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cjc813
12-20-2008, 04:39 AM
Do you ever tank for someone and end up asking yourself, "what the hell is wrong with this guy?"

If walls of text crit your eyes for 8k... the bold text at the bottom is about when I get to the point. :)

I'll try to be brief on my storytelling...

So I pugged Heroic Nexus last night and generally it went well. We had myself, a prot warrior, 2 mages, a resto shaman healer and an undergeared hunter. (Don't get me wrong, she's not a huntard by any means, she's just a new 80 and too damn stubborn to gear before heroics.)

Now, the run went well IMO. We only wiped a couple times but those were due to small simple mistakes made by various party members. It happens.

At any rate we get to the dragon boss and wipe with less than 20% of her HP to go. I made sure to stay mobile and avoid the DoTs and the fight went well for about 60 seconds at which point our top DPS (one of the mages) died from the DoTs.

Couple minutes later my healer went OOM due to a lack of DPS and the fight was pretty much over.

On the run back in, the very same mage that was the first to die decided to tell me to, "jump when you attack."

I replied, "I stayed mobile, and the only time her DoT stacked on me was when I was frozen to the ground."

"Well, it's better to jump." He says.

I told him to stop telling me how to do the fight when he was the first to die from the very thing he's trying to teach me to avoid. His response was, "I know a certain little tank who's on his period..." And the situation devolved into childish insults from there.

I let him know he can either stop being a jerk, or I can leave. At which point he decides that I'm "threatening him," drops party and hearths, calling me a "scrub tank" on his way out.

Being the hot-head that I am, I /wisper him and ask him, "What the hell is your problem?"

The discussion ends with the consensus being that he is butthurt b/c I threatened him and that I need better gear before I can elbow my way around threatening people.

Now, I have 20k HP, 21k Armor and 540 Defense. I meet the benchmarks, and outside of Heroics there's not much more gear I'm going to get. And like I said, most of the run went fine.

What gets me though was when he told me this, "I didn't inspect you or anything, but I know you need better gear b/c without CC the healer went OOM on you all the time."

So I responded... "What you're saying to me is that while you have no idea how to play a tanking toon, and you have no idea what gear I'm currently wearing, you feel it appropriate to insult my gear when we hit a snag in heroics?"

He switched gears after that and went back to how I have no right to "threaten" him.

But my point is... people like this make me hate this game sometimes.

Heroics are not the same as regular 5-mans. In a regular 5-man it's routine for a good tank/healer combo to drag 3 idiots through a dungeon with no wipes.

In Heroics, everyone should know what they're doing. Which means it's your job to do as much as you can, not just sit back and pew pew or throw fireballs.

It pisses me off when people who have never EVER played a tank in their life decide that when you're tanking 4 mobs in a Heroic and your healer goes OOM this makes you a scrub. (No one died.)

It pisses me off that when you ask for CC on a 4 mob pull some smarmy mage automatically assumes you're a scrub tank.

I really do wonder what the hell is wrong with people like that, and to be honest, they take a lot of fun out of this game we all love to play.

The the most challenging aspect of WoW is not the content, it's the players.

Sorry for the wall of text. ;)

hichris
12-20-2008, 04:48 AM
People make me sad. My favorite thing (or well, least favorite) is people laughing when I say "ATLEAST 1500 DPS" in heroic Stratholme for hte mount run, and the very same person pulling 1300, and telling me "use thunderclap, I have to hold back"

Well... If you're having to hold back, you obviously aren't doing anything. I know for a fact I've never had to have anyone hold back on single target, AoE tanking is a little different, but Its never been an outwardly serious issue, and most players I've run with, are smart enough to fade... iceblock, bubble, tank, or bring the mob back to me.

1300 DPS? Thats... like a joke to hold agro over...

Sorry for my rant, but smiliar situation, different faces.

Shoutout to all the tanks out there who aren't good enough, because some mage thinks thunderclap is the endall be all move.


Just an edit, Jumping is better, imo, but its more polite to suggest things, not tell someone how to do it.

Roana
12-20-2008, 04:50 AM
For what it's worth, jumping is indeed much better than moving around. It is fairly critical for the rest of the party to avoid the breath and the tail swipe, and that is much easier if Keristrasza is kept stationary.

I've healed the place (on normal) enough that I am pretty tired of tanks who keep pointing her back or front towards me. Especially if they then complain about the lack of healing after her tail swipe knocks me out of range.

Just because somebody is rude doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong.

Dreg
12-20-2008, 04:53 AM
he said mobile that doesn't mean runnign around in circles ... tapping your strafe buttons back and forth is as good as jumping.

cjc813
12-20-2008, 04:54 AM
For what it's worth, jumping is indeed much better than moving around. It is fairly critical for the rest of the party to avoid the breath and the tail swipe, and that is much easier if Keristrasza is kept stationary.

I've healed the place (on normal) enough that I am pretty tired of tanks who keep pointing her back or front towards me. Especially if they then complain about the lack of healing after her tail swipe knocks me out of range.

Just because somebody is rude doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong.
I didn't run around in circles like an idiot as much as I repeatedly tapped A and D to strafe slightly left and right. Tapping A and D seems simple to me and TBH, spamming the spacebar didn't even occur to me.

But you did mention info about the boss fight that I was unaware of so for that I thank you.

Gradon
12-20-2008, 04:59 AM
Sounds like 98% of the damned pre-teen little bastards I somehow find myself grouped with... It's REALLY turned me off to playing as of late... maybe I should be looking into a sever transfer.

