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View Full Version : Taking Your Calls! (Our First Call-In Show!)



Ciderhelm
11-08-2008, 04:15 PM
http://media.libsyn.com/media/ciderhelm/Taking_Your_Calls.mp3

0:42 My guild is preparing for Wrath of the Lich King and is preparing it's core raiding roster in advance of leveling. Is this wise?
4:37 Warrior Shield Block -- Use it every time it's up or use it as a mini-Shield Wall?
11:10 As community leaders, are we going to lead the fight for PVP viability?
17:03 Given the new changes, what is the value of Crit Rating on PVP and Tanking Gear?
19:47 Does spell damage mitigation need to be looked at for Paladins? Is Blizzard doing anything to even out magic damage from mobs?
29:06 Why is Righteous Fury such a high Threat modifier given the goal is for tanks to deal more damage?
31:03 Can I ask a question to each of you?
31:15 Lore, what do you think of Paladins lack of a single target Taunt?
36:46 Ciderhelm, what do you think of the mentality that Warriors should be the best Main Tank just because they don't bring utility?
44:51 How do you guys feel about using Strength gems for both AP and SBV and whether it has a place outside of just Threat sets?
46:41 What could be done to make Blessing of Sanctuary a more balanced blessing?
1:00:12 If I sit in a sauna that is heated to 105 degrees celsius and then walk out will my cooldowns be affected?
1:02:18 How much should people be speccing for damage as opposed to damage reduction talents?
1:10:19 Lore, remember that time you didn't get Fallout 3?

Ciderhelm
11-08-2008, 04:17 PM
Please beware that we cut out some of Thursday's calls due to time constraints. They may be reposted at a later date.

Grakkur
11-08-2008, 04:51 PM
Ahahaha I saw that my "question" made it into that podcast somehow, even though I didn't even phone in.

To inform you: I had actually just walked out of the 105 degrees Celsius sauna when I wrote that question. Being Swedish I do have a sauna in the house :D. Also being the random and impulsive person I am, I just felt like throwing out a random question while sitting there with my glistening sweat infused (And naked! NAKED!) body .

Yeah, I was cooking. But it was a good boil!

Cheers for a good and fairly informative podcast.

Ashyn
11-08-2008, 05:35 PM
Dig it!

Ghladum
11-08-2008, 05:35 PM
Dug it!

Ciderhelm
11-08-2008, 05:39 PM
After researching the subject, apparently that *is* a normal -- if a bit high -- temperature for a sauna.

Galushi
11-08-2008, 05:41 PM
I'm glad you guys addressed the whole "waaah how do i replace the warrior MT's" issue. Warriors, such as myself, will continue to be MT's cause we are reliable and skilled players, not just cuz we're warriors. As a non-warrior tank trying to grab that coveted MT spot, you will have to prove your skill and find an open position, not aim to replace someone.

Galushi
11-08-2008, 05:42 PM
given that 100 degree celsius is water boiling, that seems painfully hot for a sauna.

Ashyn
11-08-2008, 05:44 PM
given that 100 degree celsius is water boiling, that seems painfully hot for a sauna.

Get BoSanc b4 you head in, 3% less damage yo!

Galushi
11-08-2008, 06:31 PM
Get BoSanc b4 you head in, 3% less damage yo!

Stop trying to support that its necessary for everything!

Ashyn
11-08-2008, 07:04 PM
lmao, nice dude, nice

Bloodwraith
11-08-2008, 07:37 PM
If I sit in a sauna that is heated to 105 degrees celsius and then walk out will my cooldowns be affected?

I lol'd at this part.

Triank
11-08-2008, 11:08 PM
I had a couple questions and comments I wanted to toss out after listening to the pod cast. First great cast .. was very entertaining to listen to.

First question : How many full time tanks will a 25 man raid be running? With the dual spec option coming out it will make it alot easier for dps warriors/ret pallies and even feral druids to swap specs and tank if they have the gear. So out of the 25 raid spots just off the top how many will be set aside for actual tanks knowing others can fill the role given the situation?

In reguards to blessing of sanctuary would it be to far fetched to bake in BoS type items to our commanding shouts for warriors. Im sure that blizzzard is aware of this and will do something to rectify the tilted scales of this buff.

Arent the glyphs of heroic strike and revenge party a equalizer for not having BoS as far as rage generation goes? I admit I am not to studied up on what glyphs I will most likely be running as MT in the expansion. The 3% reduced dmg though from BoS would be a hard one to make up for unless you have a prot war OT and he puts vigilance on the MT. Food for thought anyway.

pktan
11-09-2008, 12:55 AM
Refering to the first question, in preparation for WOTLK raids encounter, is it appropriate to factor in the number of tanks, healer and dps needed for most encounters?

