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Gehn
12-29-2008, 09:22 PM
Is there a way that you evaluate your raid tank's skills?

We have an abundance of tanks available for raids. We have been running 2 - 10 mans for the last couple of weeks and have had 2 tanks sitting out each day. With us moving to 25 mans this week, we are actually losing a tank slot (bringing only 3 dedicated tanks into the raid / 2 bears who will be cats when not needed to tank).

So...if we were to try to evaluate our different tanking classes (we field all 4), is there a way that it can be done fairly? That is, other than going off of whole raid performance on a per boss basis (whether the boss was downed w/o difficulty, was the problem the tank, etc)

We do use WWS.

veneretio
12-30-2008, 12:41 AM
Run Utgarde Pinnacle, Halls of Stone and Halls of Lightning with all of them on Heroic and tell them, "This is the test."

You'll have a pretty good idea once you're done who's comfortable under pressure and can handle a variety of the more overwhelming raid situations. I'd also be sure to grade them on their ability to talk on vent.

Stearns
12-30-2008, 01:02 AM
You want you tanks to be leaders who can motivate others. They must be ahead of the curve when learning mob pulls & boss strategies. Speaking up in vent is a must, I totally agree. Also heroics can be a good and easy gauge.

And you should check their abilities to pick up mobs that go astray, which gives you a sense of how aware they are of the changing raid environment. While gear is not the most important factor, you can also ask them how they are gearing, and why. That will give you a sense of how much they research gear, and how independent they are in their thinking. For example, do they know their next upgrade, and where it's coming from? Do they make an effort to farm heroics? Are they stacking stats for well thought out reasons when they gem & enchant?

The best players admit their own mistakes immediately - you cannot have your tanks trying to cover up their own failings.

People must like them too, and trust them, since they're the focus of so much of the raids attention.

Xav
12-30-2008, 11:15 AM
Is there a way that you evaluate your raid tank's skills?

We have an abundance of tanks available for raids. We have been running 2 - 10 mans for the last couple of weeks and have had 2 tanks sitting out each day. With us moving to 25 mans this week, we are actually losing a tank slot (bringing only 3 dedicated tanks into the raid / 2 bears who will be cats when not needed to tank).

So...if we were to try to evaluate our different tanking classes (we field all 4), is there a way that it can be done fairly? That is, other than going off of whole raid performance on a per boss basis (whether the boss was downed w/o difficulty, was the problem the tank, etc)

We do use WWS.

Look at their DPS while tanking, while in normal tank gear, compared to others in equal gear.

Look at their ability to hold multi-mob (and single target) aggro vs hard aoe in AOE packs, or who has the most success at it and the least mobs pulled off them.

Heroic Halls of Stone and Halls of Lightning would be a decent test, but not great. Heroic Occulus (the caster pulls in particular) would be a great test. Pinnacle though as Vene said, is another great one.

Raid awareness, their rate of initiating new pulls or slowing/stopping new pulls if there are deaths or low mana, etc.

Your best bet would be to directly ask known succesful/skilled tanks of a particular class and ask them to analyze someone's performance via WWS and get some feedback that way, and compare it with your own personal experiences.

As for 25 man encounters themselves: See which tanks perform the best on a particular "side" on Gothik the Harvester. If a tank is just failing at the tanking aspect of that fight, it will be really apparent.

Beatzz
12-30-2008, 11:33 AM
Basically everything has been answered, but you really need your tanks to be leaders, its nice for others to step up but from a tank it really is impotant. If any of your tanks dont have a mic and type everything, that can reallllly hurt.

Edit: Also look for the tanks that try new things and are not affraid to improve, tanks that think they are amazing and cant improve suck imo (but what tank doesnt right :P)

Crommi
01-04-2009, 03:40 AM
If you have too many tanks, you could ask around if one of them is interested in DPS role. Fury warriors are still on top of the damage meters right below hunters and boomkins are doing impressive dps while giving nice buffs.


