View Full Version : Nathyrra's Report Classes in Arena for S5

01-06-2009, 12:39 PM
In case you don't know: Nathyrra is Serennia. He rolled a DK for wrath. He's currently ranked #1 in the world for S5. I found this thread on the damage dealing forums and I figured I would quote it over here to see what everyone thought.

Thread: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Full Arena Class Analysis 01-05-09 (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14133217540&sid=1)

This is basically a detailed analysis of class balance with particular regard to the current arena season. It's obviously very long and thorough so I won't be surprised to get a lot of "TLDR" responses, but I spent a decent amount of time writing this so hopefully someone people can respond intelligently.

Class and Game Balance Report 05 Jan 2009

Backround: My main character is a Death Knight on Korgath server named Nathyrra: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&n=Nathyrra)

Any numerical statistics provided in this report are taken from the SK100 Arena Player Rankings: World of Warcraft Arena Ranking | SK Gaming (http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player)

Preface: The DK section will obviously be more comprehensive as I have the most WotLK experience with them, especially in arena. Also keep in mind that a lot of this is from an arena perspective, although PvE consideration is taken into mind for everything. People will obviously not agree with everything but something (suggestions) is always better than nothing. The opinions reflected here are my own and people very well may disagree with them. It is also by no means fully comprehensive as there are several outstanding issues that I intentionally left out and probably even more that were unintentionally left out.

-Pet survivability: Although pets should remain viable targets for a team as Blizzard has stated in the past, they are simply far too easy to kill right now. Even thorns or retribution aura can almost solo a pet in very short time. Pets either need to take a flat reduced amount of damage from other players or the effects of a player's resilience should be transferred to the pet, as well as spell penetration and spell hit for warlock pets. Pets in PvP should also be immune to taunt for 30 seconds after being taunted by a tank class in order to prevent spam macro taunting to further reduce their effectiveness due to the increased range on taunts.

-Dispel resistance: This is one of the biggest annoyances in arena and PvP that any top player can attest to. It is a factor that is completely out of the hands of a player to control yet can easily decide the outcome of a fight. There are so many examples of critical things that can have absolutely horrid RNG on dispel that it's not worth listing everything. There are 2 serious problems with dispel resistance right now, however. The first being the level at where they are provided. For warlocks, their dispel resistance comes coupled with increased damage but comes at a five talent point investment deep in the Affliction Tree. For Mages, however, they get the same amount of dispel resistance (30%) in their first tier of Arcane for only a two talent point investment from a talent that also reduces their threat caused by Arcane spells. This isn't really fair at all. The second problem, obviously, is dispel priority and dispel fail rate. The solution I was brainstorming was giving everything a certain dispel value. For example, let's say polymorph is a value of 100. Dispel resistance talents could further boost this value by a certain %, let's say 30% for Arcane Subtlety. Then let's assume that lesser effects have a much smaller value, for example, Improved Scorch and Winter's Chill both having only a value of 50. Dispel mechanics such as cleanse, dispel magic, etc should all prioritize the highest value debuffs first for dispel. A paladin's cleanse could have a dispel value of let's say 100, meaning he could dispel the polymorph in one shot normally, but it would take two if the mage has arcane subtlety. However, any carry-over dispel value will attempt to dispel another effect. For this example, the paladin's cleanse could remove both a single stack of improved scorcn and winter's chill at the same time (or 2 stacks from the same debuff, etc). This system, while obviously not perfect without tuning, is a great foundation for a more consistent dispel system and should be considered.

-Ring of Valor: Lots of game-breaking bugs with this arena map. You can cast spells through the gates before they go down such as sap, divine hymn, chains of ice, repentance, etc. If you cast a CC spell on someone on a pillar going up or even near a pillar it will almost always disconnect them. Stunning or rooting a player on top of the fire makes them take an enormous amount of damage. Pets often get stuck on or around pillars. There is absolutely nowhere to use line of sight for about 30 seconds into the match giving hunters a massive advantage on this map. I am under the opinion that nothing should be able to damage players in arena besides other players. Nagrand Arena (Ring of Trials) had their tornadoes from Season One removed because of this reason and I feel that the fire in Ring of Valor should follow suit. -Dalaran Arena: Warlocks should not be able to demonic circle teleport back up into the pipes. The center waterfall causing line of sight in addition to the knockback might be overboard, as well. RNG LoS isn't very fun for anyone.

-Blanket Silences: Blanket silence effects (not interrupts or school lockouts) need to either have diminishing returns or be PvP trinkettable. Certain teams can do a virtually endless loop of stuns and silences almost completely removing the chance for a player to even react. Sure, it takes a bit of coordination to pull that off, but the fact that it is possible to kill someone when they can't possibly even react with anything at all is a bit overboard. These effects include Garrote Silence, Counterspell Silence (not interrupt), Strangulate, Silencing Shot, shadow priest Silence, spell lock silence, etc.

-Resilience Item Budgetting: This should have honestly never changed. PvE gear is so popular right now because of the minimal tradeoff of losing a bit of resilience in order to gain a lot of offensive power. Any comp that revolves around immunities and cooldowns (rogue, mage, dk, paladin, etc) will benefit highly from using PvE gear because they just need enough cooldowns to get a kill, which PvE gear helps immensely for. Resilience should have meaningful effect and value once again. It should not be really even in question if a PvP'er wants to use a Deadly Gladiator item or an item from Naxx10, etc.

-RNG CC Talents: Blizzard rightfully got rid of mace stun yet retained several old talents that were almost as bad and even added in some new ones, including but not limited to: Starfall Stun, TNT, Impact, Frostbite, Blackout, Improved Hamstring, and Improved Wing Clip. Although certain RNG is often seen as acceptable such as having pain suppression dispelled or even failing mass dispel on a divine shield 5 times in a row, these types of RNG actually CC the opponent by immobilizing or stunning them. Something needs to be done to help curb these types of procs; whether it be changing the system entirely or simply giving them internal cooldowns.

Death Knights

-Arena viability: Currently, Death Knights are overpowered in arenas, but that was obvious to almost anyone. Their survivability even after 3.0.8 will be too high, due to the amount of defensive cooldowns that they can chain in rapid succession back to back while not slowing down their offensive damage output. Once their survivability is toned down in this regard (again, further than what 3.0.8 is changing), then Death Knights will finally have to play on an even turf with everyone else rather than the "God Amongst Men" level that they're at right now. Blood Knights still need the most work to be useful in arena, frost is catching up with the removal of howling blast cooldown, and unholy still needs tuning to be more balanced.

-Glyph of Anti-Magic Shell: Although this glyph is extremely overpowered on live, the nerf to it on the PTR (reducing it from 5 sec bonus to 2 sec bonus while retaining the 15 second additional cooldown) makes this glyph completely useless for Death Knights. No one in their right mind really will take that tradeoff. The glyph should be changed in conjunction with the change to AMS. I recommend changing it to remove all existing magical effects on the Death Knight but also decreasing damage done by the Death Knight for the duration of Anti-Magic Shell by 50%.

-Glyph of Blood Boil: This glyph also sees no use ever on live or next patch yet has the potential to be a useful PvP glyph for Death Knights allowing them to do something that they current lack: AoE snare. The reasons for it being unused right now are the incredibly weak effectiveness on it (30% snare) and also the short duration (5 seconds). The snare should be increased to at least 40% and the duration to at least 8-10 seconds for this to be useful.

-Glyph of Death and Decay: The cower is bugged right now in that a player is unable to divine shield, ice block, or berserker rage out of it when active

-AoE Taunt: Death Knights remain the only class that cannot taunt more than one target at a time (paladins currently have righteous defense and a single target taunt in 3.0.8). Blood Boil used to be an AoE taunt effect in beta but was changed. At current time, although Death Knights are great AoE tanks provided they have time to set up, they lack an AoE aggro snap for emergencies. I recommend putting a temporary taunt or at least increasing the threat component of Blood Boil to compensate.

-AP Reduction: Death Knights and Paladins have no AP reducing abilities such as Demoralizing Shout or Roar. The logic of assuming another class will do it for the tank is unacceptable for certain encounters where it is simply not possible or where your group comp does not allow for it. For Death Knights (Paladins later), I recommend giving either Blood Boil or Heart Strike an attack power reducing component to boost their usefulness.