Can anyone advice whether how many tanks and healers are needed in 10/25 man instance?

Hopefully with this information, we can plan the raid composition in "advance".

Arrivan
11-09-2008, 01:09 AM
Arent the glyphs of heroic strike and revenge party a equalizer for not having BoS as far as rage generation goes? I admit I am not to studied up on what glyphs I will most likely be running as MT in the expansion. The 3% reduced dmg though from BoS would be a hard one to make up for unless you have a prot war OT and he puts vigilance on the MT. Food for thought anyway.

Glyph of Revenge and Glyph of Heroic Strike are not equal to having BoSanc because you can have both at the same time and be even more effective.

However, I've noticed that I'm already often sitting at 100 rage with those glyphs, maybe I just need to use HS a bit more but I have a lot of trouble dumping rage because of Sword and Board and the glyphs.

Edgar
11-09-2008, 01:39 AM
Fun.

Grakkur
11-09-2008, 03:46 AM
After researching the subject, apparently that *is* a normal -- if a bit high -- temperature for a sauna.

Of course it is! Do you think I make things up?! :D

105 degrees Celsius is abit over the top but I wanted to burn good that evening so I just cranked it up. Turns out my butt was actually cooking due to the heated wood I was sitting on and that I couldn't really keep my feet down else they would sting and burn. This was still with a damp towel between my flesh and the wood beneath. Nevertheless I had two successful sessions and after that I was as red as a lobster.

After that session, the following ensued:

My concussion blow stamped out that evening. Shockwave had a heated debate with my warbringer affected charge which was steaming on the matter. Devastate had reached it's boiling point and was stubborn enough to put itself on a new GCD which apparently lasted until my body temperature was normal again. Even revenge demanded that I pay a hot fine of 28 extra rage points! I asked it if it had been having discussions with mortal strike and bloodthirst on the rage costs.

All in all, a successful evening.

Molloy
11-09-2008, 06:11 AM
iTunes?

Alrinea
11-09-2008, 06:15 AM
on the topic of "warriors need more utility for the raid":
currently, warriors are the ego-utility class while the others hand out some utility to the raid.
perhaps this difference in design philosophy needs some fixing?

Ciderhelm
11-09-2008, 06:45 AM
iTunes?
Should be on it's way up.

Molloy
11-09-2008, 06:52 AM
thank you again.

Triank
11-09-2008, 08:26 AM
Refering to the first question, in preparation for WOTLK raids encounter, is it appropriate to factor in the number of tanks, healer and dps needed for most encounters?

Can anyone advice whether how many tanks and healers are needed in 10/25 man instance?

Hopefully with this information, we can plan the raid composition in "advance".

I would think it would be safe to say in 10 mans it will be a 2 tank situation similar to kara and ZA.

However I wasnt able to run 25 man naxx in beta so this is why I wanted to get some feedback. I have read posts and seen comments about running upwards of 4 and 5 tanks in a raid. I would assume that is factoring in dps classes that have the ability to OT trash and what not but not bosses.

I retired from original wow before naxx the first time and wasnt able to do 25 man verison in beta so I thought I would put this out there.

salihe
11-09-2008, 12:11 PM
I gotta say, it was strange actually talking to the two voices I've been listening to on the podcasts for months.

Fun, tho, and thx for including both ?s :D

-Thaddaeus-
11-09-2008, 02:54 PM
In response to the warrior utility question, I've always considered Sundering armor to be one of the best mob debuffs available, and seeming as warriors are the only tank that provides this utility, using other tanks necessitates bringing a DPS warrior/rogue to provide that debuff.

khelben
11-09-2008, 03:31 PM
i can't see the spec?!?!?!!?! :)

j/k

loquatious
11-09-2008, 04:57 PM
I think having all tanks at parity is needed at this point to give druids and pallies a fair chance. BUT in the long run all else being equal MT that is a druid or pally is better than a warrior MT simply because of their greater flexibility and superior buffs / debuffs.

By the next expansion warriors may get the same treatment as rogues - a 1-2% "edge" but for now giving pallies and druids anything less than provable equality would be a big mistake.

Wartank
11-09-2008, 05:55 PM
Im curious about the raid make up for 25 mans myself, mainly number of tanks/ healers needed. Not really knowing what to expect at this stage we have a number of people changing toons, seems Pally Tanks will be mighty popular in our guild and theres simply no way all will get a raid spot. Im currently thinking warrior, pally, druid and DK to make up the core of our tank team, but again im not sure if this is one too few/many. Duel spec will help, but ive no idea when that will come. We arent kicking people or anything, im more worried about how ill find raid spots for them if we OD on a certain class.



