's not that hard to just split the loot fairly even using rolls and asking people to pass if they have already won a piece or two.

In 25mans that isn't as easy. It's just much more people that want the same loot, and therefor DKP is useful to avoid drama.

Thats my take on it anyway, and it seems to work well for us.

Krete
01-09-2009, 11:15 AM
That thinking died with Karazhan. Everything is going to come in 10 and 25 from here on out, and there are going to be guilds whose focus is raiding with 10 all the way.

We're a prime example of that. Our core 10 is the same 10 raiders that we started raiding Kara/ZA with. We've never quite got enough to have a 25 man team, and have yet to get enough for two 10 mans (honestly I guess we could try to recruit a little more). Even though we've been a raid group for a good bit, we still felt it would be a good idea to initiate a point based system.

We started on Naxx this week, and with it we started EPGP. After research, we felt like that system fit us the best. We always tried to put the upgrades where it was most needed. We still do that but use EPGP to see where a person falls with Effort and Gear over time, which we feel is better than just having 2 or more people who would benefit equally roll on a piece. We've seen people get long running lucky roll streaks that would span over many raid nights and it gets frustrating to those showing up just as much and losing to the RNG. I feel like its a very objective solution to what we were trying to accomplish already. So far this week we've only used it to make a decision two times, but that will probably be more frequent as people get out of their lower iLevel gear.

This system (and others like it) also help prevent someone from waltzing in one night and swiping an epic from someone who's been looking for it for 6 months. We really wanted to prevent that since 95% of the time, the raid would have the same 10 dedicated members. There's also no DKP hoarding with this system, which was also attractive.

zander1976
01-09-2009, 01:05 PM
Hey,

Yeah, theres a lot to be said for one persons comment I heard one day. DPS - "Progression, for what? I get to see new bosses but I never get anything out of it".

As far as rolling, we simple as the person if they have already gotten something if they mind if the send person got it intead on the roll. People who were greedy got lots of stuff on that run and weren't invited to run again.

We did try a dkp system as well and ran into one problem. Each class had there own channel to talk about buffs and what not. None of the mages were greedy so they would simple chat in there channel about who wanted it and who it was a good upgrade for and then bid 1 dkp and they got there item. Problem came in on multiclass items were mages had so much dkp since they weren't sending it. :)

Lizana
01-09-2009, 01:23 PM
Hey,

Yeah, theres a lot to be said for one persons comment I heard one day. DPS - "Progression, for what? I get to see new bosses but I never get anything out of it".

As far as rolling, we simple as the person if they have already gotten something if they mind if the send person got it intead on the roll. People who were greedy got lots of stuff on that run and weren't invited to run again.

We did try a dkp system as well and ran into one problem. Each class had there own channel to talk about buffs and what not. None of the mages were greedy so they would simple chat in there channel about who wanted it and who it was a good upgrade for and then bid 1 dkp and they got there item. Problem came in on multiclass items were mages had so much dkp since they weren't sending it. :)

Thats why you set minimum bids for items

Satrina
01-09-2009, 01:24 PM
That's just a case of choosing the wrong system for the people you have. A fixed price system is what you need there, not a bid system. Edit: Or a minimum bid, sure.

iconia
01-09-2009, 05:11 PM
*long post warning*
In 10 man Naxxramas you shouldn't need any prioritized loot..

Why?..

Well.. first:
Those attending should have done quite some heroics by now, and well, lots of the heroic-gear really is equal to Naxxramas-gear. T7 Chest and Gloves can be bought from vendor, and the trinkets is simular to those in heroics.

Secondly:
If your tank needs gear to be able to start tanking in Naxxramas, he needs to do some more Heroics and/or buy crafted gear. With an undergeared tank, you wont get far, no matter how good your healers are. Uncrittable at least.
Same with healers. They can get away with less gear-demands though depending on how many healers you bring.
DPS. The better dps, the less healing is needed on bosses == faster, safer fights.

Looking at the "facts" above, all types needs to be geared up.

Thirdly: Would you, as an off-tank, want to see all "your" loot go to the main-tank, just cus he didnt want to do heroics? Or the cloth-dps'ers see "their" things fly away to healer, even though it might not be the "best" item for a healer?