-Ghoul Stun: The cooldown is too short for a 3-second stun. In comparison, Intimidation for BM hunters is 60 second base cooldown for their respective 3-second pet stun. Although the classes and specs differ greatly, I recommend increasing the cooldown on Gnaw to 30 seconds.

-Consecutive use of defensive cooldowns: I feel this needs to be tuned. Paladins got similar treatment with avenging wrath and divine shield not being usable within a certain time window of each other and I feel DK's need that to apply to AMS, IBF, and possibly AMZ.

-DK tanks are heavily reliant on Blessing of Sanctuary to be effective. Tanking is a whole separate pandora's box, however, but I felt that this should be mentioned as a general issue.

-Raise Dead requires a Corpse Dust (50 silver each) reagent to summon inside an arena, even in the prep room. This makes playing arena as a DK quite costly after enough games.

-Blood Boil: As mentioned, this ability sees very little to no use. A Death Knight doesn't even really need to have this hotkeyed anywhere as it serves little to no functionality currently and will be completely obsolete compared to the new Pestilence (without a cooldown) in 3.0.8. Any of the above changes will help remedy this.

-Death Pact: This ability is bugged and seemingly uncovering stealthed or hidden units at long range (~100 yards).

-Mark of Blood: This ability is considered a magic effect that is dispellable but can currently be casted on cloaked rogues, DK's with AMS on, and is also not removed by cloak of shadows after being applied. This should be fixed.

-Pestilence: This does not spread diseases if the target is killed by the Pestilence yet it uses the DK's blood rune in the process, deals the Pestilence damage, and even shows the animation for it.

-Strangulate: This ability is bugged for classes/specs that have silence duration reduction modifiers. Instead of decreasing the duration of Strangulate, it increases it. This needs to be fixed.

-Improved Rune Tap: This talent should swap tiers with either Bloody Strikes or Bloody Vengeance. It is simply too good and too needed for DK's and thus almost every DK is running Unholy/Blood for arena as a result. Blood is meant to be the premier self-sustainability tree with amazing healing capabilities. Improved Rune Tap should reflect that and be a more considerable investment in the Blood Tree. This talent is also a major reason why DK survivability is so good right now. A 5k+ heal off the GCD every 30 seconds available to almost any Death Knight is simply overboard.

-Blood Gorged: This talent is very redundant with Veteran of the Third War in terms of expertise. This talent also differs from its counterparts (Tundra Stalker and Rage of Rivendare) in that its damage bonus is not always guaranteed. If you are not above 75% health, this talent is only providing you with Expertise. The tree itself is also obviously a physical damage tree, allowing this talent in particular to be gimped to below full potential due to armor mitigation. I recommend removing the expertise bonus from this talent and replacing it with 3/6/9/12/15% armor ignore instead to remove the redundancy and to provide some sort of constant damage boost worthy of that tier of talent investment.

-Lack of Snare: Blood Knights get screwed in the department of snares. The only reliable snare a Blood DK has is Chains of Ice and if a DK wants to keep a target permanently snared in PvP (almost mandatory for arena purposes), using nothing but Chains of Ice will leave a Blood DK with only one disease at most ever on a target (Blood Plague). This lowers their damage considerably. I recommend either moving Endless Winter up in the Frost tree to be easier to obtain by hybrid specs or to give Blood a snare component on Heart Strike.

-Spell Deflection: This talent is bugged in combination with AMS. When a DK uses AMS while having this talent, the AMS seemingly absorbs nothing. I was killed by Sartharion hard mode's flame breath several times until spec'ing out of this.

-Dancing Rune Weapon: This talent often competes directly with Gargoyle for desirability and DPS increase. While this may also indicate that Gargoyle is overpowered, DRW is only a moderate DPS gain for a complete RP dump for only 20 seconds. I recommend increasing the base duration on it to 20 seconds and then adding an additional 1 sec per 5 additional runic power. I also recommend decreasing the cooldown on this to 2 minutes for Blood to once again compete in desirability, as it is dead last right now. Even Blood spec'd DK's for arena skip DRW.

-Frost Fever: This is bugged and does not uncover hidden units after being applied on them. Blood Plague, Death and Decay, and everything else works fine.

-Chains of Ice: Chains of Ice can be both an incredibly useful snare or one of the worst snares in the game. DK's have an incredibly hard time sticking to a target if it is getting repeatedly magic dispelled. The same is not true for rogues because of their base crippling poison application chance as well as talents and glyphs that modify this further. The root problem here is that DK's have no magic debuffs to realistically cover CoI with. The only magic debuff a DK can apply to a chained target is Razorice which is a highly undesirable PvP runeforge compared to Fallen Crusader and Swordshattering. I recommend making Chains of Ice a disease that does not count toward disease multipliers on a target. This would not only help Death Knights in some regards but also help out Shamans who have no magic dispel survive against DK's better. The only other healer without magic dispel are druids and they don't have cure disease either; not to mention they can shift out of snares.

-Icebound Fortitude: The stun immunity on this does not immune the effects of Maim. While I understand Maim is not technically a stun mechanic, this should be reviewed. It is a stun in every regard but is simply not counted as one for purposes such as IBF and Divine Purpose stun removal.

-Rune Strike: Rune Strike sometimes stays active once proc'd indefinitely until used, allowing a DK to set up ridiculous burst on a caster or any target really. Rune Strike should only give a small window of oppurtunity after dodging or parrying an attack similar to any other reactive abilities such as Overpower. I recommend allowing Rune Strike to stay active for only 10 seconds after a dodge/parry.

-Blood of the North: This talent costs 5 talent points to give virtually the same effect as its counterparts (Death Rune Mastery for Blood and Reaping for Unholy). The only difference being the negligible bonus to Blood Strike damage. My recommendation is to remove the Blood Strike damage bonus (maybe add it as a passive bonus to Killing Machine), and collapse this talent to be only 3 points. This would greatly help an already-bloated Frost tree.

-Unbreakable Armor: This talent sees very situational use due to it costing a frost rune and the inability to interrupt certain rotations, especially for PvE. I recommend changing this to cost runic power instead so that it actually sees more use.

-Chilblains: This talent is currently bugged and very lacking even when not bugged. It is bugged in the sense that it does not apply its effect (Icy Clutch) to any targets afflicted by Frost Fever through the means of Pestilence. It is also a lacking talent because it is overrided by chains of ice, or any snare from another class (because they're all better than or equal to it). This on top of being a very weak snare at 30% that can't really be relied upon. I recommend changing this to a 50% snare and apply to Pestilenced targets.

-Frost Aura: All of the aura talents provide something to a raid group usually except frost aura. The 80 resist from it is basically worthless when improved mark of the wild is 76 resist to all schools. It should be changed to something like reducing magic damage taken by the raid by 2/4% or so.

-Anti-Magic Shell: This ability seems bugged currently providing the DK with Runic Power even when taking physical damage while it is active when it clearly states "Damage absorbed by Anti-Magic Shell energizes the Death Knights with additional runic power." Physical damage obviously isn't absorbed so this should be fixed. My guess (since I played a warrior as my main before WotLK) is that it functions the same way as berserker rage does for warriors, except yielding runic power instead. I also suggest a runic power "lockout" during the use of AMS. AMS is a defensive cooldown that builds runic power when absorbing harmful spells and thus should temporarily prevent the DK from using runic power offensively during this time. This would help alleviate their damage output when virtually immune to casters for the duration.

-Army of the Dead: Is this the only level 80 ability that is not usable in arena? I feel this ability needs to be re-worked as it is almost never used in a raiding environment, either. Perhaps change it to something like Empower Ghoul, increasing the damage of your pet by 100% and making it immune to CC effects for 10 seconds, with a 2 minute cooldown.

-Unholy Command: This talent should swap places with Night of the Dead. Unholy command is a very strong talent for arena and should be exclusive to unholy DK's requiring them to invest deep in the tree to obtain, rather than to just dabble in to get it. This would also allow DK's to obtain Night of the Dead easier where the tree is less bloated.

-Shadow of Death: This talent needs to be disabled for arenas. The resurrected ghoul scales too well, hits too hard, and has too many HP. Not only that but the brief period of immunity after killing one makes them incredibly annoying to deal with in 3v3 and 5v5 especially. No one should have to kill a player twice over to get them "dead."

