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evilkyle
01-07-2009, 10:50 AM
WWS Report Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/ee5bfrovn2ybi)

Monday night we wiped 7 times on Sapphiron. First few attemps with 6 healers and the next few with 7. The closest we got was 23% in 9min with 6 healers. Every attempt after that was worse total dmg. Our longest fight was 12:30, but only got him to 30%.

I wrote up a summary on the guild forum about how FR gear will help make this fight easier since most of the problems we have are healing side, whether it be healers not getting out of blizzard or the healers not able to keep up the dps that can't get out of it.

I talked to the GM last night about having everyone gear in atleast 1 piece of FR gear with 3 being optimum. At first he seemed to think it sounded like a decent idea, but then he changed his mind and said "farming for all these mats would just be too much work for just one fight and I don't think its worth it".

He continued to say something to the effect of "you want dps to gimp themselves by putting FR gear on and drag out a fight that's already hard on healers even longer. If ppl would just do their job and move out of blizzard it would be easy".

While I understand FR isn't needed I think it will help a lot. It took our guild about 12 or so wipes in 3 seperate sessions to get down patchwork and 10 attempts on 3 different sessions to get down thaddius. I don't want to wipe x amount of times on sapphiron when it could be easily negated by a few pieces of FR gear.

Anyways I will prob be putting this thread on my guild forum so yall give me your opinion if you wouldn't mind.

Also should the healers be wearing FR gear too? Some Healers say it will hurt mana regen and they think it would definitly be a bad idea for healers.

Beatzz
01-07-2009, 10:56 AM
Personally i think for a new guild learning this fight FR is 100% necessary, it really lightens the work load of the healers. However too much FR and dps and healing slows, i made my raiders get 2 peices, very easy to farm in a day and easy to gem. With pally buffs they sit at around 300 + talents etc for mages. Honestly i really think your raid would benefit from FR. About the healers, they really should take it if they are clothies, 2 peices isnt too bad on mana and trust me theres 7 healers there with the reduced dmg the tank should be the main thing to be worried about.

Stearns
01-07-2009, 12:15 PM
Well, if its any help, full FR gear is mandatory for our guild, we've one-shotted him first time on every 10 & 25 main I've been in with this setup, includinig many of us who were seeing the fight for the first time. With FR, I consider him the easiest boss in naxx, and i'm not exaggerating. Gimping damage is irrelevant - its a healing and damage reduction fight when you're learning it, not a dps race. I also dont care about mana regen, threat, damage, avoidance etc etc. Its just a load of excuses not to be bothered with resist gear. If you dont want to get it, you wont come to that fight. Our success is proof enough for me on this point.

Of course, you do need to have your people move out of blizzard, and you do need people not to die during the aoe explosions.

Maybe you guys dont play as much as we do, but the 500gish necessary to buy the mats if you didnt want to farm seems like a trivial investment to me.

I do believe that skill is the most important factor. The best guilds out there dont bother with it of course :) If you're healers & tanks had a hard time on patchwerk, it may be related to the healers skill, and possibly the tanks & healers gear. Thaddius is most certainly a skill check; its a joke of a fight is players do what they're supposed to. Good luck!

Milric
01-07-2009, 02:17 PM
While a long time lurker on TankSpot, I registered just to reply to this topic.

If your problems are healer related, you need everyone to get Frost Resist Gear; preferrably the full 3 piece FR set for each armor type.

I act as a raid leader for my guild. We initially fought Sapphiron (without any FR gear) in 10 man mode. We got him down a bit, but we could see that the frost damage would be too much. I put out that all Sapphiron raiders needed to have 285+ FR from gear (Paladin Aura would cap from there).

After getting the gear we went back and downed him on the very first attempt. Later on the same day we took a 25 man team (with capped FR) and downed him in 25 man mode after a couple of attempts. The failed attempts on 25 man were due to issues with the pull and setting up; neither frost damage nor insufficient DPS were issues.

As both a raid leader and a healer, I can attest that frost resistance gear greatly simplifies this fight.


Also should the healers be wearing FR gear too? Some Healers say it will hurt mana regen and they think it would definitly be a bad idea for healers.

Healers need the FR gear as well. The FR resistance gear drops the healing load enormously. Consequently, healers are not using as much mana on heals. As a healer for those raids (Holy Paladin), I did not even need to use a mana potion.

