PDA

View Full Version : Loot Distribution Systems in WotLK



TheGrowler
10-27-2008, 10:36 AM
I'm a frequent reader but not a frequent poster, so a quick intro: I'm the GM/MT/RL of <The Risen> on Tichnodrius (a 3yr old progression guild with your standard set of rules, class leads, and a dkp system for 25-man loot that has stood the test of years with minor tweaks since the 40-man days).

Now to my topic:

In BC, we would /roll for 10-man loot because there was little contention for any given piece among 10 players. With a little of what we call the "don't be gay rule" thrown in, we managed without any incident and loot distribution facilitated progression to the extent that 10-man content was available in BC.
We managed 25-man loot with a DKP system with fairly common policies.

I'm looking at WotLK and I'm uncertain about the optimal loot distribution method. I want the same things we all want.. to optimize distribution for progression, to shape attendance behavior, to have a fair and unbiased approach, etc, etc.

Our Raid Schedule Plan: We raid ~3 nights a week. We will make an opportunistic decision at raid start time about the night's target(s) (split into 10's or tackle 25-man content). Once earlier 10-man content is on alt/farm status, we will push it off the raid schedule and allow our members at large to organize off-schedule runs.

Reasons why I'm even considering DKP for 10-mans:
10-man content reaches further down the progression line
Consolidation of stats (think spell power) give 10-man drops more users/item
Tier set bonuses are shared between 10- and 25-man pieces

Reasons why I'm against using DKP in 10-mans:
DKP administration using our current tool is difficult to manage with multiple weekly 10-man's
I expect us to graduate some farm status 10-man's off of our raid schedule and allow members at large to schedule off-night runs.

In the face of higher complexity, some officers' first instinct was to bring it all back to basics and do /rolls and/or loot council for everything. I believe we had DKP for good reasons and still need it, but I'm faced with the question of where it applies and where it doesn't given the new 10/25-man options in WotLK.

As it stands today, I'm thinking we'll handle 10's the way we handled kara/za loot before (with /rolls) and 25's will remain on DKP. I'm just not 100% sure so I thought I'd reach out to the community here and get a read on your views and plans as they pertain to loot distribution come WotLK.

Thanks,
TheGrowler
<The Risen>
Tichondrius

Satrina
10-27-2008, 11:07 AM
Just random the stuff in 10 mans, then use a DKP system with decay in 25 mans so that people have a use em or lose em points incentive to buy the upgrades. We're going to use EPGP in WLK for exactly that.

ttocs
10-28-2008, 01:05 PM
Maybe it was because it wasn't maintained properly (points were decayed once a week, or something), but I thought EPGP was terrible.

In my prior guild, we've had people go inactive for weeks (while having their EP/GP decay), show up the week of a first kill, and basically take free loot. It seemed like it devalued high-attendance players in favor of casuals.

Maybe it was the way the guild operated (decay wasn't applied consistently, turnover was incredibly high, etc.), but I thought it was a terrible idea.

Satrina
10-28-2008, 01:16 PM
If you screw up the decay, it will suck yep. I've modelled EPGP out to 250 and 300 raids using our historical attendance and turnover numbers and am satisfied it will work for us.

Krashtork
10-28-2008, 01:37 PM
I would love to see a detailed post on your EPGP system Satrina. It seems to me that it would be a difficult system to fine tune.

Horacio
10-28-2008, 01:50 PM
I was in an EPGP system for a few months and it has its pros and cons. The more static your raid is, the more each player contributes, the better it works. In a perfect world, if you had 25 people working together and putting in equal effort, it would be as good a system as you could ask for. Everyone will get loot and no one can skip loot now to hoard for the future as effectively as with a ZS DKP system or a straight DKP system.

I speak from experience in saying that it is pretty harsh to people who take items they later regret...it cycles through priority quickly and taking an item knocks you out. If you have a solid, low turnover raid, its going to someone who will help you out and contribute to your success.

Wow, I wrote 3 paragraphs of nothing. Grats me.

Caulle
11-06-2008, 06:18 AM
Bumping this because it's looking like my guild might get 25s together for 2 nights/week right now, mostly because we know we're not going to find a challenge in the 10s. Anywho, we're looking for a new loot system as well. I've never liked EQ, so I'm looking for some other alternative.

Sangi
11-06-2008, 06:53 AM
We use Ni Karma. It is a roll plus bonus system. You can roll on items with and with out bonus. If you choose to add bonus to your roll you lose half your karma. Mathimatically it tends towards Zero sum. It also functions a little like suicide kings in that when you win something if people have similar attendance you drop far below them. While you still may have a chance at winning the odds are against it. The main issue that we have hit with it is that we run with a cap. We have been finding that on farm content that people hit the cap rather quickly.

Caulle
11-06-2008, 06:58 AM
We were actually working on our own custom hand coded DKP at one point in time around the time we started T6, but the guy who was coding it ran into some RL financial difficulties and didn't have time to play the game let alone code a personal project. Ugh, such a shame. It would have been a perfectly amazing DKP for our group. Not for everyone mind you.

Riskvikk
11-06-2008, 06:58 AM
Rolling the 10 man loot is indeed probably the best solution.

As for EPGP, we've been using it for ages. I really really like it, it totally rewards the people who attend alot, and you can not really sit there and stack up alot of EP for ages. You'll have to be rather active to be able to keep up top on the priority list, due the decay you do(you're free to choose what percentage you want the addon to decay), we do it once each raid, some people does it once each week, but i'd say, once each raid is pretty much the best choice.

I know that alot of people probably are quiet oldschool and have been using Dragon Kill Points since they started raiding back in vanilla wow, so a quick summary about EPGP for the intrested:

EPGP is a system based 100% ingame, using an addon called EPGP(duh?). Download link: epgp (dkp reloaded) - Addons - Curse (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/epgp-dkp-reloaded.aspx)

The addon stores the information using the Players officer notes and some strings in the guild information tab.

EP(Efforpoints): This is the easy part, you gain EP from killing bosses, also from the timed EP function(you'll get an EP reward based on for example 30Minutes), from wiping in raids and for beeing on time to raids etc. This is totally modfifyable, you may choose to reward whatever you want to reward, and there's also an REALLY REALLY nice way of giving away EP to people sitting on standby, when you for example kill a boss, you announce in Guildchat that the boss is down and people should whisper you to aquire their standby EP for that boss kill. You can also choose which channel this should be announced in so for example if you only want to reward the raidmembers wipe EP, you post that in the raidchat.

GP(Gearpoints): You get credited gear points from looting an item, different prices on different items.