-Gargoyle: This talent should swap positions with Bone Armor in response to the 3.0.8 nerf to Bone Armor and considering the desirability of Gargoyle. However, some changes should be made to it. Its damage should be based on a DK's current AP at all times rather than just checking AP when summoning and using that for the entire duration. It should also spawn at ground level (also please spawn them at full HP) so that melee have a chance to kill them without doing a lot of line of sight work from the team being attacked by it. Gargoyle also needs to be fixed by sticking to your desired target (or even current target) rather than having its own aggro table and usually always switching to a healer in arena.

-Anti-Magic Zone: The base effectiveness on this talent should be reduced (to something like 8k-10k damage) and be scaled back up by a PvE stat such as Defense or Dodge+Parry (like the current Army of the Dead). Currently, this talent almost hard-counters a heavy caster DPS team (and even retribution paladins) and a smart DK team with this can win with very little effort involved.

-Desecration: The duration on the effect should be increased to 18 seconds to match the disease duration that Unholy DK's will have when spec'd with Epicdemic. Currently the effect falls off much sooner than a DK usually has to re-use Plague Strike.

-Bone Armor: The charges on Bone Armor should be reduced after a certain amount of damage is taken. Right now, it is very overpowered against DoT casters such as warlocks because the application and ticks of DoT's don't remove bone shield charges. The only way for a warlock, for example, to remove charges is to wand the DK, cast direct damage spells, or have their pet melee the DK, all of which are very unattractive options.

-Scourge Strike: This ability, like Seal of Command, deals magic damage and is subject to partial resists, however, it is also subject to being blocked. Both of these talents and all similar abilities (such other other paladin seals) should all be unable to be blocked like any other source of elemental damage (Hydross the Unstable crushing blows anyone?). Dodges and parries are understandable but blocking elemental damage really doesn't make sense.

-Plague Strike: The initial HoT remove on this attack that guarantees 100% removal of one HoT on attack should be considered a dispel while the 25% chance per tick removal should remain a remove. This would curb the tactic of spamming plague strike at druids to chain remove HoT's. Changing the initial remove to a dispel would also trigger a druid's lifebloom which is fair for at least the initial applying strike prevent these tactics.


-Arena viability: Overall druids are still good, just not nearly as dominant as they were in the TBC arena seasons. Overall they are much more fragile, as they should be considering they use leather. However, their limited emergency buttons and outs, are simply not enough to save them through the current level of damage output going on in arena. Balance druids are among the most popular because of Starfall stun and it shouldn't be that way. They're still a hybrid caster at the end of the day, so they don't necessarily need all the tools that a mage for example has, but the fact that they can put out just as much single target damage, far more AoE damage, and have the ability to heal and CC to boot, is a little too much considering everyone near a druid with Starfall on is basically chain stunned the whole time. Feral druids are doing considerably better and will improve especially mana-wise in 3.0.8. Restoration druids get absolutely trounced by mutilate rogues, and when the best poison cleanse in the game (abolish poison) isn't even worth the global for a resto druid to use when a mutilate rogue is on them, you know there's a problem.

-Glyphs: Negative aspects of druid Glyphs should largely be removed similar to how the DK ones were treated. Maybe adjust them slightly (Insect Swarm, Moonfire, etc) if they're too overpowered without the counter-balance.

-4pc gladiator Kodohide bonus: The 0.2 seconds off Regrowth was never really desirable and almost entirely useless in WotLK arena. The effect should be changed to something more desirable as most druids simply stack kodohide and wyrmhide set bonuses now that spell power has been consolidated. I recommend making it what the old 2pc t6 bonus was, which reduced the cooldown on Swiftmend by 2 seconds.

-Entangling Roots and Nature's Grasp: The bug of these spells showing as a "more powerful effect" being active when trying to apply the same rank of root even when spell power is not modified in between has existed since day one and is very annoying. This should be tracked down and fixed.

-Celestial Focus: This is one of the biggest problems in the Balance Tree. It effectively makes Starfall a massive AoE crowd control spell that also does enormous damage at the same time. Many druids have spec'd balance because all they have to literally do is run into an arena match, hit Starfall, watch everything get chain stunned, and just spam nukes to victory. It really diminishes any sort of skill required and is also bugged in the sense that the Starfire Stun effect (same name used for Starfall stun) is considered Physical while the Starfall itself is Arcane (magical) and thus bypasses cloak of shadows and anti-magic shell. I suggest changing the Starfall component of this talent to be a daze rather than a stun.

-Moonkin Form: Moonkins are very fragile (as are all druid specs) and many healing druids do wish to spec into dreamstate for the added regen as well as other benefits such as Insect Swarm. Especially last season, many druids got moonkin form to survive warriors and other physical classes better. In WotLK, however, even with moonkin form, melee can still tear through a Balance Druid. I recommend allowing a druid to heal from Moonkin form with at least instant-cast heals (HoT's, swiftmend, etc) in order to help alleviate this some.

-Spell Interrupt: Every other caster class has access to some sort of spell interrupt (counterspell, earth shock, spell lock, etc). except Balance Druids. Balance druids could definitely use a non-feral school lockout ability for various situations. I recommend adding a 4-second school interrupt on Typhoon if it hits someone while casting.

-Destealthing abilities: Every other healer type has some sort of cheap AoE spell to spam (holy nova for priests, fire nova or magma totem for shamans, consecration for paladins) while druids are only left with Hurricane that costs a very large amount of mana. Druids should be given some sort of cheap ability to use that has an AoE effect to uncover with.

-Ferocious Bite has the potential to do obscene damage due to the way it dumps all available energy into additional damage. Many druids dislike this and obviously many other classes dislike this even more. This should be changed for the sake of balance if not appeasing everyone.

-Maim not being considered a stun is rather overpowered in the sense that it can't be immuned with Icebound Fortitude or Removed with Divine Purpose. By all rights and purposes, it is identical to kidney shot except for these reasons and it should not be treated differently.

-Feral Charge (cat): Cooldown should give the druid a small/temporary speed burst to the druid to match that of Shadowstep.

-Tree of Life: Similar to Moonkin form being discussed earlier, I feel it would be fair and not really overpowered to allow druids to cast balance spells from this form. This would allow them to at least do more than sit in tree and spam HoT's like they're forced to do now almost due to the GCD's involved with switching out and back into tree form. Druids should also be able to remove curse from this form.

-Replenish: Proc chance should be increased to 25% to make this talent worth picking up, as it is too situational and mostly insignificant for any druid to bother picking it up right now.

-Gift of the Earthmother: Abolish poison should be added to the spells that this talent provides a bonus for.


-Arena viability: Hunters are much stronger this season than arguably ever before. Their instant ranged MS is sometimes situational but also very deadly. Beast Mastery is obviously the favorite spec right now due to how fast games are decided in. Once the BM nerfs go in and damage is toned down, I expect most hunters to be switching to marksmanship/survival specs for silence shot/lock and load bursts. Full survival specs seem completely non-existant and 3.0.8 will more than likely not change that.

-Scorpid pets: These still remain the dominant pet due to the lottery dispel system. Dispel system needs to be revamped or the scorpid poison should be considered a physical effect and not poison dispellable.

-Leggings of Colossal Strides: These are bugged and grant 400 ranged attack power not counting the agility bonus instead of the intended 200.

-Glyph of Deterrence: This glyph, even at -10 seconds off the cooldown of the new Deterrence (which is 60 second cd), might be too good. Frontal melee immunity and spell immunity every 50 seconds might need to be re-thought.

Beast Mastery:
-Master's Call: This ability should not have a chance to fail if the effect attempting to be removed does not have dispel resistance. It currently can and does frequently.

-Scare Beast: Cooldown should be removed if Turn Evil remains without a cooldown and far better when glyphed compared to Scare Beast glyphed.

-Beastial Wrath: Hunters should be immune to all Disarming effects (including Dismantle obviously) during the effect, similar to how Bladestormed warriors are immune to disarms and dismantle. As it is now, dismantling a BW'd hunter almost entirely negates the burst unless the hunter has a weapon chain.

-Wild Quiver: This is a very weak talent given its positioning in the talent tree. Something else should be added to it or it should be re-designed. Possibly recommend having it like a ranged Necrosis effect, making your auto shots deal an additional 10% nature damage.

-Piercing Shots: Another weak talent for being a deep talent investment. Should be increased to at least 3% armor ignore per rank (3/6/9%).

