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Turelliax
12-16-2008, 03:52 PM
ok so we completed our first week in Naxx before reset this morning. We were only able to go two nights (saturday and last night). We conquered Spider Wing (albeit with some low DPS on Grand Widow which resulted in many wipes with not killing the adds on time).

We are very melee heavy at the moment. but saturday we only had our DK doing over 2k DPS. so we made sure to point out that everyone needs to be aiming atleast for that 2k number. Our DPs did improve some but they have a few stragglers.

Last night we attempted to conquer the Plague Wing. We one shotted Noth (even though we had him at like 1% before he teleported and had to wait through that whole stage to finish him off).

when we moved onto Haigen the unclean we knew it wouldn't be pretty. My Off tank has been excellent with helping me explain fights none in our guild have seen before. But we knew the Dancing woudl cause some issues. After the first wipe our Priest said she "can't do it".

So we tried two or three more times and still couldn't do it.. the last 2 times we ended up having everyon live through phase 2 except our healers (all three of them died).

My issue and concern is... the one healer seemed very down on herself that she could never do this. She cannot dance. Even though we explained to her. when she gets it down she will laugh at herself for thinking its hard.

As a Raid LEader (and a friend) how do i tell her she gave up to easily? I posted some videos i found on our guild website that might help.. but if she really feels she cannot do an encounter and doesn't seem to put her best foot forward in it is there anything i can even do?

orcstar
12-16-2008, 06:21 PM
If at least a healer and the tank are alive, if both that healer and the tank can dance you can stretch the fight pretty long. I did that when we were there 25 men. On the first attempt, a lot of people died before p2 and even more in p2. Luckily we had healers alive and the tank. I stretched and stretched the fight and refused to call a wipe even though I knew that try we weren't going to kill him.

After a lot more dancing with a lot of raidmembers lying dead on the floor watching, I think they must have noticed it isn't hard because we killed him thereafter with only 2 people dead. It can be really frustrating for the dead people, but I meant it to be frustrating for them and it worked. Don't call the wipe too soon, so the people alive get more practice and the dead people see that it isn't that hard at all.

Oh yeah, and forbid your healers to heal in p2. Just run.

Turelliax
12-16-2008, 10:23 PM
We are going back in tomorrow and as much as the guild wants to go back into spider wing and clear it again.. I kinda wanna go into plague wing first and get past him.


Next time we dance with haigen i will tell the healers not to heal in Phase 2.

Shortypop
12-17-2008, 02:00 AM
A couple of possible things to mention

- Dont go too far into the "end zones"
- You mostly want to be closish to the front platform so you have time to make up ground when you need to
- I find it easier to be a little by myself, otherwise I get lost in the crowd.
- setting scroll out maximum to higher than default can really help, especialy at the start cos it means you cant miss it starting.
- strafing I find very useful rather than riunning straight, allows me to see all fires appearing on my screen.

For the healer having problems
- try SS her, which she uses after first dance phase if she dies, so she gets more time to practice
- whats her latency and graphic setting at?
- definitely dont heal or anything else, she can HoT herself before the phase starts so she might survive the odd one though
- kinda weird one that I dont know if it will help, get her to (not heal if the other healers can cope) and dance with the melee throughout the other phase, specifically not "following" them but to get used to where the dividers are, after a while if she can predict where she should be it might make the faster running easier? No idea if this will help it just popped into my head.
- if you think she might react defensively to having herself singled out you, you could always get a nice ranged dps'er to run with them in P1 as well, tbh even if he ends P1 at 100% hp that's not really the point. I'm not convinced that the slow dance is a good practice for the fast one but I know whenever we've done it we've lost more ranged/healers than melee'ers.

Fayre
12-17-2008, 07:07 AM
I think the key thing with an underconfident raid member is to keep positive. In her head she's thinking 'I can't do this, I can't do this' and if there's any hint of 'sigh, she's died again' or 'you lot are useless, get it together' from the raid leader, that's going to turn to 'I definitely can't do this, I'm useless'.

Put a raid mark on a confident raid member and tell her not to worry about everyone else, just to follow the mark and stop where he stops, to forget healing and everything else, just move.

And praise her (okay, praise the raid!) when she does get across the room and back the first time.

Positive reinforcement will help break past the 'this is impossible' barrier.