PR(Priority rating): From dividing your EP with your GP you get your Priority rating. This decides who's on top of the priority list, obviously, and the top one gets the item. (The addon does this for you :p)

You can penalise bad work, inactivity, afking without any reasons etc by either giving people -EP or giving them +GP. Plus GP does affect the most, so I personally like that method the most, but it's up to you as an officer/RL/GM etc to discuss and decide what you think is the best for your guild.


Im at a webdesign lesson now, so i might missed couple of things, tabbing from adobe PS, adobe flash etc to this forum while writing, however, come with questions if you got any!

orcstar
11-06-2008, 07:24 AM
About EPGP: do only effortpoints decay or do gearpoints also decay?

TheGrowler
11-06-2008, 08:57 AM
I'm interested in EGPG, but from what I've gathered the magic sauce is in the values you assign for various variables such as decay rates, etc. I'm wondering if someone with EGPG experience could post up an outline of what each of those variables are, the default or recommended values or ranges are for each, and a desciption of effects and considerations for altering each variable. Some models of optimal variable settings might be nice, too.. for example, a raiding team with a 30-man roster and very high attendance %'s may have one set of optimal values that differs greatly from a team with a 45-man roster and lower attendance percentages.

Satrina- I'm also very interested in how you tested the system using historicals. If you could share some insight on your tools and methods to accomplish this I'd appreciate not having to re-invent that wheel.

Riskvikk
11-06-2008, 12:47 PM
About EPGP: do only effortpoints decay or do gearpoints also decay?

Both effort points and gear points gets decayed.

Riskvikk
11-06-2008, 01:15 PM
I can simply help you with pretty much copy paste from the way we're doing things in Velocity, on Grim Batol.

Note before reading: There're some things we're using in raids that not every guild is used to I suppose. We always have an assigned "AFK Officer" an officer that is the person you whisper if you by any emergency or etc, need to go afk for couple of minutes in the raid.

I'm not sure what to call us really, we've been raiding 5 days a week, 4 hours a raid, with overtime now and then, cleared 4/6 sunwell before patch(to excuse myself we were stuck on magtheridon alliance for ages, no recruits etc but that's another story). However this system is supposed to work with 4-5 days of raiding in the beginning of WoTLK.


Some basics:

* Before EACH raid the points for EVERYONE in the GUILD, are decayed by 10%, by the RL. This means EVERYONE's EP and GP are decreased by 10%. This way PR is not changed for anyone, but for people that dont raid, they will not be able to live on "old" efforts for long.


* Before EACH raid the points for EVERYONE in the GUILD, are decayed by 10%, by the RL. This means EVERYONE's EP and GP are decreased by 10%. This way PR is not changed for anyone, but for people that dont raid, they will not be able to live on "old" efforts for long.


*NOTE* There are 2 ways of getting loot with this system. Either you a) Raid as much as possible and get loads of EP, and so have a higher prio. OR b) you can slack like hell, keeping your EP just above 1500, and wait till your GP is decayed down below 50, then you can need on any item you want as you will have the highest PR in the guild.

But we are not a bunch of slackers are we?

So to prevent this second scenario the LOWEST GP any player can have is 100GP!
If at the time of looting anyone has under 100GP, it shall be INCREASED to 100GP before looting.

* Officers/master looters have the right to give priority on loot to certain classes or players, if it is deemed important for the guild's progress.

* New trials will start in the guild with 500GP. This way it will take some time until their GP is decayed and EP accumulated to levels that make it possible for them to receive loot.

Penalties:

Ninja Pulls & Noob Mistakes = -500EP
Not Using Consumables on Progress Bosses = +100GP
Leaving the Raid Early without a GOOD reason, that you have told Officers about at the START of the raid = +100GP
Delaying the raid at a boss by being Afk Regardless! = +50GP
AFK more than 5 Mins Without Informing the Afk Officer = +50GP
AFK More than 10 Minutes = +100GP
Not being available when called up from standby within 5mins (A reasonable amount of time) = -500EP
Missing an entire week of raiding regardless = +50GP **

** So that people who have been away can not come back suddenly and get loot on a freshly downed boss that others have been wiping on for the last few weeks.

EP Awards(Note, since this is formed for WoTLK it's not 100% finished yet):

Naxx 25 Man

Time EP = +25EP (30 Min)
Wipe EP (Farm) = +5EP
Wipe EP (Progress) = +10EP
Boss EP (Farm) = +100EP
Boss EP (1st Kill) = +125EP
Sapphiron = +150EP
Kel'Thuzad = +200EP

Obsidian Sanctum 25 Man
Time EP = +25EP (30 Min)

Eye of Eternity 25 Man
Time EP = +25EP (30 Min)

Standby EP awards:

Per Boss Kill : After each boss kill a message will be spammed in guild chat.

30 Minute Interval : Time Ep, every 30 minutes you may claim time ep.




Same thing now again, any questions, just reply or gimme a PM!

Bigmoomma
11-07-2008, 08:18 AM
I was in an EPGP system for a few months and it has its pros and cons. The more static your raid is, the more each player contributes, the better it works. In a perfect world, if you had 25 people working together and putting in equal effort, it would be as good a system as you could ask for. Everyone will get loot and no one can skip loot now to hoard for the future as effectively as with a ZS DKP system or a straight DKP system.

I speak from experience in saying that it is pretty harsh to people who take items they later regret...it cycles through priority quickly and taking an item knocks you out. If you have a solid, low turnover raid, its going to someone who will help you out and contribute to your success.

Wow, I wrote 3 paragraphs of nothing. Grats me.


I can do nothing but agree with this somewhat rambling post.

The more static your raid group is the better the system works. I've been in two guilds that used the EPGP system, and it worked awesomly in one and terrible in another. In both guilds I was responsible for decay / administration of the system so I was positive it was getting opperated under the same standards.

The issue I found with EPGP is that the decay is too quick. While I want to encourage people to spend their points and not horde it is easy to accumulate EP, and easy to discard GP. This resulted in people abusing the system by 'spiking' attendance. One week on, one week off, or two weeks on two weeks off. This would fully decay their GP as your GP DOES decay wether or not you show up (unless you manually decay the system which we considered doing but cripes that worked out to a LOT of administration and math going through every guild members and working out what their effective EP / GP loss / gain was every day). The fact that the system decays as a whole wether or not you are there is the only flaw. You dont want it to NOT decay because that is the entire perk of the system, the diminishing returns on stacking EP. However, decaying GP on people that are not activly participating in your guild is an issue.

If your guild has ANY casuals or people that do not invest 100% / have extreme loyalty to the guild I do not suggest this system. However, in a perfect world / modeling system this is great.

