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Satorri
12-31-2008, 08:38 AM
Hey folks, I had an idea and I wanted to keep it separate and uncluttered from the other discussions.

For all discussions on Dual Wield Death Knight tanking you can find a big discussion (in its better days) going on here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/42619-dual-wielding-dks-demystifying-myth.html).

To pair with the theoretical discussion I'd like to collect data of DK's dual wield tanking raids and heroics, and document that along side their spec they used and gear set. I've created a WWS account, and here's a quick description of how to use it:


For anyone who doesn't know how to WWS, when you're in game type "/combatlog" into your chat line, you'll get a confirmation message. When you're done collecting, type it again. When you log off (won't be able to remove the file until then), go into your WoW directory, into the "Logs" folder, there will be a file called WoWCombatlog. Take that file and drag it to your desktop. Go to:
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/).

I created an account so we can put all of the information under one heading:
Username: DKDW
password: idualwield

Pleast use it only for this data collection. When you go to the site and log in there is big button to "Start Client." This will open a Java applet. You enter the path to your combat log (on your desktop or wherever you put it). On one tab you'll need to enter the website login, though it will fill on future use automatically. Please enter in the comments who created the data, and a short description of where, such as Naxx10, ObSanc25, etc.

After you host it, you'll have the data compiled on a central page that you will be taken to, you can link your WWS back here to us on this post/forum, and we can see the exact breakdown of your damage taken (and done) as well as your amount of attacks parried.So below, if people could abstain from unhelpful commentary, I'd appreciate if folks could collect logs as they raid dual wield tanking, and post the link to the report below along with a link to your armory page (in your tank gear if you can remember to log out that way), and/or your spec and tanking stats.

I don't mind a bit of commentary or any needed flavor for the data (special buffs, food/elixir use, etc), but otherwise I'd like to keep this thread a bit more clear of criticism and discussion.

GravityDK
01-08-2009, 04:09 AM
I've also linked to this initiative at DeathKnight.info (http://deathknight.info).

Satorri
01-09-2009, 10:04 AM
Thanks, hopefully some of our tanks start making use of this, it could be VERY nice to see real numbers to lay some groundwork for the nay-sayers.

demifiend
01-10-2009, 10:52 AM
Uploaded a wws of VoA 10 and Naxx 10 (missing saph + KT as client crashed and forgot to turn back on combatlog).

Tombfire is my character. I'll capture and upload more in the coming days.

link to wws report:
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/6bt2urekiacei)

my armory link:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thrall&n=Tombfire)

A Man In Black
01-10-2009, 05:28 PM
Thanks, hopefully some of our tanks start making use of this, it could be VERY nice to see real numbers to lay some groundwork for the nay-sayers.
Don't do this. This is going to be plagued with selection bias already, don't make it worse.

nips
01-10-2009, 06:17 PM
Don't do this. This is going to be plagued with selection bias already, don't make it worse.

Not sure why you are aginst people trying to put numbers on different playstyles. Great initiative satorri.

I had a quick look at the wws and it looked like abilities that could be parried had an average around 7% for all the boss fights. Thats not much imo for someone that's dualwielding with only 5% parry reduction from expertice.

Blueduck3285
01-10-2009, 06:36 PM
Don't do this. This is going to be plagued with selection bias already, don't make it worse.

A man in black... please respect the posters wishes next time, very poor taste on your part.

I think its a great idea, Thank you Satorri.

demifiend
01-10-2009, 09:00 PM
Until bliz officially damns DW tanking, I haven't the slightest intention of giving up - I'm certain there's many more like me. Yes, there's the new 2h enchant next patch but still I can get 4% parry off 2 swordbreakings, so that's not bad at all.

one thing I noticed from the wws i posted was my rune strike accounted for the highest % of my overall damage, nudging ahead of white hits. With the increase to its threat I hope this will work out well for tps come 3.0.8.

Right now my rotation is not ideal, but again in 3.0.8 the removal of the cooldown on HB should help with that.

It will be interesting to see how they deal with killing machine.

Any and all feedback, aside from that of 'mr. black head / hat / mood ring', I'd very much appreciate.

More posts to come next week, no more content to do this week.

visualdeity
01-13-2009, 03:50 PM
Not sure why you are aginst people trying to put numbers on different playstyles. Great initiative satorri.

His comment makes it abundantly clear that he's biased, and simply isn't interested in an objective discussion. I could understand any number of responses meant to improve the quality of the data being collected, but a simple plea to not collect data is borderline trollish, and shows a clear prejudice, and unwillingness to challenge preconceptions. Just ignore him.

