PDA

View Full Version : Definition of Hard Core



salihe
12-25-2008, 02:23 PM
This is a term I hear thrown about constantly: we're a hard core raiding guild. The thing that me and my co-gm have been debating on is, what exactly is the definition of a hard core guild? I've always thought it consisted of 25 or 30 people who raid together every reset period, same group, more or less, every time. Sign-ups are unnecessary because everyone knows who will be there and when to show up. All the members kick in equal amounts, and the small group progresses together.

That's how I've always viewed it, anyway, and it's always seemed to me, due to the lack of discipline of so many players, that it's the easiest, most economical way to reach the farthest end-game content there is to be had.

My co-gm has other ideas, however. A description another guildie used was that he wants the prestige of being an elite end-game guild while still retaining a casual feel. He wants to be an elite guild but refuses to be what he calls elitist, and I find it hard to reconcile the two. His definition of elitist is refusing to allow someone in our guild if they're only able to raid, say, a couple nites a week, instead of our full schedule, and he thinks that those people are being penalized for having lives outside of WoW, not using sign-ups because the raid list is already pretedermined and filled with those who can meet every raid time and who do have the amount of time needed to invest.

Our guild has about 40 lvl 80s, with more on the way, and while I always envisioned it as I mentioned before, with a regular group of core raiders, his picture continues using sign-ups, rotating in as many people who want in based on first-come-first-serve, based on their schedule, instead of ours. I have told him that I absolutely will refuse to carry someone who only logs on for raids, expects to be spood fed gear, and then logs off till next raid time, and I don't care if that is due to that person's own personal scheduling restraints.

Anyway, I'd like some thoughts on the matter.

Does a hardcore guild rotate people in and out of the "core" group on a regular basis without the gm's going insane?
Does a hardcore guild use sign-ups, and first-come-first-serve?
Is it possible to be an elite guild, without being elitist?
At what point does a person transform from being a hardcore player to a casual one?
And how do all these varied people, with their varied schedules fit into this supposed grand scheme of things?

Heh.

Anyway, thoughts would be appreciated :P

Crommi
12-25-2008, 02:44 PM
In hard-core guild, guild progression would go above anything else. You wouldn't necessarily rotate people in raids but always handpick best group combination possible for progression fights and main focus is on those fights, dropping farm content if extra time is needed to practise difficult fights.

On the opposite end of scale you have casual guilds which do not necessarily raid on regular schedule, if at all.

I believe most guilds are somewhere in between with regular raiding schedule and rotation mechanics to allow everyone have spot in raids.


I have told him that I absolutely will refuse to carry someone who only logs on for raids, expects to be spood fed gear, and then logs off till next raid time, and I don't care if that is due to that person's own personal scheduling restraints.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, at some point everyone will enter this state where you don't bother logging just to jump around the roof of Orgrimmar bank. I've reached this point already, there's not much point running heroic pugs when they're only a cash drain and PvP isn't really that exciting with PvE spec. Only thing left is to do couple dailys to get cash for repairs and restock pots/food.

Hamburgers
12-25-2008, 02:57 PM
"Hardcore" is a lot harder to define with the state of raiding as it is now. Back when it took 40 people logged in at a time and you could raid for hours, it took some dedication and organization to clear things quickly and get world/server firsts.

Now that raiding isn't that hard at all and takes considerably fewer people, the line between casual and hardcore is blurred. My guild is pretty much the definition of "casual" - a bunch of married people with kids, some college students and their friends who raid a couple times a week but have still managed to clear all 25-man content except Malygos, and that only because we haven't really bothered to try.

I assume this will change depending on just how much the difficulty ramps up with Ulduar and subsequent raids, since the biggest thing that I've seen divide hardcore and casual is difficulty. Look at Karazhan: it only really started being farmed by everyone and their brother once it was nerfed considerably. The average player's idea of fun isn't spending a few hundred gold wiping on a boss, it's killing a boss in a try or two and walking away with an epic.

