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View Full Version : How do you feel about... Death Knights?



Pizzashark
12-21-2008, 12:09 PM
I've seen a lot of people sling around the "overpowered" crap when talking about DKs, but I've been withholding my opinion until I get more experience fighting them (and get to 80.)

So far, I've learned a few things about them:

If they're Unholy (signs: Bone Shield, named ghoul), their pet is actually worth something. It's also similarly worth chain fearing (or chain shackling, if you're a priest) to prevent them from getting much use from it. Besides some bonus DPS, it also has a stun - the only true DK stun, I believe.

All DKs rely on their diseases and debuffs in order to pull off big number combos. Pure of Heart and Cleanse-spamming really seems to aggravate them, because I've noticed they tend to try to get those diseases back up quickly (so I can just Cleanse them again...) Frost seems to rely on Frost Fever a lot.

If they don't have Death Grip ready, they actually aren't too hard to get away from. Chains of Ice is dispellable. I've had a lot of DKs Death Grip+Chains of Ice me (possibly a macro, they seem to land at the same time), and that's a great time for me to pop off Hammer of Noob and get some distance. They really do seem to have issues closing the game, especially since Judgement of Justice prevents them from taking advantage of Unholy Aura.

I honestly haven't seen Lichborne too much lately. It could be because the Frost DKs are smart enough not to do it near a Paladin, or maybe it was on cooldown. Either way, it's a death warrant (or at the very least a wasted cooldown) against a pally or priest.

I don't feel DKs are overpowered at this point. I consistently beat a 74 (I'm 70, by the way, and don't have WotLK just yet; Left 4 Dead took my gaming money this month) who I want to say was Frost (she seemed absolutely dead-set on trying to keep Frost Fever on me) one-on-one in Warsong Gulch earlier. I also don't think Retardins are overpowered, either (though seemingly everyone else says they are), since I spent a good 30 minutes mopping the floor with a 74 on Quel'danas yesterday :P

Petninja
12-21-2008, 12:13 PM
They're getting pvp nerfs, if that's any indication.

Brainwreck
12-22-2008, 01:52 AM
I am having a relatively tough time with them right now. Their large amounts of self healing ability and damage reduction makes it very hard for me to kill them.

I am relatively inexperienced against them though, so I could just be doing so mething completely wrong.

Chisgule
12-22-2008, 05:21 AM
I'm finding that they're not so bad.

1) use spell reflect almost every time it's up (you can reflect deathgrip BTW, which pulls them to you)
2) If you have silences, apply them liberally (basically every time they're up)

Combined with stuns, these first two items will dramatically reduce the DK's damage output. If you're in arena this will depend a lot on your combo, but I find that with a prot war/holy pal combo it was critical for me to keep peeling the DK off the holy pal. I haven't had trouble with this yet, but then again we're only 1669 rating so far = )

ttocs
12-22-2008, 09:36 AM
I've only done a couple 2v2 matches, but the only time (on my DK) where I've run into a *ton* of trouble is when I played a Holy Pally/Warlock (we were Holy Pally/DK).

5v5's.. yeah. I'm almost never FF'd (I have crappy DPS gear, as my main spec is to tank), but that's probably because they see bone shield and go for someone more squishy, like the arms warrior, ele shammy or rogue. FWIW, we were a melee heavy team, and we've beat some prior gladiator teams, but were losing to a team that kited to death (HPally/BMHunter/ArcMage/ShSRogue/UhDK). Our comp was originally supposed to have a hunter, but he was out for the evening.

Most higher-end pvp DK's are unholy, and some (I haven't yet) even spec'd into 30% dispel resist. If you're deep frost, you have several talents that apply frost fever (normally it's just IT that does that). Most of the time, though, I haven't run into issues with dispel's in 5's. With IT/PS/Pest, you can quickly diseases the 5 players, making it pretty difficult for them to juggle dispels and heals.

Glyph of Death and Decay is Overpowered in it's current state. I would almost exclusively spam that in Alterac Valley turtle-fests, just to watch healers get interrupted, casters become a non-issue, and rogues pop out cowering. Dropping a single death and decay on a group standing on the SP GY flag (or even any of the AB flags) is pretty much all you need to get 2-3 people to overtake 4-5+ people.

With that said, I still need a bunch of practice. My abliity to play 1v1's kinda.. sucks. But, considernig I haven't really pvp'd before this weekend (aside from world pvp, where a retadin does the usual Repentance -> HoJ -> Judge, Seal, CrS, /lol), I guess it wasn't too bad.