EPGP is the communisim of loot systems. Works great on paper but have fun locating an actual group it worked with in a normal situation (10 points to the person who points out the society that activly lives under a communist society and is the only successful society to do so at net profit). The EPGP system is fantastic, however, I would suggest running it alongside whatever loot system you're running in a 'simulated' way watching the numbers and taking a few nights a week for a month or so before implimenting it for your guild. It is a fantastic system, but it's not for everyone. It works extremely well for very dedicated people, or very casual guilds, but in either of those guilds it plays to the advantage of the people who are in the middle.

All of that being said - dont be afraid to explore. It's just purples!!! :D While it's important that loot gets where it needs to be for progression your loot system, while directly effecting it, will have little influence on that. Your most dedicated raiders under every system will be rewarded.

Riskvikk
11-07-2008, 08:27 AM
Agreed bigmomma, there're flaws in the epgp system, and you got to form the decay anmount and the rewards wisely and according to your own guildrules. If you do this, I can tell you that EPGP system is working rather perfect.

But still, using the word flawless and loot system in the same wall of text is blasphemy tbh. There are no flawless loot systems, and there'll never be any.

Gimme a flawless loot system and i'll show you a pig that can fly ;D

Satrina
11-07-2008, 08:35 AM
ClownPoints 2.0

Coles Notes
1) You earn Effort Points (EP) for attending raids, killing bosses, and maybe things outside of those.

2) You earn Gear Points (GP) for winning loot.

3) You have a priority (PR) equal to EP/(GP + 100)

4) When a piece of loot is bid, the person with the highest PR wins, subject to the usual alt/recruit/main division.

That's it!


Introduction
ClownPoints 2.0 is based on the EPGP loot system. EPGP is based on the concept of Effort Points and Gear Points. Effort Points quantify the effort each member put towards the guild's goals and Gear Points quantify what each member gets back in return. Loot priority is computed as the quotient of the two: priority (PR) is equal to EP/GP. EPGP is by definition self balancing since priority (and hence chance to receive loot) is proportional to the effort you put and inversely proportional to the rewards you've gotten.

Simply, after all the bidders have bid their priority is calculated from their EP and GP, and the person with the highest priority wins the item, subject to member/recruit/alt tiers.

Effort Points
EP are awarded for the following:

- 25 EP for being in the raid or on the waitlist 60 seconds after raid tracking starts
- 25 EP for being in the raid or on the waitlist when raid tracking is closed
- 30 EP bonus for getting both of the above awards
- 20 EP for being in the raid or on the waitlist at half time
- 2 EP every five minutes that you are in the raid or on the waitlist
- 10 EP for a failed attempt at an as-yet undefeated boss
- 25 EP for killing a non-trivial boss
- 10 EP for killing a trivial boss
- 200 EP bonus for the first kill of a boss
- EP may be granted at team officer discretion for other service to the guild

If you don't remove yourself from the waitlist when you log off for the night, you will get zero EP for the night.

Penalties (either -EP or +GP) may be applied against people who do dumb shit. <example list to follow>

Gear Points
GP are gained for the following:

- Receiving loot in a raid
- Other things that may arise that don't cause administrative headaches

EP and GP Decay
Effort Points and Gear Points decay over time. The rate of decay is 5% per raid. That is, for every raid that is entered into ClownPoints, every member in the system loses 5% of their current EP and GP.

Mainspec, Offspec, Minimum EP, Base GP
As always, bid on anything that you would use.

We retain the concept of mainspec and offspec bids, and as usual an offspec bid costs 1/4 points (gear points in this case.) Bids are classed into 3 tiers, where members take precedence over recruits who take precedence over any alts in the raid. Mainspec bids always take precedence to offspec bids.

<chart showing priorities here>

In addition to this, there are EP minimums that apply to members. If you have under 1600EP, you will count as a recruit for loot bids. If you have under 800EP, you will count as an alt for loot bids. As your EP increases, you will automatically bump tiers. Minimums do not apply to recruits. Note that EP minimums replace the old 60% attendance minimum.

Base GP
When calculating individual PR for bidders on an item, a base of 100GP will be added to your actual GP. That is PR = EP/(100+GP). This prevents people with zero GP from getting an artificially high priority.

GP Values
BidMaster will display the appropriate mainspec and offspec GP costs for items being bid. The gear point cost of items is calculated as GP = itemLevel x slot value

Slot values
1.00 Head, Chest, Legs, 2H Weapon
0.80 Shoulder, Hands, Waist, Feet
0.70 Trinket
0.60 Wrist, Neck, Back, Finger, Off-hand, Shield
0.50 1H Weapon, Ranged Weapon, Wand

Satrina
11-07-2008, 08:39 AM
Implications of the system as we've implemented:

1- EPs favor attendance AND punctuality both

2- If you don't remove yourself from the waitlist when you log off for the night, you will get zero EP for the night. No more cheating the system.

3- Since GPs decay with time, it means the faster you can get an upgrade, on the long run, the higher your PR stays. I.E. Items dropped during the first 2 weeks in Naxx25 will have next to no impact on your PR when we hit the next 25-man when compared to last minute items before a tier switch. Makes sense since we want people to get upgrades FASTER.

4- A typical 5-bosses raid will net ~260 points (like Hyjal: 4 trivial bosses and one non-trivial boss). An item from our first 25-man will cost between 213 and 106.5 GPs. As we heard so many times already, spend those effing points!

5- If a raider is in the raid from start to finish, he will get a minimum of ~198 points.

4 hours = 48 5-minutes parts = 98 presence EPs
Punctuality, halftime, closing and bonus = 100 EPs
Add to this number 10 points per boss attempt or trivial kills.

As you can see, points go will go up FAST.

6- A member logging in at 9:30, waitlisting, playing for an hour and logging off would gain 44 EPS + boss attempts/kills. 49 if he/she plays for an hour from the start. 49 for the last hour of raid time. The system rewards our most hardcore members more.

7- Using the 1/10th rule, our dkp hoarding members will only have ~ one raid worth of EPs more than our more active looters.

