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Bloodwraith
11-05-2008, 02:45 PM
This is a list of concerns I've seen expressed on the forums. I'll try to update this with any suggestions. I will add any blue responses if any of the concerns gets one.

Updated: December 12, 2008

Damage Dealing Forums Thread: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [PvP] List of Warrior Concerns (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13392281681&sid=1)

General Concerns


-Piercing Howl should be a baseline ability. Every warrior that wants to PvP will be forced to put at least 11 points in fury to be viable in arenas. It is also required to snare someone immediately when your charge/intercept/intervene overshoots or undershoots.
-Fix Charge/ Intercept so the range won't bug and cause warriors to be out of range. A suggestion for this would be to add a small run speed boost kind of like shadow step has.
-Warriors should have the most effective (in terms of slowing effect) snare in the game because of the large number of GCD's that have to be used to keep this debuff(hamstring) up. Hamstring needs to be reapplied every 2 to 3 GCDís because of short duration and snare reduction. Also no snares should be over 50% in the game.
-Review the stance system for PvP. Itís too outdated and restricting. (Especially berserker stance)
-Intimidating shout should not break immediately on damage. There is really no point in using it if your main target immediately loses the debuff due to a DoT ticking on them.
-Without Weapon Mastery Arms and Protection builds are suffering from both other Warrior disarms and rogues using dismantle.
-Dismantle: We are rendered helpless, not being able to do any weapon damage and not being able to use any of our prime defense abilities aka Shield wall, Shield Reflect and Shield Block. 10 sec is a long time to go without doing damage or defense. Weapon mastery(fury) needs to be made easily available to the arms and protection trees. This mechanic is both a disarm and a shield break rolled into one ability.
-Slam currently is situational at best even with Imp slam.
-Warriors are very healer dependent.
-We donít retain enough rage for stance dancing to feel fluid.
-Many of our abilties come with a downside, which feels unfair given many of these abilties have cooldowns or pay offs that do not feel strong enough to need a downside.
-Many Warriors feel there are parity issues between our buffs and other classes, such as BoM lasting 30 minutes and having a 40 yard range vs Battle shout at 20 yd range/2 minutes(5 Minutes with Glyph/Booming Voice).
-Plate needs to mean something now. All classes ignore armor now (Rogues- Poisons.) (Casters- Spells).
-We need to generate rage from (priest)shields somehow.
-Other than spell reflection, we have no way to mitigate spell damage.

Arms Concerns


-The new arms talents (imp rend/tfb) will probably not be taken because pummel and intercept (key abilities) are not available in battle stance. Arms has no mobility in battle stance and the harsh penalty for switching stances makes intercepting a challenge.
-Rend and Overpower donít contribute enough damage given the amount of talents spent on them.
-Itíd be nice if something in Arms refreshed the duration of Rend, so we can free up GCDs.
-Mortal Strike doesnít feel like itís hitting hard enough.
-Improved Hamstring should reduce the rage cost and/or increase the duration along with it's current effect.
-Mace specialization and Sword specialization donít really match up to Poleaxe specialization.
-Tier 9 Arms- Sudden death should be made into a 2 point talent or blood frenzy should be changed to a 1 point talent. In itís current state you have to spend 6 talent points deep in the tree to get all 3 desirable talents.
-Still has a lot of RNG.
- Mortal strike was our signature ability. Now it's just handed out to any class that you think needs to be buffed in PvP.


The Mortal Strike debuff is a tricky one. We do realize how potent it is in Arenas and we have used it on occasion to give classes or specs a good role in Arenas. But then recently we stopped and asked ourself where we were going with MS. If Ret and Enhancement and Feral and whoever ends up with MS, what's the point really? Shouldn't we just start you in Arenas with healing at 50% and be done with it? This is a topic we're thinking a lot about.

-Anger Management is underwhelming. This ability is very lackluster compared to Piercing howl/last stand(the other 11 point talents).
- Bladestorm needs to be given a speed bonus so that it's not rendered useless against targets that just use their abilities to get away. It has a 1.5 min CD and there should be a way of making sure that it's not rendered useless -damage wise- on a target(s).

Fury Concerns


-Heroic Fury should remove all movement impairing effects instead of just immobilizing effects.
-If you want furious attacks to be a alternative to MS, it needs to: increase itís duration, or increase itís PPM.
-Polearms should be included in TG.
-Bloodsurge doesnít do near as much damage as itís arms counterpart (Sudden death).
-Some talents (precision, dual wield specialization, flurry to a lesser degree) feel bloated and weak compared to other talents from other classes.
-Bloodthirst doesn't heal for enough.
-Rampage isnít on par with LotP, which brings up equality issues.
-Intensify Rage could possibly include Enraged Regeneration.
-Deathwish doesnít stack with Enrage and has a harsh penalty to boot.
-The recklessness 20% damage penalty is incredibly harsh considering the ability already has a cooldown.