Oh, and Strangulate isn't overpowered. But it is amazing.

kolben
12-22-2008, 10:00 AM
They are fairly overpowered. I don't need a graphing calculator to know that. My brother who hasn't played a melee in years was killing players 5+ levels higher than him with ease in battlegrounds, as in not even difficult.

Tanking-wise from what I understand they are fine with gear just like everyone else.

Lore
12-22-2008, 11:22 AM
They are fairly overpowered. I don't need a graphing calculator to know that. My brother who hasn't played a melee in years was killing players 5+ levels higher than him with ease in battlegrounds, as in not even difficult.

One is not an indication of the other. There's too much extra noise in battlegrounds.

Players often think classes are overpowered that they just haven't figured out how to kill yet. This isn't limited to WoW either. It happens most frequently at expansion release, right after major class updates, and when new classes are added, just because the entire player base is having to adapt.

There are some minor nerfs coming (particularly to IBF), but nothing is too particularly broken.

kolben
12-22-2008, 11:26 AM
If you say so, and I don't necessarily disagree but this isn't really a case of him being an elite PVP master with the DK class. What he was laughing at was that he didn't really feel like he even knew what he was doing and was having no problems 1v1 or 1v2 against players who out-leveled him in WSG. That's not underpowered lol.

Lore
12-22-2008, 11:35 AM
He was also not at 80.

Death Knights are usually overpowered in sub-80 PVP, particularly the 50-59 bracket but also in the 60-69 bracket, largely because they're given a lot of excellent gear from the starting area. They're also facing players who are specced for leveling, where the Death Knight doesn't have a lot of "leveling-only" talents, and who probably haven't fought many Death Knights before.

At 80 you get:
- People specced for PVP
- People geared for PVP
- People with experience fighting Death Knights

Given personal experience that Level 80 Death Knights are not invulnerable and, in fact, can be killed, and I have NO worries about taking on a level 75 Death Knight out in the open no matter my spec, I think calling them "overpowered" is a bit much.

Bloodwraith
12-24-2008, 07:47 PM
If you're looking for a no skill comp I ran across one today.

2 Mirror image mages in org arena. Gates drop and they've got all the duplicates casting. No where to hide, no rage for spell reflect. I died at exactly the point that all of their casts completed.

ttocs
12-25-2008, 02:17 PM
Sounds like a time for Shield Wall.

I usually DnD mirror images, but I'm probably going to rely more on pestilence and save the runes/cooldown for the fear/interrupt.

soliduck
12-28-2008, 12:37 PM
The only time I felt that a DK did something unfair in arena was when he kited me down to ~5% with Chains of Ice and then killed me when he came back as a Ghoul.

(2v2 as Prot with a Ret Pally, both of our teammates died)

Warwench
12-28-2008, 12:45 PM
I dont like DK's and it's for several reasons.

Reason #1, they suffer from the same things as Pallies.. the "we want to tank aswell as a Warrior but do more damage, more threat" syndrome.. they want it all. There are very little draw backs to a DK (or Pally) tank in a lot of situations.

Reason #2 is they are most often piloted by people who have no clue.

Reason #3, Group of 4 LF Healer for Ramps = me on healer alt healing 4 DK's who all insist on tanking their own mob because.. well.. see reason 2.

Basically though, Death Knights are the answer to a question no one asked. we didnt need another Tank class, we had 3 perfectly good tank classes that after tweaking them for 3.0.2 basically solved the "tank shortage" problem.

No matter what it is claimed, Blizzards idea of tank "ballance" only involves mitigation. They pay next to no regard for anything a class can do outside of mitigating damage and their efforts revolve around making sure all 4 classes can mitigate damage similarly. No thought is given to utility outside the tanking role, threat, or damage and that is my basic problem with DK's.

soliduck
12-29-2008, 09:36 PM
I dont like DK's and it's for several reasons.

Reason #1, they suffer from the same things as Pallies.. the "we want to tank aswell as a Warrior but do more damage, more threat" syndrome.. they want it all. There are very little draw backs to a DK (or Pally) tank in a lot of situations.

Reason #2 is they are most often piloted by people who have no clue.

Reason #3, Group of 4 LF Healer for Ramps = me on healer alt healing 4 DK's who all insist on tanking their own mob because.. well.. see reason 2.

Basically though, Death Knights are the answer to a question no one asked. we didnt need another Tank class, we had 3 perfectly good tank classes that after tweaking them for 3.0.2 basically solved the "tank shortage" problem.