I really have a tendency to ramble so I'll try and sum it up before this turns into a three page essay with no point: speaking as someone who's pretty much been a "casual" player since the beginning, hardcore means to me someone who's willing to put in whatever effort it takes to be on the bleeding edge of content, though that's really lost a lot of meaning with the new expansion.

salihe
12-25-2008, 03:07 PM
I believe most guilds are somewhere in between with regular raiding schedule and rotation mechanics to allow everyone have spot in raids.


I'm not sure what you mean by this, at some point everyone will enter this state where you don't bother logging just to jump around the roof of Orgrimmar bank. I've reached this point already, there's not much point running heroic pugs when they're only a cash drain and PvP isn't really that exciting with PvE spec. Only thing left is to do couple dailys to get cash for repairs and restock pots/food.

I mean that in the current context, when people should be spending their time working on their own character, ie running heroics, working on professions, gathering up badge...er...emblem gear, etc, etc. If someone comes to a raid still decked out in half lvl 70 gear, with a mixture of quest greens and blues, and raid times are the only times they come on, I consider it an insult to the rest of the raid, whom, likely have put in that time and effort and done as much as they could've done to improve their character on their own. I sympathize with people who have tight schedules and the only times they can log on are raid times, but I might gently suggest to them that another, more casual guild would be better suited for them.

Of course, as you said, once all those things are done, I still expect people to be on for things other than just raiding, but I find it more understandable if they don't. Personally, one of my favorite things to do when not raiding (or endless flying around mining) was to just sit in Shat and bullshit with guildies.

jettzypher
12-25-2008, 05:26 PM
in my overall opinion, its just a video game, and it shouldnt be taken that damn seriously (even though plenty of people do). *shrug* however...

I dont think its right to deny people room to get into raids just because theyre not always on or arent always in a select raid group. you probably wouldnt want them in your frist group when trying to take one new content though. however, you should have different groups for different levels of players to help make it more fair and allow others the chance. your "hardcore" group thats always out and on top of everything and at least one casual group that is filled with players as their schedules permit and can even allow a larger number of players from outside the guild (can also be viewed as a recruitment tool. check plaeyrs out before letting them). you can add in mid level groups that fall in between those two with players who are more regular, but not quite up to "hardcore". and even the high end players can get into those on occasion. sometimes people just want to relax and cruise through stuff.


If someone comes to a raid still decked out in half lvl 70 gear, with a mixture of quest greens and blues, and raid times are the only times they come on, i do agree with this statement though. people that fall into this category need to take their asses into a few heroics and get some better gear before even thinkin of coming into a raid.

Bigmoomma
12-25-2008, 06:03 PM
Hardcore is simple to define - It's a state of mind that says "I will do whatever it takes to complete my next goal in the minimum required time".

Raid stacking isn't needed. Do people still do it? Yes, clearly. A minimal group of players that all want to play without subbing players in isn't needed. Do people still do it? Yes.

I'm not saying it's 'right' or 'wrong'. Everyone has their own views on what sort of guild they should be in, and generally they end up in a guild that suits them.

Content right now is trivial, which like stated before blurs the lines quite a bit. Many of the guilds that are 'hardcore' are stuck at the same progression point as many casual guilds. And in many situations, many casual guilds actually progressed earlier and quicker due to the amount of activity / people online post release. In a 'hardcore' guild missing 1-2 raiders can cause dire results on a raid, not so much in a casual guild atmnosphere.

Right now, the gains from being in a 'hardcore' guild are minimal, and the losses, 'potentially' catastrophic if you do not find the right one with the right group of consistant people especially with the social flux the game is in due to the expansion. Just like TBC before it guilds are all in a social uproar right now and it's all about buckling down and holding tight until the storm wanes out and hope you have enough of a guild left to keep moving forward, or someone with enough drive to pick up the peices and push it all back together.

Hardcore is doing whatever it takes. Back in BT / Sunwell / Hyjal our Ret / Prot paladin would often respec anywhere between 2-4x a day simply for raiding purposes, let alone personal out of raid reasons such as 5mans, 10mans, dailies, pvp etc. That was hardcore by my definition. All it is is prioritizing raid progression above other goals that people may so much want.

