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View Full Version : Shockwave & Heroic Throw?



suadero
12-28-2008, 05:26 AM
do you use them in your single target tanking rotation?

I use heroic throw, but not shockwave, but i noticed that xav uses shockwave.

here's a patchwork kill to get an idea of what i'm doing.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/izpyakr2ehass?s=344201-375579&a=x2279641)

i need more expertise or hit, i'm missing too much i think.

Turmoil
12-28-2008, 06:39 AM
In a raid situation where I'm buffed to the point of over 4k AP, it would be a travesty not to include shockwave. Rage isn't an issue and I believe it does the same as conc blow on a single target.

jettzypher
12-28-2008, 11:31 PM
i use it...stuns never hurt anyone, extra threat, and good dmg (esp if you have soem good AP). def a staple in all rotations imo...

suadero
12-29-2008, 02:30 AM
well, not gonna be stunning a boss with it. i always use it on CD for trash. I'm pushing about 5k AP raid buffed, so i'll add it to the rotation.

jettzypher
12-29-2008, 02:40 AM
yeah youre not gonna stun a boss, but youre not also attacking nothing but bosses 100% of the time either. i dont understand why everything has to be only about bosses. yeah its important to think about bosses, but theyre not the only content in the game. youll run into way more trash that you can stun than bosses that you cant.

loquatious
12-29-2008, 07:08 AM
I definitely use it in my rotation, when Shield Slam and revenge are on cooldown and no debuffs have to be refreshed. Hell I sometimes hit Taunting Blow.

Ceravantes
12-29-2008, 07:50 AM
yeah youre not gonna stun a boss, but youre not also attacking nothing but bosses 100% of the time either. i dont understand why everything has to be only about bosses. yeah its important to think about bosses, but theyre not the only content in the game. youll run into way more trash that you can stun than bosses that you cant.

Because the question was about single target rotations, this is generally assumed to be a boss because single trash pulls don't live very long, and they are few and far between. People simply answered the question asked.

Shockwave, like concussion Blow and Heroic Throw, are better than Devastate whenever SS has <2 Seconds left on CD. Devastate is only better in other situations because of possible SnB procs. I get 1 off on each SS cooldown, thrown in with SnB procs, I generally always have one up to use.

jettzypher
12-29-2008, 08:29 PM
yeah, people assumed...

suadero
12-30-2008, 03:59 AM
i guess i should have said "boss" not "single target rotation" but that is what i meant.

Gromtar
12-30-2008, 09:44 AM
I've had a look at my Recount data from yesterdays Naxxramas normal raid
to get some actual numbers on this issue.

The data includes all bosses and trash mobs. I've listed the average
damage on hit and crit. Additionally the overall average damage done by
each ability.



Ability Av. Hit Av. Crit av. overall Dmg.
Shield Slam 2046 4536 2633
Revenge 2002 4436 2185
Shockwave 2110 4637 2448
Devastate 671 1535 818
Thunderclap 696 1108 752
Concussion Blow 2314 5214 2397
Heroic Throw 1210 2822 1343The actual numbers may vary depending on your gear and buffs. But should
be applicable for most raiders with an Impale/Deep Wounds build.

From this data you get the following priority list:



Shield Slam
Shockwave
Concussion Blow
Revenge
Heroic Throw
Devastate
Thunder Clap

Coming back to the original topic of this thread: Yes, use Shockwave on
every cooldown even during single target tanking. And if you have a
cooldown to spare, you can use Heroic Throw prior to Devastate and
Thunderclap.

One thing I noticed and was new to me: Thunderclap is treated like a
spell regarding its crit rate and crit damage. It only had the ~15% crit
rate from the talent Incite and the 50% bonus damage on crits instead of
the 100% we usually get as melee. Additionally the bonus damage isn't
modified by Impale.

If Thunderclap would be treated the same way as Shockwave, it would be
on the priority list even before Devastate!

Ceravantes
12-30-2008, 09:54 AM
yeah, people assumed...

Yes, and assumed correctly. You'll find that after answering enough questions about "single Target Threat Rotations" your assumption that they mean boss's is generally correct.

People also won't normally ask for a "rotation" for trash tanking.

Ceravantes
12-30-2008, 09:56 AM
One thing I noticed and was new to me: Thunderclap is treated like a
spell regarding its crit rate and crit damage. It only had the ~15% crit
rate from the talent Incite and the 50% bonus damage on crits instead of
the 100% we usually get as melee. Additionally the bonus damage isn't
modified by Impale.

If Thunderclap would be treated the same way as Shockwave, it would be
on the priority list even before Devastate!

Thunderclap and Taunt have always been treated as a spell, the only exception to this was when both were changed to work with melee, as well as spell hit. Though that exception has since become irrelevant.

This was why you saw warriors stacking spell hit for four horseman back in the 40 man.

Xav
12-30-2008, 12:05 PM
This thread on EJ addresses this exact question, it may have the answers and insight you are looking for.

Tanking "Cycle" and Priorities - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t39944-tanking_cycle_priorities/)

Muffin Man
12-30-2008, 03:43 PM
Thunderclap and Taunt have always been treated as a spell, the only exception to this was when both were changed to work with melee, as well as spell hit. Though that exception has since become irrelevant.

This was why you saw warriors stacking spell hit for four horseman back in the 40 man.

It's also why thunderclap was so nice for killing rogues (not that warriors needed help). I haven't pvp-ed much in LK but I would hazard that thunderclap > evasion still.

It's still physical damage though, so no getting around armor except for bleeds for us warriors.

suadero
12-30-2008, 09:13 PM
Thanks for math Grom and the link Xav, very informative thread

Lightmgl
12-31-2008, 11:48 AM
The only reason you shouldn't be using shockwave is if the hitbox of a creature is too large for your shockwave to land while you are tanking it.

Heroic Throw is still better than devastate.

Rend is even proving to be potentially better than devastate too but it needs more testing. They also kinda need to fix the bug with improved rend too.

For such a "staple" ability devastate is kinda lacking. It'd be nice if they made S&B trigger from some of these other powers like rend, conc blow, and shockwave. I was talking about it in other threads but basically since devastate scales at 50% of your weapon dmg it is actually the worst scaling of all our skills. Things like HT, Conc Blow, Shockwave, and Rend will dwarf it even worse in the future.

Gromtar
01-01-2009, 07:37 AM
The only reason you shouldn't be using shockwave is if the hitbox of a creature is too large for your shockwave to land while you are tanking it.

It is always possible to position yourself so that your Shockwave lands. Just move close to the mob until your stand on the red ring from the hitbox. This has worked for me on Malygos, Sapphiron and Sartharion.

Lightmgl
01-02-2009, 10:21 AM
I always just ditched it cause I was worried the mobs might shift or move. I really don't like moving forward in a fight like Malygos where I could blow people up :/. We shouldn't have to anyways. Same reason we shouldn't ever be out of thunderclap range if we can melee a mob either.

Yarock
01-02-2009, 11:25 AM
Although it's not a big deal with a 1.5/1.6 speed tanking weapon don't forget the heroic throw resets your swing timer much like slam used to. But yes, I use everything. Once I've got full sunders up my personal priority is shield slam > revenge > shockwave > concussion blow > heroic throw > devestate (keeping thunderclap/demo shout up unless we're overgeared for the content). Of course devestate quickly becomes top priority if sunder's are expiring.