No matter what it is claimed, Blizzards idea of tank "ballance" only involves mitigation. They pay next to no regard for anything a class can do outside of mitigating damage and their efforts revolve around making sure all 4 classes can mitigate damage similarly. No thought is given to utility outside the tanking role, threat, or damage and that is my basic problem with DK's.

Nine out of ten strawmen play Death Knights.
Its a known fact.

manicus
01-05-2009, 12:02 AM
I'm on the "don't like" bandwagon as well.

I have yet to meet a player that played a DK well.

They seem to suffer from the same thing as ret paladins.

OMG HOLLY WARRIR OF LAIT! == OMG ONHOLLY WARRIR OF DAKRNSSE.



Reason #1, they suffer from the same things as Pallies.. the "we want to tank aswell as a Warrior but do more damage, more threat" syndrome.. they want it all. There are very little draw backs to a DK (or Pally) tank in a lot of situations.

Reason #2 is they are most often piloted by people who have no clue.

Reason #3, Group of 4 LF Healer for Ramps = me on healer alt healing 4 DK's who all insist on tanking their own mob because.. well.. see reason 2.


Although I'm not really following #1, I loathe the idea of 2h/dual wield tanking.
If you aren't sword and boarding or magically being a bear, you're not tanking on my runs. I simply cant wrap my head around 2h-swords being better than 1h+shield. I think this might have something to do with #2

Apparently ret paladins and deathknights attract 14-year old kids that want to see high numbers and be omg imba. I don't like them. :-)

xTSTONEx
01-05-2009, 01:29 PM
If you aren't sword and boarding or magically being a bear, you're not tanking on my runs. I simply cant wrap my head around 2h-swords being better than 1h+shield. I think this might have something to do with #2



Because DKs can get insane amounts of avoidance. I've been MTing Naxx/OS/Vault for quite a while now and have no problem with it. I realize warriors want to be the only tanks in the game but that's not the case anymore.

Genova
01-05-2009, 01:50 PM
Im on the not like bus as well. Every time I encounter one in pvp I get owned, now I realize I have 0 PvP gear and that is a bad on my part, but it seems at the last level cap I could still hold my own against even ret pallies in battlegrounds with less than 200 resilience.

The class takes hardly any skill to play, no offense to hunters, but I put it in terms with a hunter... Easy Cheezey DPS. This doesnt mean anyone can play it well however.

As far as a class goes, I enjoy the lore and the fact that there is something different. But why couldnt Blizz make it hard enough that it TAKES a Hero to play one, not a 13 year old who is aw350m3.

Check out
2v2 Rankings - Arena Junkies (http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/2v2/)

How many deathknights and Pallies are there.. hmm.



Although I'm not really following #1, I loathe the idea of 2h/dual wield tanking.
If you aren't sword and boarding or magically being a bear, you're not tanking on my runs. I simply cant wrap my head around 2h-swords being better than 1h+shield.
I lol'd at your comment on magically being a bear. :D

Bloodwraith
01-05-2009, 01:53 PM
This should give you an idea on what class representation is currently: World of Warcraft Arena Ranking | SK Gaming (http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player)

Pally, then DK, then Rogue. Who coulda guessed :p

Nightdemon
01-05-2009, 10:14 PM
Quite sad that we have to be generalised based on the number of players you've happened to encounter who are bad at playing DK. With DK being a new Class, people havent had the same amount of time to master playing them, and so admittedly, I can see why theres so many 'noobs' out there. Some though, just deserve to be slapped.

I'd personally be insulted if you refused to let me tank your heroic or so... :P Seeing how I, and many other DKs in general can, and do maintank 25 man content, heroics / 10 mans are a cakewalk anyway <.<

manicus
01-06-2009, 02:02 AM
Sorry for turning the thread towards a pve perspective, anyways...

I have, as i said before, yet to see a properly played deathknight.

Deathknights always fall into one of two categories:

#1 omg high numbars and undeth.
#2 omg dual weld tanking is imba.

Neither works out well.

This has nothing to do with warriors wanting to be the only tanks around. I am perfectly fine with druids and paladins, however, from personal experiences, a huge amount of the death knight population is just either not good enough to tank, or are 14-year old retarded kids.

I realize that there of cause are good death knights out there that are maintanking and having a blast, but what i'm saying is, that these guys/girls are a very small part of the death knight player base.

(I just now realize that this could have been said a couple of years ago if you replace "death knight" with "paladin").