8- Using a 5% decay rate, some fun facts:
a) at 4000 EPs, you will lose 200 EPs per raid, nullifying the presence and time bonii.
b) Takes 14 raids without looting anything to half your GPs
c) EP value should stagnate at ~6000 for a perfect raider

Satrina
11-07-2008, 08:41 AM
Here's a model of EP over 60 raids. 100% attendance for the first 10 raids, then two weeks vacation (8 raids), then 11 more raids at 100% attendance, then fade away into the sunset (quit):


raid start decay earned finish
1 0.00 0.00 181.32 181.32
2 181.32 9.07 156.32 328.57
3 328.57 16.43 168.32 480.46
4 480.46 24.02 200.32 656.75
5 656.75 32.84 205.32 829.23
6 829.23 41.46 167.32 955.09
7 955.09 47.75 194.32 1101.65
8 1101.65 55.08 157.32 1203.89
9 1203.89 60.19 211.32 1355.01
10 1355.01 67.75 160.32 1447.58
11 1447.58 72.38 0.00 1375.20
12 1375.20 68.76 0.00 1306.44
13 1306.44 65.32 0.00 1241.12
14 1241.12 62.06 0.00 1179.06
15 1179.06 58.95 0.00 1120.11
16 1120.11 56.01 0.00 1064.10
17 1064.10 53.21 0.00 1010.90
18 1010.90 50.54 0.00 960.35
19 960.35 48.02 212.32 1124.65
20 1124.65 56.23 242.32 1310.74
21 1310.74 65.54 195.32 1440.52
22 1440.52 72.03 212.32 1580.81
23 1580.81 79.04 244.32 1746.09
24 1746.09 87.30 186.32 1845.10
25 1845.10 92.26 173.32 1926.17
26 1926.17 96.31 211.32 2041.17
27 2041.17 102.06 172.32 2111.43
28 2111.43 105.57 212.32 2218.18
29 2218.18 110.91 239.32 2346.59
30 2346.59 117.33 0.00 2229.26
31 2229.26 111.46 0.00 2117.80
32 2117.80 105.89 0.00 2011.91
33 2011.91 100.60 0.00 1911.31
34 1911.31 95.57 0.00 1815.75
35 1815.75 90.79 0.00 1724.96
36 1724.96 86.25 0.00 1638.71
37 1638.71 81.94 0.00 1556.78
38 1556.78 77.84 0.00 1478.94
39 1478.94 73.95 0.00 1404.99
40 1404.99 70.25 0.00 1334.74
41 1334.74 66.74 0.00 1268.00
42 1268.00 63.40 0.00 1204.60
43 1204.60 60.23 0.00 1144.37
44 1144.37 57.22 0.00 1087.15
45 1087.15 54.36 0.00 1032.80
46 1032.80 51.64 0.00 981.16
47 981.16 49.06 0.00 932.10
48 932.10 46.60 0.00 885.49
49 885.49 44.27 0.00 841.22
50 841.22 42.06 0.00 799.16
51 799.16 39.96 0.00 759.20
52 759.20 37.96 0.00 721.24
53 721.24 36.06 0.00 685.18
54 685.18 34.26 0.00 650.92
55 650.92 32.55 0.00 618.37
56 618.37 30.92 0.00 587.45
57 587.45 29.37 0.00 558.08
58 558.08 27.90 0.00 530.18
59 530.18 26.51 0.00 503.67
60 503.67 25.18 0.00 478.49

These may be a bit higher than we'll see at the beginning since it assumes boss kills for the most part. The 1600/800 minimums are estimates now. They may get adjusted once we see what the reality of how many EP raids are generating is.

It works out that coming back from retirement will take 8-10 raids if you got to zero, less if you had extended AFK that didn't take you to zero. We might just immediately zero the EP of people who retire to prevent shenanigans, or set retirees to a higher decay rate - not decided yet

Satrina
11-07-2008, 08:43 AM
Examples
Here we'll follow the progress of Monkeynutz and Irkubb as the guild raids. (these are extracts from a model I ran of the system)

First Raid
Going into the first raid, people only have the pre-seeded EP from the old ClownPoints (see <link>), and zero GP (which means 100GP with the seed value). Our heroes standings are:

Monkeynutz: 30 EP, 0 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 0.3
Irkubb: 5 EP, 0 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 0.05

During the first raid, an item drops that Monkeynutz is interested in, and by happy chance his ratio of 0.3 is enough to win. Monkeynutz is charged 275GP for the item. The raid was worth 246 EP.

Second Raid
Going into the second raid, everyone's current EP and GP are diminished by 5%, and add the numbers from the first raid. Our heroes standings are:

Monkeynutz: 274.5 EP, 275 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 0.732
Irkubb: 250.75 EP, 0 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 2.507

In the second raid, an item drops that Irkubb is interested in, but someone else's PR was higher, so he gets none. The raid was worth 225 EP.

Third Raid
Going into the third raid, everyone's current EP and GP are diminished by 5%, and add the numbers from the first raid. Our heroes standings are:

Monkeynutz: 485.775 EP, 261.25 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 1.345
Irkubb: 463.212 EP, 0 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 4.632

In the third raid, another item drops that Irkubb is interested in, and he wins it for 250 GP. An item that Monkeynutz was interested in also dropped, but someone else had a higher PR. The raid was worth 265 EP.


Fourth Raid
Going into the fourth raid, everyone's current EP and GP are diminished by 5%, and add the numbers from the first raid. Our heroes standings are:

Monkeynutz: 726.486 EP, 248.187 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 2.086
Irkubb: 705.052 EP, 250 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 2.014

And so on down the raids...

80th Raid
Going into the 80th raid, our heroes standings are:

Monkeynutz: 71 raids attended, 10 items bought.
3061 EP, 450 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 5.560

Irkubb: 70 raids attended, 8 items bought.
2763 EP, 283 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 7.200

And more raids...

180th Raid
A new recruit joins the guild - Goombah. He'll be recruit status for the next 8 raids or so during the recruiting period, but as always this doesn't mean no loot - just that members take priority.

200th Raid
Monkeynutz: 180 raids attended, 26 items bought.
3883 EP, 743 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 4.603

Irkubb: 194 raids attended, 24 items bought.
4396 EP, 597 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 6.308

Let's see how Goombah fares at raid 200, only 20 raids since being recruited and 12 raids since becoming a member:

Goombah: 19 raids attended, 3 items bought.
2355 EP, 412 GP, PR = EP/(GP+100) = 4.600

Not bad!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As others have noted you need a pretty stable raiding core for this to work, which we do. All the modelling I've done is based on historical attendance numbers of members from our current system's database.

mero12513
11-07-2008, 09:27 AM
Wow! Thanks for the modeling Satrina. I'm liking the system more and more (having used it to decent effect in 1 guild already). My guild has a great core of raiders but a few people on the fringe. We'll probably give moderately higher rewards for standby status just to not discourage our fringe people who may or may not be on. Sometimes we have to bring in guild friends, and other times we have to sit 10 people.

I thought I heard about this somewhere but I haven't been able to find it: has anyone come across or built an addon that will track EPGP anywhere outside of officer notes?

Lavache
11-07-2008, 09:37 AM
(10 points to the person who points out the society that activly lives under a communist society and is the only successful society to do so at net profit).

china, laos, korea, cuba and vietnam are all communist countries, i believe china is the only one to actually make a net profit. they have the highest GDP by a factor of two or three.

