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View Full Version : Mains and alts in raids...



chun
11-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Background:
the guild I'm in started small, with only about 13 folks when TBC hit.
We got into kara and plowed our way through slowly, having a blast while
doing it.

Of course, we then hit the 25 man wall, and decided to add some folks and
just give it a shot (we raid 1-2 nights per week for about 3.5 hrs).
Doing this, we made it to BT before the latest content patch. We've also
added a lot of people during that time.


Statement:
One of the big frustrations I had (as a tank), as well as others, was that
folks ended up levelling/quasi-gearing a bunch of alts. While most tanks and
healers were set, it seemed like a lot of dpsers were constantly switching/
rerolling. This lead to partial gearing of a lot of alts, instead of solid gearing
on a much smaller set of mains.

Proposed Solution:
We are considering putting the following policy in for Wotlk, and I would
like feedback on this :)


Mains & Main Alts (M’s and MA’s)
This is probably our biggest change for WotLK. Everyone that intends to raid, needs to pick a Main character. For the most part, that will be the ONLY character you raid with during guild raids. The only exception to this will be main Alts’. Main alts will only exist if your M or MA is a tank or healer. Meaning you cannot have 2 DPS toons that raid on regularly scheduled guild raids.

* If your M is a DPS class, you may have a MA that is a tank or a healer only.
* If your M is a Tank class, you may have a MA that is a DPS or a healer only.
* If your M is a Healer class, you may have a MA that is a DPS or a Tank only.
* Your M and MA may be the same toon. Example: Shaman, M Elemental spec and MA Resto spec.


For the most part only your M will be invited to raids. If the raid is short healers, tanks, or DPS and your MA is one of those classes, then your MA could join the raid. As for other alts…feel free to put 5, 10, and 25man raids together for alt runs, just not for regular scheduled raid nights.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Gwailo
11-03-2008, 12:26 PM
I.. like it. o_o

Usually I'm entirely against the idea of bringing alts into raids, but this seems to mix things up a little with some common sense and logic applied.

The only problem I could see is progression, but I guess if you over the whole stage of being concerned about progression, this would definitely cool. The question then becomes, what happens if all your healers want to play their DPS alts and none of the DPS want to play their Healer Alts, or even worse.. have alts for that matter.

Another issue would be where loot goes; there must be some kind of priority so M > MA.

Very situational, but this is why I brought it up.

loquatious
11-03-2008, 12:53 PM
We just have a policy of mains > alts for gear. If the raid leader asks someone to bring in an alt (typically a tank or healer toon) then they get bonus DKP.

protonly
11-03-2008, 01:25 PM
I like that idea and it would be an idea I would consider if I ran a guild. Basically, the short end of the rule is "You can only have one toon perform one job (tank/heal/dps) and once a toons has chosen a job it can not change."

I've been in guilds where people had a zillion alts they wanted to play and it caused *huge* progression issues. Alts were only allowed on raids that were scheduled as "alt" runs and provided that no main wanted that spot.

Only exception being a progression run where "random dps" or an "extra healer" were required. Tanks for progression-level raids were never pug'd or alt'd and only an "extra" healer was pug'd or alt'd (i.e. we normally need 7 healers but we want 8, we pug or alt the 8 one).

Endboss
11-03-2008, 01:43 PM
I used basicly the same system and it worked wonderfully. We got tired of hearing "Oh, my lock could use stuff from there" when their main Rogue still needed drops from half the bosses.

We had everyone pick their main class and spec. That was the class they had to sign up as and were expected to bring. We were pretty close knit so we all knew what kind of alts each other had, so we would bring in others alts as needed.

I heard no negative feedback from it whatsoever. Everyone understood the rule's intentions and just ran their alts on their free time if they needed gear from a certain raid.

If you have attendance/gearing problems via alts, imo put the rule in place.

chun
11-03-2008, 03:00 PM
We got tired of hearing "Oh, my lock could use stuff from there" when their main Rogue still needed drops from half the bosses.