Protection Concerns


-Change charge to a 1-second immobilize and 2-second interrupt. Warriors use this to start a battle but it's stun begins diminishing returns which cripples the protection stuns.
-Hamstring is not usable in defensive stance.
-There should be a PvP set that is specifically for Protection.

velouriam
11-06-2008, 11:44 AM
While i agree with exactly everything u stated...i wonder...what will still need tweaking at 80 and if all these were fixed would we be op. Im all about having class balance so skill is involved to defeat and opponent...however, some of these things u mentioned most definitly need fixing because it enables a lesser skilled/geared opponent to defeat us with ease i.e.:

Dismantle: either give us wm back in arms tree, reduce the effect it has in general to 5 secs, or make dismantle a talent dependant ability rather than a trainable one.

Stances: These definitly need looked at as rend and overpower make switching to zerker stance just to intercept rediculous. And moving intercept to BS or simply allowing us to use charge in all stances may negate the need for zerker stance. Same thing with pummel.

Charge/intercept: The majority of the time these effects put me just behind opponent and not stunning as should. Hard to hamstring an opponent when u charge him and he slides outta reach.

Warrior survivability: We are next to useless without a healer. Anytime im in arena now we instantly target warrior first knowing he will go down the quickest. Your are right...plate needs to mean something.

While i think bladestorm would be nice if it broke all impairing effects (frost nova, HoJ etc) especially since its CD is 1.5 min, i think its ok the way it is.
And yes, as u prob now know, sudden death is 9% on hit now. Playing arena yesterday i didnt notice that much of a difference other than the fact that before when we crit to proc this ability it generated alot of rage to be blown on execute. Now im getting sudden death procs with little rage to make execute worth little more than dmg dealt with ms. However, im ok with this to add balance.

Bloodwraith
11-06-2008, 01:25 PM
While i think bladestorm would be nice if it broke all impairing effects (frost nova, HoJ etc) especially since its CD is 1.5 min, i think its ok the way it is.

And yes, as u prob now know, sudden death is 9% on hit now. Playing arena yesterday i didnt notice that much of a difference other than the fact that before when we crit to proc this ability it generated alot of rage to be blown on execute. Now im getting sudden death procs with little rage to make execute worth little more than dmg dealt with ms. However, im ok with this to add balance.

They changed bladestorm so it breaks rooting effects in 3.0.3

I can tell the difference in proc rates for sudden death. I'm sitting on 49.5% chance to crit so it was a nerf to me. I wish they would revert the change. I also agree that when it does proc it can be at a low rage moment because you didn't just have a crit to proc it.

velouriam
11-06-2008, 03:03 PM
They changed bladestorm so it breaks rooting effects in 3.0.3


Im an idiot. i knew this. I just forgot about it since it seemed up until today i was having trouble breaking things with it. lol

Bloodwraith
11-06-2008, 04:39 PM
lol :D

It's a pretty nice change.

Kahmal
11-08-2008, 11:47 AM
I think a lot of the following would make us a little bit Overpowered. Between MS and Sudden Death or Burst is already good, having Overpower/Rend in both damage dealing stances would make our burst ludicrious. Slam not having a timer would do the same, the fact that it doesn't reset your swing anymore is good enough, you it to burst down shields when oppurtunity strikes.

Dismantle should be looked at.

As well as Hamstring.

blackthought
11-12-2008, 06:40 AM
It has always boggled my mind that we have no "spell damage" and no real spell mitigation. This is probably the biggest problem I have. I can do with having to catch people, I think the new in battle charges and 2 intercepts provide more than enough gap closing abilities...what I don't like is that I can get creamed for 5k from one iceblast or spell.

Actually I wouldn't even care if we didn't have spell damage, jut spell damage mitigation. Other thn wearing full thorium armour there really isn't any other option.

Pizzashark
12-03-2008, 01:57 AM
General Concerns:


-Piercing Howl should be a baseline ability.
-No escape mechanisms.
-Warriors should have the most effective (in terms of slowing effect) snare in the game.

Agreed here. Personally, I've always felt Crippling Poison was blatantly overpowered. I'd rather see 50% become the maximum possible snare, rather than break Hamstring/PH in an attempt to equalize them. We don't have many escape mechs (fear and run like hell), but I don't think we really need any; if I wanted to run every time someone started getting the upper hand instead of laughing at them and killing them anyway, I'd roll a rogue or druid.