I would say that you probably should take a break from the boss and come back next week. Do something else. If you go straight back into wiping on Heigan, it's going to drive morale down further. If you don't fancy the Spider wing, try Razuvious or something instead.

Turelliax
12-17-2008, 09:13 AM
after talking with my other tank.... we decided when we go back into naxx tonight we are going to conquer spider wing again. and maybe get noth down tonight too if we have time.

One thing i have been really good about is praising my guys... even though we wiped for a while on grand widow before we finished that wing on saturday i told them "Aeesome job guys we stuck through it and proved we can do it.. out dps was a litttle low so lets aim for 2k dps atleast next raid".


I will try giving her some of those pointers and see if it can help.. i knwo the pally offered to DI the healer and have him soulstoned... but with three druids maybe a druid rez would be better? (one healer, our boomchicken finally hit 80 and a druid tank).

loquatious
12-17-2008, 10:18 AM
I notice that melee has a LOT less trouble with the dance than ranged. MY suggestion is that she move with the melee for all of phase 1 - that will teach her in real time where the safe spots are , then in phase 2 it should be easier at full speed. Repeat until she gets it.

If she really cant do it - then find a new healer.

Porcini
12-17-2008, 03:03 PM
My wife dies on Heigen every time we do it - it's pretty funny actually, and everyone just expects her to get splattered. It's such an easy fight though, that even if you lose half your raid, you can still get it down.

The only thing I can suggest is, put raid marks on people that are good at the dance, and tell her to follow them closely. Make sure that she stays a little bit ahead of them to account for latency. She'll get it with a bit of practice. My wife is one of the best healers in our guild, but she struggles with mobility fights. If she's a good healer, she should know that she's still valued, even is she is struggling to 'dance' :)

orcstar
12-17-2008, 05:57 PM
Melee don't die in p2 because they can't do anything but walking in p2. That and they got the practice of doing the dance slowly while dps-ing in p1.

There is no need for ranged to take risks and dps in p2, while it can be done and in the end your pro players should it is not needed to succesfully get that boss down.

Maybe having one ore two of the healer not on the platform but crowded with the melee on p1 migt help. Let's them learn the dance in the slow version first. Just tell em that running is more important then finishing a cast.

minrog
12-18-2008, 08:21 AM
We had our share of troubles on the fight but we managed to get it down after 4 pulls.

Something that might help is to give them more detail and visual indicators of where to go. The analogy I used was that you were trying to stay inside the big flashlight beam of safety as it swings back and forth. Another thing I showed them was you can locate the safe spots by where the flashlight beam lines up against the corners of the platform.

Some people play by feel and others like to have visual references to work off of. I'm one of the latter usually and the aforementioned details are what made the encounter doable without mistakes.

Sangi
12-18-2008, 09:56 AM
I am going to be dropping flares in the safe zones while I tank tonite. This way people have a visual reference on where to go. I will let you know how this goes.

Optimoos
12-18-2008, 10:08 AM
I would caution against using "follow the marked player" as a tactic for p2. In general the people who have difficulty with this phase are slow on the uptake to get moving, and when you factor in lag and player skill, by the time they start moving to follow that star they are likely getting owned by the slime.

I think the most reasonable suggestion in this thread has been have her dance in P1 to learn the zones. The fight is not particularly difficult in terms of healing requirements, your other two healers should be able to keep up while she concentrates on dancing (and as she grows more comfortable, starts tossing hots and fast heals).

All of that being said, some people are simply bad at situational awareness and reacting quickly, this fight is one where they will stand out if they can't figure it out.

Theomach
12-18-2008, 10:39 AM
This may be a stupid question, but I never did Naxx before, and I probably won't be now, so I don't know what actually happens. But why do you have to do this dance at all? What happens if someone doesn't? Or if they don't follow the pattern correctly? Ciderhelm's video didn't really explain the concept behind it, and I haven't been able to find anything else that tells the story.

Also, keep in mind there are some people who just aren't able to do this kind of thing - their brains just aren't wired correctly. I can't dance to save my life. But I can pick up a musical instrument and play it with just a short amount of practice, and I can do other things many people can't as well. It may just be that this person's brain won't work the way it needs to for this. I know I'd probably never be able to get this down and do whatever role I'm supposed to be doing in the fight as well.