Basically everything has been answered, but you really need your tanks to be leaders, its nice for others to step up but from a tank it really is impotant. If any of your tanks dont have a mic and type everything, that can reallllly hurt.
I'd say not all tanks need mic or talk during raids, ideal situation is where you have RL and one person for each role (dps, healers and tanks) to guide players through when needed. Too much talking can lead to confusion and loss of concentration.

kosh
01-04-2009, 04:43 AM
To be honest, I personally don't think you can evaluate tanks based on numbers. I think it's better to evaluate based on gut feeling and general feeling of safety. If you feel like you're being looked after, the tank is doing something right. Dps isn't our main priority, and as long as we keep the group running smoothly I don't see a cause for concern (although sub-1k dps is).

There shouldn't even be a need for voice chat in the current content (we don't use any).

Here's a list of a few things to look out for. Most people around here would say these are obvious, but I've seen tanks fail miserably on all these.

- Picking up stray mobs from packs, or prioritizing the correct strays
- Positioning bosses/mobs precisely and quickly
- Keeping mobs in place (when kiting isn't needed)
- Making sure not to go ahead when the group is obviously not ready
- Not running into aggro/dying on frogger
- Being decisive and quick to adapt
- Moving mobs that drop clouds/flamestrikes/other ground aoes
- Alerting the group when there's a need to reposition cleaving bosses
- Notifying people when they're about to mess up (threat or position wise)
- Keeping up threat on multiple mobs taking high dps
- Keeping up a good tempo

Nightdemon
01-04-2009, 07:48 PM
I'd say not all tanks need mic or talk during raids, ideal situation is where you have RL and one person for each role (dps, healers and tanks) to guide players through when needed. Too much talking can lead to confusion and loss of concentration.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to severely disagree with you here. People should know when to talk, and what to say. Having tanks with mics is a godsend. (I've actually been taken to a raid over another tank, purely because I talk on Vent, and he doesn't).

Communicating when tanking is probably one of the most beneficial factors when raiding. Tanks generally control the raid, so to speak (They control what / when things are pulled, the pace, and are the only things standing between a wipe, or a kill). People would much rather here something being said over voice comms, than having to read chat (You'll hear people over voice comms passivlely, you have to look for, and read people typing, which may not be possible at all times). If a voice over voice comms is distracting, what about having to read what tanks type mid-fight?

Griever423
01-04-2009, 11:23 PM
When it comes down to it being aware of your surroundings, and being able to listen to what the RL/MT/Management has to say is what really counts in a tank. I tank can put out amazing threat whether it be single target or multi-mob, but if he or she likes to stand in flamestrikes/doomfire/shadow fissures/poop or refuses to listen to instructions from the management then he isn't much help to the raid.

Sub-par TPS or lack of gear can be worked on. The other shortcomings not so much.

macfeagle
01-06-2009, 04:32 AM
I had a tank in an H-AK stand there for 9 minutes without saying a word, then pull a very difficult group without marks, warning, or any explanation of the pull.

At least half of raid tanking is group leadership, which has nothing to do with dps or gear or meters or even if the guy is actually hitting a mob. He could be dead on the ground and still be key figure. And probably most of the other half is whether he shows up for every raid.

I left that H-AK group. Worst tank I've gone with for a long time, and I have no idea if he has good gear or bad gear or can tank one mob at a time or tank a dozen.

Ray
01-06-2009, 07:19 AM
To be honest, I personally don't think you can evaluate tanks based on numbers. I think it's better to evaluate based on gut feeling and general feeling of safety. If you feel like you're being looked after, the tank is doing something right. Dps isn't our main priority, and as long as we keep the group running smoothly I don't see a cause for concern (although sub-1k dps is).

I have to disagree. For a progressive raid guild, DPS has to be very very good. Overwhelming DPS covers many mistakes and is one of things I look for when doing a group.

Tanking is about many things, most of which have been mentioned here. Leadership, Communication, Awareness, Control, Pacing, TPS, Healablity. Tanks need to have a good learning curve, do there homework, and also be able to explain it. On farm content, they need to increase there TPS and pacing of the run. More TPS = More DPS.

What it comes down to is as the tank I am there to protect, lead, and keep my group having fun with the game. Thats where my fun comes in.