Some hardcore guilds do have signups, some do not. That's definatly not a defining characteristic. My guild actually has a reverse signup. We have quite a few casual members, however if you're ranked as a raider or above in our guild you're required to sign up if you will NOT be attending a raid / be late / leave early so our GM / Raid leaders are aware and can prepare for it ahead of time.

Some hardcore guilds do cycle in other casual members, others do not - however, NO hardcore guild would cycle in casual members until after the content is cleared. Casual members as much love as they have do not contribute enough to warrent a slot in 'first kills' unless the slots are otherwise unfillable by designated raiders. That's really the difference right there. Who cares who you bring to cleared content for loot? (although loot priority could be argued to prefered people in the guild for guild progression, but almost any loot system (minus epgp imho) would play to that goal / strength anyways so it's not really something to worry about too much.

There's nothing wrong with having casual members, in a hardcore guild or a casual guild. There's nothing wrong with being a casual guild, especially at this point. For some, it's not the prefered style, I know I prefer my guild but that's more due to the position I earned in it and the people I know in it rather than it's status as hardcore or casual.

Long story short, do you feel bringing these 'casual players' to your raids is hampering your progression and movement forwards or will it in the future? If so on a few cases, deal with them individually, if so on a lot of cases, it might be time for a change of guild, or a change of guild protocol. If not? Who cares, if it works roll with it.

orcstar
12-26-2008, 03:39 AM
If you haven't cleared Naxxramas yet you're not and will not be a hardcore raiding guild.

There are a lot of people who pretend to be hardcore.
With pretending to be "hardcore" you can end all sensible discussion which in the end will be very bad for your guild.

It would be better to state some goals for your guild.

Goals for my guild: We are going to progress raid as fast as our 3 days of raiding allows us to do.

kolben
12-26-2008, 09:05 AM
I haven't been in a progression oriented guild since classic WoW, but the same old things apply still.

Does a hardcore guild rotate people in and out of the "core" group on a regular basis without the gm's going insane?

In my experience no. You want the core raid to be mostly the exact same people filling the exact same roles night after night.
This is especially important for getting new bosses down relatively quickly. On more complicated encounters, it takes people many wipes to learn their job, you don't want new people in there every time out.

Rotating members isn't a terrible idea exactly, but save that for new content or some other point at which everyone is on the same page, i.e. attempt #1.

With lower number requirements, I'd suggest some kind of organized raid schedule for your non-core members to keep them busy and gear up in content you have already cleared. Nobody likes warming the bench.

Does a hardcore guild use sign-ups, and first-come-first-serve?

In-line with above, they are the same 40, 25, 20, 10 or whatever people every night. There is no reason to sign up, only to tell the raid leader or your class leader if for some reason you can't make it. Nearly 100% attendance is assumed for any serious raiding group.

For the less serious stuff, I recommend just having people go to the instance portal and do invites 10 minutes prior to pulling.

Is it possible to be an elite guild, without being elitist?

Absolutely. With a really solid group of people you feel comfortable with and trust, there is just no need for the screaming raid leader type of environment. In fact that would be a disaster with a group of reliable self-starter players who give 100% every time out.

Smart people don't like being treated like crap and aren't encouraged by abuse. I think it's very likely that a guild that tolerates it or encourages it will eventually wind up with mean judgmental people who really aren't superb players but have double-wide egos ... based on a video game. How big of an L can you paint on your forehead lol. Anyway...

At what point does a person transform from being a hardcore player to a casual one?

I'd have to say time available for WoW. A lot of great players have things happen in their lives that make WoW take the back seat. They should always be more important than the game.

Casual as in bad or unskilled isn't the same thing. I'd cut the players who just are inexperienced a lot of slack, they often turn into good raiders. Apathetic ones need to understand that they need to pull their weight or sit on the bench.

And how do all these varied people, with their varied schedules fit into this supposed grand scheme of things?

I found coming up with a good raiding schedule to be tough. One way to do it is to find out the days and times your core group can raid reliably. If that's two weeknights and a Sunday afternoon go with that. It's more important to get in there with a solid group and learn to play really well together than how often you can go or how long you can stay. Ideally most of your players will be in the same time zone or close to the same play hours.