-Deterrence: The new deterrence in 3.0.8 has a serious flaw to it. The fact that it gives 100% parry instead of dodge seems good on paper not allowing warriors to overpower spam a hunter with it on. However, the drawback here is that in order to parry, a player must have a weapon equipped. Thus, if a hunter is disarmed before the Deterrence (or after from behind/while stunned), the hunter loses all of the parry bonus and only gains the spell deflect. I suggest changing the parry to dodge for this reason.

-T.N.T.: Blizzard has made many efforts to move away from the days of mace stun RNG. TNT when coupled with explosive shot is a ridiculous amount of the same RNG that mace stun once was. I can attest to this from the beta days when almost every hunter was SV because Explosive Shot was so good (before nerfs). To avoid this happening again, I strongly suggest TNT just flat-out increasing the damage on the abilities currently attached to it rather than giving them a chance to stun.

-Counterattack: Improved Hamstring was given a DR. Counter-attack should be the same, especially considering we'll be seeing much more of it after the patch with the new deterrence and hunter spec changes.

-Explosive Shot: This shot is currently checking both physical and magical immunities and absorbs. Considering it does fire damage, it should just do fire damage and be checked for that type of damage instead of physical at the same time.

-Wyvern Sting: This effect should be considered an incapacitate or some other type of effect that is not sleep. The ability for undead to racial out of this is rather crippling to hunters.


-Arena viability: Mages are the class that everyone loves to hate now thanks to the stigma that the 3.0 arcane spec has given them. This is a long dead horse so I won't go on and on about it, but the fact that arcane mages can do so much damage on the run with purely instant spells and have access to 10 second immunity is unfair to say the least. Frost mages are still very effective in arenas, while on the other end of the spectrum, fire mages are completely worthless for arena.

-Glyph of Polymorph: I don't know if this was intended by Blizzard or if Shadow Word: Death is intended to be a 0 second DoT, but this glyph prevents a priest from SWD'ing out of a potential poly cast. The act of doing this took good timing and a bit of skill on behalf of the priest and many find it silly that this trick does not work anymore.

-Glyph of Evocation: This is one of the strongest glyphs in the game for small scale arena, almost immediately allowing a mage to reset a fight by restoring virtually all of their HP and mana at the same time. This glyph should be toned down to 40% heal or so.

-Arcane Subtlety: This talent is far too good for it's placement in the tree, offering dual benefits and the best dispel resistance for only 2 talent points. I suggest swapping its talent tree location with either Arcane Shielding if Blizzard still wants it obtainable along with another tree's 51-point talent or with Improved Blink if they do not.

-Arcane Power: Similar to how avenging wrath and divine shield will interact in 3.0.8, Arcane Power should have some sort of window where a mage cannot go immune after having used AP. I suggest adding a 30-second hypothermia when using Arcane Power so that mages, like paladins, will have to choose whether they want to be offensive or defensive.

-Slow: A spammable snare and curse of tongues tied into one ability is too much for obvious reasons. There should be at least a 5-second cooldown on slow.

-Arcane Barrage: This talent needs to be re-worked. Everyone knows it and even mages agree. As I stated before, my potential replacement is kind of a random one that provides both an offensive and defensive talent in one. Possibly something such as an Arcane Haste spell that grants 50% spell casting speed bonus and 50% movement speed bonus for 10 seconds, and removes existing movement impairing effects on the mage, with a 60 second cooldown on the ability.

-Mirror Image: This ability must stop casting polymorphs. It annoys mages by healing targets that they don't want healed and it annoys everyone else because it is CC that you basically can never predict or see coming. It is also very overpowered in the sense that it does not share DR with a mage's castable polymorph. Mirror Images also destealth hidden targets when summoned; this bug should be fixed.

-Amplify and Dampen Magic: Can mages please get group/raid castable versions of these? It's rather long overdue and rather annoying to have to, for example, amp magic every single tank in a raid before a certain boss fight.

-Mage Armor: This armor is rather crippling for shadow priests and warlocks to fight against, especially with Arcane Shielding. The magical effect duration reduction should possibly be reduced to 30% and have it compensated by increasing spell power from a percentage of spirit similar to Fel Armor for warlocks. This would also give mage's a use for spirit outside of Arcane Meditation.

-Viability: I won't go into this tree really since it has never been arena viable outside of spec'ing down to Pyroblast to compliment Arcane. It lacks the instant damage of Arcane, the survivability of both arcane and frost, and obviously lacks the control of frost. I don't know if it was Blizzard's intent for this tree to ever become viable for arenas, but it would need a lot of work.

-Seperate DR timers: Frost currently has 4 things that can root someone in place: frost nova, water elemental freeze, shattered barrier, and frostbite. None of which, to my knowledge, share diminishing returns with any of the other effects. This is simply too much for some melee classes (especially warriors) to handle, or even have a chance against. I suggest combining the DR of at least frost nova and shattered barrier to help alleviate this.

-Spell pushback: Frost, unlike fire and arcane, has no pushback reduction from talents besides Icy Veins which is both on a cooldown and can be dispelled. This hurts frost mages tremendously when trying to cast spells in arena when icy veins is not up. I suggest adding 25/50/75% pushback reduction to Frost Channeling to help alleviate this and give some use for that talent.


-Arena viability: There's not much else to say except that the numbers don't lie and paladins are far and away the most popular and most highly rated arena class of season five so far. This is for several reasons but mainly because of holy paladin healers offering a durable healer in plate armor that also has immunity to escape the insane burst damage out there; and because Retribution paladins do enormous damage with such high utility right now. Protection paladins are also surprisingly viable but this could be related to the shield of righteousness bug that is fixed on the 3.0.8 PTR.

-Glyph of Turn Evil: This glyph is way too good in conjunction with the 3.0 turn evil that does not have a cooldown. It effectively completely shuts down a metamorphosis warlock, lichborne DK, warlock/DK pets, and DK gargoyle. The only way to balance this really is to return the cooldown back to Turn Evil, probably around 20 seconds to make it balanced.

-Divine Shield: This should be removed from the GCD. Many of the new defensive abilities such as the ones for DK's have always been off the GCD yet such an important one like DS for paladins remains on it. This should be changed.

-Judgements/Hammer of Wrath: Currently, these attacks are considered "ranged melee attacks" basically and cannot be absorbed by grounding totem or spell reflected. This often makes shamans and warriors defenseless against Retribution paladins. Hammer of Wrath can also kill a cloaked rogue, despite it doing holy damage. Although balancing this might be tricky, it certainly needs to be looked at, especially for the case of warriors, whom retribution paladins absolutely trounce on.

-Sacred Shield: This ability completely and utterly destroys warrior rage generation. It's almost a complete counter to them. Something with the ability needs to change or rage needs to be generated through absorbs such as this. Everything else is fine about the ability, however.

-Hands: All Hand spells are currently only 30-yard range, whereas cleanse and heals all have a 40-yard range. This can be rather annoying for holy paladins to deal with and should be increased to 40 yards to be consistent for all beneficial effects.

-Divine Plea: This is far and away the best mana restoring ability in the game due to its short cooldown, scaling with intellect, ability to use on the run, and ability to avoid dispels on it. It is very difficult to run holy paladins out of mana in the current state of arena, even with the current damage output, whereas other healer classes struggle in the same scenarios. The cooldown on this should be doubled to 2 minutes and paladins compensated elsewhere for mana return if needed.

-Improved Hammer of Justice: This talent needs to move at least one tier deeper into the Protection tree so that Retribution paladins don't have the absolute best stun in the game (7 second duration every 30 seconds without any setup required), while also having Divine Storm, in addition to their incredible burst damage, utility, repentance, and immunities.

-Divine Purpose: This talent was designed to be for Ret paladin utility but is being used by almost every holy paladin now to make themselves virtually immune to both snares and stuns. This talent should be moved deeper into Retribution, possibly swapping places with Sanctified Wrath, to ensure that it is almost always a full retribution paladin using this very powerful talent.

-Seal of the Martyr: This seal scales extremely well and was never really neutered like Seal of Command was so many times. It is now arguably the best seal for arenas because of how consistently hard it judges and can crit for extremely high amounts of damage. This seal should somehow be tuned down for PvP purposes while retaining its PvE functionality and power that it currently does.