Consider the mechanic. Sapphiron's Frost Aura is doing 1200 damage to everyone in the raid, roughly every second. Outside of the tanks, most characters would die from the Frost Aura damage in 15 to 20 seconds if the had no FR and received no heals. With capped FR, the average damage is more in the 300 DPS range. That ups their 'no heal' survivability to over a minute (if Frost Aura were the only damage). The aspect of the fight where this was most apparent was when people were scrambling to get behind the ice blocks in phase 2. The Frost Aura seems to still be ticking. So healers are trying to position themselves, one (or two) healers may be ice blocked, and everyone is taking 1200 DPS... Frost Resistance makes a big difference there.

If that alone does not convince you, simply consider that there is an achievement for downing Sapphiron without anyone in the raid having more than 100 FR. Do you consider any of the other Naxxramas achievements to be easy?

Best of luck to you.

- Milric

Eunuch
01-07-2009, 02:20 PM
My guild went into Saph and killed him in one night, after clearing spider and plague, and killed him, 4 of the attempts made where because of stupid mistakes, and they didn't last a long time.

Only pally arua on in raid.

evilkyle
01-07-2009, 02:22 PM
thx for all the responses.

Omok
01-07-2009, 02:43 PM
I have never noticed that frost resist helps that much, I had a paladin stack up over 400 frost resist and he did not take that much less damage. The biggest thing holding you back is people moving out of the blizzards most likely. And no gear will help people to do that. Work on the fundamentals first, then worry about frost resist. It may help some, but I am not an advocate of using it. Especially when your DPS is already low.

Lore
01-07-2009, 02:54 PM
#1: It will make it easier. Have everyone farm one piece, I'd suggest the chest. It took me about a half hour to get all the mats together (though I did purchase some).

#2: It's not collecting it for one fight, it's collecting it for three. You only use it on one, but you have to kill Saph to get to Kel'Thuzad and Malygos.

Honelorr
01-08-2009, 06:20 AM
My guild's never used any FR and we routinely kill him in both the 10man and 25 man flavours without any issue. And we are certainly not one of the 'top' guilds, to respond to an earlier post. Just need ppl to be awake and move from Blizzard/keep spread out before the frost tomb thingies. It helps if the tank is well geared, but that's it.

Krog
01-08-2009, 06:52 AM
Saph isn't hard if you have a brained raid , that knows how he works . I personnaly down him after 2attempts in ten man version without any FR ( not even pally aura ... he "forgot" ) and actually , we decided to wype on the first try , cause being a newb tank i accidentely drove his tail into the raid and got 4 dps .

( We had an amazing setup though :P => -1chamheal -1chamelio -1palaheal -1priestheal -1droodheal -1feral drood -1newbtank -1hunt -1mage - 1rogue ) Indeed we had 4healers for the 10man version , but two Bloodlusts just compensates =)

In 25man it is easier to have a piece of FR , even if it isn't extremely necessary . What you need is good coordination , awareness , and either FR either a good dps .

Fayre
01-08-2009, 11:03 AM
Take a very close look at what your healers are up to, would be my advice. Something is wrong when a single healer does over twice his next nearest rival (attempt 2). It's not spec - there's distinctly something wrong there. Tweaking the assignments might help.

Some people just need to be more aware of where they're standing and get out of Blizzards faster, for sure, which will come with time.

You could craft the FR but it truly isn't necessary. We ran slightly healer heavier than you on our first raid last week - 8 healers total - but pretty much oneshot the encounter without any crafted items. It didn't seem massively like one fewer would hurt.

sevve
01-08-2009, 04:35 PM
The only textbook advice to this is that while not needed, it will certainly make the fight easier.
If you think it's worth it for your guild, then it probably is. If your guild master doesn't agree, it may be hard to convince him.

Ferim
01-09-2009, 12:37 AM
I've gotten the "Under 100" achievement in 10-man. I main-tanked it and I think the frost resist helps but is not necessary as stated in the above posts, but if you run with people that have zero awareness other than their dps/heal meter, than you might wanna educate them on how important COORDINATION and SKILL are a must if you want to run a successful raid.