Mom bought you that toon? Great, why don't you stick to PvP?

jettzypher
12-20-2008, 05:25 AM
damned pre-teen little bastards I somehow find myself grouped with why a decent guild and/or set of friends that you know well enough is good. never have to put up with that crap. immature people are half the reason i refuse to do pugs if i dont know at least one person (other half being ive done enough in the past and they all failed...12 straight runs in uldaman and never completed a single quest? rediculous)

i honestly say good ridance to the dude. from the way you described him, im sure he was a pain the whole time, and i would have snapped and booted him or left myself earlier.

Gradon
12-20-2008, 05:35 AM
I've tried in all my years of playing WoW to get something like that going. I think I'm a rare exception when it comes to this game as only up until TBC launch I was the only person I knew that played this game. And getting to know "online" people when I'm an altoholic makes it very hard.

cjc813
12-20-2008, 05:47 AM
why a decent guild and/or set of friends that you know well enough is good. never have to put up with that crap. immature people are half the reason i refuse to do pugs if i dont know at least one person (other half being ive done enough in the past and they all failed...12 straight runs in uldaman and never completed a single quest? rediculous)

i honestly say good ridance to the dude. from the way you described him, im sure he was a pain the whole time, and i would have snapped and booted him or left myself earlier.
He was actually pretty cool for most of the run until I "threatened" him.

I gotta point out that me saying (and this is damn near exactly what I said), "One more bullshit comment and I hearth." Isn't me threatening, as much as it is me saying, "You don't play nice. I'm packing up my toys and going home." The message I wanted to convey was the he could either stop insulting me, or I could leave. What should I have done? Stood there and took it? (I know I should have kicked him... but technically it was his group since he got it together.)

He was there to get marks for a mammoth mount from Wintergrasp and I think that was the crux of the issue. Once he got his marks, he ran and got the mount as we were losing Wintergrasp. We then came back for the final boss at which point he decides to tell me what to do and then call me a scrub.

I find that rather... convienient...

Now I wasn't exactly nice by telling him to not tell me how to do something and pointing out his own death, but I look at it like this...

First of all, he died from the exact thing he was telling me how to avoid.

Second, he didn't specify. He simply said jump, and instead of saying, "kk" I instead told him not to tell me what to do. Had he only said, "Jumping in place is a good idea so you can hold the boss still and we can avoid her tail-swipe," then I would have said, "Oh, okay."

And the run would have been over within 10 minutes.

Edit:
There's something I touched on before but wanted to talk about more in depth...

This is bloggish and I'm ranting, but people are reading so I must not be too abrasive. Anyway...

I mentioned the part about there being a difference between reg and heroic and how in there is more stuff to concern yourself with. Yet all the time I find people with the mentality that if a tank can do it in a 5-man, they should be able to do it in a Heroic.

And this is often not the case...

Tanks are not magical beings capable of mitigating all the damage a particular healer can't heal through. If we pull a mob, we take damage. If we pull two mobs, we take TWICE the damage. And you would think that someone wearing leather or cloth would realize exactly how hard heroic mobs hit, but for some reason they don't. And if a tank takes too much damage, it's his fault.

It's never the healer.

Or a lack of CC.

Or a lack of DPS resulting in longer fights and more damge.

Or the fact that many people don't follow a simple kill order intended to remove one source of damage within the first five seconds of a pull.

No. They just sit back spamming AE, and if the tank takes too much damage he needs to suck less.

This is turning into QQ so I'm going to stop myself here. ;)

Sanelora
12-20-2008, 06:04 AM
If someone is being a prick, i would say, just deal with it in general. One day someone will put them in their place - if you know you can then save everyone the trouble and give them what they deserve!

It is not so much of a problem if a group falls apart. you WILL get another group and i know that it is annoying to fill gaps like that in a party so make sure to keep a well-stocked friends list of the best healers/dps you know.


Sounds like 98% of the damned pre-teen little bastards I somehow find myself grouped with... It's REALLY turned me off to playing as of late... maybe I should be looking into a sever transfer.

Mom bought you that toon? Great, why don't you stick to PvP?

for what its worth, some of those "Pre-teen little bastards" have the potential to be good players. I know a few people who are skilled players who are made fun of and are discriminated against for being so young.

to be quite honest with you, THIS is the attitude that pisses me off about people in general. I hate to sound like a prick but making blanket statements like that is just plain uncool.


Let me give you an example of why this is wrong:

People make up their minds about you IRL in the first two seconds that they see you, you start with a context in which to address the person and what they are expecting you to do in the immediate future.

If you dont believe that, think about meeting a guy in a dirty polo shirt, a dirty beard, who obvioulsy hasnt showered in a few weeks. Your nose, eyes and ears (probably) will go off stating that this man is to be treated with some caution.

If you meet a starry-eyed 20 year old business-man who is clean shaven, with short hair, a clean pin-stripe suit with a pale pink tie (not "gay", but "warm") wearing a good cologne. almost everything about that will make dealing with him much more desirable.

However, you need to give people a chance- you should form a context on how to REACT to people as opposed to what they are and what they arent. - You can not for the life of you say who is the better sailor out of the two examples i gave.

If you see my point, good. If you dont, fine. All i am trying to say is treat everyone a little more like an equal and then you may find that they will perform better.

Dreg
12-20-2008, 06:07 AM
hes not refering to people he hasn't met yet... if you saw "Mr. pin striped suit" for the 2nd time and the first time he was incompetent and rude would you want to deal with him again?

adrenalize
12-20-2008, 06:09 AM
I had a simalar experience in heroic Utgarde Pinnacle.

Except it was the healer who decided that, from the off, my Gear was "horrible"

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Azjol-Nerub&n=adrenalize)

Then, I couldn't get threat on a trash mob, as he would not move from where he was so I could LOS pull it, that was my fault.

Then we wiped because the Mage in the group let his aoe rip a little too early, again, that was my fault.