Exactly this.

I understand that many folks like having alts so that they don't get
burned out on their main (particularly tanks and healers), so having
a primary alt isn't bad. It's alts number 3-7 that really drive me crazy...

Even with loot prioritys in place, it just means we substitute a decently
geared toon for a mediocre-geared one. That tends to add subtle pressures
on other areas of the raid.

Thanks for the feedback folks.

Goodmann
11-03-2008, 07:36 PM
This is a good idea and similar to what i tried to implement in a former guild i was in but the leaders there didn't seem to understand the idea at all.
But i think i will try and take this up with the leaders i nthe guild i tank in now, we managed to take down illidan tonight so very very happy to be done with it now...:D

orcstar
11-04-2008, 12:41 AM
Alts screw over the process of getting offspec gear as a tank/healer. There's goodies I want for my dps set but bringing in alt #453 rolling mainspec on an item I like and have seen drop a dozen of times, always going to mainspec can be a bit frustrating.
On the other hand I still honor that I will not take gear from people who need it mainspec, but it's hard.

Wartank
11-04-2008, 01:12 AM
With talk of potential healer shortages and many of those facing burnout/ boredom perhaps a 'you can have a main alt provided its a healer' rule. And allow all healers a main alt.

Narshe
11-04-2008, 01:37 AM
You could allow the Tank for tank or healer for healer alt rule. When you do that, you still have the same raid setup and the guy who is switching already know his role better than a DPS who brings his healer or a tank who never dps'ed.
I can tell you from my own experience, sometimes tanks or healers does not want to do DPS but to perform the role they like using different playstyle.
Pre-WotLK tanking with paladins or warriors was very far different as it will be to tank with a DK vs. warrior when the expansion sets.

Riskvikk
11-06-2008, 05:15 AM
I know your problem, we've been experiencing alot of issues with alts joining raids aswell.
Started off with generally lacking healers, I as a mage(yeah, mage in TBC, protwarr in wotlk :D) wasn't really needed since we had around 5-6 really active and skilled mages, attending to all raids. So well, I had my shaman, decently geared, got all the gear you could have outside raids, and it turned out multiple of times that I had to relog and do the raid on my shammy.
However, this led to alot of complaints and stuff, healers wanted to raid their dps alt, dps wanted to raid a lower geared dps alt of another class etc.

And when the answer came from us officers that you, with no chance could come on your alt, the respond was 9 of 10 times something like "omg you officers can raid alts but we can't". Well, the solution, and what we set up now as a really strong rule for wotlk, is pretty much that no alts at all is gonna be allowed in raids, UNLESS there's actually deemed really really important for the guilds progress. There's a strict rule about Main>alt prio on loots, and alts will be rolling against offspec-mains on items.

In my opinion, you should rather just aim for setting a rule to have everyone raiding on their mains, it looks like a rather good solution you came up with, but I really doubt it'll work out 100% fine, I'm afraid you'll have big problems with deciding who of the people you gonna let logging their alt for a raid if there's 2 persons to choose between. And who can say what gear is enough for raiding the regular content on?

My point is, no matter how you solve the problem, letting alts into raids, will ALWAYS bring loads of complications, in all shape or forms. Don't know how this'll work in a rather casual guild though, but I'm quiet sure it'll endup pretty much with the same ending.

Petninja
11-06-2008, 05:51 AM
I may be guilty of having too many alts. Hoping to have my 5th 70 finished before Xpac. He's sitting in Zangar ATM.

Lizana
11-09-2008, 11:06 AM
The problem with this logic is what happens after the content is on farm. Say i have a Warlock in the guild, hes fully geared from the instance in question. He has a Rogue alt. I can either bring in some one needing Zero gear from the instance, therefore would not come and leave me short a dpser or i can bring in his alt, while its another dpser, to me this is better to allow more people to gear up once they have geared from the instance.