Good luck!

evilkyle
01-09-2009, 02:22 AM
Well after downing sapphiron tonight wearing 3 FR pieces and being at 417FR after pali buff I still took a ton of frost dmg. According to Wowikki 415FR supposed to reduce Frost Dmg by 75%. However I will show you some numbers from the WWS report

Me in Full FR gear - Avg Dot tick 962 resisted 40.6%
Priest w/ 130FR(buff only) - Avg Dot tick 1263 % resisted 16.6%
MT w/ 130FR(buff only) - Avg Dot tick 768 % resisted 25.1%

I have the most Frost resistance but still tick for more then the tanks avg tick. I was under the impression that the frost Resist lowered incoming frost dmg by 75% and it shows it was only lowered by 40%.

What it looks like is that wowwiki is wrong. It stated that 130FR from pali buff will reduce frost dmg by 25'ish percent, but it only reduced it by 16%. Now I had triple the frost resist of most the guys so if you did 16 x 3 for simplicity thats 48% reduction. However, I was only recued by 40% which leads me to believe 1. Blizzard has lowered how much FR auras and gear reduced the incoming dmg and 2. There is DM on Frost resistance



Yes it did help, I died 0 times out of 3 attempts, but it still didn't resist as much as I thought it was supposed to.

WWS Report Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/jiapuaijap1pw?a=x601fbb&s=1282-76450)


Anyone know facts about this?

orcstar
01-09-2009, 03:59 AM
Evilkyle, while I think, especially when trying to get a first kill, frost resistane can help very much on Sapphiron, I'd like to ask how the people are dying in your raid. Is it one, then the other etc. etc. etc. Are people getting killed from iceblock? Not running after it soon enough?

A strange thing I noticed is the Decursing: Mysterymage does almost all of the work. Laureen the shaman a bit, but the rest of people able to decurse (other mages and druids) don't seem to want to do it???

(Sapphiron got healed for about half a million because of the Drain Life)

Is the decursing done well enough?
Life Drain (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=28478):
This is a curse that drains 3063 to 3937 health as Shadow damage and heals Sapphiron for 6126 to 7874 every 3 seconds. Afflicts 5 random players every 24 seconds.

evilkyle
01-09-2009, 07:16 AM
Everyone knew that it needed to be decursed, healers were told not to. All dps that are able to decurse were told to do it and Ppl die one by one. I don't know how other ppl are dying because I can't watch them, but most the melee are dying to cleave accept for me & Deathaze. No one really dies to the iceblock + explosion. I know on one attempt I had to stop dps, run to a healer and jump in his face for about 5 seconds before I got a heal and I was at 15% when I went running to him.

I did notice who the idiots were though a few of the same ppl kept dying every time by not getting behind the iceblock, not getting out of the blizzard and then who knows why.

Volador
01-09-2009, 07:27 AM
We got to Saphiron last night in my 10 man. For reference we have a core of 6-8 skilled players, and have to pick up the other 2-4 (whom always seem to have some sort of mental defficiency). We got him down in 3 attempts with no FR gear, just a pally buff. The first attempt was a wipe due to people learning the mechanic. The second was the hunter (PUG) TRYING to cyborz the healer while shooting a boss that I had just charged (hadn't even hit 2 for my shield slam macro). #3 we won. I'm sure the fight is more difficult on 25 man, but given folks that understand mechanics is much more important than the FR gear imo.

orcstar
01-09-2009, 07:44 AM
Evilkyle:
While I still advise your raid to take 2 pieces of frostresistance each (except maybe the MT) you've got other things to work on. The execution is lacking: if 3 mages were told to decurse, then 2 of them are slacking. You often have that with mage. Threaten them with a gkick if they don't get decursive, we have no problems with also the druids and restoshamans decursing. Deaths to cleave are totally unacceptable, then there's either a big problem picking him up or on the positioning of the people getting cleaved.
Also: not getting behind the iceblocks is very very bad.

Here comes rules #1 of dps-ing in to play: a dead dps-er does very little damage.

But....I still would advise the frost resistance: this might just be enough relief for your healers to manage to also spot heal instead of healing the entire raid all the time. And in turn, keep enough dps-ers alive to actually kill the boss.

