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View Full Version : warrior vs ret pally duel



Darksend
10-25-2008, 03:06 PM
3
2
1


repentence
zerker rage-> shield wall
HoJ -> every man for himself
Wings-> disarm
Bubble (which apparently removes disarm)
crit crit crit dead


14K damage through shield wall


discuss

Kazeyonoma
10-25-2008, 03:56 PM
you're mistake is disarming during wings.

You disarm after your low and you don't blow shield wall right away,

repentence
zerker rage -> hamstring
HoJ -> trinket
Wings -> Shield Slam -> Dispel Wings (qq paladin)
Bubble -> Shield wall, Shield Block, Last Stand, and hopefully you are using the commendation to which he gets dodged repeatedly.

Shock wave if the wings don't get dispelled, run like a mofo.

once his bubble and wings drop, devastate to 5 stack, and get ready for the hurt, shield slam, shock wave, revenge/dev/HS, conc blow, Shield Slam, revenge/dev/HS, Intimidating shout, shield Slam, revenge/dev/HS, pummel/shield bash heals, and execute when he's low.

GG ret paladin. I've rarely lost a 1 on 1 duel against a ret paladin, they mostly win my 2s because they are able to just omg wtf pwn my druid =( but with my new 0/8/53 spec, safeguard -> intervene -> disarm -> intercept stun, hamstring and my druid is off and alive =]

Darksend
10-25-2008, 05:39 PM
wow im stupid wings is shield slamable ? GG me.

and yea, i did not realize that bubble removed disarm either, HUGE MISTAKE on my part.

but still, i shield walled at 100%, i died with it still up, with 14K life thats 21K dmg with 10% from defensive stance thats 23K damage in under 12 seconds on plate (although i know holy damage doesnt get mitigated by armor only d-stance), and ret pallies keep telling themselves they are balanced.



OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

so apparently you can talent avenging wrath to ignore 50% mitigation, how does that multiply? 60% from shield wall, 60% from armor, 10% from defensive stance, does it make it 30% from shield wall 30% from armor and 5% from dstance or how does it multiply?

YucK
10-25-2008, 06:18 PM
You can also spell reflect his stun. Always helps a bunch.

Kazeyonoma
10-26-2008, 01:50 AM
no clue how that multiplier would work.

Ukyo
10-28-2008, 12:07 AM
it's been a while since i played so bare with me, but i think the mistake was that you disarmed him and then he used bubbles to react to your disarm, so you were screw'd for... 8 seconds if i remember correctly. You might wanna try using your shield wall as they use their bubble, but only instead of lurking around him... run like hell and gtf away from him and after the bubble use disarm.

velouriam
10-28-2008, 01:47 AM
Indeed. wait for shield wall and block during bubble. And yes, run like hell.

Magnuss
10-28-2008, 10:09 PM
Protop: Hit spell reflect every time its up. You with either reflect one of his megahuge holy hits, or his stun.

Protip: Save shield wall for the bubble and get AS MUCH DISTANCE AS YOU CAN. make him burn 5 of those 12 seconds running to you.

Protip: When he pops wings, he is going to pop his little aoe thing. Shield slam the wings off and stun to get him off OR spell reflect the aoe hit, they dont like that much.

Kininye
10-29-2008, 03:02 PM
I like ret pallies. For one they tend to be over confident now and think they can burst down any one. If I'm supposed to withstand anything as a tank, it's burst damage.

Regardless of their rotation, I save Berserker Rage for Repentance. I Disarm them right off the bat and watch them flop around. I run away a bit to bandage when they bubble. I Spell Reflect all the time. I Shield Slam dispell their wings. I try to save my stuns for after they're < 50% health UNLESS they've used their bubble; then I use them constantly.

I also love Imp Revenge - it owns melee classes and classes with melee pets. The Revenge stun (which is a talent based chance to proc), from what I can tell, is not affected by/does not affect diminishing returns from the other abilities that are guaranteed stuns (Charge, Shockwave, etc.). Sometimes I lock down meleers almoast as bad a rogue could do, I just can't do it as reliably.

Lore
10-29-2008, 03:37 PM
Protop: Hit spell reflect every time its up. You with either reflect one of his megahuge holy hits, or his stun.