I've recently moved into tanking raids, and hope to have some info for you soon, Satorri. Will post data the instant I have some.

Satorri
01-13-2009, 06:27 PM
Agreed, Visual, and thank you all for contributing, more data we can get, the better we can gauge things.

I'm wanting to add data myself, but right now my "tanking" one-handers are blues which just hurts to down-grade from my love of my 2-hand godlyonastick. Maybe I should just use my epic dps 1-handers, not like I get or need tank stats out of my 2-hander...

Satorri
01-13-2009, 06:39 PM
Couple of nice little items to pull from Tombfire's first contribution:

As Nips pointed out, only 5% parried swings averaged across the all the boss fights is pretty reasonable (granted it includes fights like Gothik and Patchy where it won't matter if you're parried). On checking though, even Maexxna only parried 5.5% of the melee swings (159 swings, 5.5% parry = 9 swings).

The other thing I'm interested in is the relative % of Rune Strikes used next to regular melee swings, since one idea we've been kicking around is that you can make use of more procs than a 2-hander.

Taking the boss-only tally, Tomb got 591 RS vs 2722 Melee swings. That works out to 17.8% swing conversion at 57.2% dodge+parry.

I'm going to collect some 2-hand data from my next raids to see if I can compare on the same grounds.

Thanks Tomb for getting the ball rolling.

demifiend
01-14-2009, 08:10 AM
Naxx 25 - plague and military wings.

A poor capture from my perspective - we have a warrior tank that MTd most of the bosses last night.

Shared tanking duties with Gluth, took some hatefuls on patch, was nursing blameaux / the holy guy on 4h. Nothing too exciting. Will post more captures this week as I get em.

Using my 3.0.8 spec now, tps and dps up a lot. Killing machine in its current form is just silly. I certainly hope GC and crew don't nerf it 'into the ground'.

If you look carefully you can see where I hit people twice in one polarity shift with the wrong charge on thaddius and survived :p Thank christ for AM shell (it absorbed nearly 30k), I should rly pay more attention.

anyhows, here it is:

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/y2hmeedoll4vm?a=x24cdb08)

Satorri
01-14-2009, 08:50 AM
Howling Blast is working well for you, it looks to be doubling your functional crit rate on IT/HB/FS, which is very nice. From other people's parses I've seen on the PTR, it looks like KM should be very nicely buffed for dual wield tanks. The change is surely not a nerf for us, at most it would be for dps, but I don't think even that is the case (except maybe to cap F/U fast/fast proc nuts).

visualdeity
01-14-2009, 11:05 AM
Agreed, Visual, and thank you all for contributing, more data we can get, the better we can gauge things.

I'm wanting to add data myself, but right now my "tanking" one-handers are blues which just hurts to down-grade from my love of my 2-hand godlyonastick. Maybe I should just use my epic dps 1-handers, not like I get or need tank stats out of my 2-hander...

Actually, Satorri, it would still be a valuable contribution if you put forth your 2h data as a point of comparison, so I'd be interested in seeing it.

I was wondering, do you want all tanking data, or only for when you're the MT? I've been doing OT in my guild's raids so far, and I haven't been uploading WWS data because I didn't figure it would be as good as MT data, but if you want to look at the OT perspective as well, I'll upload it from now on.

xKhellendrosx
01-14-2009, 11:10 AM
Howling Blast is working well for you, it looks to be doubling your functional crit rate on IT/HB/FS, which is very nice. From other people's parses I've seen on the PTR, it looks like KM should be very nicely buffed for dual wield tanks. The change is surely not a nerf for us, at most it would be for dps, but I don't think even that is the case (except maybe to cap F/U fast/fast proc nuts).

Yeah the KM change should be nice for tanks of both 2 handers and DW variety, I see it really only as an attempt to curb the damage of fast/fast dps specs as I know I've wasted alot of KM procs just because HB was still on cooldown, and I could probably proc KM again by the time HB did come off cooldown.

Satorri
01-15-2009, 12:49 PM
Well, any tanking data will be helpful (provided you are tanking, that's what we're after here, right?). Please do make note, on the header for the WWS and/or on your post here to denote which fights you tanked and any other similar flavor to the fights that we would want to know. We can certainly decypher it from the reports, but if you spell it out ahead of time it'll help.