In terms of group PvP, we have good enough mobility with Intercept+Intervene, especially with Heroic Fury (worst talent name ever!) or Warbringer. Arms is still kinda screwed here, but they get Improved Intercept and the rest of us don't :P


-Change charge to a 1-second immobilize and 2-second interrupt.
-Pummel and intercept should be added to battle stance to coincide with the Rend/Overpower arms talents.
-Warriors need magic damage or some sort of spell that is not mitigated by armor.

Agreed on first two parts; allow Shield Bash (our best interrupt) to be used in Berserker Stance.

Rend and other bleeds ignore armor. We have Sunder Armor to lower enemy armor as a concern for us. I think it's fine.


-Review the stance system for PvP. Itís too outdated and restricting.
-The berserker stance penalty is too high.
-Intimidating shout should not break immediately on damage.
-Without Weapon Mastery Arms and Protection builds are suffering from both other Warrior disarms and rogues using dismantle.
-Dismantle: We are rendered helpless, not being able to do any weapon damage and not being able to use any of our prime defense abilities aka Shield wall, Shield Reflect and Shield Block. 10 sec is a long time to go without doing damage or defense. Weapon mastery(fury) needs to be made easily available to the arms and protection trees. This mechanic is both a disarm and a shiled break rolled into one ability.

Stance system is a little dated, but I think it's a fun part of playing a warrior. Stance bonuses and negatives definitely need to be looked at, especially in light of how damned strong DK presences (basically stances for DKs) are. Berserker Stance penalty is very, very outdated; 10% more incoming damage is a massive liability in the land where 3k+ crits are the norm.

Intimidating Shout breaking on direct damage is fine. It breaking on dots from others is fine. It breaking on your own bleeds is fucking stupid, especially since you don't control Deep Wounds and Arms is reliant on bleeds. Suggest adding a glyph that alters Int. Shout to affect just the one target for 60 seconds (10 sec PvP) and lowers the cooldown by one minute; a poor man's Repentance, if you will. Gives DPS warriors a necessary CC element to make them more attractive as DPS instead of tanks, since not everyone enjoys tanking.

The Disarm duration reduction should just be a trainable Lv.30 ability; Warriors are the Masters of Meleeô, right? Roll the Dodge chance reduction into, say, DW Spec, and reduce it to 3 points at 8/1-16/2-25/3. Partially addresses your later bloat concerns. Two gnomes, one mallet.


-Hamstring needs to be reapplied every 2 to 3 GCDís because of short duration and snare reduction.
-Slam currently is situational at best even with Imp slam. Change it so itís instant but reduce the damage.
-Warriors are very healer dependent.
-We donít retain enough rage for stance dancing to feel fluid
-Many of our abilties come with a downside, which feels unfair given many of these abilties have cooldowns or pay offs that do not feel strong enough to need a downside.
-Many Warriors feel there are parity issues between our buffs and other classes, such as BoM lasting 30 minutes and having a 40 yard range vs Battle shout at 20 yd range/2 minutes
-Plate needs to mean something now. All classes ignore armor now (Rogues- Poisons.) (Casters- Spells).
-Fix Charge/ Intercept so the target doesn't get away or outrun it.
-We need to generate rage from shields somehow.

Hamstring duration is okay. Increasing its duration would make Toughness snare reduction pointless. Just gotta get used to using it every three seconds instead of every seven. Making a class require more talent to play well is not a bad thing, from my point of view.

Healer dependancy is partially offset by the fact that we never, ever run out of go-juice. We hit things, we get angry, and we use that anger to hit things more, which makes us even angrier... If they hit US, we just get pissed and hit them right back. Retardins go OOM. DKs have to manage runes and generate RP. We just get in their face and rape it in and don't stop till they finally put us down. It's fine. We get Enraged Regeneration, anyway.

Not sure what you mean, downside, unless you're talking about stances again, in which Berserker is really the only one with a downside now. Shield Bash without a shield would be... silly.

Blessings can be dispelled.

Plate and shields make a world of difference. You haven't spent much time as anything but a plateboy if you think otherwise ;)

Charge/intercept/intervene bug is a technical problem, not a design problem. I do think Blizzard needs to fix it in a hurry, though. Not like they can't just keep throwing money at it till it fixes itself :P

If by "shields" you mean priest/mage bubbles... everyone has shield slam now. Dispel the bubble and go back to smashing.


Protection Concerns:


-Diminishing returns cripple Charge/ Intercept and the stuns in the tree.

Already addressed above.


-Hamstring is not usable in defensive stance.

Piercing Howl sure is.


-Improved Spell Reflection should also reduce the cool down.