-Arena viability: Right now, priests have to decide whether they want to spec for survival (focused will + blessed resilience) or spec to keep their teammates alive (pain suppression or guardian spirit). The obvious choice now if they prefer the latter is Holy not only because of Guardian Spirit but because holy priests are laughably more useful dead than they are alive due to Glyph of Spirit of Redemption. Although both healing specs can still compete rather well, Shadow priests require some much needed improvements in order for their spec to once again be viable in arena.

-Glyph of Mind Control: This glyph really has no use in PvE nor PvP. It should be changed into something useful such as reduced the casting time of Mind Control by 50%, giving it far more arena use than it sees now due to its long cast time.

-Glyph of Renew: The counter-balance element of this glyph should be removed.

-Glyph of Holy Nova: The counter-balance element of this glyph should be removed.

-Poison dispel: Priests remain as the only healer class that is unable to dispel poison. This should be changed for obvious reasons.

-Inner Fire: This buff should be changed to being undispellable similar to the treatment that mages and warlocks got with their armor. This would boost priest survivability a lot against teams that train the priest with offensive purging.

-Unbreakable Will: The talent seems rather inflated to require 5 points for only 3% improvement per rank. The effectiveness per rank should either be increased to 4% (20% at max) or the talent should be collapsed into a 3-point talent for 5% per rank or so.

-Penance: This effect should be immune to pushback caused from damage taken due to the cooldown and talent point investment required to get it.

-Guardian Spirit: The heal caused by the buff is unaffected by healing reduction effects such as mortal strike and the heal is also bugged in that it sometimes heals twice if two "would-be" killing blows landed at the same time, which can potentially heal the priest from 1% to 100% in a single proc. This should be fixed.

-Abolish Disease: This effect should mirror abolish poison and tick every 2 seconds for 8 seconds rather than every 5 seconds for 15 seconds. As it stands now, it does very little to help against Death Knights unless they use both Abolish Disease and spam Cure Disease while it is ticking, as well.

-Shadowfiend: This needs tremendous improvement. It is by far the worst mana returning ability for any healer class right now. It can be CC'd so many ways, die randomly, have horrible pathing or AI, be kited, be rendered useless if the priest is cycloned, etc. The shadowfiend should be immune to CC and scale upward with the priest's spirit, as well as transferring the priest's crit chance to the shadowfiend.

-Shadow Weaving: The removal of the old version of this talent (that provided shadow vulnerability magic debuff) has severely hindered shadow priest PvP viability due to no dispel cover anymore. The dispel system either needs to be looked at, the talent needs to be reverted or there needs to be another way for shadow priests to cover their DoT's so that they arn't immediately dispelled. 30% resist from silent resolve really isn't a solution for a pure DoT caster.

-Psychic Horror: Many priests would like to see this talent back to the way it was in beta causing the first half of a priest's fear to be considered a horror effect for the purposes of self-removal talents. This should be changed back to boost shadow priest survivability.

-Dispersion: The priest should be immune to CC effects (but not damage) for the duration of this effect, as you can easily negate their 51-point talent with almost any CC.

-Mind Flay: It needs to be fixed. When channeling mind flay, it should tick in even intervals (every 1 sec before accounting for haste). But it is more like arcane missiles and does the first tick after 1 second and the last 2 ticks rapidly at the very end. With this, if you don't wait for the animation to end, it will cut off the last tick. Even with no channeling macros, it cuts it off if you don't wait. Which doesn't sound like much, but this is a very large cut in shadow priest pve dps (without running numbers, I would say somewhere between 40 and 100 dps on Patchwerk).


-Arena viability: Mutilate is far and away the most popular and best spec for rogue arena right now. Shadowdance (subtlety) is definitely viable and there are many rogues out there who suceeed with a subtlety spec. Combat rogues are rare as expected and I personally haven't seen one in a match yet. Rogues do extremely well either with a healer or with a full DPS team and their burst is downright silly as mutilate spec; not only because of their damage but because of their MS/tongues/crip permanently on someone.

-Glyph of Preparation: This glyph resetting the cooldown on dismantle is questionable at best. Dismantle is one of, if not the best, peels for a melee class in the game right now. Although dismantle (and disarm) has diminishing returns, not only is it another half duration disarm if used on the same target but you can dismantle the same target twice as fast when the DR resets or even a 2nd target. I suggest removing dismantle from the abilities affected and instead add premeditation or gouge.

-Poison application rate: In TBC, poisons had significantly lower base application chance (20-30%) and was further increased by assassination talents. Now, with a 50% base chance to proc, as well as talents and glyphs to further increase that, along with deadly brew if mutilate spec'd, is complete overkill. Crippling poison is the best overall snare in the game; no question about it. Mind numbing poison is effectively a curse of tongues and the new wound poison is effectively a mortal strike. Having access to all of these that do not require GCD's to apply (since they can easily proc off white damage) is really too much. Poisons as a whole needs to be reviewed. A rogue basically gets MS without having to spec for it, tongues without having to use multiple GCD's reapplying it, and a 70% snare without having to waste globals and resources refreshing it. I suggest to lower the proc rate on all poisons by at least 15-20% and have Improved Poisons once again affect all poisons. That might make cleansing poisons even worth a GCD from a healer then.

-Disarm duration reduction: Rogues are currently the only pure melee or melee hybrid without access to a disarm reduction talent (DK's get a runeforge for it). I suggest incorporating 25/50% disarm duration reduction into 3rd tier Endurance talent or 2nd tier Slice and Dice talent in the combat tree to help this.

-Glyph of Adrenaline Rush: This glyph is currently bugged and reduces the cooldown of Killing Spree, as well.

-Deadly Brew: This talent by itself is the single largest bane to all casters and healers that a rogue will fight against in arena. It makes getting off any casted spell virtually impossible if they are using mind numbing, as well as having a permanent mortal strike and 70% snare all at the same time. The talent is incredibly overpowered and needs to be tuned as soon as possible to make arena somewhat balanced. As of right now, with this talent, even Abolish Poison is a complete waste of a GCD if a mutilate rogue is on the target because the poison dispels will either fail to dispel or be instantly reapplied after being dispelled. The easiest solution would be to remove mind numbing poison from Deadly Brew, that would still not solve the permanent MS solution due to the proc rate on wound, so something further should be done by Blizzard about this.

-Overkill: Lots of rogues have asked this to be unlinked from Mutilate as they really have no relation to each other and they feel that the point could be better spent elsewhere. It's not really game-breaking so I don't see why that couldn't be humored.

-Dismantle: This ability could stand to use a longer cooldown. Even 2 minutes would be fair on it given that it disarms ranged weapons and off-hands.

-Mobility: This spec lacks not only the pressure of assassination or subtlety, but more importantly the mobility. Without fleet footed and without shadowstep, a combat rogue is easily kited even with improve sprint(s). I suggest adding a movement speed bonus to a deep Combat talent such as Prey on the Weak to increase movement speed by 3/6/9/12/15% in addition to the current bonus. This would not completely make combat viable, but it's one of the bigger concerns.

-Unfair Advantage: A talent this deep in a primarily PvE-oriented tree should have at least some passive benefit and not be entirely situational. I suggest making this talent give a 50/100% chance to generate an extra combo point when the rogue crits a special attack in order for the combat tree to have a seal fate/HAT equivalent.

-Relentless Strikes: This talent has been brought up numerous times in the past and despite how overpowered certain rogue aspects are, this talent should really be collapsed into a three point talent instead of five.


-Arena viability: Restoration shamans are arguably the weakest healers right now due to lack of instants to use and the amount of lockouts/damage going around. Enhancement shamans can put out great damage but are also very fragile even when shielded with shamanistic rage. Elemental shamans are not much better off than they were in TBC, especially considering their one good "peel" of Thunderstorm requires them not to spec into Nature's Swiftness; a tradeoff that not many PvP elemental shamans would want to make.

-Resto shaman survivability compared to other healers: If you focus a 49/0/22 paladin, you have to deal with virtual stun immunity, very high crit chance on holy shock and other heals, and obviously divine shield. If you focus a priest, depending on what spec they are, you have to deal with blessed resilience AND focused will, guardian spirit or pain suppression, desperate prayer, and a variety of instant heals/shield. If you focus a druid, you have to deal with natural perfection, nature's swiftness, swiftmend, three different HoT's, bear form, and fast casting heals (nourish). When you focus a shaman, you really only have to get by Nature's Swiftness and they're pretty much screwed after that. Sure, you can drop totems when you're silenced or CS'd now or even Riptide, but one grounding totem usually doesn't change the outcome.