Protip: Save shield wall for the bubble and get AS MUCH DISTANCE AS YOU CAN. make him burn 5 of those 12 seconds running to you.

Protip: When he pops wings, he is going to pop his little aoe thing. Shield slam the wings off and stun to get him off OR spell reflect the aoe hit, they dont like that much.

If by "little AOE thing" you mean Consecration, that's a terrible ret pally.

If by "little AOE thing" you mean Divine Storm, it's not spell reflectable.

(Neither is Consecration either, but that's still a bad ret pally)

EDIT: And yeah, stunlock him to either force the bubble or waste his wings.

Nicki
10-30-2008, 03:47 AM
If by "little AOE thing" you mean Consecration, that's a terrible ret pally.

If by "little AOE thing" you mean Divine Storm, it's not spell reflectable.

(Neither is Consecration either, but that's still a bad ret pally)

EDIT: And yeah, stunlock him to either force the bubble or waste his wings.


Little aoethingy does 250dps :p but no most ret paladins wont be using it in PvP anymore.

Raegis
10-30-2008, 10:00 AM
How can so much discussion go on about stunning Ret Pallys when the fact is that a good one will put on Blessing of Freedom immediately?

Kazeyonoma
10-30-2008, 10:07 AM
freedom doesn't prevent stuns.

Raegis
10-30-2008, 10:17 AM
I stand corrected, I will admit when I'm wrong. I knew pre-3.0 it didn't, but for some reason (and I have nooooo idea why) I was under the impression that 3.0 changed Hand of Freedom to take care of stuns as well.

In conclusion.... that means I have really really @#$@itty luck with my stuns landing on Pally's with HoF on.

Meeks
10-30-2008, 10:24 AM
I stand corrected, I will admit when I'm wrong. I knew pre-3.0 it didn't, but for some reason (and I have nooooo idea why) I was under the impression that 3.0 changed Hand of Freedom to take care of stuns as well.

In conclusion.... that means I have really really @#$@itty luck with my stuns landing on Pally's with HoF on.

Talented hof can remove stun retroactively but there is no immunity after it initially clears the stun.

To OP: And as has been said already keys to beating a ret pally are spell reflecting, shield slamming our important buffs off an dusing your cool downs smartly. Your mistake was letting him use his wings to cut through your shield wall...he was probably doing close to normal damage.

Plus ret seems to be designed to counter melee as we have no tools to take out ranged and we have several tools to cut through melee's defenses. Ret does have to be able to kill someone after all.

veneretio
10-30-2008, 10:24 AM
Perhaps you could start by telling us what spec you are...

Darksend
10-30-2008, 03:24 PM
3 things i did not know when starting this thread

1) bubble removes disarm
2) wings is shield slam offable
3) avenging wrath cuts through 50% of all mitigation when talented

velouriam
10-31-2008, 12:53 PM
I spent awhile yesterday dueling good ret pally friends of mine to try to see what tactics worked the best. In a one on one scenario, against an average ret pally...just nuke em. Stay above 35% even if it means using ur trinket to keep u up and prevent them from using hammer of wrath. I found in most scenarios, the pally wouldnt bubble thru disarm (disarm reduced his crits by only a couple hundred hp) knowing that he could bubble later when he needed to heal...so some well planned intercepts lands me some huge crits and finishes him off before he can bubble to heal. If he saves his bubble and gets it off...then shield wall/shield block and run. Us arms warriors can out dps pallies still, and if we can manipulate the bubble we will win.

Shadevarr
10-31-2008, 01:02 PM
I have yet to lose against a ret pally on my prot warrior.

reflect right off the bat, charge, shield block +block trinks, shield slam, conc blow, dev, dev, shockwave, shield slam and retadin should be dead.

If they get off a bubble just get a lot of range on them and wait. Lay of hands is irritating but if they are silenced from gag order it won't be too much of a problem. Between stuns and gag they die just like if they faced a mace specced rogue....

Lore
10-31-2008, 01:21 PM
Talented hof can remove stun retroactively but there is no immunity after it initially clears the stun.

It's also not castable while stunned, at least to the best of my knowledge (to be honest, I haven't really tried).