Also a point id like to bring up re: Pallys/Warriors discussion and how Pallys could use some better way to draw in casters ect as a warrior can. From my understanding Blizz wanted all tanks capable of being MTs, not that we'll essentially all bring the same thing.

Some classes will find it easier to do a task while others might have to work a little harder. While a warrior doesnt bring fanstastic buffs, battlerez ect we bring some utility with our gag order, TC and various stuns. Cutting further into this will surely bring back up the questions of 'why roll a warrior'. The only real reason atm is we are fun with our couple of extra toys which arent game breaking.

As RL, MT, officer (we dont have a GM), im not worried about warriors being the leetest or anything. Im far more concerned about how my tank team operates and welcome the XPac tank changes and will definitely be allowing my OTs tank bosses more often. The more they do, the more they learn, the less reliant on me the team is, thats a win for the guild.

Im pretty sure it was GC that said something like Hybrid DPS shouldnt be as high as that of a pure DPS. But if the hybrid player is slightly more skilled, or the fight mechanics allow, then it is and should be possible for the hybrid to out DPS them. That logic would seem fair with tanks also.

Now i mean no offense to my hybrid tanking friends, but if we dumped the arms tree and replaced it with that of a Holy priest and gave fury an awesome CC would we be so different? I guess my point here, in short, we lack some of the buffs and general flexibility our hybrid friends have. In return to keep Warriors fun and interesting we get a couple of non game breaking toys. Hopefully we can remain unique like that so theres reason to roll warrior.

Girlie
11-09-2008, 07:27 PM
Cider, would you come sit in a sauna with me and test the c/d theory?

mero12513
11-10-2008, 08:32 AM
Awesome podcast. I really like the call-in format. It kinda helps keep you fools on track :P.

Lore
11-10-2008, 08:56 AM
NOTE: I have, since this was recorded, purchased Fallout. There is no need to fear.

Tenraiel
11-10-2008, 08:57 AM
NOTE: I have, since this was recorded, purchased Fallout. There is no need to fear.

PHEW ... I can rest easy ...

Kazeyonoma
11-10-2008, 09:36 AM
Lol Lore, nice.

Vichnor
11-10-2008, 09:57 AM
Could someone post the spec that Cider pasted to the shoutbox?
I wasn't online for the live show but listened on my Ipod and when I got back got my computer it was off the page. I'd love to compare it to my ideas.

Shivan
11-10-2008, 10:01 AM
Great Podcast as always. On the Pally Blessing debate. Maybe they could somehow work some rage gain into Vigilance(conver the damage reduced on the marked character into rage on the marking warrior). In cases where I am tanking multiple trash mobs or a single tank boss encounter rage is not an issue. However, in situations where there are two warrior tanks fighting for agro rage has been an off and on problem.

veneretio
11-10-2008, 10:38 AM
NOTE: I have, since this was recorded, purchased Fallout. There is no need to fear.
Sheep.

whirlo
11-10-2008, 01:49 PM
can you change the headline to "tanking your calls" instead?

Ciderhelm
11-10-2008, 04:40 PM
can you change the headline to "tanking your calls" instead?
I will use that for the next call-in!

Sanelora
11-10-2008, 05:43 PM
Just a protip about celsius. 50~ is normal for a sauna. 100+ is about normal for a saucepan.

You would probably lose some skin/sanity in there and would probably make the cooldowns of all your moves longer by about however long it takes before the owners find you in there + the length of time you are in hospital. Provided you are required to spirit res.

The saharah is 55-60~ degrees celsius at its hottest. (from what i last heard)

Parah
11-10-2008, 08:39 PM
Since no one has pointed this out yet, 105 degrees Fahrenheit is what is normal for a sauna or a hot tub.

105 degrees celsius is above boiling point, so unless you were for dinner, you wouldnt want to be in anything that temperature.

devil_bane
11-10-2008, 09:17 PM
A few thoughts about Sanctuary...

Pre 3.0 my Holy Pally build had Blessing of Sanctuary on tap. For PVP it was an amazing buff, offering great mitigation against fast-hitting rogues, and for farming/running lowbies for PowerLeveling it was fantastic. I am experimenting with a variant of that build post 3.0, and feel it sacrifices very little.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=503500520201300531005000001403200 520310000000000000000000000000000000000000000

A Holy Pally running this build for a Warrior Tank could well provide the best complementry tools any warrior would wish for. Sanctuary for rage/mitigation, Divine Guardian for AoE situations, and even the 6% +heal from Devotion. That's alot of gain for loss of a small amount of haste, extended judge range, and Beacon.

I am not saying this build is "the best possible" healing build. I *am* saying it is a viable option in some situations. It would solve the "OMG WE MUST HAVE PROT PALLY" mentality quite handily.