Alent
12-18-2008, 04:14 PM
calling this a "dance" is a popular misnomer. It has more in common with platformer bosses than it does dancing. you just move from safe spot to safe spot. imagine any of the platformers/sidescrollers with near full screen laser bosses. :)

Gretchin
12-19-2008, 12:49 AM
Tell her to aim for where the green stuff popped up, run there and wait for next green stuff. And only instant heals. Keep it as simple as that and it should work - just tell her it's not that hard to do, she just needs to practise like everybody else.

Cn0
12-19-2008, 01:46 AM
Just asking, you mentioned telling healers not healing in p2? If ranged are having trouble with the running, they should be focusing on that at all times. Im just wondering if she gets confused because she tries to save everyone else who messes it up.

We used to mark myself so that people could see where to go, cause I never get hit (hells yea), but its so unreliable, so we gave it up.

If she really can't do it, she is a pretty bad player tbh, so you have a problem if she doesn't get it at the 5th time.

Lizana
12-19-2008, 12:06 PM
This may be a stupid question, but I never did Naxx before, and I probably won't be now, so I don't know what actually happens. But why do you have to do this dance at all? What happens if someone doesn't? Or if they don't follow the pattern correctly?

If you dont dance you get hit by the slime, if you get hit by the slime you take 10-25k dammage. You take 10-25k at a time where healers cannot throw big heals more than once, you will die.

Genova
12-23-2008, 07:35 PM
The way we do this for newcomers is have the shammie (I pray you have one in your group) Drop his totems at each safe spot. This is good for two easons

1. Lets you see safe spots easily, flares are a bad idea because you can run out, or they can go out if you wipe.(Happened)
2. Shammy will be in range of at least 3 of his totems at all times in case they run out too far, which I dont think is ever an issue.. but hey, it doesnt hurt to be safe right.

As said, marking someone is a great idea, also a lot of people think they are running too fast, I notice that Im usually the first person in the group, yet on other peoples screens, im more to the middle. You have to take into account server/client lag and such. Basically once you start running, dont stop until you get to the other side, but dont run too far ahead.

My $.02

Elyvern
12-23-2008, 09:09 PM
Like the last poster said, we use totems to mark the spots, flares are good as well. And people have a tendency to get to the ends of the corners, which is a bad idea as you usually need to immediately turn around and run the other direction to avoid the new waves.

Another thing I recommend is if your dps is good enough, get the rest of your raid to stack as much hp as possible. Healers and squishy classes have less leeway from getting hit by the waves. Even my dps gear (21k hp), I can eat 1 wave, pop a HS/pot and survive with a HoT ticking on me. I'd recommend 18-19k hp buffed if they can handle that. That will let them survive the initial burst and give healers more time to top them up.

And lastly, I'd also like to add that the first time I did Thaddius, I kept dying to charges because I'm directionally dyslexic (I take forever to read maps and figure out directions). I felt really bad as we spent 1 hour wiping on an otherwise easy fight. On our last few attempts, I ran towards the middle of the platform before Thaddius at the start of phase 2. On each sides of my screen, I stuck post-ids written + and - in bold marker pen to give me my first cue of which side I should be standing. After that, it was just a matter of seeing if my debuff changes at each polarity shift, and if it does, run to the other side in the direction of my right hand. Didn't die once to charges that entire night. I'm sure once I get the hang of it, I can remove those post-ids. This doesn't mean I'm a bad player, it just means that for some particular fights, I have to work harder than others. That seems to be the same thing for your guildie as well.

Kedearian
12-23-2008, 11:43 PM
I think the point of the post was "how do i deal with a raider that gives up on a fight". The answer to this, kick them from the raid. It's harsh, it's mean, it wont win you friends. But if your going for progression the best thing you can do if someone whines to much about wiping or cant figure out a boss fight is to kick them from the raid and get someone else. If they want to raid they will figure it out the next week. If they can't then you may want to look else where because nothing in naxx is difficult. Honestly the plague wing is a gimmie wing. Learn the gimmicks and get your free loot. Heigan has got to be one of the weakest bosses i've ever downed.

Ked

Omok
12-23-2008, 11:55 PM
I've used flares to mark the borders between safe zones, and it is very effective for teaching new people. If she still can't do it, don't take her.

Makenshi
12-30-2008, 08:11 AM
I'll have to agree with the last 2 posters, if you dont have the attitude nor the skill then that person hasn't got anything to do in any raid.