Wartank
11-09-2008, 01:39 PM
T I can either bring in some one needing Zero gear from the instance, therefore would not come and leave me short a dpser

Pretty simple answer i give to this one, there is no i in team. I just cant understand the logic, 'hey 24 other people help gear me up, but as soon as im done get stuffed!' Ill have them in officers chat with finger hovering over the gkick button so fast their heads will spin. Fortunately this has never happened in our guild, we are lucky everyone understands the team comes first.

If its good enough for the 24 other people to help gear this person up with their best efforts, best toon then I expect that person to do the same for the others. Until such a time we dont want gear from that instance anymore and move on, which means they can gear their alt on non core nights basically.

That said if a good guildie asks, if they can swap in a toon for a certain fight and they only get gear if all other mains have it, and swapping will have little impact on the fight, then sure it will be considered.

orcstar
11-12-2008, 06:50 AM
The problem with this logic is what happens after the content is on farm. Say i have a Warlock in the guild, hes fully geared from the instance in question. He has a Rogue alt. I can either bring in some one needing Zero gear from the instance, therefore would not come and leave me short a dpser or i can bring in his alt, while its another dpser, to me this is better to allow more people to gear up once they have geared from the instance.
I all people who were finished gearwise in a dungeon would behave like this your guild qould quickly fall apart or be stuck on content forever.
Some people are lucky and some are less lucky, and in a raid not all will be done in a dungeon at the same time, might be weeks in between.

And what if it's the tank who wants to bring his rogue? He's basically putting in time to gear your alts and all too often he doesn't get the same love back. Tank is geared and makes a run easy and is expected to be there while dps..........

Lizana
11-12-2008, 11:32 AM
Its nice that everyone else posting in this thread has guildies that have no care about their own chars progression and gearing. I personally have not ran into many t6 geared people that want to run Kara for a second guild group. Once they are done with badge gear as well. Any loot system has to account for peoples natural greed and want to improve their own chars

Wartank
11-12-2008, 01:28 PM
Hmmm I thought we were talking core raid nights in this thread. I dont know too many T6 guilds that run kara on these nights. I dont think anyone would mind what toons people used on none core nights provided their main was in top nick.

Molloy
11-17-2008, 09:46 AM
I have to agree with several of the others that it becomes a major issue when Alts start being brought into the mix. Especially the "well you officers can bring YOUR alts" QQbitchbitchQQ b/c the person doesn't know the behind the scenes stuff of why Joe the amazing healer just left the raid for no public reason and we HAVE to get an extra healer back.

And yes, I've seen in my own guild, major turmoil when a boss either refuses to die, or one of your primary raiders has all the gear he/she "wants" from an instance and no longer cares enough to show up for the raids or threatens to /gquit over not being in an alt they have no idea how to play/spec properly and which has zero gear. (She's dead now, but Vashj is a dirty whore, nuff' said)

We have had, and will likely continue to have in the future a mains>alts rule in place.
My big question is now that we are going to be able to swap specs on the fly and thus a hybrid toon may end up filling multiple roles in a raid "regularly enough to need gear" What do we do about main spec vs offspec?

I would deeply love to hear some other opinions around that topic.

My example in this situation. We have had the same main guild warrior tank for YEARS. He is not going to change. So in a raid where one boss needs 4 tanks and one needs only a single tank, the rest of us will go dps/healing spec for that (most likely). But we "obviously" can't ninja gear from someone else's main spec. So where does that leave us. We are required for the good of progression to make the swap. But we need the gear to be effective at it.

Gallenheart
11-29-2008, 02:16 AM
We have had, and will likely continue to have in the future a mains>alts rule in place.
My big question is now that we are going to be able to swap specs on the fly and thus a hybrid toon may end up filling multiple roles in a raid "regularly enough to need gear" What do we do about main spec vs offspec?

I would deeply love to hear some other opinions around that topic.

I stick with Main Characters/Main Specs on Progression raids only. Alt are ONLY allowed if we ask you to bring it to fill in a vital spot. If we ask you to bring an alt in, then that alt can roll on anything that pertains to the alt main spec.