Lizana
12-26-2008, 09:26 AM
I used to do "hardcore raids". For us it was 8-10 hours a night on learning fights. a 10 min break every 2 hours for bio/food. You pulled threat you were kicked from raid, you ran out of pots - kicked from raid, ran out of regents - yep kicked from raid. If you were not at the instance portal at invite time, you didnt get to raid that month. Failure to follow any one of the dozens of guild rules and policies, one month ban from raiding. Raid and guild leader were the only ones to speak in vent, /1 /raid /party /say /yell and /guild during a raid. We only brought in a new member when the content demanded a new makeup or you broke a rule. As pally class officer i was expected to be available for contact 24/7. The guild had my email, my cell and home phone #. If the gm called me and i didnt log in to respond to him within 6 hours, i would lose my officer spot. We raided everyday, including Christmas eve and Christmas day. We picked your spec, we picked your gear, we even told you what order to put spells on your hotbar as.

After a full year of that, i had enough. The loot was great, downing most all of original wow content was great. Flunking out of college and almost becoming unemployed due to my "hardcore" guild wasn't.

Now for your questions :P

Does a hardcore guild rotate people in and out of the "core" group on a regular basis without the gm's going insane?

They don't. A hardcore raiding guild is there to down bosses and progress not to gear up people. The people in the guild dont matter the boss kill does.

Does a hardcore guild use sign-ups, and first-come-first-serve?

Best geared best skilled person that is the exact spec you need gets invite, if they arent top geared, best spec they dont get an invite and you recruit some one that is.

Is it possible to be an elite guild, without being elitist?

Nope. And its not a bad thing for a progression guild to be elitist. To be a top raiding guild, to get the server and world firsts, you have to put everything else but progression aside. Some one in all blues just cant do the same as some one in all top level epics.

At what point does a person transform from being a hardcore player to a casual one?

When they decide the fun is more important than the game.

And how do all these varied people, with their varied schedules fit into this supposed grand scheme of things?

In a hardcore, it doesnt matter - Guild > Everything. If you cant put in the time, chances are someone else will

bludwork
12-26-2008, 09:32 AM
It is up to your guild to define what both terms are. We use the term "serious but casual" in our recruitment posts. Serious means you are committed to 75% of our stated raid times eventually we abandoned sign ups completely because we only recruited people who had the commitment and time to show up to raids. During the 3 hours we set aside to raid no tomfollery allowed in vent, no afks and if you suck or underperform you'll hear about it.

Casual means about 3 hours of raiding 4 days a week, outside of raids times you can socialize all you want, no forced specs or respecs, you may take breaks from raiding when you feel like it without getting penalized.

For us it comes down to who we recruit since it saves us a lot of trouble and headache for attendance and filling the roster on raid night.

Trouble
12-26-2008, 12:17 PM
I think using the term "hardcore" may cause some difficulty because it has so many definitions. Instead you should talk about your goals. Do you want to be a top guild on your server? A top guild in the US? A top guild in the world? Do you want increase the efficiency of your raids? Do you want to get the tards out of your raid? Do you want your raiders to be more dedicated? Ask yourself exactly you want out of your guild and what you're willing to sacrifice to do it.

For my own experience in leading a guild, we specifically decided at one point "we want to be a top guild in the US and maybe the world". By most definitions, guilds at the top like that are considered hardcore. But we do our best to be successful while not fitting the stereotype of the guild full of assholes, the guild that's willing to be cutthroat, the guild that raids 7 days a week at all hours of the day, etc. We achieved our goal by implementing rigorous recruiting standards, being open with our high expectations of our members, and being patient.