Honestly, I am pretty under-whelmed with Beacon of Light in all but the most perfectly "set up" for the effect. IE: R&J in Kara comes to mind as ideal for use of the Beacon. The other 95% of the time it just does not work out so well. In all seriousness, Sanctuary is useful 100% of the time you have a non-Pally tanking, and Beacon is useful in "certain" situations.

It's just something to consider.

Vichnor
11-10-2008, 11:22 PM
Since no one has pointed this out yet, 105 degrees Fahrenheit is what is normal for a sauna or a hot tub.

Err, No.. No self respecting sauna bather would go into something that luke warm. That's barely over body temperature.


105 degrees celsius is above boiling point, so unless you were for dinner, you wouldnt want to be in anything that temperature.

That is correct, but I have myself been in saunas ranging from 150-185F (70-85C).
Having lived the better part of my life in Sweden and fraternized with Finnish people does give you a good insight and experience with the finer (and hotter) points of all things Sauna :)

[Still waiting for someone to post the warrior build Ciderhelm was talking about in the podcast]

Lirk
11-11-2008, 01:10 AM
Great Podcast... I had a lot of fun listening.


Please stop this sauna discussion. I am regularly going into one and I am living in a SI unit system (Germany). Normal is 75 - 95 Degrees Celsius. More is possible! Yes boiling point of water is 100 Deg Celsius, but freezing point is 0 Celsius and I am out in winter without my body water going to ice. It takes time to heat up and you will not be well even some degrees above your normal body temperature. 10 - 15 minutes in above 100 C sauna is no problem if you are used to it. To get your cooldowns back I recommend a ice bath afterwards...

Alrinea
11-11-2008, 01:40 AM
yep. i hope with the CoH/druid thingy cooldown implementation they will tune down the massive aoe dmg they added in BT quite a bit in wotlk. additionally, beacon should be fine in naxx where the fights are designed for multiple tanks without massive dmg to the raid (except for some fights). so bacon of light (as GC tends to call it) should be fine and you wont want to sacrifice it for something that will hopefully be reworked by the time we hit naxx

devil_bane
11-11-2008, 10:48 AM
This is going way way off topic in a tank forum but, hey, why not...

The issue with Beacon is *not* using it, but how it works. If there is a second healer in the raid, using it becomes shaky at best. With a 25 man raid, the odds of it being useful drops tremendously.

I was using a TBC example of when it can be useful, that does not by any means tell you I have not used it in Beta.

The core problem with Beacon is the fact the "Mirror Heal" is based from effective heal only. So the HoT that another healer put on your target gimps your Beacon effect in a huge way.

Therefore, at this stage, Holy seems the "flexible" tree. Prot and Ret will have a hard time even picking up Blessing of Kings. At 70, with a full Beacon Spec, holy has 10 extra points for Kings and Benediction. At level 80, Sanctuary is very easy to pickup and the *ONLY* real loss in the Holy Tree is Beacon. (found here (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sxA0gMzhVuMxRxacbVbu)) The level 80 setup even allows for full JudgePure spec.

So, sure Sanctuary *may* be reworked before Naxx. But unless Beacon is also worked on quite a bit, I stand by my assertion that it is not as useful as Sanctuary in *SOME* cases, and this build may be very viable if you *know* you will have a Warrior tank.

Also, let's not discount the Divine Guardian effect. Beacon lets a Pally "kind of" heal 2 targets in an AoE situation. Divine Guardian helps keep EVERYONE alive in an AoE situation.

Again, I never presented this as a "Perfect" or even "Best" solution. But please don't call it rubbish because I used a TBC example for ease of understanding to non-Beta players, or assume that Sanctuary is the only thing that needs fine tuning. As it stands, Beacon is far less than it should be, and Sanctuary is far more than it should be. That sort of makes it more attractive to not take the under-powered ability and take the overpowered ability. ESPECIALLY when it is an ability that can be such a boon to my tank.

Lore
11-11-2008, 11:13 AM
Every Holy Pally I have talked to is speccing 53/0/18 for the extra 8% crit.

Beacon's not CoH, but it's also not bad. Any time you have 2 tanks taking damage (oh hi 25 man raiding) it's amazing.

Nez
11-11-2008, 11:14 AM
Loved the format.

devil_bane
11-11-2008, 11:58 AM
Every Holy Pally I have talked to is speccing 53/0/18 for the extra 8% crit.

Beacon's not CoH, but it's also not bad. Any time you have 2 tanks taking damage (oh hi 25 man raiding) it's amazing.

I stand corrected. I see the error of my ways and repent totally.

Thank you for your timely wisdom!

Gordonoth
01-28-2009, 06:37 AM
Nice podcast.