Shadevarr
11-07-2008, 10:08 AM
We are just going to continue using our normal DKP system. 1 for attendance, 1 for staying 'til the end of the raid and 1 for progression kill (2 if one shot). This does promote attendance since missing one week of raids puts you significantly lower. As far as inactives coming back, their not as well geared and not used to our raiding group anymore so they have the lowest priority on invites.

Everyone in our guild knows this and consider it fair. Benefit, we don't have people intentionally missing any raids.

Lizana
11-07-2008, 10:42 AM
To everyone saying just /roll in 10 mans. Why? You realize that with just doing 10 mans you will be able to progress all the way to the top tier raiding. To me doing a /roll for t9 lvl gear doest make much sense. While its true the Upgraded version of the gear will drop in the 25 man, there isnt a "Huge" diffrence in the gear, ie a player geared in 10 man t7 is supposed to be effective in 25 man t8.

Prunetracy
11-07-2008, 03:28 PM
Wow, Satrina. That information is awesome. I've really been interested in how EPGP works out over time, and also interested in what specific EP, GP, and decay values work and how they play out.

Thanks!

My only question is: How do you track it? We have a multi-guild raid group, so the EPGP addon is not an option (and frankly, I want the information to be visible to everyone in the guild in a transparent way anyhow).

Riskvikk
11-07-2008, 08:14 PM
To everyone saying just /roll in 10 mans. Why? You realize that with just doing 10 mans you will be able to progress all the way to the top tier raiding. To me doing a /roll for t9 lvl gear doest make much sense. While its true the Upgraded version of the gear will drop in the 25 man, there isnt a "Huge" diffrence in the gear, ie a player geared in 10 man t7 is supposed to be effective in 25 man t8.


Well, my answer to that is pretty simple, as for my guild, we're not planning to have any 10 man instances on our raid schedule, we're gonna put all our effort and time into 25 man progress. 10 man will be something you can do off raid time, for example on weekends, and alot of people that are raiding are pretty limited to the raiding times, and attends 100% on the scheduled raids, but don't have much time on weekends to put in into WoW, at least not planned time on weekends. They shouldn't suffer from not getting the DKP/EP that the people who actually can attend on weekends all the time get.

Satrina
11-07-2008, 09:14 PM
My only question is: How do you track it? We have a multi-guild raid group, so the EPGP addon is not an option (and frankly, I want the information to be visible to everyone in the guild in a transparent way anyhow).

We only ever bring guild members to raids. I have a custom addon for our guild for raid tracking already - it'll be modified to track the EPGP data as the raid goes, as will the loot addon I wrote for the guild. Offline, I will be building a database to store EPGP data and some PHP pages to display the current standings, then a custom application for reading the tracking data from the raid tracker's saved variables and updating the database automagically.

Lizana: Exactly what Riskvikk said. One of the main reasons for us using EPGP is that you are only shooting yourself in the foot by thinking "It's not worth upgrading my ilevel 200 helm to the ilevel 213 helm". Yeah, you got the level 200 helm for free in a 10 man, but the points you don't spend on the ilevel 213 helm will most likely decay away if you don't to use them. The system works best in your favour if you use your points.

Bigmoomma
11-07-2008, 09:19 PM
china, laos, korea, cuba and vietnam are all communist countries, i believe china is the only one to actually make a net profit. they have the highest GDP by a factor of two or three.

The country as a whole has not had a net profit since. Anually sure, but not a day 1-X scale. Also, a hint, it's not a country.

orcstar
11-08-2008, 01:54 AM
.... The fact that the system decays as a whole wether or not you are there is the only flaw. You dont want it to NOT decay because that is the entire perk of the system, the diminishing returns on stacking EP. However, decaying GP on people that are not activly participating in your guild is an issue...
The obvious question springs to mind, why not decay the GP only for people participating?
Decay EP every raid, decay GP for the people that show up.

Klimpen
11-08-2008, 04:08 AM
I'm seriously looking at running a 10man raiding guild with irl friends for WotLK.

I'm leaning towards a simple /random 1000; Main Spec>Off; Main>Alt.

Anyone able to give insight into what kind of dramas that might come along? I've got a feeling that 'more than his fair share' might happen. Other than talking to each member in advance, what'd be the best way to counter that, in advance? Also other problems that people have had, would be appreciated a lot.

I'm not so much going for a proactive management style. More I'm trying to be prepared for every eventuality.

AoDraka
11-08-2008, 09:15 AM
While I like the theory of this system, I don't think it'll work very well in my very large casual guild that has roughly 35-40 people coming in and out of "Regular raid attendace". For the most part our tanks and healers are the same, but we have some flaky DPSers that don't show, take long breaks, etc. While I like the fact that people who show up and have very high attendance are "rewarded" most, one of our guild mottos is "Real life comes first", so the decay would certainly penalize people who are forced to take breaks.

Bigmoomma
11-09-2008, 11:43 AM
The obvious question springs to mind, why not decay the GP only for people participating?
Decay EP every raid, decay GP for the people that show up.

The reason is because that is HUGE administration. I did that for my guild for a short while and it entailed about 2 hours of number crunching each night for DKP for the people who showed up / waitlisted.

Not

Fun.

It would be an ideal system if that were the case however, but someone would need to design an addon that could determine the difference and decay them appropriatly. Manual decaying on that large of a scale when you're doing it for an entire guild is a LOT of work - trust me. ESPECIALLY when you get some disgruntled DPS that is QQing that they think their EP / GP is wrong and has / hasn't been decayed and it takes another 2 hours in vent explaining it to them, going back over the notes, and proving through screenshots that you know what you're doing and are not screwing them out of loot - People get VERY touchy about loot and as soon as an individual takes care of manually decaying things like that, accidents are prone to happen - and even more so, people will THINK accidents are prone to happen, wether or not they are or are not.

Tenraiel
11-09-2008, 12:05 PM
We use EPGP and I love it. We decay points once a week, so it takes longer for you to really alter your score ... ie: inactives. Also, to combat when we get new raiders to our team, there is a minimum EP required before you're allowed to bid on anything.

Prunetracy
11-09-2008, 03:01 PM
There are a lot of people in this thread using EPGP. Do you all use the EPGP addon to manage it?

I can't imagine having a loot system where the raid cannot see their values easily, or look at drop history, or how things are calculated. It would be extremely easy for an officer to go into the officer notes and change values and no one would be the wiser for it.

I feel like transparency is a very important principal for a loot system, people need to be able to see how it works so they feel assured they're not getting screwed.

I'd really like to institute EPGP in my raid group, but we need a good way to both track it and display it. There are so many tools out there for DKP type systems that make it much easier to manage. That's the only reason we've gone with those systems in the past.