Shadevarr
12-30-2008, 11:59 AM
I really like the having ranged run with melee to learn. This boss is very easy (we 7 manned it on the 25man since that many raiders died on the 1st dance phase and still 1 shotted him) so the lack of initial DPS will be made up by survivability and improved morale is definitely worth it imho.

Xav
12-30-2008, 12:02 PM
Make sure noone is still turning with the keyboard. Bingo, noone will die!

Bkiddo
01-04-2009, 03:01 PM
Quote:
Tell her to aim for where the green stuff popped up, run there and wait for next green stuff. And only instant heals. Keep it as simple as that and it should work - just tell her it's not that hard to do, she just needs to practise like everybody else.
- 100% correct

Following people during the dance can be a killer esp if you have a lag.
We needed to do the dance A LOT to get every through but once learnt you will find it much easier next time.

Makenshi
01-04-2009, 07:10 PM
Well you could just cheat, There's a spot in quarter 4 where you can stand where you don't take damage, just make everyone except ranged stand there.

When phase 2 starts just make sure the ranged run to where the melee are and make everyone stand untop of eachother. Aslong as people cleanse it's the easiest thing in the world :)

Velendra
01-04-2009, 07:28 PM
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/d/d5/Safe_spot.jpg
Success!
Have the tank keep Heigan on the platform and then when phase 2 comes have everyone run to the corner (must be right up against it; as in you cannot even be an inch out) and have someone cleanse the fever.

macfeagle
01-06-2009, 05:45 AM
I notice that melee has a LOT less trouble with the dance than ranged. MY suggestion is that she move with the melee for all of phase 1 - that will teach her in real time where the safe spots are , then in phase 2 it should be easier at full speed. Repeat until she gets it.

If she really cant do it - then find a new healer.
QFT. I like this advice.

This content is new to almost everyone and people learn at different rates and via different mechanisms. It may work in some raids to be short with people and denigrate them and pre-announce that anyone who messes up is a loser, but fact is we all make mistakes on simple stuff. I have to believe that if I am gentle with people when they have to do things outside their comfort zone, they will be more likely to stay with my raid when they figure it out. And if they don't, that is still how I roll because that is how I think people should treat other people.

When I do Heigan I don't look where other people are going, I look where the last wave was, and go there. It works for me, but then again I get twice as much practice as any ranged, since I am melee, and when I mess up a little I don't die, since I have well over 30k health and people tend to heal me when I take damage anyway, since I am the tank.

macfeagle
01-06-2009, 05:53 AM
And lastly, I'd also like to add that the first time I did Thaddius, I kept dying to charges because I'm directionally dyslexic (I take forever to read maps and figure out directions). I felt really bad as we spent 1 hour wiping on an otherwise easy fight. On our last few attempts, I ran towards the middle of the platform before Thaddius at the start of phase 2. On each sides of my screen, I stuck post-ids written + and - in bold marker pen to give me my first cue of which side I should be standing. After that, it was just a matter of seeing if my debuff changes at each polarity shift, and if it does, run to the other side in the direction of my right hand. Didn't die once to charges that entire night. I'm sure once I get the hang of it, I can remove those post-ids. This doesn't mean I'm a bad player, it just means that for some particular fights, I have to work harder than others. That seems to be the same thing for your guildie as well.
I'm not directionally dyslexic, but I find that in the heat of the moment I forget, even if I've done it before.

So before this fight, I say, "Get a pen and write a '+' on your left hand." Then I get a pen and write a '+' on my left hand. People don't take me seriously, but it works, and would work for them too if they did it. It's amazing how often I'll listen to a raid leader explain what side to be on, and then right before we go, someone asks which side they should be on, and the raid leader has to stop and think about it before replying.

iconia
01-09-2009, 04:36 PM
If they nerf Velendras (check 3 posts up) safe spot sometime in future, i will have to do the advice i seen in some of the other posts here.

Get a marker och some kind, like flares are good (i think, never used them)

Get EACH AND EVERY PLAYER to do this by themselves.. NEVER follow another player. Check where the last green thing-border was, and run there. Only run to next border and just alittle bit further. Then wait (oka, wait here doesnt mean sit down and drink. the next pop will come real soon and sometimes you dont have time to do any waiting at all) for next Green thing-pop and run to next border. At ends only run to border and maybe a yard more or so. Dont run to close to the boss, if you are far enough out you can just run all the time and dont needs to do any microstops.