So what do you want out of your guild? What does your co-GM want? By what you said about your co-GM, he wants to eat his cake and have it too. He doesn't want to implement rigorous standards of dedication for your members yet he wants to somehow be successful. If you want to be successful at the server first (or better) type level then you need have people who can be there reliably most nights so that you don't spend time re-teaching progression content to new people every night.

salihe
12-28-2008, 02:40 PM
Well, I personally have no aspirations to shoot for any server or world firsts. I do like to occasionally do things outside of wow, and I'm not going to surround myself with people with such grim determination. Not to mention, I expect the next xpac (and I expect there'll be at least one more xpac, but that's another story) will be at least 2 years, if not more, forthcoming, so the way I see it, what's the rush. What I would like to eventually do, however, is complete all the end-game content that's eventually offered....to clear Sunwell, in BC terms. I don't expect to down Arthas a month after he's finally put into the game, however I would like to see a SS of my guild with his corpse at some point. And I'd found it hard to think that a guild with a system of random sign-ups and whatnot would be able to make it that far.

My thinking has somewhat changed in that regard, at least. I imagine, before too long, the natural evolution, survival of the fittest thing will have taken its' course, the tards will have weeded themselves out, and those who're left who will be signing up will be poeple I can rely on. That, at least, is how I hope it plays out....no, that, at least, is how I'm going to make it play out.



We achieved our goal by implementing rigorous recruiting standards, being open with our high expectations of our members, and being patient.




That's how I've been going about it so far. I take a good long time with every person who wants to join, explain to them in very clear terms what we're looking for as a guild, what we're looking for in guildies, and what will be expected of them. So far, it's been going fairly well. I emphasise that loyalty, above almost everything else, to the guild and to each other, is very high on my list of Things I Look For, and that's seemed to go a long way in getting the appropriate types of folks.

jettzypher
12-29-2008, 02:06 AM
I used to do "hardcore raids". For us it was 8-10 hours a night on learning fights. a 10 min break every 2 hours for bio/food. You pulled threat you were kicked from raid, you ran out of pots - kicked from raid, ran out of regents - yep kicked from raid. If you were not at the instance portal at invite time, you didnt get to raid that month. Failure to follow any one of the dozens of guild rules and policies, one month ban from raiding. Raid and guild leader were the only ones to speak in vent, /1 /raid /party /say /yell and /guild during a raid. We only brought in a new member when the content demanded a new makeup or you broke a rule. As pally class officer i was expected to be available for contact 24/7. The guild had my email, my cell and home phone #. If the gm called me and i didnt log in to respond to him within 6 hours, i would lose my officer spot. We raided everyday, including Christmas eve and Christmas day. We picked your spec, we picked your gear, we even told you what order to put spells on your hotbar as wow...thats way over the damn top imo...i dont care what theyre tryin to do. its a freakin video game, not a life style and people shouldnt take it that damn seriously. only way i could see people being like this is if you were being paid for it.

Skyaxe
12-29-2008, 02:13 AM
I used to do "hardcore raids". For us it was 8-10 hours a night on learning fights. a 10 min break every 2 hours for bio/food. You pulled threat you were kicked from raid, you ran out of pots - kicked from raid, ran out of regents - yep kicked from raid. If you were not at the instance portal at invite time, you didnt get to raid that month. Failure to follow any one of the dozens of guild rules and policies, one month ban from raiding. Raid and guild leader were the only ones to speak in vent, /1 /raid /party /say /yell and /guild during a raid. We only brought in a new member when the content demanded a new makeup or you broke a rule. As pally class officer i was expected to be available for contact 24/7. The guild had my email, my cell and home phone #. If the gm called me and i didnt log in to respond to him within 6 hours, i would lose my officer spot. We raided everyday, including Christmas eve and Christmas day. We picked your spec, we picked your gear, we even told you what order to put spells on your hotbar as.

.... Holy shit man ... thats just wrong on soo many levels.
......:eek:

kolben
12-29-2008, 11:51 AM
That's kind of the sick joke about WoW in general. The guilds that really get stuff done and break records don't treat their members that way. It's the ones that "want to be" at the top, but aren't that get abusive to meet their goals.

Trouble
12-30-2008, 09:06 AM
You don't need to be abusive, you just need to be able to make hard decisions like benching that nice guy who really sucks, or not giving loot to the guy who is good but has 30% attendance.