This also falls in with: If we ask you to respec, then that is considered your main spec that night, you only bid for gear of the spec you are raiding in.

It solves pretty much any problem with have about main spec and offspecs for progression runs. Any farming runs we have reserves for those people that have been farming an instance or boss for a long time just to get one piece of gear they need to move on.

This is how we solve priority:



Main toons rolling for an item for their main set. Main set is defined as which spec is your official spec for raiding with us. For example, if you're a resto druid, you get main priority on healing leather. If you're a warrior tank, you will get main priority rolls for tanking plate. We will not, for example, pass a cloth healing item to a holy paladin if there is a priest who can use it.
Main toons rolling for a secondary main set. This is in regards to the following classes:

* Approved characters for a specialty set. (i.e. Mage Stam set for tanking in the HKM fight in Gruuls)

* Feral Druid Tanks for DPS Leather.
Alternate toons rolling for an item for their main set.
Main or Alternate toons rolling for an item for an offset.
Pledges rolling for an item for an main sets.
Pledges rolling for an item for an off sets.
Dust and roll for DE Mat.

This priority is base both for Suicide Kings (for 10 man raids) and DKP for 25 Core Team Progression Raids.

I also define any classes that might have a "secondary main set" like a tanking feral druid because we take advantage of the ability for a feral druid to switch between DPS and tank with just a flick of a button be we also require that our tanking druids know how to DPS in cat form too else we just tell them to go resto or boomkin or reroll.

OOPS! Edited to answer your question about the dual specing ability soon... I would have to see how it works. If they can just flip a switch, say, a priest, from holy to shadow, then I would stick with what they do the most as the main spec and the other spec as an offspec and have them collect the offspec gear by getting the "hand me downs".

Kedearian
12-23-2008, 11:05 PM
Alts are kind of important for the transition from 10 -> 25 man raids. mainly because of the way raid makeup changes.
5 mans - 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps.
10 man - 2 tanks 3 healers, 5 dps. -> you already need a dps to change to a healer.
25 man - 3 tanks(2MT 1OT), 5 healers, 17 dps. -> lose atleast 2 tanks, 1 healer, and convert them to dps.

Having an alt (or alt spec) means you dont have to throw good raiders our because you dont need the extra few tanks. This was a big problem in tbc since 25's were the only progression there was. That said Main > alt(or offset). Every time. With DKP alts paid 2x for any drop if no one else needed it, and alts were not given the debt buffer that mains were allowed.

Ked

Crommi
12-25-2008, 02:57 PM
We have it simple, no alts invited into official raids (you cannot bid on items as an alt anyways). To counter laziness, if someone doesn't want to come and has not stated being "unavailable" in AFK topic, he will receive dkp penalty. On top of that, if attendancy is below certain percentage, you will lose your right to bid against active raiders. Eventually keeping up low attendancy will lead into demotion and opening a spot for new recruit.

Othugg
01-01-2009, 10:06 AM
The main issue isn't with alts so much as with players who expect you to carry their alts in progression raids, correct? So why not just say "mains only in progression raids, and there's a dps/mitigation/mp5 and spellpower cap for getting into x farm raid".

Farm content is for gearing up new players. Period. If a player doesn't meet the minimum requirements for a new raid, he should be in a lower raid or heroics gear himself. Anyone who expects you to carry their ungeared ass through raids should be gkicked immediately.

Vuur
01-05-2009, 01:14 PM
I like the idea. One issue we run into is that in a small guild we do not always have the luxury of taking all mains to fill 25 raid spots due to class balance. However, with that being known, alts are expected to have a minimal set of gear (as was also mentioned above) before they can get into the raid. There's plenty of pug's of naxx and other dungeons going on as well as crafted items that should get the alts a good start to being raid ready.
Mains will obviously gear up faster than alts but if the guild needs the alt to fill a certain spot chances are good that the alt has a chance of winning a drop or 2 during the night.