If anyone knows of a webapp or an addon that is designed to work with EPGP, I'd love to hear about it. Even a webapp that could take a CTRT string and convert everything for an EPGP system would be fine.

Tenraiel
11-09-2008, 06:03 PM
I don't do our system, I just benefit from it. However, our system is posted on our website all the time, we keep track of it and can see all gains and depreciation that happens. We use guildlaunch and it has some sort of built in function for tracking dkp, epgp and other stuff.

Ukk
11-09-2008, 06:05 PM
From what I have read EPGP seems to only work if the whole guild uses it - but is there any way to just use it for a sub-set within a guild? In other words, in my large casual guild that likes to run 25 mans on the weekends, I would like to run a 10-man during the week. Can I keep a separate EPGP system for the 10-man raid group, separate from the 25?

Tenraiel
11-10-2008, 08:45 AM
Sorry for a slow response, but I asked around in guild, and yes, you can track raids independently of one another.

Durendall
11-12-2008, 04:43 AM
We have used and will continue to use a free-roll system. We also have officer-intervention in some cases, but yeah. We don't like DKP as it has caused a lot of issues for a bunch of us in previous guilds, and while it does most definitely work for tons of other guilds out there... it just doesn't fit us.


Our free-roll system goes off of a priority list, which is pretty much as follows:

Main toon with Main spec (With Member+ status) > Main toon with Off spec / Alts (Both with Member+ status) > Initiate


This way, what spec benefits the raid on your key toon can freely roll on something... but Alts/Offspecs don't totally get the shaft. Our Initiate period lasts 2 weeks and 4 raids... whichever comes last. This is a fairly recent addition to the rules as we were having issues with new people joining, getting a nice piece and then dropping without warning. Pretty awesome tbh.


Now... the priority system does change some as the raid happens. We have a one epic per night rule as well. This excludes Tier tokens so that people aren't afraid to roll on "trash boss loot" drops just because they think they may not be able to roll on the upcoming token from the next boss. So in essence it is a 1 epic + 1 tier token per night before your priority drops down to that of an Initiate. This has helped us still spread the loot-love around some, which is typically the arguement behind using a DKP system so that it is not the same 3 people that have lucky dice winning everything.


Our system is definitely not for everyone though... a lot of guilds are better off with DKP I am sure, I just get disgusted with trying to use those systems... especially under the banner of a "casual raiding guild."

Caulle
11-12-2008, 06:52 AM
Here's a model of EP over 60 raids. 100% attendance for the first 10 raids, then two weeks vacation (8 raids), then 11 more raids at 100% attendance, then fade away into the sunset (quit):


raid start decay earned finish
1 0.00 0.00 181.32 181.32
2 181.32 9.07 156.32 328.57
3 328.57 16.43 168.32 480.46
4 480.46 24.02 200.32 656.75
5 656.75 32.84 205.32 829.23
6 829.23 41.46 167.32 955.09
7 955.09 47.75 194.32 1101.65
8 1101.65 55.08 157.32 1203.89
9 1203.89 60.19 211.32 1355.01
10 1355.01 67.75 160.32 1447.58
11 1447.58 72.38 0.00 1375.20
12 1375.20 68.76 0.00 1306.44
13 1306.44 65.32 0.00 1241.12
14 1241.12 62.06 0.00 1179.06
15 1179.06 58.95 0.00 1120.11
16 1120.11 56.01 0.00 1064.10
17 1064.10 53.21 0.00 1010.90
18 1010.90 50.54 0.00 960.35
19 960.35 48.02 212.32 1124.65
20 1124.65 56.23 242.32 1310.74
21 1310.74 65.54 195.32 1440.52
22 1440.52 72.03 212.32 1580.81
23 1580.81 79.04 244.32 1746.09
24 1746.09 87.30 186.32 1845.10
25 1845.10 92.26 173.32 1926.17
26 1926.17 96.31 211.32 2041.17
27 2041.17 102.06 172.32 2111.43
28 2111.43 105.57 212.32 2218.18
29 2218.18 110.91 239.32 2346.59
30 2346.59 117.33 0.00 2229.26
31 2229.26 111.46 0.00 2117.80
32 2117.80 105.89 0.00 2011.91
33 2011.91 100.60 0.00 1911.31
34 1911.31 95.57 0.00 1815.75
35 1815.75 90.79 0.00 1724.96
36 1724.96 86.25 0.00 1638.71
37 1638.71 81.94 0.00 1556.78
38 1556.78 77.84 0.00 1478.94
39 1478.94 73.95 0.00 1404.99
40 1404.99 70.25 0.00 1334.74
41 1334.74 66.74 0.00 1268.00
42 1268.00 63.40 0.00 1204.60
43 1204.60 60.23 0.00 1144.37
44 1144.37 57.22 0.00 1087.15
45 1087.15 54.36 0.00 1032.80
46 1032.80 51.64 0.00 981.16
47 981.16 49.06 0.00 932.10
48 932.10 46.60 0.00 885.49
49 885.49 44.27 0.00 841.22
50 841.22 42.06 0.00 799.16
51 799.16 39.96 0.00 759.20
52 759.20 37.96 0.00 721.24
53 721.24 36.06 0.00 685.18
54 685.18 34.26 0.00 650.92
55 650.92 32.55 0.00 618.37
56 618.37 30.92 0.00 587.45
57 587.45 29.37 0.00 558.08
58 558.08 27.90 0.00 530.18
59 530.18 26.51 0.00 503.67
60 503.67 25.18 0.00 478.49

These may be a bit higher than we'll see at the beginning since it assumes boss kills for the most part. The 1600/800 minimums are estimates now. They may get adjusted once we see what the reality of how many EP raids are generating is.

It works out that coming back from retirement will take 8-10 raids if you got to zero, less if you had extended AFK that didn't take you to zero. We might just immediately zero the EP of people who retire to prevent shenanigans, or set retirees to a higher decay rate - not decided yet

Quick question, as I've never used a decay system before... What happens to players who are in the negatives? I assume no change, but I just wanted to make sure.

phaze
11-12-2008, 09:36 AM
We have used and will continue to use a free-roll system. We also have officer-intervention in some cases, but yeah. We don't like DKP

By tracking item awards and attendance, you're assigning values and therefore using a point system; it's just not through the usual "kill boss for points" mechanic. So don't rant too much on the evils of point-based systems just yet! ;)

I think your main complaint is towards basic, set-value DKP and the inflation that comes from using it (leading to 'rich' players having a permanent priority on contested drops). This is adjustable/fixable in several ways, as discussed here via EPGP, and in other systems such as zero-sum, etc.

Satrina
11-12-2008, 10:32 AM
Quick question, as I've never used a decay system before... What happens to players who are in the negatives? I assume no change, but I just wanted to make sure.