-Astral Shift: This should be moved at least mid-tree, preferably entry level elemental so that shamans of other specs could possibly have access to it. This would help their survivabilty a great deal, which it is dire need of help right now.

-Hex: I suggest lowering the cooldown on this ability to 10-20 seconds but making the Hex twice as easy to break from damage. This would give shamans a good bit more defensive capabilities but not overpower them to provide unstoppable burst.

-Mana issues: Despite having water shield, enhancement shamans have much more utility and GCD's to use than retribution paladins (the other mana using melee hybrid). Retribution paladins, however, have judgements of the wise, replenishment, divine plea, and blessing of wisdom if they get desperate. Enhancement shamans, however, only have water shield, mana spring totem, and shamanistic rage to restore mana. The biggest problem with sham rage is the fact that with the current state of arena (and even last season), enhancement shamans had to routinely use sham rage as a simple damage reducer (read: pain suppression) because they tend to get focused most often by other teams. When doing so, they typically give up the mana return functionality of it and are left with basically nothing if they go oom afterward until it comes back up. Shamans can also be easily CC'd during the duration of it. I suggest possibly adding Water Shield to the Static Shock talent but at double the effect for Water Shield (leave lightning shield where it is). This would help their mana return in PvP quite a bit.

-Earthen Power: This talent does not remove Improved Hamstring and Improved Wing Clip. Although they are technically roots, they're still attached to their snare component and the fact that Earth Power removes the hamstring itself but leaves a shaman with the improved one is rather silly. This should be changed and potentially remove root/freeze effects, as well. If this is not desirable or the change mentioned in Feral Spirit, Earthen Power should be moved much higher in the enhancement tree to be attainable by cross-spec shamans.

-Feral Spirit: The wolves summoned by this could really stand to get some AoE spell avoidance as they typically die easily in raids and arena. I suggest maybe adding 35/70% spell avoidance like Night of the Dead received for DK's into Earthen Power to give it some more use.

-Riptide: As I've suggested before, I think Riptide should give the additional effect of making your next chain heal instant cast, in addition to the current effect. This would help resto shamans in arena a great deal in staying alive vs. many teams, especially rogues where they basically live on the edge as it is with Earth Shield until they go out of mana.

-Mana Tide: This should be unlinked from Restorative Totems for (hopefully) obvious reasons, and/or at the very least remove the swirling pulse graphic when it is spawned. A good team will notice the totem regardless of the incredibly huge "kill me" beacon swirling around it. I also suggest lowering the cooldown on it to 3 minutes in order to be more equivalent to other mana returning abilities.


(lots of PvE related issues here)
-Arena viability: Warlocks suck a mound of ass the size of Magtheridon. Sure there will always be exceptional players that can still make them work, but it doesn't make the class any less terrible than it truly is right now. No spec is a good one, metamorphosis is more counter-productive than it helps, pets die in two globals, etc. This class needs the most help of any for arena purposes.

-Glyphs: The majority of warlock glyphs out there are very lackluster for both PvP and PvE right now. I won't bother suggesting something for every single one that is lacking but Blizzard should really review the glyphs for this class pretty closely. However, one specific one that I will mention is that Glyph of Conflagrate should act similar to Flame Shock and Swiftmend glyphs, allowing a warlock to conflagrate without consuming the Immolate.

-Pets: Although pets should be considered viable targets and a warlock should have to keep an eye on the pet, right now, most DPS classes can kill a pet behind a pillar in a matter of 2-3 seconds. If damage isn't tuned somehow, pets will definitely need their master's resilience transferred to it at the very least, although I feel that spell hit and spell penetration should transfer over, as well. This would aide a great deal in the amount of resist that felhunters currently can get against certain classes and comps.

-Soul Shards in arena: Although games don't go anywhere near as long as they used to so the problem isn't as annoying as it was TBC, requiring shards for various abilities such as healthstones and shadowburn, as well as pets, is a really outdated concept. No other class has to manage reagents like that and spend time between games gathering more. Warlocks should be no different.

-Curses: Many classes have been given the equivalent of warlock curses in the form of talented or untalented debuffs. In many ways, alot of the improved curse talents in the affliction tree are outdated, and the whole 1 curse system feels out of place. In pve that means locks will want to be doing CoA or CoD (more CoA than anything now, it gains more from talents than CoD which is only really used by demo locks). PvE locks take talents like malediction not so they can cast CoE, but for the spellpower bonus. Curse of Agony and Curse of Doom both should have get the pally "hand" treatment, where they no longer count against status affect curses, but both CoA and CoD cannot be on the target at the same time. I.e. A lock could then have both Agony and Tongues up at the same time, but not Tongues and Weakness or Agony and Doom.

-Improved Fear: The Nightmare effect should also apply on the end of a Howl of Terror. This would help warlocks a decent amount defensively.

-Improved Howl of Terror: This should potentially be moved further up in the tree to be more accessible by hybrid warlock specs.

-DoT's: These need to scale with crit. Not really asking for dots to crit, just that they increase their damage by 1/2 of the warlocks crit %. Similar to the scaling that shadow priests received for their dots. And this needs to be baseline, affliction isn't the only warlock spec that used dots. If spellpower scaling needs to be changed back to TBC levels in order for this change to go through, then do it.

-Grim Reach: This spell not increasing the range of Shadowbolt hurts warlocks both in PvE and PvP. It should be added to it or combine Destructive Reach into this talent, possibly also moving it to early-tree demonology.

-Dark Pact: Dark pact and imp felhunter are terrible right now. Dark Pact needs to be changed to scale identically with imp lifetap to be made worhtwhile, maybe taken off the GCD or placed on the pets GCD. This would go along way to helping this talent synergy out.

-DoT duration: If affliction spells all get the same duration, make sure it is to 18 or even 21 seconds, and not down to 15 like UA. Don't nerf CoA down, keep it at 24 seconds, or make late tier talent that can reduce its duration while keeping or increasing its damage.

-Haunt: Haunt needs to either become instant cast, or remove the travel time. This spell is very annoying to keep up, and if resisted creates a gigantic headache for the warlock. Changing everlasting affliction back to refreshing Corruption from shadow bolt spam would help reduce this headache.

-Eradication: Eradication is very lacking, the damage improvement for more than 1 point is very small. I'm really not sure what can be changed here other than massive scaling on the proc chance per point or reduction in cooldown per point.

-Metamorphosis: This talent right now is extremely terrible in arena as it usually hurts the warlock more than it helps them. This is largely due in part to paladin Turn Evil not having a cooldown in addition to the Glyph of Turn Evil that makes it instant cast. Not only is there turn evil, but also Holy Wrath and Banish. Metamorphosis, being as situational as it already is, should not have "counter-balance" elements to it, especially not ones that render the warlock completely useless if he uses Meta.

-Low tier demo: still feels lacking for PvE and like a bunch of filler talents for PvP. This tier needs to lose the improved demons, bake those into the pet and remove them. Maybe move imp imp into mid-deep destro somehow. The idea behind many of the following talent changes is to change early demo talents to buff the warlocks other spells, something that is more attractive than the other trees. Right now the only reason for a warlock to invest in the early demo tree is for demonic aegis. These changes would make early demo feel much more useful.

-Spell hit: Combine cataclysm and suppression into a 3point early demo talent that improves all hit by 1/2/3 for master and demon.

-Pushback: Fel Concentration and Intensity should both be combined into a low tier demo talent.

-Threat reduction: The threat reduction component of improved drain soul and intensity should be combined into a low tier demo talent that also improves the effect of soul shatter.

-Fel Synergy: Move fel synergy down into an early demo talent, maybe combine it and imp healthfunnel. It is currently very easy for an imp or felhunter to die, and once CoH/WG get nerfed it will get easier since they will receive fewer aoe heals.

-Infernal and Doomguard: Infernal and Doomguard should be changed into companions from pets, and their damage reduced accordingly. Currently these 2 pets represent a huge dps increase for affliction locks because the felhunter does **** for dps, while demo and destro rely on their pets to buff them.

-Shadow and Flame: Currently bugged? Only increases incinerate/shadowbolt/chaos bolt's spellpower coefficient by 20%, ie incinerate gains 20% of 71% for 85% final coefficient, a downgrade from TBC when this granted incinerate a 91% coefficient.

-Shadowfury: Possibly move this up in the tree similar to the Improved Howl of Terror suggestion in order for cross-spec warlocks to potentially have access to it.