That being said, I don't like the death knight style of tanking. Parry avoidance tanking is just not my cup of tea. This is a personal preference, and not really something you can sway me from. The whole concept seems to be based around "looking cool while doing it" and the premises of the dk tanking concept had to be patched with a "lulz no shield, what do we do now" approach.

Genova
01-06-2009, 08:44 AM
Quite sad that we have to be generalised based on the number of players you've happened to encounter who are bad at playing DK. With DK being a new Class, people havent had the same amount of time to master playing them, and so admittedly, I can see why theres so many 'noobs' out there. Some though, just deserve to be slapped.

I'd personally be insulted if you refused to let me tank your heroic or so... :P Seeing how I, and many other DKs in general can, and do maintank 25 man content, heroics / 10 mans are a cakewalk anyway <.<

I know I made a big general statement, but I have a reason for it... my general theory of deathknight easyness. Ill tell a story

I have a freind who started playing wow at the same time as me, the same day actually. He started playing a rogue, I started my druid, and while we were leveling he was blowing me out the water as far how fast he was going.

Now once he got to 60ish, he reailzed that you had to have more than 4 buttons on your bar. I mean this literally, he only used 4 buttons. He would always die and get killed by the boars in hellfire and couldnt level as fast. Well time came I got to 70.. he quit playing as much cause the game wasnt fun anymore, it got hard because he couldnt just run up to stuff and eviserate it to death, then the xpac came out and by that time he had gotten to 70, very slowly (With all green gear, because he is the kind of player that doesnt understand this game at all like 0 understanding he will go attack the boss before the tank does, he will whine when the priest doesnt heal him first instead of the tank).

When wrath came out he rolled a Deathknight... and low and behold he is a good player, he starts bragging to me how he can kill level 65 hunters and stuff as a 60 DK. I know none of you know this guy as well as me, but trust me if you did, you will see that the DK class is too easy to play.

Sorry for wall-o-text. :cool:

Nightdemon
01-06-2009, 08:50 AM
DKs are pretty over-powered in the lower levels. People arent specced for PvP, and not many people know how to counter DKs at that level (May be an alt, but when playing a different char, things change). DKs are far from being a class where hitting 4 buttons will work. Things need to be timed, and a rotation needs to be used to maximise a DKs potential.

At 80, its a different story all together. Hell, WoW isnt exactly a tough game to play in general. If DKs are so easy, other classes arent really being used as comparison.

cdweller0
01-07-2009, 04:27 PM
Either as Fury or Prot, running into a DK (who knew how to play well enough) has, at best, been an annoying perspective. They are incredibly powerful! I powerleveled JC on my orc DK at level 65 to do the northrend JC dailies. I can do all but the ones that require you to kill any northrend revenant. At 65, I could pick out some level 70 proto drake whelps to kill for the daily. Now at 66, I can grab the level 71s too. Worse, I can kill 3-4 in a row without downtime. It is pretty sick.

Pizzashark
01-08-2009, 06:29 AM
In my experience as a Holy Paladin, DKs are largely screwed over if you can keep your distance and dispel the diseases. My usual attack plan is to judge Justice and exploit the movement speed difference (I move at 115% while they're now limited to 100%) and keep out of melee range while harassing them with judgements (which do pretty much no damage for Holy) and Holy Shock. Mixing it up in melee with them is doable, but it's risky because of the Strangulate bug (which makes the silence last LONGER if you have Improved Concentration Aura) and their pummel (Mind Freeze, I think it's called.)

The pet is largely a non-issue, because I keep it feared for most of the fight and slowly whittle its health down with repeated Exorcisms. I haven't run into any Lichborne-using DKs yet, but I've become fond of Holy Wrath against ghoul pets and Shadow of Death DKs, even though it's expensive.

A good DK is a difficult fight, but also - by far - the most enjoyable fight for me so far. At no point have I felt they're overpowered, but they're still tough enough that it's challenging.

Ray
01-08-2009, 07:01 AM
Wow, so much hate??

First off, complaining about them being overpowered at lower lvls is just stupid. yeah, I could own anyone in hellfire that wasnt a DK in PVP, why? Because im wearing WotLK lvl equivalent blues and the other person is wearing at best a few quest BC greens. So, come on, its not a far fight to begin with due to gear.

2nd DK's are given many lvling advantages to encourage people to actually roll them with release. If I couldnt have powered through the first 15 lvls to get to northrend, why even bother rolling one when I could do what I wanted with another class

3rd At lvl 80, DK's are not more than a nuisence in a BG. They do little to no damage in crap gear. Yeah there hard to kill, and there getting the nerf bat there, but again, they do no damage. Now, if they have good gear, they can be very powerful, but then again so can everyone else.