I'll refrain from posting any 2-hand tanking reports on that, but I can share some of my own, otherwise. I've been taking a back seat lately and letting my co-tank run the raids. It's nice to be a quiet participant sometimes, I can talk your head off when I get passionate/excited about something. Can you tell by my posts? =)

demifiend
01-15-2009, 10:45 PM
uploaded another report at: WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/263poanjhnhse)

MTing on Malygos 25, grand widow faerlina (letting her enrage). Other stuff in the report is junk, just us hard failing to sarth + adds, and the rest of spider wing in naxx25 etc.

Eonan
01-17-2009, 12:08 AM
Uploaded a WWS from a 10 man Naxx to my own profile. I am using a 10/42/19 spec at the moment (can Armory me I am camped in my tank gear and with the same spec). I was able to maintain 4-5k TPS easily on single targets and I was spiking as high as 7k at times depending on how crits were working. For Patchwerk I was the hurtful tank and had to back off a few times to not pass the Paly (he was having threat issues but won't go into that) and I MT'd everything else on the report.

I am in dire need of a second tanking weapon at the moment but my tank stats aren't necessarily hurting at the moment. Bear in mind this was only with 25 expertise.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/5w4azfrgeusea)

Parry

A Man In Black
01-17-2009, 01:44 AM
Not sure why you are aginst people trying to put numbers on different playstyles. Great initiative satorri.

No, I'm against characterizing it as "Sticking it to the naysayers!" That just screams out "Please only submit glowing WWSes," and is a sterling example of unhelpful commentary. Selection bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias) is going to be a natural problem, so let's not aggravate things.

Anyway, DK threat is super-easy to figure out. Take your DPS, subtract pet DPS, multiply that by 2.0735, add any MD or TOTT threat. It'll be a little more complex after 3.0.8 but not by that much. For example, in this Patchwerk (http://wowwebstats.com/5w4azfrgeusea?s=206791-222318&m), Parry did 4300-ish TPS.

Satorri
01-18-2009, 10:45 PM
Selection bias would be to only show the fights where it works well. If people are submitting full raid tanking reports where they are dual wield main tanking, that is useful information and goes heavily in the "this is not a zomgparrygib" column.

This is raw data collection, not a statistical analysis. If it can be done, it can be done, this is just for some results to sandbox with.

Tarrke
01-19-2009, 08:14 AM
Not sure that can be of any help but I may send you data about 2H tanking if you want some stat to compare with. I'm specially thinking about the RS thing mention in the thread and which I understand as : the RS proc are more profitable to a DW than to a 2H.

If I just look into a Patch that I tanked I found this data :
RS : 71 (53/16/2)
Whites : 23 (16/2/1/3)

First line is normal/crit/miss
second line is normal/crit/glancing/parry

The same day I've tanked Maex btw here are the stats :
RS : 28 (24/3/1)
Whites :37 (19/5/4/3/3/1)

first line like the first ^^
Second line normal/crit/glancing/miss/parry/dodge

This is a bit short to make any conclusion about that, but I may find some other wws with more tanking than that.
The only conclusion I may do is this one : Patchwerk is really a fast hitter. If I check his stat on me I read the following :
hit : 75
miss : 25
dodge : 59
parry : 62

So i've got on theses strike an effective 54.8% dodge+parry.

If more stats are interesting you just let me know I'll upload some wws for you and try to get revealent data on 2H tanking.

goingdown
01-19-2009, 06:05 PM
Help me, pls.

I did try Heroic Violet Hold and has problems with threat on Bubble Boss. Could u tell rotation for single and AoE targets, look what im doing:
Single: IT > PS > BS > BS > HB and FS (runic power dump)

Im dont getting to make constant rotation for AoE, have a moment that my runes are in CD, and i cannot use DnD to keep AoE Threat. Any1 could me with this?

Im using skills to reduce dmg, but im doing anything wrong, that im dont getting to keep threat for me.

Im using this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0oZGxezccbMhRVosxcg)

Satorri
01-21-2009, 05:58 AM
Thanks for the data Tarrke, 2-hand stuff is appreciated for comparison, though I'd like keep the communal WWS account for Dual Wield data, just to keep it clear.

Tarrke
01-23-2009, 08:45 AM
No prob with that.

However I may be able to send you more 2hander wws than DW (unless I'll drop that damed sword in that damed chest next week ^^). If you want more just ask :)

Satorri
01-26-2009, 06:16 AM
I've been seeing a total lack of tanking weapons myself. =(

I got my warrior/pally friends theirs, a while ago, and I've been hoping for some to drop so I could really test out the stat side of it (though I've been considering just using my epic dps weapons to test).