With this said, It's no fun attending a raid where you prioritize certain people. Even if you are not one of these that needs the items, It's more fun (and raidwise better) if all can get an item each. All is happy.

Fourth:
1 round in Naxxramas can give 2-3 items / player in best case (13 bosses i believe, maybe 26 items or more total). So, with good fortune, you can get all players abit higher, than getting a few players really high. Even if you dont clear it all, its still alot of loot.

So what this mean then?, Well.. Next time you in there with the group, _everyone_ has a chance to perform better. Bosses go down faster, ppl gets even more upgrades, those that still have not got item's might get prio oslt. It all depends on what you decide.

My rules in My runs:
*0 General rule: Main Spec (can be other than current specc) > Off Spec, Common sense.

*1 I usually roughly go for the rule: 1item / member. This means, at start of raid, everyone knows there is a chance they will get an item.

*2 Secondly I go for the recommendation: Major upgrade > Minor one. This is cus it's always guildruns, and good geared guildmembers == faster raid next time. This is not a set rule though, since some things can be like "the best item we can achive atm", which makes this a recommendation only, just for the whole raids knowledge. It's better to give item to someone who maybe gets lots of extra stats, then to give to someone who gets 2 extra INT from the upgrade f.ex. Noone will get mad if someone chooses to grab an item by this recommendation since it still is overuled by rule number one.

*3 T7-loot is not included in the ordinary Purple items, but counts a an "own" raid, inside the raid =).. This means you can actually get 1 t7 / raid no matter if you won an non-t7-set piece or not.

*4 If noone wants an item, it goes for Secondary function and/or off-spec rather than DE. Mostly this is for tanks and healers to get some dps-gear to be able to farm mats or gold or w/e they might need to future raids.

These rules are based on thinking of the Raid as whole, and not to get certain members up. We are not an HC Raiding Guild, but a causual friend guild with abit of raid progress.

These are set for 10 man raids ONLY. For 25 man we are going to use DKP.

My 5 cents of thoughts

shiz98
01-09-2009, 05:30 PM
The 3 or 4 people who are left out of the ''core groups'' have had a problem with them not getting any gear. But those people we only ''left out'' for say. We still rockin' blues and 80 greens.
Bah, I had written a long post about this, but this isn't the place for it.

Bottom line: have a mechanism whereby people on standby can get loot. They'll be happier, you'll have replacements who are actually worth bringing, and you'll get people showing up on standby.

People who sit around in a capital city for 3 hours endure more pain than the people who are having fun raiding. Reward them, even just a little.

Blacklac
01-09-2009, 05:52 PM
Our guild use to use a Loot council system in which they would change vent channels, discuss it and award the loot to who they thought it served best. Recently we changed the system a little bit (mostly due to my complaining about it being shaddy.) Now the officers stay in channel, discuss who should get the loot, ask for links of current items, ask raid opinion, etc etc. It really works, IMO. If anyone has an objection they can voice it. Or worse comes to worse and everyone is similarly geared, we decide to have the people who need it roll for it. We do have a slight tank/healer prio, but its really more that people in our guild understand that a raid with tanks/healers outgearing dps generally is more successful than a raid with DPS outgearing tanks/healers.

Tier pieces can be tricky. We keep several things in mind, is the person in all blues? Shows a lack of effort to gear up. For example a hunter who bought T7 gloves/chest with badges will probably get the Helm upgrade from Plunderers helm before the hunter in all blues. Also who shows up for raids? Yes theres a healer/tank prio, but is the tank on to run heroics with the guild to help others gear up? Is he going to show up to 25 mans?

Oh I should have mentioned we are a 25 man progression guild. Usually loot from 10 mans is no issue at all. I'm talking about upgrades that people can't get anywhere else. Example, Armageddon/Deathsbite when you have lots of 2h melee raiders these are the things that can make or break your reputation. If you're really that concerned about Hero's T7, you should really look at the kind of guild you have put together.

Lots of options, lots of things to consider... Loot is always an issue, but if it ever becomes a serious problem, thats generally a bad sign for the survival of your guild.