They already tried that and it was stupidly overpowered; your entire party was perpetually immune to direct target spells if the warrior had half a brain and SpellAlerter.


-There should be a PvP set that is specifically for Protection.

Existing set is perfectly fine with the new STR/2 block value formula. Shield with less STA and bonus STR would be nice, but it's hardly necessary.


-There should be some sort of healing debuff in the prot tree to coincide with MS and Furious Attacks

Prot gets stuns and interrupts out the ass, it doesn't need a healing debuff. Furious Attacks is the stupidest, most lazy excuse for a talent I've ever seen and has absolutely nothing to do with Fury. I still have issues believing it made it out of Beta.

Take out Furious Attacks and give Fury something like Frenzy from D2's Barbarian. Not like they didn't steal a ton from the lovable blue-painted guy already :P

Pizzashark
12-10-2008, 11:13 PM
I don't agree on the reasoning for PH being made baseline, but I do agree it should be. I don't see it as necessary for all Warriors; mainly only Protection (Hamstring being available in both Battle and Berserker for Arms and Fury), and only then if the Prot warrior isn't willing or able to leave Defensive for a little bit. I want PH to be made baseline because of the huge issues with Charge, Intercept, and Intervene pathfinding. You must have PH to immediately snare someone you overshoot or undershoot, or there's a fairly good chance they'll get out of range before you can do much. Removal of stun resistance helps address this, but it's a bandaid for an arterial laceration - not very effective.

Increasing Hamstring's range to 10 yards is also an acceptable solution.

I still don't think anyone needs a snare stronger than 50% (Rogues...) I do not think that Warriors necessarily need the best snare in the game because we have plenty of options for staying close without a snare. Every Warrior has Intercept, and all three specs get some method of improving their ability to stay close (Arms gets Improved Hamstring+Improved Intercept, Fury gets Heroic Fury, and Protection gets Warbringer.) Compared to a Shaman, who has no instant method of closing the gap (and still has no means of handling roots, just snares); Rogues, who must spec for it; Pallies, who have no means of instantly closing the gap; and Death Knights, who have to bring the target to them (which can be a distinct disadvantage against Intercept's moving you to them.)

Toughness snare reduction effect may be a little too strong. Alternatively, some snares (Hamstring?) could have their PvP durations increased to compensate. I do think that most snares should last at least five seconds on a target regardless of Toughness, otherwise they run a distinct risk of being almost worthless for that purpose.

Change to Charge Stun is a no-brainer and should have been done a very long time ago.

Vorps
12-11-2008, 06:12 AM
Maybe this is more of a PvE concern, but I think it's problematic that Shield Wall is still tied to the GCD.

Bloodwraith
12-11-2008, 02:08 PM
I don't agree on the reasoning for PH being made baseline, but I do agree it should be. I don't see it as necessary for all Warriors; mainly only Protection (Hamstring being available in both Battle and Berserker for Arms and Fury), and only then if the Prot warrior isn't willing or able to leave Defensive for a little bit. I want PH to be made baseline because of the huge issues with Charge, Intercept, and Intervene pathfinding. You must have PH to immediately snare someone you overshoot or undershoot, or there's a fairly good chance they'll get out of range before you can do much. Removal of stun resistance helps address this, but it's a bandaid for an arterial laceration - not very effective.

I edited the post to include that point :D

Pizzashark
12-11-2008, 11:22 PM
Teehee.

I'd much rather they just fix the pathing errors for Charge/Intercept/Intervene (Rogues never seem to have issues teleporting into someone's butt, so why do we have issues running to them?), but I'm guessing it's not a simple fix, else it would have been fixed already. Why not give us the little movespeed boost that Rogues get after Gankstepping? :P

Sippin
12-13-2008, 12:53 AM
hamstring in D stance, Charge off DR (feral charge), PH Baseline, or fix fucking rapemeintheassplsmages 10% damage inc stance.

Even only one of those and I will be happy.

Kahmal
01-04-2009, 02:24 AM
Now first I'd like to say, I haven't seriously PvP'd since level 60, it just got too god damn frustrating due to imbalances. Seeing a mage and just having to scream for help and run just didn't seem fair.

Looking at BC PvP videos though I saw that nearly anything seemed possible if played right. Also while leveling my second Warrior a Tauren, getting ganked by people in full PvP gear and being able to do squat about it waws annoying. I wanted revenge. I thought Wotlk was the time to jump into PvP again.

PvP is way worse then when it was back at level 60 now. I'm really starting to think that Blizzard has absolutly no common sense. They spent so much damn time trying to balance PvE DPS out they didn't even CONSIDER what it would do to PvP.

