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Rockellum
12-24-2008, 12:32 AM
I am one of the leaders of a 10-man raiding guild on the perenolde server. Tonight was our first "guild run" of any raid. We decided to try Sartharion, considering a couple of us had led a few successful pugs (2 or 3 shot, once everyone got the strat) We figured it we could easily do it, but that was not the case. It was a miserable wipe fest. We did have to pug a couple people to fill some empty slots..which very well could have contributed to our failure..

My question(s) is this: What do you do as a raid leader when you just can't seem to get a boss down? How do you keep the raid toghether? Especially an easier boss like Sarth when most of the people knew the fight.

I'd also like to say thanks to all in this community, especially ciderhelm for your videos, they are amazing.

Omok
12-24-2008, 12:38 AM
It's hard to analyze the problem when we don't know the factors that contributed to your failure. The first, and most obvious thing, is the people in the raid don't know the encounters. Sartharion is very simple, and one video should be more than enough for people to understand how the fight works. But feel free to explain exactly what went wrong and we can be of more help.

Rockellum
12-24-2008, 01:00 AM
Well, my question was more of how do you keep a raid together when things are going bad? Like I said, myself and a couple others from the guild have led pugs a few times now for Sarth when we didn't have enough guild members and it's been a breeze. For whatever reason tonight as a guild we couldn't do it though, and I just wondered if anyone had tips on keeping the raid together when things aren't going well.

Naturall
12-24-2008, 01:09 AM
Morale-wise?

You've got to continue to coincide with whatever sort of leader you've been in every other situation. If you're the kind of guy who motivates at every turn, then continue doing it. Point out what is going wrong, and how you can see people doing it better, but be constructive about it. If you're more of a tough-love kind of leader, then point out flaws, and let your class leaders take care of babying your guys.

I think the most important thing is consistency. You can't be hard on people one minute, and be completely forgiving another. Its important to strike a balance, and stick with it.

bludwork
12-24-2008, 10:27 PM
your guild won't magically be good if you don't take steps to ensure it is. In otherwords check their gear/specs, run heroics get familiar with each other. Your not knowing (why pug is doing better than guild) is huge red flag to me.

macfeagle
01-05-2009, 08:22 PM
The guild/pug distinction is artificial. A pug with a good attitude, decent gearing and class understanding, boss mods, vent, some knowledge of the encounter, some raid discipline, this person will surely be a greater asset than the stoned kid who is in the raid because he's friends in real life with a raid officer, and every raid seems to have someone in this category.

I pug a lot because I don't believe in pestering people I know to help me do something I can do without bothering them. For every story "guild only" people have about pugs I can give you one about a "full guild group" that pugged me and did something completely inept or stupid because of an inflated sense of their own skill or a misplaced sense of loyalty to someone who is a complete idiot.

Millet
01-06-2009, 02:41 PM
There are a couple of things you can take into consideration.

You have to know what is wrong. Why did it not work? - was it lack of gear? slacking healers? someone got wrong idea of the fight? Satharion is really easy to track for flaws and as a raid leader you have to be able to 'diagnose' the problem.

Once you know - Address the problem and try not to grow a 'blame culture' where you point out who is actually responsible. If for all raid-members you start point our names who did something wrong, in early forming stage of the raiding guild, who do not know each other that well might get bad opinions about others, etc. Just point out what was not done, instead of pointing thingers at members - helps alot. If someone is constantly causing trouble - whisper. You will actually poke the person to get his act together and will not show him from the bad side to others.

Some leaders spam RW and shouting calling every arses etc.... I do not recomend. :D

As someone said: maybe you do not play together enough?

Sangi
01-07-2009, 12:26 PM
There are a couple of things you can take into consideration.

You have to know what is wrong. Why did it not work? - was it lack of gear? slacking healers? someone got wrong idea of the fight? Satharion is really easy to track for flaws and as a raid leader you have to be able to 'diagnose' the problem.

Once you know - Address the problem and try not to grow a 'blame culture' where you point out who is actually responsible. If for all raid-members you start point our names who did something wrong, in early forming stage of the raiding guild, who do not know each other that well might get bad opinions about others, etc. Instead just point out what was not done, instead of pointing fingers - helps alot.

QFT! This! What ever is the meme of the week.

This is probably the single best piece of advice that I have ever seen on these boards.

There is nothing that frustrates me more than hearing from some one "we did it X way with these folks and it worked so it should work every time". Raid situations are not static just because the encounters are. The raid composition, their moods and even their gear and preparedness all changes. Check your strategy. See what parts of it worked and keep those. Then look at what parts of it didn't. Figure out why they didn't then change them til you get it right. This isn't just for progression. Even if you have done a fight 100 times if you fail at it there is something wrong. Assess your situation and adjust the strat accordingly.

Break it down into smaller and smaller pieces and see how people performed and how well they felt it helped. After a wipe on progression I do a by the numbers call out to people in the raid to check the strat. I get opinions from healers, tanks, DPS and any special roles for each phase to see how it went also with my commentary with what I think is wrong. I find this helps identify it to a specific area. It also stops 10 people talking at once on vent giving changes and suggestions.