You can't go negative in EPGP, the limit tends to zero.

You earn effort points (EP) for doing stuff in raids, and earn gear points (GP) for buying items. The person who wins a given item is the one whose ratio of EP/GP is the highest. Decay can never bring you negative since it's just EP = EP * 0.95 and GP = GP * 0.95 (or whatever decay rate you choose)

Durendall
11-13-2008, 03:41 AM
By tracking item awards and attendance, you're assigning values and therefore using a point system; it's just not through the usual "kill boss for points" mechanic. So don't rant too much on the evils of point-based systems just yet! ;)

I think your main complaint is towards basic, set-value DKP and the inflation that comes from using it (leading to 'rich' players having a permanent priority on contested drops). This is adjustable/fixable in several ways, as discussed here via EPGP, and in other systems such as zero-sum, etc.


I can see your argument there. I don't really view "pure" DKP setups as being "evil" per se. It is just that our raiding attendance is constantly fluctuating... literally on a nightly basis. We have a lot of members that don't have set work schedules... some have to work on call sometimes... that sort of deal. I am sure that that is not much different from a lot of guilds that run DKP successfully, but when we tried it we all just got so irritated with everything (items getting sharded repeatedly because people were pooling points, etc) we just said "screw it."

We used EPGP in one of our past guilds... and honestly ended up not being a fan of it at all. It may have been how it was handled on the "personal" side of things, but yeah.

I salute those of you that are able to get DKP up and running successfully, it can be a nice asset in order to take the human side of things out of the equation more. I just wanted to present an alternate method for anyone wondering how a fair verson of a free roll system would work, as I know some guilds simply do a straight free roll where anyone can roll on anything they want as many times per night as they feel like it, and let them get away with it.

OfficeMax
01-24-2009, 08:21 AM
We've tried DKP and loot council, to date neither has worked that well for us.

What we have developed is a ranking system within our guild of Raider/Member/Recruit.

In 25 man raids if we down X boss and X piece of gear drops; we encourage everyone to check their gear and their neighbors (Sounds like this doesn't work; but when you have around 20 - 22 regulars each week people acutally care about each others gear and want to help out to progress) and then decide if they want to roll.

We let the raiders roll first. If no one needs it then we open it up to Members and finally down to recruits.

When you join the guild you have a 2 week window before you are a member. After that if you have been attending raids/decent performane and there is a spot open (Or another raider has been slacking in his current spot) usually within 1 week you will be moved up to raider status.

So far in this system we've lost two members; both who left before their 2 week recruit status period was up.

In a kiddish manner we think of this loot system like a self-cleaning oven for our guild to automatically weed out people there just for "Phat Epix" for minimal dedication to the guild =)

It has been working well; except for the fact that we are trying to figure out a way to encourage more people to work on attendance with progression raids. =/

Missing Thadduis/Sapphiron/4H/KThuzad - 25 Naxx
Missing Malygos - 25

Bodasafa
01-25-2009, 12:34 PM
We use SK (Suicide Kings) loot system.

Basically we have a list of every raider in the guild. New raiders get rolled in at the bottom. We use 2 different lists. One for Raid Gear and one for Tier Gear. When we down a boss the SKG master opens the correct list and links the item for bidding. If a member wants the item they whisper the word "bid" to the SKG master.

When a member wins a item they are then sucided to the bottom of the list and everyone on that list that is in the current raid moves up. This rewards active raiders because the only way to move up is if you are in a raid where loot is distributed. Having 2 lists help to make sure players do not stagnate on the list waiting for that "be all" tier upgrade. This ensures players are taking upgrades and not hindering there gearing by holding off for one item. Raiders not in the raid retain their position and everyone that is in the raid move up around them.

Overall this works well for us. It evenly gears the active raiders and as a whole gears the guild in an efficient manner.

Kelias
02-09-2009, 01:25 PM
Is there a way to manage that in game with an addon?

phaze
02-09-2009, 03:22 PM
Is there a way to manage that in game with an addon?

Suicide Kings (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/suicide-kings.aspx)

Guthammer
02-10-2009, 02:53 PM
I have to say I have done some raiding under SK and loath it. I don' t know if I have a good reason for that, but I found it deeply frustrating--particularly on things like set pieces and AQ loots.

This is LO's system:

This system was rolled out in BC and tweaked slightly in Wrath. Best I have found yet.

Points

Leftovers uses a points system to reward attendance and award loot. It's not really something worth a ton of thought unless you enjoy math theory, though. For your first raid, just roll Standard for pieces you want and come along for the ride. So much loot gets given out to newbies that we have a phrase you may hear: "Welcome to LO, here's your purples."

For future reference, here's the basics of points. You earn points for time spent (1 per half hour), and extra points for being there at scheduled raid start and raid end. When loot drops, you may spend points three ways:

- Shroud: "I really, really want this." You pay 1/2 your points. If several people really, really want the item, the one with the most points wins. You may only roll this if you have more than 10 points (what you earn in one 3 hour raid).
- Standard: "I want this, but if someone else really, really wants it, give it to them." You pay only 10 points and take your chances by rolling off /random 100 against everyone else who rolled Standard, whether they have more points than you not. Shroud trumps Standard. This means that a Shrouder with 20 points will beat a Standard roller who has 100 points.
- Save: "I can use it, for an off-set, or for an alt. But I don't wanna take it from someone that really needs it." 10 points as well.

Shadevarr
02-11-2009, 12:25 PM
Our straight DKP system seems to be holding steady so far, it goes a bit into our invite policy and raider rank.

raider rank is given to people who wish to raid 2+ nights a week, they get priority at invite time over members/initiates.
invites are managed through group calendar, if your not on I assume your not coming.

1 DKP is given out at beginning and end of raid.
1 DKP for progression kills.
1 DKP for new achievements.
1 DKP for special goals.

Bidding has 3 tiers. main, then offspec/offarmor, then a /roll for zero dkp.


So far this system has come within +/- 10% of zero sum every week without having complicated mechanics to it. We have tried many other loot systems and this has proven to be almost brutally fair. Honestly, I had people complain about it being too fair :)

Akriel
02-20-2009, 06:18 AM
With a larger raid pool how can you combat intermittent raiders from getting very favorable ratios?

IE. we have 20 mostly regular raiders, and another 20 less regular raiders who will generally fill the five remaining slots.

the 20 less regular raiders will (because of decay) end with much more favorable ratios ( 1 EP will be worth more because they will tend to be at minimums ) while those 20 who raid regularly will generally not be at minimums.

Is this all in the decay rate? I guess I need to write a simulator to see the effects for sure, unless you could possibly post your simulator for use?

phaze
02-20-2009, 12:37 PM
Is this all in the decay rate?

