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emil99999
01-04-2009, 08:47 PM
Hi the current rotation mentioned everyowhere is the current:

Shield slam
Revenge
Cc Blow
Shockwave
Devestate

Hs to burn down rage.

Here is my question. there have not been any testing on rend. how good is it actually? Say i have all the abilitys above devestate on cd. i have 5 sunders on the target and just refreshed it. i have specced improved rend. there is mangle on the boss. dont know if there is any arms talent that would increase my rend but whatever. Would it be worth putting up rend instead of devestating? 2nd of all. would it be worth putting up rend without improved rend?

what im asking is that i would like some1 to test how good it is with a 25 man composition.

Kavtor
01-04-2009, 09:06 PM
Rend is a pretty solid choice if it's improved and you have mangle up. It's not going to revolutionize your DPS while tanking, but it's still quite a bit better than a devastate if you don't mind making things more complicated.

Xav
01-04-2009, 11:57 PM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/41686-rend-fail-we-so-sure.html


I know, it took me 8 seconds to find the thread, that was tough!

Rend is plenty good now, the hard part is remembering to use it, and at an appropriate time. Strongest when you have someone putting up mangle/trauma or whatever it is, typically 25 man raids.

Kazeyonoma
01-05-2009, 10:29 AM
yeh i normally don't put it up but if i see a feral druid or an arms warrior I'll throw it in, even though i'm not spec'd Imp rend.

Agmar
01-06-2009, 05:06 PM
It's definitely worth throwing out there instead of a devastate when the time feels appropriate.

When you're all buffed up, trauma etc. is up, and the boss is above 75%, it puts out some nice damage. If you use rend often, imp rend is more than plausible too.

Xav
01-07-2009, 07:34 AM
Turns out Rend isn't nearly as good as we thought. Someone modeled it all and did more detailed mathz than 'napkin math'. Rend will likely put out more actual damage, but less threat.

More importantly, properly working in a rend, in the proper location in your tank "rotation", will probably cause you more grief than good; you have to use rend at a time that it isn't pushing something else off.

Honestly, the rapidly changing priority order of abilities as you tank to eek the most out of it is crazy enough already while focusing on other stuff (like, staying alive, keeping other people), dropping rend from the rotation is probably the safest bet.

Elitist Jerks - View Single Post - Tanking "Cycle" and Priorities (http://elitistjerks.com/1041708-post73.html)

Has the post, and a simple program to download to generate personalized stats if they greatly vary.

Dreg
01-07-2009, 01:51 PM
thanks Xav, that answers the question pretty well. I'm not really disappointed, I honestly didn't want to juggle another attack into my rotation.

Agmar
01-07-2009, 02:48 PM
Hmm yeah thanks.

Nayre
01-07-2009, 04:32 PM
Turns out Rend isn't nearly as good as we thought. Someone modeled it all and did more detailed mathz than 'napkin math'. Rend will likely put out more actual damage, but less threat.

More importantly, properly working in a rend, in the proper location in your tank "rotation", will probably cause you more grief than good; you have to use rend at a time that it isn't pushing something else off.

Honestly, the rapidly changing priority order of abilities as you tank to eek the most out of it is crazy enough already while focusing on other stuff (like, staying alive, keeping other people), dropping rend from the rotation is probably the safest bet.

Elitist Jerks - View Single Post - Tanking "Cycle" and Priorities (http://elitistjerks.com/1041708-post73.html)

Has the post, and a simple program to download to generate personalized stats if they greatly vary.

When you say that you have to time it so that it doesn't push anything off, do you mean push something off on the boss/mob's debuff list? Or do you mean in terms of the priority list?

Mostly wondering, 'cause there actually isn't a debuff cap anymore (just a graphical display bug that only lists a certain amount of debuffs, even though there are more on the boss). :)

Kavtor
01-07-2009, 04:46 PM
Turns out Rend isn't nearly as good as we thought.

I'll certainly give that it's not a good choice for threat, and probably more trouble than it's worth if there's a lot going on. It was surprising to see how everything shook out for TPS, especially devastate.

But it's fun to play with in a dull tank and spank to squeeze out some extra DPS. ( at least, until actual math proves me wrong on that too :p )

I'm not sure whether to be disappointed on rend not having a lot to add, or gratified that devastate isn't as weak as I'd thought.

Muffin Man
01-07-2009, 05:23 PM
Turns out Rend isn't nearly as good as we thought. Someone modeled it all and did more detailed mathz than 'napkin math'. Rend will likely put out more actual damage, but less threat.

I'm not too surprised, since Satrina's threat post didn't mention rend having any bonus threat. Damage wise I'm sure it's effectiveness is going to vary based on boss armor, since it's damage is constant but all your other moves will vary so how 'good' it is depends if it's a clothie or plate target.

Oh well, my main action bar was getting crowded and I never remember to rend anyways.

Xav
01-07-2009, 06:52 PM
Rend should put out a bit more damage when used properly (20-30 dps), but not threat, yeah.

I meant push off as in push things out of "rotation" which makes you lose more threat than you'd gain.

Lightmgl
01-10-2009, 02:13 AM
I had done more testing and found that rend was a threat increase but only if used instead of a devastate on the cooldown before shield slam refreshes. Any other time and you risk losing threat to a sword and board proc.

Its just too much to micromanage though, even with a Last Laugh the gain is just not enough vs the potential lost TPS if you screw it up. Maybe one day once the scaling kicks in a bit more but for now it is just too much of a hassle to use effectively. Rend is definitely something we should be looking at again once we start seeing higher DPS weapons and higher AP values.

Daryus-Randomeyes
01-15-2009, 05:37 AM
I did some testing on this and my findings were in agreement with most posters above;

As a tank you will deal more damage but less threat by using a rend but not by a significant amount. If you are inefficient with rend and refresh it while it is still ticking then it actually lowers the damage output as you might expect.

In a situation where you are rage starved (DPSing while not being hit) I found it less efficient than devastate, purely because every devastate gives you 0.3 of a free Shield Slam.

My personal conclusion was that I will be using it very occasionally because it doesn't make a huge difference even when I get it perfect and when I don't it can actually costme a little DPS.

Kalken
01-15-2009, 08:46 PM
I find that Rend has more situational uses as well, like when bosses run away and hide for a period. It is a DoT after all. Like, Heigan's dancing phase, Noth's skeleton phase, Gothik's room switching, 4 Horseman mob switches, Thaddius' phase 1 tank throws, in all of these the boss either teleports away, you're forced to move him away, or you get chucked away and spreading damage is never a bad thing.

Jathine
01-15-2009, 09:24 PM
I have Imp Rend, but damn it is hard to shove Rend into the rotation as Xav said. Everything else has to be on cooldown and you need 1 free GCD before something better comes off cooldown. With Sword and Board procs being the way they are it can be very difficult to fit in the Rend. I might get in one Rend every 35-45 seconds at most.