We did it like this, and made it without any problems really. Some players might get hit, but let someone throw some instanst while running, and they should get their hp up soon again.

Anyways REPEAT: Each and everyone is by themselves in this phase. And wait means to check for next green pop =)

My 4 cents of thoughts.

Millet
01-09-2009, 06:59 PM
Me myself introduced 1 spot tactics to the raid on the first night in plague quarter, saying that it is just for this once.
However on a second run, some poeple questioned: if we did something that works for us, why wipe again? I simply swung my right paw, roared and everyone put their comfortable shoes for dancing. As I expected on first try me, offtank and 1 healer left alive on 80% or so... then we kept on killing him to just under 50% (took a while, but it was a lesson of boredom for them as they had to watch us dance! :D) I did manage to BR one of the dps, but unfortunatelly he didn't count well enough before ressurecting... suiside-repeat.
One guildie was especially against working new tactics and wanted fight just to be done, but on second try he survived to the very end (mind he was the only one of all of them who died on first try) and after the try he was soo exited he said it was the best fight ever!
This enspired rest of raid, and next time there will be no alcohol to keep us in shape untill we get him down!!
It was a fun end to the night.

So, basically what I wanted to say is: even if she doesn't get the fight, beeing frustrated doesn't bring anything and good relations in guild are essential in my opinion. As someone dead in this encounter doesn't stop you from progressing there is no point to make someone redundant from raids - the dance steps will come clear to her eventually.

Ohnoto
01-13-2009, 07:29 AM
What we do on Heigan is this...

If its a players first time, we tell them to just watch where the safe spots are and call out 1, 2, 3, 4, 3, etc on vent so that they associate with it. New ranged healers should just be casting heals on the tank while watching where he is. Ranged casters should just be mainly using their highest DPS attack while watching, and melee should know what to do, but if they are having trouble, stand on the platform during Phase 1.

We keep our main tank marked throughout the whole fight. and have everyone stack on him for phase 2.

Our healers DO NOT cast any heals at all, instant heals can be if they are comfortable and can keep moving, but cast heals will slow them down enough to kill them.

I agree with Kedearian, though. The attitude of "I can't do this" is not good to have in raids as it will only pull down the whole raid.

As long as a healer and tank are alive it can be done. This has happened to us, where we had our tank, healer, and me as DPS still alive at one point and we got him down to about 1% from about 40%. Took about 10-12 minutes from this point, but then our tank loss concentration and died at 1%. Either way, just saying, it can be done.

When my guild first went in there we didn't make it through Phase 2 until after 2 tries cause we had to get used to the increased speed. Overall, it took us 7 tries to do Heigan, but then we 2 shot Loatheb giving us a T7 shoulder piece.

Don't always look at the now, but also look at what can be gained by getting past it as some incentive. For many, Loatheb is considered easier than Heigan.

Realtank
01-18-2009, 03:25 PM
ok i know this thread was about motivating a very down on themselves raider and ti turned into a heigan discussion. well here is my question why dont more peopledo the cheat? stand in the corner tank on platform and do him that way. i know people saying man that is cheating lamo yada yada yada but seriously as long as people know the dancing why not do it this easy way?

Lizana
01-18-2009, 04:42 PM
ok i know this thread was about motivating a very down on themselves raider and ti turned into a heigan discussion. well here is my question why dont more peopledo the cheat? stand in the corner tank on platform and do him that way. i know people saying man that is cheating lamo yada yada yada but seriously as long as people know the dancing why not do it this easy way?

Why do people make food at home when they can go to mcdonalds and pick up premade food there? Why do people go raid and possibly die when their char is nice and alive sitting in down? Why do people Climb mountains? Why does it hurt when i do this? why Does the why why why of the Why?

You will learn its best never to ask why... I make my raiders dance because i i like to make them have a higher repair bill to match mine...

Makenshi
01-19-2009, 06:29 AM
Why do people make food at home when they can go to mcdonalds and pick up premade food there? Why do people go raid and possibly die when their char is nice and alive sitting in down? Why do people Climb mountains? Why does it hurt when i do this? why Does the why why why of the Why?

You will learn its best never to ask why... I make my raiders dance because i i like to make them have a higher repair bill to match mine...