All three bosses we did had been one shots, yet during the entire run he was moaning about my gear, and I was paying less and less attention to what I was doing, and more on what he was saying, putting me off.

Second wipe, he leaves in a strop about a 15g repair bill, and whispers me calling me the worst tank on the server!!!.

We went and got another healer from my guild, explained what happened, laughed then proceeded to kill the rest of the instance with Zero issues.

What people don't seem to realise is that you start applying uneccssary pressure and insult's on your tank, then you will start finding that tank not really doing the job as well as they normally would. If that had been a guild run you would genrally get in, dust yourself off and see what went wrong, why this can never happen in a PuG i will never know

cjc813
12-20-2008, 06:26 AM
to be quite honest with you, THIS is the attitude that pisses me off about people in general. I hate to sound like a prick but making blanket statements like that is just plain uncool.

I agree that, at first, everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. And everyone deserves to be treated with the respect of another human being until they show a lack of respect themselves. If you suck at WoW, that's fine. WoW is not always serious business. But if you're a jerk, skilled or not, you need to grow up... regardless of your age.

But let's face it. Blanket statements and stereotypes are thrown around for a reason. Most kids are little jerks who don't know how to properly interact with people. They just are.

Children are younger, (they have less XP IRL) and are generally less intelligent and possess social skills inferior to adults. They haven't spent years interacting with others like adults have. It's no surprise that they perform poorly in such situations.

This a general rule of thumb, and applies to MOST situations. But not all of them. Not all kids are rude, and not all adults know how to treat people.

But the law of averages agrees with the blanket statement.

Most Hunters are problematic. Most children are socially inept. It just happens to be that way most of the time.

That is where being a mature adult comes in. An adult does realize that blanket statements and stereotypes aren't 100%, and with that knowlege they use some kindness or tolerance just in case this person happens to be an exception to a general rule.

I'm just saying that blanket statements and class stereotypes are not harmful... as long as we understand that these things are nothing but blanket statements and stereotypes.

EDIT:
Just wanted to make sure I left at least one more message thanking everyone for listening. It has been nice to vent a little with people who actually know what I'm talking about.

Thank you all for the input!

Sanelora
12-20-2008, 06:40 AM
hes not refering to people he hasn't met yet... if you saw "Mr. pin striped suit" for the 2nd time and the first time he was incompetent and rude would you want to deal with him again?

would you be more likely to deal with person 1 either? - again, context for interaction not a judgement of personality and how you feel about someone. and yes, he is, indirectly refering to people he hasnt met.

@ cjc813 - you do raise a good point but i think that perpetuation of stereotypes is part of the problem. it is possible to influence people by making them think that it is what you expect them to be like. While some kids are, granted, little brats that are inept with their social skills and quite possibly their in-game skill too, it is incorrect to label an entire group of people like that, regardless of what the common issue is. that is like stating that people who believe in the flying spaghetti monster are all idiots because 50%+1 of them are.

Blanket statements and the law of averages are very very inaccurate when it comes to dealing with people in general, personality types and method of interaction. There are too many variables to consider etc.

What you mentioned about jerks needing to grow up regardless of their age, that is so true.

Gradon
12-20-2008, 08:13 AM
I said what I said using the "98%" bit because, generally, 98% of kids these days are clueless, in my opinion. Of course, that doesn't mean that ALL kids are that way, but if you know of some, let me know, I've yet to see it...

And I thought it was clear that my statement came after I had given them a chance, since I can only go off of "LFG (whatever)", "I'll (enter said role)," then the group sets off to do whatever it was, only to find out that in fact (as has been stated before) tank takes too much damage, he needs to suck less, names are tossed around, player hearths, group goes to shit, etc.

And your example of meeting Joe Shmoe and Mr. GQ doesn't work with WoW because I can't hear, see, or smell the person I'm playing with, hopefully (and only hearing counts in this case, Vent, etc.) so I have to go off of what I see typed and their playing ability.

Stearns
12-20-2008, 12:58 PM
abolutely agree with your final bold statment in the OP. That's why I dont have a lot of patience with players who whine about blizzard screwing up their class mechanics, gear, boss encounters or whatever. Because all that whining is entirely outside the context of the game they actually play with real people. If they were in the theortically perfect guild, then some of these fine grained theory discussions might actually mean something.

My advice: find a guild with people you enjoy running with, and keep a friends list of the same. I choose players for 5 mans based upon who I like, not their class or spec, and generally I have a great time running casual 5 mans.

I'm also an adult and I generally stay away from kids in groups that I organize. Nothing wrong with kids: just that I dislike playing with them, becasue I'm an adult and they're a kid - obvious enough right? (there are rare exceptions). I wouldnt expect to have any kind of meaninful interaction with the average teenager I see in the mall, given who I am and my backgroup/experience etc. Why would that be any different in WoW?

hichris
12-22-2008, 09:14 PM
I was once kicked out of a mostly guild group, because we gave our so called tank party lead (blood spec'd DK that did about 500 DPS at 70 in nexus)

Was supposed to be fun, but the guy had to talk big, brag, and it started to drain on the party. I usually deal with situations with a little more tact, but I was on an alt, it was early AM, and was a little tired, just wanted to finish the run with friends. He volunteered to tank... not sure he had ANY tank gear, but he was rather upset with me when I called him out on first, his DPS, and second his inability to tank.

Regardless, he booted me from a group of 3 of my own guildies aside from myself. Fail

jettzypher
12-22-2008, 09:44 PM
i bet he didnt have a group for long after that if it was an all guild run except him.

Jalousie
12-24-2008, 01:29 PM
I can relate to this. I tanked a few times in lower levels just because I rolled a warrior and people asked me to. Unpleasant people made me spec Fury from levels 30 - 70. I only switched back because now I have a semi-regular group I can do the instances with.