Ok: when I do the tactics on the fight I just tell a few things:
#1 "Huge Cleave and it is REALLY huge. When we start the fight while I (the tank) pick him up, hug the right wall and circle in. We dps him from right side only. Watch out for his tail."
#2 "Sapphiron has an insanely huge hitbox, you can melee him from up to 30 yards away from the middle of his hit box. Use moving forward and backward also to avoid blizzards"
#3 "Phase 2: stay away from the outer edge and from the yellow circle in the middle, if you get an iceblock on sloping floor the people behind it will still be hit by the blast. Group up but don't hug eachother before the iceblocks are all there."

that's about it.

Sangi
01-09-2009, 07:57 AM
I say get it. Honestly why make a fight harder? Even if the people in your raid are dieing to cleaves or blizzards or the explosion the frost aura still does a lot of damage. 1200 x 25 = 30,000 raid damage a second. You can reduce this in two ways. The first is to have no FrR gear and just burn him faster; make the fight shorter and therefor take less damage. This means that your healers have to have a larger healing throughput to deal with the frost aura damage and any incidental damage. With the lag that Naxx has been seeing lately getting caught in the blizzard happens. The second way is to reduce the incoming damage through FrR gear. This requires your healers to have less throughput but will lengthen the fight. If you have a few sources of replenishment then the added length is fine. Its a trade off in how you want to handle the fight.

I'm a big proponent of the FrR gear. We haven't even attempted him in the 25 yet. In 10 man we had issues with him when several of the DPS flat out refused to wear the resist gear because they were too leet. We went back the next night after replacing those people with those that would wear it and one shotted him. YMMV.

Glok
01-10-2009, 07:28 AM
It is absolutely NOT necessary if you run with capable healers and a reactive raid who feel they dont need to sit through a blizzard to top damage meters.

'Nuff said

Rennadrel
01-11-2009, 11:13 PM
270 Frost Resist is all you need if you are having trouble with Sapphiron. I just finished Naxx earlier this evening and I will explain how our gear and group setup was laid out.

Tank - Prot pally with Icebane Chestguard.
DPS - Rogue, Ret Pally, Warlock, Shaman, Arms Warrior
Healers - 2 priests and a Druid.

On our first attempt we wiped at about 80% trying the TankSpot method of having two groups on both sides, did not work cause we got too spread out and decursing was becoming tricky with the shammy and druid removing curses all the time. Second attempt the whole group moved to the left of the boss and fought him at max range for melee and casters were as far back as possible. The priests were able to focus on the tank, although it only required one and the other was helping with raid heals. Everyone had the frost resist chest piece plus I had Frost Resist Aura up and took minimal damage from the blizzard to the point where even if I got hit I could still move out of it without getting killed.

Kurgen
01-12-2009, 02:23 AM
Its to bad folks forget about the damage differences in 10 and 25.

In 10man you dont need it, 25 man its a good idea to have a peice or 2 makes it super easy, and your not stressing the healers who have the most stressful job in raiding normally.

Its one of the downsides to having 10 and 25man other than the boredom factor in offnight fun. Im sure anyone posting "you dont need any in 25man, isnt a healer hahahaaa" I have 2 additional sets crafted for my alts when time comes.

nessin
01-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Let me start out by saying I've not done the 25-man Sapphiron fight, only the 10-man. That being said, our raid actually had problems getting Sapphiron done the first few attempts where most of our people were using Frost Resistance gear. On our 7th or 8th attempt we all decided to go with none, or only one, piece of Frost Resistance per person and we took him down with no problems.

Granted, some of that may have just been practice on the fight, some of it may have been the melee DPS finally getting the hitbox right, and some of it may have been just overall dodging of the Blizzards more consistently. However, at the end of the day we went from struggling in the 20-50% realm, to downing him with no problems (including no mana problems as we had in the past attempts) by taking off our Frost Resistance.

Edit:
Our tank did stay in 3/3 Icebane stuff, everyone else took it off though.

Ohnoto
01-12-2009, 11:35 AM
We just did Sapphiron last night. It was our guilds first attempt on him and we one shot him.

Everyone had gotten 3 pieces of the FR gear, plus we had a paladin with FR Aura. My personal FR was at 417, and I imagine most everyones was around that also.

We had one death from a guy not quite behind the ice blocks, but he was battle rezed immediately, other than that the fight was not a problem and it took us less than 10 minutes to complete it. Healing went great and no one went too low at all.