I can understand people who like to do it the 'Hard' way and the way it' supposed to be, bu thank god im not in your guild or has ever been.

I'm MT,RL and GM and i my duty is to make it as easy and a good as run as possible for my guys, even if it means i'd like to dance i won't because there's absolutely no reason to.

Our raids always have a high pace, everyone like it and gotten used to it by now, and if a RL doesn't do whatever he can to make it a smoother run then that IMO is bad.

Lizana
01-20-2009, 02:11 PM
Man... i guess some people really cant figure out sarcasm or jokes online... sorry for the confusion,

Grulgor
01-21-2009, 03:38 AM
We conquered Spider Wing (albeit with some low DPS on Grand Widow which resulted in many wipes with not killing the adds on time).

We are very melee heavy at the moment.

Here's what we do here. Have your OT begin the fight and tank the mobs, MT pulls the boss of the OT and brings her away to the raid.

Mark up all the adds before the fight starts and have an aoe dpser bring em all down to 50%. The OT reduces one of the mobs health (lets say square raid icon) to around 10%, lower of you are comfortable, then starts beating on another mob. OT calls out over vent "square next".

Have a DK death grip the mob and your heavy melee group gets to beat on him with minimum movement. Rinse and repeat.

As to your priest that's struggling, tell them you don't care if you wipe and its more important they learn for the future with them having a key role and all. Repeatedly take the person in and just let them know "we're gonna wipe to perfection" :)

I found it took me about 4/5 times to get the dance right without factoring lag in :P

IKT
01-21-2009, 06:30 AM
If they nerf Velendras (check 3 posts up) safe spot sometime in future, i will have to do the advice i seen in some of the other posts here.

This is heigan, technically they wouldn't be nerfing the spot, they'd be buffing the encounter because they'd be making you... actually do the encounter..

Maybe it's just me but I find the thought of bugging out such an easy encounter quite sad.

It's like standing in a certain spot so that attunmen doesn't charge type stuff.. you should learn to do the dance.. you'll be better off knowing you can move to a certain location at a certain time rather than having heigan 2.0 come out and your whole raid being terrible at it.

Braggha
01-22-2009, 01:46 AM
Hmm, invisible spot is no more! ALL DANCE NAW! MUAHARHARHAR!

Really easy, i never tried to remember safe spots, i just run to where goo just exploded, making sure Heigan far enough from the platform where ranged is.

I noticed tho, that some players have big problems with reaction. Not only dance actually, also with Grobbulus injections, Loken novas, shadow fissures. It takes whole second or two to them to react and run out. Not sure how it can be helped.

Bodasafa
01-26-2009, 09:39 PM
Its already been mentioned I think but really 2 points that have helped our raiders understand this fight better:

1) Pan the camera to max and get a semi birds eye view.

2) Strafe rather than run forwards and turn around. Many times people will turn around at the ends and be waiting for the eruption, but it has already happened.

Sangi
01-27-2009, 08:16 AM
An engineer dropping smoke bombs with the safe locations helps a lot too.

Turelliax
01-27-2009, 08:22 AM
why Does the why why why of the Why?.

ROFL i just realzied people were still responding to this. But i am so stealing that for my sig Liz.



Anywho since then we have had a few roster changes including one who encouraged the ranting leave our guild and continue her "Why are we doing this fight if we continue to wipe" questions to her new guild.

the healer i have allowed to go spec shadow.. she isn't awesome at it yet but atleast if she dies or cant do an encounter it isn't as detrimental to the guild.

Jonamar
01-29-2009, 08:32 AM
Glad to see your situation was resolved. Sometimes sadly it takes for a person leaving or to be removed from the guild to make the situation better, but it is what it is.

Also, I for one am extremely happy the 'safe spot' got fixed. I love this fight, I love the 'dance' and it was with extreme pleasure we melee in my guild got to see our lazy ranged have to get up off their arses and do the dance with us! And they still suck at it. Hell we downed him last night on 10 man with zero healers alive lol. I think my comment on vent was something like: 'Healers? Who needs Healers?" ;)

BTW, even with the safe spot we never got the 'Safety Dance' either on 25 or 10. WTF people? *sigh*

Another of my vent comments was 'Well you all obviously fail at cheating, so how about we all do it the normal way?" Ah yes my guild loves me!