Rennadrel
01-06-2009, 09:01 AM
Well there is no such thing as being a hardcore raiding guild these days, cause it's easy mode content that casuals can get into and anyone who is experienced in Naxx could knock it out in 4 hours. Heck, you could clear out Archavon, Sartharion and Malygos in that same time frame or less depending on if your guild knows the fights. When people can pug raids for 10 man Naxx, you know it is easy and the only bosses posing a threat to any competent group of people who have done it before are the last two, which I doubt many pug groups could do without wiping 10 times.

Rennadrel
01-06-2009, 09:05 AM
That's kind of the sick joke about WoW in general. The guilds that really get stuff done and break records don't treat their members that way. It's the ones that "want to be" at the top, but aren't that get abusive to meet their goals.

One of the guys in my guild has the title from Naxx 25 man cause the guild he was in cleared it, however he didn't get to do the whole dungeon, just a few bosses that he got dragged into cause he was a healer, otherwise they treated him like crap and so he left the guild, a couple of other people are also joining us from the same guild cause they are tired of the crap the GM and all the elitist pricks who think they are the best put out. Funny though, they didn't get the server first achievement for killing Malygos, an Alliance guild beat them to it.

minrog
01-07-2009, 03:18 AM
I prefer the progression raiding (world first raiding?) determination instead of hard core versus casual. The definitions of the words themselves vary between individuals and servers. One server might have 5 day a week 4 hours a day as commonplace (therefore casual) where on a different server if you raid 4 days a week you are playing way too much and "have no life".

As for the hard core definition above I think mandatory raid times and class balancing and discipline are all fine attributes. I don't know about dictating skill placement on a bar because it seems to me you are controlling process and not results; plus if they need the positioning on a bar that means they are keyboard turners and fail. :P Spec and gear I get because if you want to win before the rest of the Jones's you have to push the bleeding edge and having some PVP spec in there mucking it up will cause you to wipe too much.

So I'd go back to the goal list. I've found raiding is a fairly simple garbage in garbage out equation. The standards are in place at the front end to prevent the end result from sucking; the more realistic standards you add in the more likely you are to win quickly. Note: Until the servers are shut down for good you will be able to win given enough time. Eventually we will be level 100 and you'll finally be able to take a failraid into level 80 Naxx and kill KJ. heh.

Jasra
01-07-2009, 06:05 AM
You have to keep in mind that "hardcore" and "casual" isn't a switch that's either on or off, it's a spectrum with many shades, so you won't really find a universal definition. Lizana's experience with hardcore used to be fairly common, and I think Tigole and Furor from the dev team can relate to that on some level from their days raiding in Everquest, but it's almost comical in today's WoW environment.

ttocs
01-10-2009, 09:33 PM
That's kind of the sick joke about WoW in general. The guilds that really get stuff done and break records don't treat their members that way. It's the ones that "want to be" at the top, but aren't that get abusive to meet their goals.

It's more than just WoW. It was that way when I played FPS's as well, be it CS:S, RtCW, Q3, whatever.

The truly good teams had you play what you were comfortable with, however you were comfortable with. As long as you were good at what you did, what gives how you do it? As long as it gets done. You also have to be experimental with your spec and gear. It exhibits a willingness to grow and develop, which is important. The game (and the rules) constantly change, you can either adapt to them quickly or use them to your advantage, or you can sit there, whine, and be left behind.

If you have to get that way with your players, you have the wrong players in your guild.

Edit: However, showing up without consumables on progression/hard fights is worth a boot from the raid. Every team I played on had my cell phone number, and I did occasionally get called to log on and scrim or play a match. All in all you're talking about <10 times in about 4-5 years, though.

Kataztrophe
01-12-2009, 03:19 PM
Hard to exactly define "Hardcore", but to me, it's a guild that raids 4-5 hours a night for 4+ days a week during progression, and makes progress. WWS's are reviewed by officers nightly/a few times a week for each individual person to see that everyone is playing to their potential. Also it's a guild that is strict on ginvites and has officers that are quick to fix a situation, and run the guild more as a "company".

I see alot of guilds keep players in the raid that constantly screw up because they are "cool" or they are friendly and get along with everyone. But in a serious raiding guild, those people will get told to fix the problem, or face sitting out of the raid/gkicked.