On the other hand I want to pick up on the same point that other people have: just because someone's young, doesn't mean they're automatically an idiot, or vice versa. Two years ago I was a teenager. Go figure. Personally, I find the most aggravating groups to tank for are young men my age. Are all men idiots? I'm pretty sure it would cause widespread angst for me to suggest it...

Calintara
12-24-2008, 02:06 PM
What i typically find interesting is the assumption that someone is young when they act like the mage in the story. Was there some point in the run that everyone gave their age? This of course goes back to the stereotype that was previously discussed.

Once i established my guild and procured a vent server I was actually surprised at some of the ages of my guild members. The range is from about 11 years old to around 55ish. Now granted one thing i notice about the younger folks is that their reaction times to the raiding scene tend to be a little slower and not so "street smart", or situationally aware, as their elder counterparts. However, the majority of the "drama" has actually come from the older community.

Maybe vent adds in a different mechanic into the equation. Some of the younger folks seem more respectful whereas some of them feel like it is a free for all b/c they are away from mom and dad. A little discipline for all seems to work wonders and is probably what you required in your group CJ. It is not always what you say but rather how you say it and that is the trap I think that you fell into.

In the situation that you were in i would have merely said ok and then reviewed the battle to identify where the failure was. Communicating with the group and taking control of the situation is a better choice instead of getting into a verbal battle. I actually disagree with both the mage's and your actions as both of them lack a significant maturity level; which by the way is typically the factor in peoples opinions on a player's age.

When he told you his strategy a simple "I will take that into consideration" would have sufficed. Allowing it to degrade further verbally is not the way to go. Now, i am not trying to put you down either but my point of perspective here is that, after i read the story i pegged you and the mage at about the same respective maturity level based off the actions laid out in the story. You may be better off to try to control your hot-head; which i think may be more beneficial to your playing experience. My 2cp on that part.

On a side note, I am not sure if you checked the logs but your hunter may not have been removing the enrage that the dragon does which would have added alot more work to the healer, especially with one DPS dead and the other undergeared. Rather situational but something to think about.

On the heroics thing in general, although i like the fact that the rep is inverted with the new tabard system, i do wish they would put some sort of benchmark back in (used to be revered rep) to allow folks into Heroics. This would force people to know the instances instead of trying the zone for the first time on Heroic. It is frustrating to see tanks and heals work very hard to be able to tank/heal the content yet DPS think they can walk in with a toothpick and destroy the zone. However, that again is in the control of the group leader and group makeup. Its awesome to gear folks up but sometimes they need to walk before they run, if not they trip and take us all down with them.

Dubzil
12-24-2008, 02:33 PM
Verbal battle FTW.. mage doesn't like how you tank it then he can tank it... Tanks way or the highway IMO. If they want to whine about it they can get a different group... this is a heroic instance which you say as it's a hard thing, but it really isn't. There's a lot of room for error in heroics with very minimal penalty. If the mage says his way works but its killing him I'd probably laugh in his face.

OnourisofRavencrest
12-24-2008, 02:39 PM
Verbal battle FTW.. mage doesn't like how you tank it then he can tank it... Tanks way or the highway IMO. If they want to whine about it they can get a different group... this is a heroic instance which you say as it's a hard thing, but it really isn't. There's a lot of room for error in heroics with very minimal penalty. If the mage says his way works but its killing him I'd probably laugh in his face.

I would not suggest any of this. A group is made up of five people, none more important than another.

Dubzil
12-24-2008, 02:44 PM
I would not suggest any of this. A group is made up of five people, none more important than another.


very untrue in many many PUGs. Tank and healer carry the party through heroics normally with 1 maybe 2 if you're lucky DPS that are actually important. A cocky dps that dies on boss fights is not very important.

mavfin
12-24-2008, 03:11 PM
On the 'doing heroics first before normal' issue:

Just require the normal achievement for X instance before allowing a toon to enter the heroic version. (talking 5-mans, not raids, heroic vs normal raids is numbers, not difficulty)

Kaziganthi
12-24-2008, 04:48 PM
Yeah, I was the first tank to hit 80 in my guild so I was tanking all these heroics for the guildies, 6-7 a day. And later on as other guildies hit 80 they'd say oh well you should kill this guy in the group first cause he does "this". But I just link the achievement for me clearing the instance weeks before then say thanks but I've been here a few times. I still make fun of the dps when I tell them "If you see me run behind a wall I'm LOSing them and if you attack them before they get to me you fail".

hypz
01-12-2009, 04:01 AM
I know all about it, like a month ago I was just in a new guild, and we made a guild run to Old kingdom, and we had this childish rogue that seemed to be in an extreme hurry.
I was sick of him already at the start, while the healer was still buffing, and having a mana drink after he was already shouting in caps GOGOGO etc (I hate ppl that do that) and later at some trash I tried to pull a caster back by standing out of his LOS.

While I was standing behind the wall, the mage was dps'ing a random mob (while I've put a skull as first target), and the rogue picked up another mob and starts dps'ing it and he died, and he went all the way crazy like "TANK FFS WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING", and he kept acting like this so I kicked him from the group. Guildy or not, people that act like that can go find another group, I just replace them for someone that can socially interact with others.
So I kicked him, and now he goes shouting in guildchat that I kicked him and that I cant keep aggro. So I told in the guild what happened, and didnt go in discussion with him in guildchat.
Later that day, I made a guild group with some other people from the guild to Azjol Nerub. While we were in the instance, the rogue from Old Kingdom says in guildchat "He how's smuggy (my chars name) tanking?", and a mage from my Azjol nerub group responds like "OMG this guy is shit, he cant keep aggro". So I asked the mage in whisper what his problem was. And it turned out that he ment that he got hit by a skirmisher -_-. Omg, I think we all know that the skirmishers drop their aggro and go for someone else.
So the whole guild thinks I'm shit becouse of a couple of stupid dps'ing kids, if they would just pay attention on whats happening, they could see that I havnt made one mistake or blunder on tanking, they are the ones that are wrong.

