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Saitoh
12-12-2008, 10:02 PM
Greetings,

I frequent the forums of TankSpot and I really enjoy the atmosphere here. Everyone is very helpful and knowledgeable.

The Story

I am GM of a guild I created with friends. We ventured into Naxxrammas this evening and cleared pretty much all of the content inside without much issue. And we have a issue with itemization of armor; such as, Balance Druids rolling on Cloth gear because it apparently yields higher DPS.

We do not do DKP - and generally just let people roll need for 'main specs.' But with the issue of Leather rolling on Cloth, or Mail on Leather/Cloth.

How should I handle this issue? it has created some pretty heated debates, I would really appreciate any advice at all.

Thanks,

Saitoh

KingAttila
12-13-2008, 06:17 AM
They way we do it, and the way it should be done is cloth goes to cloth, leather goes to leather, and mail goes to mail, unless no clothie wants it then leather/mail can roll, and same for leather/mail. The issue is say a nice cloth helm drops, and a shaman wins it but then on the next boss a mail helm drops the clothie cant even roll on it so therefore it is completely unfair that mail/leather is allowed to roll on leather/cloth unless no one needs it. Before your next raid just state from now on cloth to cloth leather to leather and mail to mail unless no-one else wants it.

Warwench
12-13-2008, 06:34 AM
Main > alt
Main Spec > off spec
Highest Armor type > down ranking armor
Then we get into specific stat types for diff classes.

I dont raid for loot and i dont raid with people who raid for loot so generaly our raid narrows it down to which 1 or 2 people benefit the most from the gear.

Thats how i roll.

orcstar
12-15-2008, 06:47 PM
They way we do it, and the way it should be done is cloth goes to cloth, leather goes to leather, and mail goes to mail.......
"The way it should be done........"
That implies little room for interpretation. You guessed it: I disagree.
We had a bit of drama over that a long while ago while we had Karazhan on farm for some time, no planned raids on Kara and were just progressing 25 mens.

On Nightbane the leather dps chest dropped and the enhancement shaman present (was with us from the very first kill on Attumen) needed the leather chest over a rogue (who had been in guild just short of two months).

The shaman got flamed pretty hard, especially by other rogues over this. I was shaman classleader and healer at the time but hadn't spent much time going over enhancement loot.

Well it turned out that the shaman had already passed the chest to another rogue AND that the leather chest was the best upgrade he could get. Blizzard implemented a mail dps chest with some stupid stats for enhancement shamans but the leather chest was just much better and the best obtainable for him at the moment. And he had been killing Nightbane often already hoping to get that drop. Our best rogue already had that chest so happily passed his spot to another rogue, so this shaman should pass again? NO WAY.

There are much more things to consider before you make a statement like that. You can't seriously ask people to pass on upgrades, especially if it's a best in slot upgrade just because it's a lower armor class? A lot of guilds ask their members to perform as good as possible and now you're saying, "yeah, something might be the best upgrade for you but we're going to gimp your dps". Where does it stop? After how many rogues should that shaman legitimately have gotten his chest? Or should he have never gotten it while there was still (every week new) rogue in the raid?

Ofcourse you have to consider in such that rogues can't wear mail but making such a broad statement can lead to unneccesary drama.

The problem is much too complex too make simple statements.
Imo a priority system should be in place for such best in slot items of a lower armor class. Maybe something like: The two rogues who are always there will get first pick, after that, the shaman who is also always there and after that, that rogue that only shows up once a week on a farm raid.

Dubzil
12-16-2008, 02:07 PM
IMO if it's an upgrade its fair game. I run around everywhere with a resto druid, in Naxx alone, there's 7 spell power leathers, there's 15 spell power cloth pieces.. so why should a resto druid only get to roll on half of what any cloth wearing caster gets to roll on?

All you have to do is implement a 1 epic rule and if someone wants 1 piece in particular, they can give other pieces to other people and then they will have their choice if their upgrade drops no matter if its lower armor class or not. A leather wearer is not going to take a cloth piece as often if its possibly the only piece of gear they get out of the raid.

If an instance is on farm status, people probably know exactly what they want, let a shaman have leather if its all they are in the raid for. Rolls are random, makes it completely fair however you look at it.

Cn0
12-19-2008, 01:52 AM
The way I do it is cloth goes to clothies, leather goes to rogues/druids and mail goes to hunters. We do this until we feel we have our progress raids. When farming starts, its pretty much fair game.