If its your first time in there, do not first go for the achievement, get the boss down first and then start working on not doing it with as much FR gear.

We went on to killing Kel'Thuzad also, with only 3 attempts on him.

Inaara
01-12-2009, 11:39 AM
In Vanilla the frost damage was either entirely resistable or not resisted so FR was an absolute must. Keep in mind that there was also no CoH, PoH, PoM or Wild Growth so healing it was alot more difficult.

With all the changes to healing and the partial resists available now there is no reason to stack FR and imo it only gimps stats. We have never done it with FR gear and if there are any problems with survivability then an additional healer should be added.

Trysha
01-12-2009, 11:44 AM
The fight is not about beating the timers. His enrage is stupid long. No phase changes really except air phase. IF , and I stress "if", your healers are any decent you do not need any except the auras and totems etc. All the fight is...is to survive. Tanks takes a lot of dmg in 25 man though gotta keep atleast one topping tank off after each air phase quickly

Shake
01-12-2009, 11:50 AM
For the 10 man version, I found that I took less damage not wearing any FR gear at all...was just a matter of moving out of Blizzard if it happened where I was tanking. DPS on the other hand are still paranoid and gimp their dps in efforts to put some FR gear on. 25 though, I think is where the FR will be a requirement

Trysha
01-12-2009, 11:54 AM
Its isn't a req. in any version 10/25. It is doable, excuse my english, without any. Saph imo is oneof the easiest bosses out atm. Just need decent healers and he goes down.

Leytur
01-13-2009, 05:00 AM
I have never noticed that frost resist helps that much, I had a paladin stack up over 400 frost resist and he did not take that much less damage.

Your math kinda sucks. You realize FR is multiplicative right? Depending on how many people in the raid have it? So of course 1 dude in FR gear isn't going to help the raid much.

Fayre
01-13-2009, 05:53 AM
I think the thing to take away from this is: if you have strong healers, FR isn't needed. If you're undermanning on healers, don't have replenishment (particularly in the 10 man), or your raid is generally undergeared, it can be useful.

morelore
01-14-2009, 11:23 AM
[...]most the melee are dying to cleave accept for me & Deathaze.[...]

This is a big, big problem. There is no reason why anyone except the tank should be taking cleaves in this fight. And if they're confused enough to eat cleaves, they're probably getting hit by the blizzard also.

The correct place to stand when fighting a dragon is directly on the back knee. Don't go farther forward than that (especially on sarth), and don't go any farther back.

If your melee are taking cleaves, they either don't know the fight or are clueless. Educate them or replace them.

His hit box is so large that you can move in & out (without changing your position relative to his front & back) to dodge the blizzard and still hit him.

As for FR, this fight is a healer gear/endurance check. You need to balance the drain on your healers with shorter fights though more DPS. What works for you is going to depend on the gearing of your healers, how much DPS you lose from FR (and how much healing/mana regen your healers lose from FR), whether you have a replenishment, and so on.

We do him with healers and tank in regular gear, DPS in FR, although we do the 10, not the 25 man version.

Suci
02-03-2009, 07:47 AM
It's interesting to find out who's recommending frost resist gear and who's not requiring it. I would think a good percentage of healers would ask for it and the rest wouldn't ask/care for it. Give the healers some love. Wear that frost gear.

Kasath
02-05-2009, 03:13 AM
Our guild does it every week (and has from our first time in Naxx-25) without any FR. Sometimes we have as many as seven healers, though.

The materials aren't bad at all; if you're having problems, then have your DPS farm up a piece or two.

Make sure you're getting on your DPS about standing in the blizzard, and make sure you have a couple of AoE healers on your raid.

hvidgaard
02-05-2009, 07:14 AM
It's very independent from group to group I'd say. If you have some serious strong dps and a generally alert raid, then mana is not likely to be a concern and you can do it without any FR.

If the dps is not-so-good and/or people are numbnuts staying on the blizzards then you need more-than-average healers and the raid needs FR gear.

I've duo healed it 10man with no FR and no replenisment without even being stressed on the mana. I've trio healed it and run OOM at 30% despite having replenisment because of not so clever dps. It's all down to how well your raid works.