Really, Warrior vs Ret Pally is going to come down to "who has the better gear" and "who is the better player" more often than not.

velouriam
11-01-2008, 09:05 PM
I have yet to be able to shield slam their wings off. I think once it took me 3 times of shield slam to dispel them but they may have just worn off. Dont waste time trying to dispel wings imo.

Magnuss
11-02-2008, 12:50 AM
If by "little AOE thing" you mean Consecration, that's a terrible ret pally.

If by "little AOE thing" you mean Divine Storm, it's not spell reflectable.

(Neither is Consecration either, but that's still a bad ret pally)

EDIT: And yeah, stunlock him to either force the bubble or waste his wings.

I meant divine storm. Im not exactly sure what it is that i reflect but every time i see a paladin pop his divine storm, i hit spell reflect and the majority of the time i see 3 "REFLECTED" things come up from my scrolling combat text. The only way i reflect 3 like that is if its 1 spell with multiple channles to it. I assumed this was from the divine storm, however it may be something that is beneficial to use while DS is up? I dont know. It just works :)

Magnuss
11-02-2008, 12:51 AM
I have yet to be able to shield slam their wings off. I think once it took me 3 times of shield slam to dispel them but they may have just worn off. Dont waste time trying to dispel wings imo.

Shield slam has a 100% chance to dispel the target of 1 affect. If the pally you are facing has multiple buffs on, then you will dispel one of those each time you shield slam. It will work if you are either lucky, or the pally has noting else on him (which if you SS alot, he never will).

velouriam
11-02-2008, 01:40 AM
Shield slam has a 100% chance to dispel the target of 1 affect. If the pally you are facing has multiple buffs on, then you will dispel one of those each time you shield slam. It will work if you are either lucky, or the pally has noting else on him (which if you SS alot, he never will).

Right...i realize that...what i was getting at though is the fact that the time spent dispelling buff after buff trying to dispell wings could be better used.

Magnuss
11-02-2008, 01:25 AM
Ah i see what you mean. I dont know personally how you like to use your abilities in pvp against other players but for me, my shield slam is my core ability and i use it every chance i get. Doesnt really allow for a pally to get too much up on themselves.

velouriam
11-03-2008, 12:12 AM
yeah. Looks like ur a prot warrior so that would makes sense. Im arms so taking the time to bring up shield, switch stances and use shield slam a few times for me could be better used on sudden death procs and overpower to out dps my opponent.

zx00
11-04-2008, 05:57 PM
if they pop wings against you, it should be a natural instinct to bring up shield and D stance right away, considering thats when they out put most of their dmg so you need to use defensive cooldowns to counter that. shield block and revenge spam as arm plus SBed SS is amazing and can out put just as much pressure for that 10-15 sec thats compareable to a winged paladin, on top of reflecting either a HoJ or judgement that can potentially win you the fight.

Also i heard that AW gives forbearence again so a paladin would have to choose between bubble or wings, with this change its totally possible to beat a ret pally as any warrior spec if your strategy is right.

velouriam
11-04-2008, 07:23 PM
I would love it if AW gave them forebearance again. then u only have to deal with one problem...not both. Is this true? did 3.0.3 bring this change?

Extermi
11-07-2008, 07:04 AM
Yes with 3.03 the wings give me 3 minutes forbearance, hence no Ret Paladin in his right mind will use wings in its current state except to shorten a sure finishing. They have said to eventually balance this to like 30 seconds forbearance, though.

I did have a few coming-togethers with prot warriors in the BG and they are definitely tough enemies - I am stunned and silsnced most of the time, my buffs get removed and my own attacks tend to get avoided or diminished. So prot warriors seem to be a nice anti-melee class, just I would have been expecting. Having been prot Paladin for more than 2 years, I was literally destroying rougues, fury/arms warriors and ret paladins in 1:1 situations and BGs, so a similar effect is what prot Warriors should have.

From my experience (your mileage will differ) few melee classes should pose a threat, casters are what you need to watch out for. It could be better since spell reflect > bubble IMHO but I might be wrong.

Extermi

Nyd
11-07-2008, 07:05 AM
Reflect judgments.