Glad I have a nice guild now with nice and mature people. I dont wanna say that kids are bad in wow, I just dont like people that act childish, I've played with plenty of young kids that play really well and are really nice ppl.

cudmaster
01-14-2009, 11:53 AM
jumping is prefered, moving around with her tail slap and cone attacks potentially hitting people is dumb, if all your dps is ranged it probably doesn't matter which one you do, but trying to stay on her shoulder while a tank is moving around randomly is virtually non possible for melee dps.

I was on my alt rogue and a tank ran around the whole time, it was bad, very bad.

I nicely asked him to consider jumping instead after we wiped, and he did and it was good.

however, in genreal I agree, other people suck.

Rasberry1
01-15-2009, 07:51 AM
This is my first post and I hope ya'll can give me some insight.

I just went into Azjol Nerub heroic. Went as a pug (which I typically avoid but when I was solicited he was so nice I couldn't say no). Anyhow, got to the first boss - marked the skrimishers skull, readychecked, and pulled.

Immediately the hunter started attacking X, and the DK laid down D&D. (I died a little inside). I pulled everything back with a quick challenging shock, tc, shockwave and starting pwning face. Well - the skrimisher dropped aggro (happens) and went after the healer ... who started running away from me - sigh. Then the DK starts spitting out "taunt! taunt!" Like I'm sitting on my hands or something. Needless to say the healer's run to freedom meant I couldn't get to him in time and he died and we wiped. I mean - how hard is it to run toward the tank?

All of this I can typically take without complaint but the DK (Manslaughter, Nazgrel) immediately lauched into a tirade about what a crappy tank I am and how I don't know what I'm doing.

I mean correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it best to wait on D&D until after the tank has aggro? Especially on adds with shaky aggro tables?

Sunderhorn
01-20-2009, 05:25 AM
Don't worry about slap-happy aoe if you're pugging, dnd is nothing to be afraid of if he's not in frost presence, and it makes mobs more likely to stick on the melee if things go wrong.

In that situation I would simply explain why the skirmishers need to die first and ask everyone to focus fire the skull. I would also whisper the healer to stay put next time and focus on himself [if he runs towards you he'll probably die...he stands a chance if he spams on himself].

I would then probably throw out tips/commands before key events or pulls since it sounds like it might have been the first heroic run for a few of them.

But yeah, pugging is painful by and large.

Baenhoof
01-29-2009, 03:05 AM
I don't want to sound like a jerk because I can completely identify with all the other pug horror stories in here...
But dude, its a heroic.
Its not super hard, its doesn't require a whole lot of skill, or gear, or anything else. Any moron can get a couple craftables and some 80 quest blues and be heroic geared.

I actually think the mage was justified in feeling threatened- he came into a pug where good tanks are hard to find, thinking if theres just one thing wrong with this group, it'll just be one of 'those' pugs, and he can slouch back in his chair with a frown thinking 'its going to be a long, long night.'
Maybe he didn't know the instance too well- it happens. I cant say I exactly remember how to do, say, anything in Occulus (lol). He probably found you to be irritable and overly defensive, wondering exactly what he did to deserve such a verbal smackdown.

I don't claim to be an excellent tank. We're all learning and struggling through bad groups as best we can. You just have to learn to be patient and not be a douche with people. Being nice, understanding, and politely explaining why or what you're doing can go a long way. Its hard to be mad at someone when they're being ridiculously nice to you.

But seriously, its a video game. I know this is a website dedicated to a video game, and its a game I really love to play, but its still, in the grand scheme of things, a game. Take a step back :)

TiptoesDMF
01-29-2009, 03:43 AM
semi off-topic:

The worst case I see in current content is dpsers with godlike attitude that do 800dps AND think that they are doing extremely well and the group would break down without them. People that boss me and my gf who heals me, sitting right next to me about what we do wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I went UK heroic (first hero as tank) yesterday, with mage (1.7K), me (1K), rogue (1K) and hunter (900dps) and it was smooth run, healer died twice to bombs, mage once because I changed marks of sheeps (dragon and two archers pull) and he cced "new skull". Hunter did not turned growl off although asked for (no issue) and we cleared it in convenient 45 minutes. Very nice pug, things kept on dying, people were nice to get along with. So I don't mind people with at least around 1K dps, as long as they can act and play nice.

Gutt
01-29-2009, 04:00 AM
So I pugged...

Tha's where you went wrong ;)

wolvie
01-29-2009, 08:34 AM
i can totally understand u.. in fact i had a very similar problem, but with a holy pally who just started calling every dps " noob" till everybody starts leaving the group, including myself.. fun fact: the guys kept whispering me for like a week asking for tanks till i got tired and /ignore him..

Zyffyr
01-30-2009, 06:27 AM
jumping is prefered, moving around with her tail slap and cone attacks potentially hitting people is dumb, if all your dps is ranged it probably doesn't matter which one you do, but trying to stay on her shoulder while a tank is moving around randomly is virtually non possible for melee dps.

That all presumes that the tank is stupid. Move does not mean run all over. Quickly tap forward one time, then quickly tap backwards the next time you need to clear it. Repeat as needed. Mob moves one step. Any DPSer getting hit by the tail or cone under those conditions was going to get hit with a jumping tank too.