Wasshoi
12-19-2008, 04:48 AM
On one side its not fair for the lower armor class to get shafted by the needs and wants of the upper armor class'. But the upper armor classes' also have right to the loot.... quite a mess there. Maybe you should try the middle ground if you're eager to please both sides.... Something like a weighted roll(or DKP) might do.
If that armor/weapon is not of your armor class/offset or whatever.... deduct 25pts (or some well thought out value) or so out of his/her roll/dkp value. It might be a % cut or might be a fixed amount cut.... you can figure out which one is best.

a) the clothie will have 'priority' over the loot from the handicap on the druid's roll/dkp
b) but doesnt barr the druid from having a go at it at a slightly adjusted 'rate'

Lizana
12-19-2008, 12:01 PM
Heres the line we have from our dkp rules

"
If a player bids on an item of a lower Armor class than what they can wear or if the item is considered a sidegrade by raid leadership, then a dkp penlty tax of 25% of the DKP bid will be applied to the total ammount of dkp subtracted for the item, unless no one else in the raid that the item is of max armor class/upgrade for is bidding the said item."

This gives people the freedom to use their dkp to upgrade as they choose to, but also penalizes them for taking an item over some one that needs it as a max armor class.

kolben
12-19-2008, 12:13 PM
This is sticky, but in general I feel like a pure cloth wearer should get priority on a cloth drop simply because they have no leather/mail/plate options with beneficial stats available.

I don't put 100% stock in Raid Loot: Naxxramas (10 Man) (http://wow-loot.com/raid_naxx10.htm), but it's a decent way to help decide the loot. If you can get your group to agree to go by the suggested class/spec priorities then it could be pretty useful. Problem with someone like an Enchance ment Shaman or Boomkin, or even Fury warrior in my mind is that gear clearly intended for another class is often highly coveted by them (*cough* BC paladins too)

I guess I'm saying a priest shouldn't lose a cloth robe to a boomkin, if they pass it on or have better then that's another thing.

Gehn
12-19-2008, 01:26 PM
If it is an upgrade and there were not rules stated ahead of time, then everything is fair game.

Being ready to raid as a raid leader means not only gear and mindset, but rules and chain of command.

Calintara
12-19-2008, 03:38 PM
Gehn's comments mirror my own. In essence, the rules should be laid out ahead of time. The 1epic rule is kind of sticky in itself because i have led numerous raids where the majority of the gear seems to be weighted to a certain class. Most recently this has been Paladins.

The way I have been slotting my raids recently i am having very little duplication of classes so that seems to help a great deal. On the classes i do have duplicated, one team has three druids, they are all different specs. So even though they share the same armor class the gear type is different. Anything MP5 or heavy spirit is already slotted to healer first pick, similar to how anything defense related is tank first pick. At the end of the day it boils down to a few of the DPS classes that may find better stats on a less armor class piece.

If your in control of the raid just make sure that the loot rules are stated as clearly as possible. If you are not in control of the raid, it is not unreasonable for you to ask loot distribution rules. However, i would recommend that you do this prior to the event if possible. Typically when its raid time, its time to get to work.

My 2cp.

Lizana
12-19-2008, 04:28 PM
Basic thing most people are saying, get a loot system and rules and it answers all questions for you

Moloch
12-23-2008, 09:09 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with common sentiment of mail wearers get mail, leather wearers get leather, etc. There are items that are best in slot that do not follow this rule. And to know this requires the people that are setting up have an intimate knowledge of the gearing paths of all classes and all specs, and who has time for that? If you are going to use a free-roll system, cap it at winning one item per person.

In my experience, a vast majority of people that bitch about other people winning on a "lesser" armor item over them tend to have no idea how the itemization exists for the class that does. It's just easier to complain.

If you're using a DKP system, let DKP rule. If someone is constantly making buys or being an ass by taking things they don't really need; -remove them from your raiding core-. I was in a guild where we had a hunter who had been in the guild since the second day of the server. After he had his maximum upgrade in bow slot he decided he wanted to start collecting raid ranged weapons. So started out-bidding hunters that needed them for their ranged upgrade. I informed him after the first time he did it, that if it happened again I'd zero his DKP out because I had no inclination to bring someone to raids that was going to work against the raid like that. DKP is not an entitlement on either side of the coin.

Trust your guild members to know what they are doing for their gearing until they prove that they do not. If a buy seems questionable, ask the person before awarding the item, "Why do you want this item?" And if necessary get some information about the class mechanics and how the stats of said item affect that class from someone knowledgable about the class that you can trust.

A high spirit cloth item can be just as valuable if not moreso to a resto druid as it can be to a healing priest.

And always remember, the people that talk loudest aren't the only ones with opinions. So be sure to address ANY loot drama with openness and transparency so everyone knows what to understand and expect should it occur to them. The brash will often times shout down the meek, and it is your job as a raid leader or officer to ensure that those people have a voice as well; otherwise you're going to find yourself short members.