Yes, that's the point of decay: so your long-time members can't permanently shut out new attendees or intermittent attendees.

It's a tax on those with more points, to bring them in line. The amount of tax is variable, and up to each guild.

Akriel
02-23-2009, 05:11 AM
Yes, that's the point of decay: so your long-time members can't permanently shut out new attendees or intermittent attendees.

It's a tax on those with more points, to bring them in line. The amount of tax is variable, and up to each guild.

I understand that, but it seems that intermediate raiders are rewarded for being... intermediate, because their EP decays each night even if they are not there... resulting in each EP they receive being worth more.

The specific situation I'm worried about is someone raiding once every 2 weeks having the numbers work so they are priority for an item every raid they show up for.

phaze
02-23-2009, 06:05 AM
The specific situation I'm worried about is someone raiding once every 2 weeks having the numbers work so they are priority for an item every raid they show up for.

As mentioned earlier by Satrina, you can tune your EP/GP offsets however you want, to best fit what works for your guild (for example, Sat's guild using GP+100). Adjust it to the level you want, so that your core raiders get sufficient priority, while your non-core raiders aren't locked out of upgrades.

greendragonempire
02-23-2009, 06:43 AM
The major flaw in this EGEP is that

1. it doesn't work well for semi-hardcore raid guilds with turnover, which is like 90% of the guilds

2. if your raid is static enough it would be easier to loot council everything and people would gear up very quickly regardless

phaze
02-23-2009, 08:17 AM
1. it doesn't work well for semi-hardcore raid guilds with turnover, which is like 90% of the guilds

You can set up EP/GP parameters to best fit your individual guild. Sat's setup is for a low-turnover group, so of course it matches that approach well. If you want a different approach, then you can change some of the values to better work for your guild.



2. if your raid is static enough it would be easier to loot council everything and people would gear up very quickly regardless
Random is even easier.

As always: use the system that works best for your guild. Some guilds aren't comfortable with Loot Council, some aren't comfortable with strict DKP, some don't like bidding systems, some don't like /random. The trick is finding what your guildmembers can tolerate/approve.

baldeagle
03-10-2009, 07:01 AM
After reading this entire thread I still do not see a post regarding an addon that has been developed to manage the EPGP system, other than the one custom designed by Satrina for their guild. Does anyone know of an addon that can make administration of this simple? I like what I read about the system's flexibility, but the idea of manually tracking everything outside of the game is a deal breaker for me.

What I would like to see is one that allows you to specify your rate of decay, adjust the GP minimum (i.e. actual GP +100 automatically calculated by the addon), allow you to specify EP settings for boss kills, attendance, etc, and do all this in game on the fly. In addition, to be able to export it all to our guild website would be huge, and we also use guildlaunch.

Does such an addon exist? I greatly appreciate any replies with what you are using.

Berzerker
03-10-2009, 01:35 PM
epgp - Google Code (http://code.google.com/p/epgp/)

In-game addon for tracking the points. It uses guild officer notes, which makes it useless for cross-guild alliance runs, or if you want to make scores visible outside of the game. Not to mention potential issues from manually editting notes, etc.

It's the only publicly accessible addon I know for tracking EPGP though.

Bodasafa
03-11-2009, 02:22 PM
I have to say I have done some raiding under SK and loath it. I don' t know if I have a good reason for that, but I found it deeply frustrating--particularly on things like set pieces and AQ loots.


I am curious as to why? Could you explain further if you don't mind. Being a raid lead and officer that uses this system I would like to get a jump on any possible issues that may arise.

As a side note we have run all the current content in wrath and all of BC with this system and have not had a single issue.

phaze
03-11-2009, 05:08 PM
Being a raid lead and officer that uses this system I would like to get a jump on any possible issues that may arise.


My personal issue with SK is that it does not allow an individual to assign a weight per item. You go to the back of the line regardless if the item is a meager upgrade (yay a slightly better ring!) or a massive boost (go go weapon DPS jumps!). In the situations where I've attended raids using SK, players tend to just hoard their spot for the one item they're waiting for, and don't choose valid upgrades because it conflicts with their goal of that one particular item.

Whether or not this is a bad thing is up to your guild. If some players are holding out for their big-ticket item, then others farther down on the totem pole are cleaning up on the bargain shopping (moving to the back of the line when you're already near the back = almost no penalty). That's just the nature of how SK encourages people to spend, since it's basically an All-In bidding points system.

Now if your guild has no issues with this: great! SK is a very simple system to administrate, so that's a win/win for you. But if you want individual valuations on items, then another system would be the way to go.

Bodasafa
03-13-2009, 01:26 PM
We have a rule in place regarding "camping" or "position perching" the lists. Basically it says that yes people have earned their position by attending raids and it is their choice on how to use it, but not at the cost of upgrades, which up their performance and thus benefit the raid as a whole.

The old saying is an upgrade is an upgrade and we enforce that. With only 25 people if you raid on a regular basis so much loot drops that your back on top anyway in a short amount of time.

Warspirit
03-14-2009, 12:14 PM
Our guild has used EPGP for a long time and it really works well. However, we are seeing right now that things are a bit inflated since LK launched. For some reason the point values on items went down. We initially thought it wouldn't hurt things much because a ratio is a ratio. But what we are seeing is it's inflated enough that some people are getting 4-5 itmes in a row over people that raid just as much.

Most of what is inflating things is that we are clearing Naxx in a single night, which is 15 boss awards vs. maybe the 4-5 we saw per night in BC. Progression has been MUCH faster as well. So if someone misses even one night they are hosed for quit a while. We DO want it to hurt a bit if you miss a night, but not to the point of someone getting 5 pieces of loot before you.

This is not the system breaking, this is our parameters breaking. We are in the process of adjusting our point values and decay % to match our current raiding. We are actually thinking of going to a straight time award with maybe some bonus points for progression nights. This would ensure the 15 boss kill points per night thing doesn't happen again.

Also I want to point out something that has been a HUGE blessing for us. EPGPlootmaster (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/epgp_lootmaster.aspx). It absolutely freakin rocks and has givin us another 30+ mins of raid time. Loot distribution went from a tedious process of "Ok, main spec /w me bid now....ok, no one? No one?...ok, now offspec /w me bid now..." to a simple pop up for people to click on and be done. The LM sees a nice auto sorted list where he can click an a peson and assign loot.

EPGPlootmaster is so quick and painless, I popup the loot and within 1 min the rest of the raid is clearing trash while I assign loot to people. No talking about it, no confusion, no rolling/asking for different tiers. Just click a button for each piece and you're done.

If you use EPGP I highly recommend you check it out.