It makes quite a bit of sense to get used to doing it by the step method instead of the jump method if you play multiple characters... a jump prevents the use of any non-instant ability until you land, which will take longer than the time to take a single step (you are done steping as fast as you lift your finger). Jumping is generally a bad idea for caster types.

cjc813
02-02-2009, 12:29 AM
I don't want to sound like a jerk because I can completely identify with all the other pug horror stories in here...
But dude, its a heroic.
Its not super hard, its doesn't require a whole lot of skill, or gear, or anything else. Any moron can get a couple craftables and some 80 quest blues and be heroic geared.

I actually think the mage was justified in feeling threatened- he came into a pug where good tanks are hard to find, thinking if theres just one thing wrong with this group, it'll just be one of 'those' pugs, and he can slouch back in his chair with a frown thinking 'its going to be a long, long night.'
Maybe he didn't know the instance too well- it happens. I cant say I exactly remember how to do, say, anything in Occulus (lol). He probably found you to be irritable and overly defensive, wondering exactly what he did to deserve such a verbal smackdown.

I don't claim to be an excellent tank. We're all learning and struggling through bad groups as best we can. You just have to learn to be patient and not be a douche with people. Being nice, understanding, and politely explaining why or what you're doing can go a long way. Its hard to be mad at someone when they're being ridiculously nice to you.

But seriously, its a video game. I know this is a website dedicated to a video game, and its a game I really love to play, but its still, in the grand scheme of things, a game. Take a step back :)

You're right and wrong at the same time.

The mage was the one who got the group together. The group was 3 members who knew eachother fairly well with an additional DPS and a healer picked up along the way. We were 3 people who we knew were at least semi-competent and 3 people who took the game fairly seriously. And the mage knew the instance. I must admit in hindsight that the mage knew what he was doing more than I did and his "jump" advice was sound, albeit given with no tact. He told me what to do without regard to how his instruction would be recieved, this pissed me off and the situation deteriorated. The rest is history.

I learned later that his insults were meant to do exactly what they did. He called me a scrub tank because he knew it would irritate me, and he won by that account.

Moral of the story is, in hindsight, that we were both douchebags and were both taking ourselves too seriously. I have members of this forum to thank for that realization.

I'm on sort of a WoW hiatus right now (my computer went "HHHHHNNNNGGGG" and died) but I have to say I don't really wanna tank when/if I return to my server. I'd rather roll a dps and plan on leveling a Hunter I was working on a little.

I like tanking and I like being in charge, but I don't like to be wrong and have a low tolerance for people who are jackasses. I tend to take situations too seriously and act too aggressively towards others. I have the ability and game knowlege to be a good tank, but I think I've been overlooking another requisite... patience and/or tolerance.

This post has proven that when people act in ways like I have that it detracts from the fun of the whole party, and fun is what it's all about.

You (and others) are absolutely right, though, when saying I took the situation far too seriously. It was only after about a month off that I realized I had kinda been sucked in to the game and ended up perpetuating a lot of drama by treating situations as serious business when it's all just a game.

Still miss my WoW though. Wanna get back to selling Eternal Belt Buckles on the AH and leveling some of my alts. I don't miss tanking as much as I miss interaction with the game and its players.

Once I return, I certanly will try and take things a little more lightly. Drama is just retarded. :)

cjc813
02-02-2009, 12:58 AM
Verbal battle FTW.. mage doesn't like how you tank it then he can tank it... Tanks way or the highway IMO. If they want to whine about it they can get a different group... this is a heroic instance which you say as it's a hard thing, but it really isn't. There's a lot of room for error in heroics with very minimal penalty. If the mage says his way works but its killing him I'd probably laugh in his face.

Multiple folks have responded with a statment along the lines of, "Heroics aren't hard..." and I gotta kinda rebutt that a little bit.

No, they're not insanely difficult and with people who know what they're doing they can be done without any trouble. But my assertion in talking about the difficulty of Heroics was not to say, "omg they are so hard!" but was to point out the difference between the way Heroics worked and the way the regular 5-man variants worked.

From a tanking perspective, you and a decent healer CAN (and often will) drag 3 idiot DPS through a normal 5-man, typically with little issue. This is a lot harder to do when you increase the amount of damage done by mobs (in Heroic mode). DPS have to do their job to make the run go smoothly, is all I was saying.

If DPS are undergeared/lazy in Heroics then fights take longer. If fights are longer then the tank takes more damage over time. If the tank takes more damage then the healer burns more mana. But if the healer goes OOM during a fight, who typically gets blamed? The tank. Nevermind how much damage each of the 3 DPS are doing, nevermind the healer's gear, nevermind the tank's gear. Typically, it's just chalked up to a bad tank.

All I was saying is that many DPS need to step up and realize their numbers are more important to the run in Heroics than they were in normal mode. And if your group fails, look at the whole picture (tank's gear, healer's gear and damage meters) before blaming the 'scrub tank.'

But I'm preaching to the choir here, amirite? :)

TiptoesDMF
02-02-2009, 01:13 AM
If DPS are undergeared/lazy in Heroics then fights take longer. If fights are longer then the tank takes more damage over time. If the tank takes more damage then the healer burns more mana. But if the healer goes OOM during a fight, who typically gets blamed? The tank. Nevermind how much damage each of the 3 DPS are doing, nevermind the healer's gear, nevermind the tank's gear. Typically, it's just chalked up to a bad tank.