Its like these guys never think ahead, and when they screw stuff up they take FOREVER to act on it, like they're in denial about the whole thing saying things like "just wait until so so, they'll be fine."

When they buffed Ret at 3.0 they said that "Ret is right where it should be its fine." A few days later I'm guessing a GM got ganked by one then yelled to his team OMFG Paladins are to OP!!!"

Hunter DPS was clearly too high and they just now act upon it. And now they're claiming, 'oh wait until you all have resilence everything will be balanced.' PvP was bareable for me at level 70 in the crappy Blue Set, the Blacksmithing Set guys you an extra few seconds against rogues, paladins and mages! They'll be rescaling resil soon enough most likely.

Now on to the Arms Warrior. Yes in Arena with a good comp they are good. But there seriously isn't a thing a Warrior does that a Death Knight can't do better, MS is overrated these days. Blizzard goes out of it's way to make the perfect class leaving Arms Warriors, Locks and Shaman to die.

And I know Warriors were never a 1 on 1 class, but it was always doable against many classes. Now even rogues, a class we were meant to dominate can destroy us. Dismantle....WHO THE FUCKS IDEA WAS THAT!? and Blizzard just sounds more retarded also the more they decide to defend themselves. All new abilities should he added to give a class an edge around they're weakness. Blizzard clearly stated that Rogues only got Dismantle cause they didn't get any other "cool" new move....no one thought of the massive QQ incoming!?

As of now Arms Warriors are completly out classed by DK, Ret Paladins, and Rogues in terms of damage output, utility and survival. PvP Prot is great, but it's not how I wanna PvP it's too slow pace and I've been Prot for awhile, it'd be nice to respec PvP arms for weekends and just smack somebody.

A few ideas I have are.

Weapon Throw - Awesome move if your Prot and spec'd Gag Order, but its just lame other wise. Should it be a ranged silence all together? I dont think so, it'd be a great new edge against mages, but would be overkill on some other classes probably. However, if spec'd or glyphed into Imp Hamstring it should at least be a slow or a snare. (if DK can get Death Grip why not!)

Healing - Paladins can bubble and Death Knights can just Death Strike they're health to full if not Blood Worm....I think thats complete BS, but to even the playing field I see no reason why Enraged Regeration can't be on a 1-2 minute Cooldown self heal for even more whether through talents or glyphs and/or buff seconds winds health recovery or speed of the recovery, along with Blood Craze. (might need to be toned down was we gear though)

Bladestorm!? - I think Bladestorm is awesome when used right. It's rather hard to pull off though. You gotta make sure MS is up other wise the target can be healed through it, and Hamstring should be up (unless snared by your partner or the target will just get away. You can either have BS increase movement speed or take it off the GCD. It would also be cool if it either did or had a chance to refresh all Warrior debuffs upon hit. (that two might be over kill though)

Sudden Death - Ok...this is basically our new PvP damage dealing move. I personally hate how it works. Whether I win or lose depends on how many procs I get, I'd rather something completly new. The problem with Sudden Death is though it hits like a truck....you burn all but 10% of your rage...and we're normally rage starved as it is. After a fat crit you dont have the rage to put up another MS so he can't be healed before that final death blow. Either lower the rage cost of MS...or rework Sudden Death and Overpower. I think Imp Overpower should increase the damage of Overpower by a lot slightly increasing it's rage cost, while Sudden Death was a fairly weaker Execute, but didn't burn so much damn Rage. This way PvE arms doesn't get hit too hard.

Anger Management - this should be they key to our starvation problems....buff it...please. 5-10 rage or something would be great every few seconds.

Stances aren't bothering me too much but they do need to be looked at, I never quite understood why we had to lose rage for switching stances....

Strfry
01-04-2009, 04:38 AM
Everyone has pretty much covered everything I QQ about in game, lol. I think it would be pretty neat to give us some kind of sprint, on CD similiar to rogues, that exhausts us removing all rage and cutting the rage generation in half while active or something along those lines (tried something similar on Warhammer). This would probably be very beneficial to fury and arms and not so much for prot due to warbringer...but even a skilled mage can kite prot to death! Then again thats what makes mages....One more thing I'd like to add too is with all the changes the game has gone through with the new expansion I've noticed there are tons of new combos in arena that would have never worked in BC but are hitting the high 1900s already...for instance three prot paladins (or so they claim), LOL. As much as a agree that warriors are more dependant on healers than ever, the main point is that we dont really need to stick with cookie cutter specs and combos anymore. Of course, as patches are applied, arena gear changes, and people climb the arena ranks to upper tiers a "norm" would probabably develop as well.