Rockellum
01-12-2009, 01:29 AM
Some really good advice here and I appreciate all of it. There's a lot of stuff I'll take from here and apply to our runs. I'm happy to say the next week we one shot Sarth, then moved on to clear the Spider and Plague wings along with Patchwerk.

Rockellum
01-12-2009, 01:32 AM
The guild/pug distinction is artificial. A pug with a good attitude, decent gearing and class understanding, boss mods, vent, some knowledge of the encounter, some raid discipline, this person will surely be a greater asset than the stoned kid who is in the raid because he's friends in real life with a raid officer, and every raid seems to have someone in this category.

I pug a lot because I don't believe in pestering people I know to help me do something I can do without bothering them. For every story "guild only" people have about pugs I can give you one about a "full guild group" that pugged me and did something completely inept or stupid because of an inflated sense of their own skill or a misplaced sense of loyalty to someone who is a complete idiot.


Very true, a PuG on our server recently downed malygos. I wasn't at all trying to diss PuGs, but I figured that if we could get 10 people together and do it no problem, then our guild should have no trouble at all.

minrog
01-13-2009, 04:35 AM
In Soviet Russia PUGs drop you. Or something.

I've found PUGs to be all right. I'm a tank though so I only need them to be semi-competent to be able to win in a heroic dungeon. We got the timed proto drake from CoT with no DPS'er doing more than 2k damage last night, lucky placement on the add packs but yeah we did manage to do it. The only PUGs I've had that were stellar were when it was all guys from other raiding guilds. They might pull aggro on aoe packs (warlocks...) more often but I'll take their 4k dps and be more dilligent taunting stragglers.

I'd suggest you start logging your combats into a log file and parsing them into either wowwebstats (if you can handle the fact sometimes BM hunters will cry) or one of the other 8 or 10 combat log parsers. Sucking it up for an entire night gives you a really good way to look for bad skill rotations and that kind of thing. Any player can look like they know what they are doing if their raid carried them through a bunch of kills but when you see "453 Moonfires, 28 Starfires, 11 Insect Swarms" it's pretty blatant that they have no clue how to play their Druid. This is just one example but you can follow it through for other classes fairly well, especially if you cross reference their spec's rotations with EJ forums or class specific sites like Tankspot. (word of caution: Everyone believes they are right. Even stastical data won't help if you run into the guys "I play the way I want because I'm a free thinker and I don't want to be FoTM". You're not going to be able to work with them on that so you either have to figure you're 24 manning the content or remove them. It's not like you talk to the guys who dominate the charts and do everything right so the truly gifted free thinkers don't apply here heh)

With Sartharion herself it also helps to watch and see who didnt avoid the fire wall. Some people suck at avoiding things and on Sarth it puts strain on the raid because of the mechanic with the adds. If you think it would get you the kill you could make the bad avoiders sit out that boss fight like they used to do with Archimonde.

Morale. People like winning. Find ways to let them win even if you don't think they are great achievements. Consider that it might be the tactics or lack of understanding of the fight mechanics that are causing you to lose. Back in the BWL days we tried a 1 group per corner strat for Razorgore and we failed to beat him for almost 3 months. We finally changed our strat to account for the fact we were healer/tank heavy (the 10 DPS floating + tank group per corner method) and we beat him in 2 pulls. It isn't a good strat if your team has no way to make it function, what works for Nihilum/SK Gaming wouldn't work for my guild because they simply aren't good enough at the game to pull it off.

If your problem is with the 3 drakes and not with Sarth then it might be your portal guys. I know everyone wants to burn down the shadow one instead of killing the guy in the portal but if you are low DPS you can't afford the shadow damage debuff stacks so you haveta send your guys into the portal. I've never even tried to have people kill those eggs but perhaps there is a method you could try for that if the whelplings are wiping you.

Hope it helped a little, good luck. :)

Ohnoto
01-13-2009, 07:15 AM
As long as the raid leader does his research on PUGs it shouldn't be too bad.

As guild leader and raid leader there have been plenty of times that I have had to PUG 1-3 people. I usually get spammed with messages from people wanting to go, but I look for specific things.

1. If they are guildless, why? Usually guildless people will be the worst to bring. As the previous poster said, those players from current known raiding guilds will be the best for you.
2. Check WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings (http://wow-heroes.com) as it ranks thier gear based on thier spec to see what they are better at handling, as well as show raid achievements all on the same page. This will show you if a player has completed certain parts of raids.
3. Use Recount in raids and instances to get an idea of how well players are. This includes looking at not just the DPS, but the Healing part of it and the dispells part to know that each player is doing thier part.

If you are a raid leader, keep a big friends list of better players you have played with so that you can contact them quickly if you need a certain type of player. If that player can't go, even asking if someone in their guild can go helps build a reputation.

This past weekend we finished off Naxxramas 10 for the first time in my guild. We did have 3 PUGs though, because not many were logged on. Those PUGs had frost resist gear for Sapphiron and 2 of them had done Kel'Thuzad. We one shot Sapphiron and 3rd try killed Kel'Thuzad. After completing the raid, one of the healers we had PUGged switched to our guild.

If you are having trouble on one particular fight, take a few minute break and have everyone to go watch a video on the fight. Specifically the ones here on Tankspot. Taking those few minutes can also help clear some peoples head since they will get up, walk around, get something to eat, etc, but always make sure they watch a video if they are having trouble.