Got booted twice yesterday from group - first was heroic nexus, the whirlwinding boss. Pulling the group before him (1 priest 2 berserks) and pulling it way back. Fury warrior storms in, stopping the pull. Okay, charge in, SW, TC, tabbing through and backing off. Of course, knockback came. The dps warr went straight into boss, boss and his adds went straight after healer. 4 secs on TC, longer on SW, I challenge-shouted, picked them up, piled them and started to tank.I manouvered them to safe spot (intim shout, WWind). DK and Warrior keep on staying in WW when healer has hands full of healing me and both die. Healer, from reason unknown to me, decides to step into melee range just when he starts WWing. Well, it all ended with wipe.
"WTF??? Noob tank y u pull boss????"
You were removed from party by.....

Second was daily hero (AN), we wiped our way through and everyone bailed out after 2nd wipe on last boss. Got invited to some other guild's run and went okay, can't be that bad. My first mistake was not to inspect the healer (greens/blues). Getting big heals for 6K from the shammy was a bit harsh, thanks for low cd on LS and Shield Wall. What was totaly stupid though, was that everytime we wiped I scrolled through my log - heals came in after 6-8 seconds after pull, sometimes there were 8-10 sec windows when I was healed only by riptide. Can't really live through that. But of course, it was my fault, as I am totaly undergeared for heroics...

I am really tired of this to be honest. I may not be best tank around, but from I've seen I am at least average and getting better as I am dusting my rusty TBC tanking skills. Maybe I am butthurt here, but seems to me that it's always the tank that gets the blame, and if it is healer, he just says it's tank's fault.

Dovienya
02-03-2009, 10:16 AM
I could not agree more. You need at least 25k hp to tank hcs(apparently). Quite funny when they give you a try and you pull it off without wiping. I could probably get the helm from normal oculus but it is impossible to find a group for it.

Immorality
02-04-2009, 01:59 AM
I have to agree with Calintara regarding stereotypical ages. The guild i am in has in my opinion (for what its worth) one of the better resto shaman on my server and is only 14 years of age and acts with more maturity than most, is very organised, good at tactics for all classes when in raids.

The stereotypical comment i believe should be aimed more at the 1% to 2% of players, whatever there age: that are here just for the fun to bait other players into confrontations. Is that any different to real life???

I have over the time i have played tend to only group with someone who is undergeared when in a guild run to help them gear up for the benefit of themselves but ultimately the guild for progression.

I do however try to avoid pugs due to the ingame bickering that sometimes happens and i do genuinley feel bad for some of the people that the rest of the group are bad mouthing due to a mistake etc...Also i find pugs can be expensive on repairs if the rest are inexperienced, I attempt to take a quick look at there gear to try and gauge if they have had some experience in the instances/raids.
No good taking a lvl 80 shaman in HoL if he is still geared in lvl 70 pvp stuff (Still a few out there)

Thats my tuppence worth anyway.

Regards

Niian
02-09-2009, 11:11 PM
I could not agree more. You need at least 25k hp to tank hcs(apparently). Quite funny when they give you a try and you pull it off without wiping. I could probably get the helm from normal oculus but it is impossible to find a group for it.

I was tanking heroics with 18k hp.

Health aside, I stay away from pugs like the plague. Unless it's a 25 vault (which is cake) I will refuse to pug any heroic for the simple fact that every single one I have tanked has sucked.

Normally it's the DPS failing, with one run having all the DPS below mine (prot pally) and the healer above one of the DPS, when he started attacking. Got bored not healing me apparently.

I had one guy once tell me how to tank, all he got in response was "I don't tell you how to heal, don't tell me how to tank". We weren't wiping, wasn't taking excess damage, nothing. He just felt like sharing his amazing repertior of tanking knowledge and trying to force me to conform to it.

Petninja
02-09-2009, 11:57 PM
I called a tank bad the other day, I meant it too. We were in H UP and I was healing for him. In the gauntlet just before the boss. I ended up getting an add on me so I threw a HoT on me and waited for the tank to taunt, but no taunt, and then another add came and another. So after about 30 seconds of tanking 3 mobs as the healer and keeping him and the party up (I'm way over geared for it) one of the dpsers dies to the blue fog or something stupid and the tank leaves the party and shadowmelds or something. I whisper him kinda pissed off, because we hadn't even wiped yet and he's dropping group mid pull? Thanks for not giving us time to at least try to walk them out to reset them or something. He says "There wasn't enough dps. I couldn't hold agro." My jaw dropped. How is it harder to AoE tank with bad dps than with good dps? He answers "The mobs weren't dying fast enough so I couldn't tank them all." What was really happening was he wasn't using TClap properly, I made sure run over to him so he could get them off me. He told me I was a bad pug healer and I had sh*tty gear (I'm wearing a mix of Naxx gear with smatterings of Maly 25 loot, plus two heroic blues I haven't been able to swap out yet). He announces he is the best tank on the server (though has never been past Naxx 10, and that he is going to tell everyone how bad of a healer I am and will go to extra pains to make sure he never runs with me again. It boggles my mind...

Leytur
02-14-2009, 05:17 PM
Isn't 20k low for heroics? :O

Whether I argue with tools like that or not depends on what kind of mood I'm in. Honestly--it's always better to ignore them. Dishonestly--I'll curse em out like a sailor.

Baenhoof
02-15-2009, 12:18 AM
20k is low for heroics, and that tank sounds laughably silly.
Granted the gauntlet is not easy to tank, but 'the best tank on the server' should have little problems ;)

I'm not sure if they fixed this or not but the last time I rank H UP I was tanking it, and what we did was:
Skaadi mounted, flew away, and we booked it as fast as we could to the room at the end of the hallway where they spawn and aoe'd them there. DPS grabbed the javelins or whatever when they could, fired em when needed, I aoe tanked like a mother and we did great.

Leytur
02-16-2009, 04:49 AM
And another thing. . . ;)

If healers go oom on trash pulls it's not because the tank is taking too much damage--it's because DPS isn't killing stuff fast enough.