4th DK's take no skill to play?? huh what? I could say that about any other class really if I wanted to qq..... I garanutee that the top ranked DK's in the world are pretty skilled players, just throwing that out there.

5th dont complain about getting owned in PVP if your not speced for it or have no PVP gear. I eat raid geared people for lunch when I PVP. Raid gear is for either doing tons of dam or healing, not for taking lots of damage. I mean I could QQ about how hard it is to kill a prot war in a BG (or even a prot pally who is my bane) cuz there impossible to kill and do pretty good damage.

/end wallotext

Myth3000
01-08-2009, 08:29 AM
Sorry for turning the thread towards a pve perspective, anyways...

I have, as i said before, yet to see a properly played deathknight.

Deathknights always fall into one of two categories:

#1 omg high numbars and undeth.
#2 omg dual weld tanking is imba.

Neither works out well.

This has nothing to do with warriors wanting to be the only tanks around. I am perfectly fine with druids and paladins, however, from personal experiences, a huge amount of the death knight population is just either not good enough to tank, or are 14-year old retarded kids.

I realize that there of cause are good death knights out there that are maintanking and having a blast, but what i'm saying is, that these guys/girls are a very small part of the death knight player base.

(I just now realize that this could have been said a couple of years ago if you replace "death knight" with "paladin").

That being said, I don't like the death knight style of tanking. Parry avoidance tanking is just not my cup of tea. This is a personal preference, and not really something you can sway me from. The whole concept seems to be based around "looking cool while doing it" and the premises of the dk tanking concept had to be patched with a "lulz no shield, what do we do now" approach.


Well, I MT 10 mans and OT 25s by default(GM is a tank), I prefer to DW to stack runes and add the extra def (Just my preference).
In response to noob players, there's an equal amount in every class, and in my 4 years of wow most are warriors, paladins and hunters. They'd have the gear/level/spec and just stunk. No class will ever replace warriors as THE boss tank, they excel at it, were built for it and will always be the singl target tank. Paladins excel at shorter boss fights and trash and will always be an AoE tank. DK/Druids are somewhere in the middle, we don't excel at either, but are good at both and have our own ways of mitigation/avoidance/threat. 2H tanking is our TPS+high stam/str. We have talents/abilities comparable to warriors, your Block is our added avoidance, but in the end we take around the same damage in a fight.

As for pvp ( I mainly go as UH), paladins still retain a lot of thier OP status, 1 vs 1 against a paladin is and will always be a coin toss for me due to thier ability to stun, burst equal to mine, bubble, heal and cleanse. Warlocks will always be tough due to thier extremely effective CC that will not break upon damage taken no matter the amount, and it's spammable ffs, oh and they can sorta-blink now.

This is the problem with calling a class OP, because every class has an ability that is OP. There's really nothing remotely OP about DKs post leveling. We lose all our flair, our mystery and become just another kite-able class. Death grip loses it's usefulness as a gap closer due to th copious amounts of snares, stuns, fears, and speed increases a DK will face versus our easily CC'd, lack of effective CC and leveled DPS, and reliance on CDs. There's no spammable ability for us right out of the gate, we have to use the 6 runes we have, runic power abilities and wait or pray for procs. Nothing OP about that compared to other classes. Ever been Mirro-image nuked by two mages? Not pretty. Ever went up against 2 DKs and felt that overwhelmed? Probably not.

As for DKs being easy to play...I've played every class this game has to offer. They're all the same, DK combat is about timing, combo set up, an execution. In order for us to maximise DPS we need to keep diseases up, be prudent about rune usage and wasting our CDs as some are extremely long. In raid I use IT-PS-HS-HS-DS/OB-IT-PS-HS-HS-HS-HS(to give an example, and in DC while runes are on CD. A lot of hunters I know use 2 buttons in combat, some only 1 and produce similar DPS to mine. To the guy with the DK friend, rogues are not a simple class to learn, combo system, poison choice, weapon choice, finisher choice, ability management, easily killed, lack of effective heal, reliance on being stealth. Just as an example of a class.

Beardly
01-13-2009, 12:18 PM
the op knows exactly how to shut down a good dk, its really not that hard when you can play your class. Retardins are also not that hard to kill, all you have to do is roll dk ^.^ (unless you play against a decent retadin, that is...then your screwed)
just cleanse them diseases, it cuts our damage output by like...alot