-Pet buffs: The imp buff demonic pact and the felhunter buff fel intelligence both need to be equivalent to Commanding shout and Arcane Intellect/Divine Spirit when talented. Pet survivability in pvp needs to be addressed as well, scaling with resilience etc. Pet scaling in general needs to be fixed, pets scale too well with raid buffs, far better than with improved gear and when left unbuffed their dps suffers enormously. Baseline scaling with crit and haste would help a lot.

-Succubus: This pet should be just as effective as the felhunter at dps. Both pets in general need to have their base damage improved somehow. Maybe change Lash of Pain and Shadow Bite to include a stacking buff that improves the damage of the pet overall, similar to demonic frenzy but much weaker. The ideas here are to make the succubus more anti-melee while keeping the anti caster abilities of the felhunter. Seduce should be changed into a short duration (4-5s) incapacitate effect on a 1.5 sec cast, 30+ second cd without the channeling to maintain that doesn't share DR with fear. Similar to druids maim, with the same damage to break as fear. Also, while the succubus is invisible, allow it to provide improved stealth detection and remove the improved stealth detection from voidwalker.

-Felguard: This pet really needs a 4th ability on its pet bar. Many ideas are all pvp related, and I would have to agree. A snare, kick, or disarm all come to mind. Maybe something that kicks and disarms the target, since it is supposed to be the ultimate demo pet.


-Arena viability: Although warriors are still strong in arena if played well, their value and utility has diminished a great deal in WotLK. They are still an overly simplistic class that is limited by class design to how much a talented player can do on a warrior. Although warriors gained very innovative and useful abilities in TBC such as Spell Reflect and Intervene, the two new abilities warriors received in WotLK (enraged regeneration and heroic throw) are both entirely worthless for arena basically. Not only did warriors not improve defensively to counter the new damage out there, they still utilize flawed stance mechanics that are very outdated in design and practice.

-Rage generation: The more priest shields and now paladin sacred shield scales, the more it absolutely destroys a warrior's rage generation. Having purely physical damage is bad enough but not being able to generate rage for extended periods of time, and having to use the little rage gained on obligatory snares every few GCD's is not adequate by any means. Rage generation needs to be reviewed, especially when hitting shielded targets.

-Rage dumping: The mechanic of only storing 10 rage (without tactical mastery) when switching stances is an outdated one at best. Although DK's do use a dual-resource system, they are far from penalized for switching presences. Even druids have furor to instantly to generate a minimum amount of energy and rage.

-Berserker Stance: Oh look, it's a dead horse. Let's beat it some more! The 10% damage increase needs to go. This penalty hasn't been acceptable since pre-TBC. It's what makes warriors one of the easiest targets in arena to kill if you catch them off-guard, moreso than any other class.

-Taste for Blood: This talent has effectively no use, ever, in PvP or PvE. The whole concept of using Battle Stance has never worked because of the lack of rage dumps on-demand and the loss of 3% crit. I suggest changing this talent to increase the damage of overpower by 10/20/30% and to allow the use of Overpower 33/66/100% of the time after being parried.

-Sudden Death: This talent is incredibly RNG slanted and can absolutely wreck a caster if a warrior gets back to back sudden death procs. Despite having control of an entire arena match, a caster could easily lose if the warrior gets rolls a 1 to 9 out of a 100 twice in a row. I suggest changing this to possibly 4/8/12% chance on hit but having a 5 second internal cooldown on it to prevent RNG gibbing with it moreso than it already is.

-Improved Mortal Strike: MS is the staple of an Arms warrior in PvP. It needs to be able to penetrate shields and penetrate armor even in this day and age of paladins and death knights, especially. I recommend adding to improved mortal strike the additional bonus of making MS ignore 10/20/30% of a target's armor.

-Bladestorm: Allow a warrior to use a battlemaster trinket while Bladestormed so they don't have to click it off or use a cancelaura macro just to use it.

-Weapon Mastery: Swapping this with Improved Execute would go a long way to helping warriors in arena and actually allow arms warriors to get a real weapon enchant. Even switching it with Enrage would be fine given that the placement of enrage is an outdated concept of the old 31/20 warrior days.

-Heroic Fury: This should remove all movement impairing and immobilizing effects instead of just the latter to give it more use and benefit.

-Furious Attacks: The PPM on this effect should be increased moderately, as it even tends to fall off stationary targets such as training dummies. It can't realistically always stick to a target in PvP knowing this.

-Improved Spell Reflection: Return the cooldown reduction on this talent that was originally given in beta. Warriors are one of the weakest classes when focus fired after their shield wall is gone because of how easy it is to waste a spell reflection or even spam damage after it's gone.

In closing, I would just like to say that people who do nothing but cry about problems that exist in the game (especially in arena) but make no attempt to offer solutions are not helping the problem in the slightest.

The one thing I ask of everyone reading and responding in this thread is to keep it civil and constructive. I'm sure this could turn into a great thread consisting of feedback and new ideas on the topics at hand.


GC's Response:

A lot of good feedback in here. Thanks. Blueing this to make sure it gets lots of discussion. Let's keep it constructive please.

01-06-2009, 12:50 PM
Beh, i have issues with Serennia...he has this way of rubbing off as a little too much of a hypocrite and tends to only view things that could potentially benefit his own class. Many times he's been blamed for biased views and I dislike the fact he had to reroll to the Death Knight class as I can only imagine the nerfs he may bring to the class. /sigh.

Maybe I'm pessimistic but even being number 1 in the world doesn't mean you know everything inside and out of the game. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt being the new year and all but I won't hold my breath.

01-06-2009, 01:03 PM
the problem with 99% of his feedback, at least of the little bits I read (I don't have time to read the whole thing right now) is he focuses on his suggested fixes and not the problems themselves. "This is overpowered, here's how to fix it" or "Other classes have something like this, so this class should have it too" are pretty frequent. He also focuses far too much on one single problem at a time without taking in the whole.

A lot of his suggestions are silly. He complains that Paladins have the best stun in the game (7 seconds, 30 second cooldown, glyphed and talented) but doesn't explain a) why they shouldn't, or b) why it's overpowered. He fails to account for the fact that a 7 second stun might as well be a 3 second stun when considering all the stuff people can use to break them as well as diminishing returns. What I find most ironic is that his very next suggestion for the Paladin class is a change to Divine Purpose... because it makes it too easy to break stuns. /boggle

Really, he spends too much time on the what and not enough on the why. Things like "-Glyph of Renew: The counter-balance element of this glyph should be removed." don't mean anything to the developers. All he's saying there is "I don't like the counter-balance element of the Renew glyph" at which point he might as well be saying "I don't like taking damage".

His quote at the end pretty much indicates he hasn't been paying attention to what Blizzard (specifically Ghostcrawler) have been telling everyone basically since the DPS/Tanking/Healing forums were opened:

In closing, I would just like to say that people who do nothing but cry about problems that exist in the game (especially in arena) but make no attempt to offer solutions are not helping the problem in the slightest.

It looks like the discussion that's resulted from his post has taken on a more useful note, but Blizzard has made it very clear in the past that they're not particularly interested in hearing how we would make the game if we had their jobs, they'd rather hear what we don't like and why. "I got 1shot by an Arcane Mage and I don't like not being able to fight back" is significantly more useful feedback than "Rework Arcane Barrage to be an offensive/defensive cooldown ability."

Blizzard prefers the crying to the solutions. Tell them what's wrong and let them do their jobs. Don't try to do their jobs for them.

01-06-2009, 01:05 PM
like he says ... warriors need to get buffed bigtime:)

01-06-2009, 01:09 PM
Btw - Ghostcrawler's response was to help build more discussion, and wasn't until page 7. It wasn't a response to the manifesto on page 1.

01-06-2009, 02:09 PM
To put it bluntly, PvE suggestions from even the best PvPer in the world are pretty pointless. His post would have been infinitely more valuable had he not even tried to make any PvE recommendations. It really just detracts from what he's trying to accomplish and ultimately, I think he just did it so that someone couldn't use the old "you aren't taking PvE into account with your suggestions" argument.