Skips
02-16-2009, 04:52 AM
Save your javellins! Do the achievement!

Ayne
02-19-2009, 10:05 AM
The the most challenging aspect of WoW is not the content, it's the players.



You are exactly right cjc. Its the players that don't care about anyone but themselves that ruin this game.

Like the priest who rolls on and wins the healing mace from KT on Monday night, and then rolls on and wins an almost identical mace on Tuesday night against the same people that he beat the night before. Item level 213 on both maces.

Like the rogue that rolls on every single piece of leather, including pants that would have been a huge upgrade to one of our Fury Warriors who was still wearing blues in that slot and then proceeds to link them along with three other epic pants in guild chat and ask which ones they should use.

Like the paladin that wins epic dps shoulders from Noth and then rolls against others for t7.5 shoulders two bosses later from Loatheb and wins them and proceeds to make them healing shoulders although stating that he was going to use them for Ret.

The list goes on and on, and although I wasn't directly impacted, it still hurts. When it comes from within your own guild, it hurts even more.

Durandro
02-19-2009, 10:35 AM
Oh, I've been there. Both while tanking and healing. Some people just feel the need to belittle others.

Quite often if a Mage or DPS Warrior (it's 90% going to be either of those) gives me lip about tanking, I'll stop pulling and type "okay, you're main tank now, gogo".

Either they throw a hissy fit, or they shut up and we continue.

Fact is, most of the people who go on about your 'bad tanking' have never done it themselves (or tried and failed). Or they got carried by other players who flattered their egos. I've done so many heroic pugs that it's made me sick of it for a while, and I rarely screw up (and when I do, I say sorry and explain what happened). I don't need to be told to 'learn to play' when I'm already playing a damn sight better then they are.

And as for healing, everyone has to start somewhere. But I don't apprieciate it when all the blame gets dumped on me when the tank can't hold aggro on the adds on the first boss in Utgarde Keep, and I get attacked so much that I can't heal properly. I mean that's just poor. After they started having a go at me I just said 'fine, go get a better healer' and hearthed out. One obviously whispered me and claimed 'my boomkin could heal better then you.'

Well whoop de do. Good for you, go relog then. But I won't hang around and get insulted for something that wasn't my fault.

kolben
02-19-2009, 11:46 AM
A lot of the people who play this game are the hyper-sensitive emo type. I'm a pretty firm believer that most of the problems in pickup groups are caused by the players. Tanks are pretty guilty of going into a group and trying to fix the way everyone plays. If you are having bad groups, maybe look at the way you treat people, how you talk to people, and what kind of undeserved ego your projecting onto people who don't have any reason to assume you know jack.

Frankly, my pickup groups are mostly great. I treat people like they know what they are doing, and give them the benefit of the doubt. Most of the time that pays off with a smooth run and people who want to run with me again.

Just a thought.

Leytur
02-21-2009, 05:26 AM
Fact is, most of the people who go on about your 'bad tanking' have never done it themselves (or tried and failed).

Actually a good deal of them are competent tanks that know when someone is failing. So they call them out on it. I do this often when I'm on my hunter. 5 seconds into a pull i should be able to weave in a multi-shot without getting aggro from secondary targets. So if it happens more than once I'll say something. Usually it's a simple "we could use a bit more thunderclap" to which I usually get "i AM thunderclapping" to which I reply "ok cool" even though I know they aren't. BUT usually they think "oh crap I've forgotten to thunderclap" and they start doing it and everything is peachy.

Durandro
02-21-2009, 05:32 PM
Most people aren't that polite though. And don't give constructive comments. They just say 'you suck' and then give you hell for 'not knowing your class'. While utterly failing themselves.

But hey, I don't get it too often. Only from the real jerks.

Machus
02-25-2009, 02:32 AM
I'm a fairly social player and prefer to PuG with new people each evening than to be in a big guild and go with the same people all the time. That includes as a tank. The tips I can give for PuGing are these:

Join last, so you can see who is on the team (avoid that wandlock you grouped with earlier!). Never form as a tank!
Always speak with the people in the group. Refuse all random invites, or invites that aren't complete phrases. get a feel for the group from the chat.
Put all the great healers, but also some great DPSers, you know on your friends list. It can be surprisingly hard to find decent DPS at times.

Sometimes the PuGs suck, and mainly it's the DPS that sucks. Thats' nothing new. Even in progression raiding it's the DPS that suck, if anyone sucks. As a tank I find this tedious, and as a mage I find it thankless (I have fairly good DPS, still in my mostly BC gear, and end up doing two people's share). But sometimes you get an ace group or a really superb player in green gear and that is the reward of the whole meeting new people experience.

Baenhoof
02-25-2009, 04:44 AM
I did a bunch of heroics with the same group of people yesterday night and when I recruited the healer, he was a resto shammy I'd never seen before, but in a well-known guild. When we summoned him into the Nexus, I laughed because he was wearing the heirloom shaman shoulders. Oh lawdy, I thought, its gonna be a fun night.
Turns out hes one of the best damn healers I've ever had. And he was in greens.
So inspecting people isnt always a good way to see if they're worth your time.


Join last, so you can see who is on the team (avoid that wandlock you grouped with earlier!). Never form as a tank!

I disagree! I mean, okay, if I'm getting whispered by a random guy I don't know, I'll probably ask who else is in the party to see if there are any worthwhile players in there, but thats it.
I actually PREFER to make my own groups as a tank because then I get to hand-pick who comes with me. Oftentimes its a guildie who needs a specific drop out of an instance, like say UK for the Staggering Legplates. I'll make sure no other plate dps comes so he has no competition for the legs in case they drop. And I can also make sure no known problem dpsers come along :)