Millet
01-09-2009, 07:19 PM
Even if we have just started raiding Naxx, last run you hear me asking: anyone? need??offpecc?? noone? just to make sure they were not gone on a break while looting - and how can you be away on such moment? Just shows that Naxx gear isn't much to fight about if you did everything you can outside.

We use simple dice system with relaxed attitude: Be fair and considerate of others, rather than: mine!! all mine!! Ey, I wanted that.. - well, maybe someone actually needed it?

I also take note of attendance and how much items that person got before.

So far never had problems with it.

Vapes
01-14-2009, 12:41 PM
10mans we generally just /roll. I run with some good people, and not sure how well it would work if some people are greedy/shady. We don't have any sort of Main tank rule, but often people pass on tier pieces if I don't have it yet.

I just let everyone /roll on main spec upgrades, and if someone's on a streak and not passing of their own accord (which they normally do), I'll mention it.

If someone rolls on something (rings, cloaks, necks, trinkets) that seem more suited for another class, I'll mention it.

Though if someone just won a ring, and then something else drops that's very nice I'm not going to hold them back from it. Kind of like if you just got a ring, but then an awesome weapon drops.

In 10 mans, if you have people with the right attitude, it shouldn't be too much of an issue, and Naxx isn't so bad that you should need to specifically say "Tanks and Healers first". It will probably make things slightly smooth as far as progressing, but I doubt it's anywhere near worth it in this situation if you have enough 1-2 people causing grief over it.

25man... I'll probably have to use DKP unfortunately, I used it for 25man TBC, annoying. I'd honestly just leave master looter off in 10mans if it weren't for accidental clicks and people withdrawling their rolls when they see someone rolling that needs it more.

Mandorellan
01-19-2009, 08:26 AM
I've been reading this post with interest, because in the history of our guild we used quite a few different systems, or combinations.
Currently we've discarded the DKP in 10-mans after the first 2 runs. We had only just started Naxx10 and were already disenchanting items, because people were hoarding their dkp for an item that has a 0.1% drop chance. Since we were trying to progress, that was just ridiculous.
In the 10 mans everything is roll-based, we just ask people to keep in mind if it benefits only themselves or the raid, and to consider other's needs as well. There's more discussing about it on vent, and things work out just fine.

For the 25 mans we've started using our own DKP system again, which was fairly useless with the 10 mans.

Bosses net 5/10/15 dkp depending on 'difficulty'. Everything is non-restricted, with 5 dkp minimum bids, and 5 dkp increments. There were 5 dkp first-kill bonusses as well. We also have a dkp cap of 300. If 2 ppl go 'all-in' and they happen to have the same amount of dkp, they will roll.
Everyone gets a base dkp of 50, including trial members, so no-one starts at 0., and can start bidding right away. If an item drops, trials can bid too, they've put in the effort, so we're not stopping them. If a member has less dkp than a trial member, they've obviously been spending it on other stuff, so they shouldnt whine about it.

The only exception to the rules that we have are the Tier tokens.
Here we work with a bracket system, with the brackets being 50 dkp each time. This means we have the following brackets [1-49], [50-99], [100-149], etc. When a Tier token drops, the relevant classes in the top bracket are asked if they want it or not. We have no class priority. The people that want it will roll for the item, and the winner gets the Tier token for a fixed price of 100 dkp, as a result dropping down 2 brackets. Trial members are included in this rule, if they're in the top bracket they've worked for it, but if members are rolling against trial members, the members get a +25 modifier to their roll. This way the trial still has a chance of winning the token for 100 dkp, but the members have an increased chance.

We keep reminding people to think about the guild as a whole, and the guild progress, when bidding on items, which does seem to help and make our members think about what they're doing. If we really need to, we'll step in to remind someone that, for example, bidding on a cloth item as a paladin, when a priest is bidding on it as well, is plain stupid. Luckily we rarely have to step in, and our members generally behave :)

Also, in wrath, we have a shared dkp tabel for Obs25/Naxx25/Maly. If Ulduar/Icecrown comes out that will be a seperate dkp table, and dkp from the 'old content' cannot be carried over into the 'new content'.
We used to have seperate tables in vanilla-wow as well, with MC being seperate from BWL, and AQ40 being seperate as well. There was and is NO 'hoarding' dkp in the easy places to spend it in the 'hard' places.