01-06-2009, 02:12 PM
hrm, very interesting read. makes me sad that I have no one to pvp with or I'd give my own feedback as well =(

01-06-2009, 02:21 PM
I thought the post was decent. In particular I thought the call to make resilience matter again was fair. PvP and PvE should be their own little worlds. A player should not have to spend their time raiding to be PvP viable. Likewise, PvP gear should be useless for PvE. Spending your time in PvP should reward that part of the game and vice versa. As it currently stands it feels like you can spend all your time raiding and "walk-on" to PvP with good success. PvE gear should have less utility than the crafted PvP gear in a BG or arena.

They have already proven that they can alter the stats of gear based on character level, why not on location as well. If you take PvE gear into a BG instance or Arena instance have the stats change. If you take PvP gear into raid content do the same.

01-11-2009, 03:08 AM
A lot of his suggestions are silly. He complains that Paladins have the best stun in the game (7 seconds, 30 second cooldown, glyphed and talented) but doesn't explain a) why they shouldn't, or b) why it's overpowered. He fails to account for the fact that a 7 second stun might as well be a 3 second stun when considering all the stuff people can use to break them as well as diminishing returns. What I find most ironic is that his very next suggestion for the Paladin class is a change to Divine Purpose... because it makes it too easy to break stuns. /boggle

Do you read what you write before you post it? You clearly must not pvp and have no idea what you are talking about, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. SEVEN SECONDS OF STUN ON A 30 SECOND COOLDOWN. Paladins can obviously easily apply stuns, and as pointed out with Divine purpose they can easily break them. Other classes cannot. See the problem?

To put it bluntly, PvE suggestions from even the best PvPer in the world are pretty pointless. His post would have been infinitely more valuable had he not even tried to make any PvE recommendations. It really just detracts from what he's trying to accomplish and ultimately, I think he just did it so that someone couldn't use the old "you aren't taking PvE into account with your suggestions" argument.

Again, do you read what you post? Just because he is the best PvPer in the world, doesn't mean he does not PvE. Believe it or not, some people enjoy multiple facets of the game, or at least try to. He leveled to 80 and cleared Sarth with 3 drakes by December 2nd. Every heroic dungeon achievement is completed, he has his red proto drake. Nearly every raid achievement completed, on both 10 and 25 man. I would like to see someone who has done better.

How could it possibly be more productive without taking PvE into account. The DK section is extensive in both areas as the introduction stated. His post is almost entirely focused on PvP, which is what he is focused on and his suggestions are not demands, but merely suggestions.

Anyone who PvPs right now knows how terrible of a job Blizzard has done concerning class balance, player suggestions should be welcomed. Especially from someone who is on the top of the game.

01-11-2009, 07:28 AM
Do you read what you write before you post it? You clearly must not pvp and have no idea what you are talking about, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. SEVEN SECONDS OF STUN ON A 30 SECOND COOLDOWN. Paladins can obviously easily apply stuns, and as pointed out with Divine purpose they can easily break them. Other classes cannot. See the problem?

You obviously pvp, but i don't see a big deal about a 7 second stun on a 30 second cooldown that can be reflected or dispelled. Their burst damage is what worries me. (the only big deal i have with hammer of justice is when there's 3 or more retadins around me, but by the time i got the 3rd HoJ, i'm pretty much dead anyway :P)

Again, do you read what you post? Just because he is the best PvPer in the world, doesn't mean he does not PvE. Believe it or not, some people enjoy multiple facets of the game, or at least try to. He leveled to 80 and cleared Sarth with 3 drakes by December 2nd. Every heroic dungeon achievement is completed, he has his red proto drake. Nearly every raid achievement completed, on both 10 and 25 man. I would like to see someone who has done better.

You forget that to be PvE viable, you don't need to be that good. All you need is a very decent group, some coordination with 19 more guys (for the "Dedicated Few" achievs) and away you go. It hasn't changed THAT much since you could go AFK and still profit from Molten Core when you had +30 guys to carry you through the instance. He may have all those achievements, but that doesn't make him a PvE authority.

I read most of that wall-o-text, and i'd have to agree with everybody else. I don't like Serennia's "Here's how you should do it instead" posts, but i thank him for doing it because maybe Blizzard can get something out of that. Someone's gotta do it, right? :P

01-11-2009, 07:53 AM
To put it bluntly, PvE suggestions from even the best PvPer in the world are pretty pointless. His post would have been infinitely more valuable had he not even tried to make any PvE recommendations. It really just detracts from what he's trying to accomplish and ultimately, I think he just did it so that someone couldn't use the old "you aren't taking PvE into account with your suggestions" argument.

His warrior is a tank for Drama if I'm not mistaken, so I think he knows PvE just as well as he does PvP.

01-11-2009, 07:55 AM
hrm, very interesting read. makes me sad that I have no one to pvp with or I'd give my own feedback as well =(



01-11-2009, 08:13 AM
Forgive the obvious question here: hammer of justice is a 5 second stun, isn't it? I can't check the tooltip right now but I'm pretty sure it's not 7 seconds.

That said, Blizzard needs to put the arena BS back in it's proper perspective. I'm getting kind of sick of people who lolfail 10 games once a week having better gear than me when I raid 3+ nights a week. :(

01-11-2009, 05:38 PM
He is complaining about DKs? LMAO

01-12-2009, 05:20 AM
Forgive the obvious question here: hammer of justice is a 5 second stun, isn't it? I can't check the tooltip right now but I'm pretty sure it's not 7 seconds.

That said, Blizzard needs to put the arena BS back in it's proper perspective. I'm getting kind of sick of people who lolfail 10 games once a week having better gear than me when I raid 3+ nights a week. :(

Glyph of Hammer of Justice - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=57027) + Hammer of Justice - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=10308) = 7 seconds.

Well, you have obvious advantages of raiding. You fight multiple bosses so you have the potential to get a lot more gear than someone who takes 4 weeks to get enough points for one thing, plus they can't just lose their way to it, they have to have the personal rating for it.

01-13-2009, 02:16 AM
His warrior is a tank for Drama if I'm not mistaken, so I think he knows PvE just as well as he does PvP.

He said Taste for Blood is useless in PvE....I think your wrong lol. I hate to say it but what is destroying PvP imo is Blizzards desperate attempt to synergize all the Talent Tree's. The original class weren't just built in this new age though and Blizzard clear doesn't have the mental capacity to handle the job. Therefore they couldn't make Arms a viable PvE spec without completly leaving it for dead in PvP, its just too much for them to handle. Before classes had staple tree's or builds for each roll....I hate to say it but most classes need to revert to that method, this way it's easier to balance.

You wanna PvP go Arms...DPS...go Fury...Tank go Prot. Get over it. Whether your Duel Wielding or using one one-hander a damage warrior is a damage warrior, Prot changes the play style up more with more dramatic impact though so giving it some PvP viability was cool.

Same goes for Mages, Arcane became insane because Blizzard tried to make it viable for PvE, Fire still rules in PvE though. Frost should revert back to the dominating PvP spec, a Mage is a Mage no matter what your shooting, sure some have a more prefer'd playstyle but again get over it.

Hunters and Locks I understand are different, many hate depending on their retarded pets and looking out for them. This can be looked into more.

01-14-2009, 09:39 AM
personally i think that serennia is kind of a douchecanoe.
he comes off as really pretentious when he pretty much gets carried by class/comp/teammates in live every single season...but when he gets into the ESL pro tournaments and the best he does is 3rd (really good but not for the self proclaimed "best warrior in the world") then he goes and blames his teammates...all i know is that if i met him in rl id prolly kick him in the shins or something lol. or maybe spraypaint "swarmie carried you" on his dorm wall...i need time to scheme.

01-14-2009, 10:22 AM
Arena will eventually ruin this game. It is so class composition dependent, any class that's part of the FoTM comp for the season is destined to receive nerfs on whatever it was that made them good/strong. If it was limited to PVP/Arena only I wouldn't give a crap, but it isn't generally how they implement class changes anymore. The guy who knew how to make a change work in PVP-only must have left the company.

01-16-2009, 08:19 PM
What the warrior class really need right now is someone knowledgeable and respected enough to make a solid statement about how we suck in the arenas right now, hoping that Blizzard will hear.

01-16-2009, 09:41 PM
He rolled a DK why? Because the class is an ownage factory on wheels in arena and pvp in general. He tanks for his guild on his warrior so his DK can get into end game runs and pick up the best pve items for pvp, most likely true but hey good for him.

I do agree though that the damage penalty should be removed from beserker stance. Not any other class in the game has a stance/form which takes significantly more damage by default.