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Foolishness
10-22-2008, 06:58 AM
SO now the mages are spenidng DKP on healing gear because they say regen is good, and we have 4 mages who can pants any of the healers on anything they want.

I even had a priest leave the group when items were given out to the mages.

I would normally justify it by, "well healing gear is no good for you", but now apparently it is..

How should this be dealt with and how will clothies loot systems work in wotlk?

Bonerot
10-22-2008, 07:09 AM
DKP is the fix imo. You already have it, if your healers have no DKP then they will need to wait a bit to earn more.

You could always reset your dkp balances when the xpac releases to even the playing field back out.

Krashtork
10-22-2008, 08:40 AM
The DPS clothies shouldn't be investing too heavily in regen anyhow. They all have plenty of ways to regenerate it:

Mages - Evocation, Mana Gem, Mage Armor
Warlocks - Life Tap + Drain Health, rinse repeat. Plus absorb pet mana if Aff specced.
S-preists - Here I could see some Mp5 and spirit being useful. But vampire spells help.
Boomkin - Generally high spirit / regen by class, also has innervate.

So yeah, I would consider restricting high Mp5 items to healers. Most DPS that needs Mp5 gear is doing it wrong.

Fastpaws
10-22-2008, 08:44 AM
The DPS clothies shouldn't be investing too heavily in regen anyhow. They all have plenty of ways to regenerate it:

Mages - Evocation, Mana Gem, Mage Armor
Warlocks - Life Tap + Drain Health, rinse repeat. Plus absorb pet mana if Aff specced.
S-preists - Here I could see some Mp5 and spirit being useful. But vampire spells help.
Boomkin - Generally high spirit / regen by class, also has innervate.

So yeah, I would consider restricting high Mp5 items to healers. Most DPS that needs Mp5 gear is doing it wrong.

This ^

Fayre
10-22-2008, 09:46 PM
Why is there such a big disparity in spending power between your healers and your clothie dps classes? That strikes me as being the real issue. The itemisation changes really do make items good for both types of caster to an extent.

orcstar
10-23-2008, 06:52 AM
Why is there such a big disparity in spending power between your healers and your clothie dps classes? That strikes me as being the real issue. The itemisation changes really do make items good for both types of caster to an extent.
Spellstrike and frozenshadoweave/Spellfire combo (5 gearslots a lock/mage doesn't have to spend dkp on until deep into T5 content) whereas a holypriest only had Primal Mooncloth set. (which by the way is only soso for a healer and quickly replaced.)

That's where the difference in spending power comes from.

Tobius
10-23-2008, 03:17 PM
Whitemend stuff too ;)

It might be a bit iffy atm for you guys for various reasons, but if handled via a decent loot system I can't see it being a problem in the expansion.

At the end of the day you only have 3 classes who can only wear cloth so its not a big leap to add in the Holy priests with the Locks, Mages and Shadow priests imo.

orcstar
10-23-2008, 04:45 PM
Whitemend stuff too ;)

It might be a bit iffy atm for you guys for various reasons, but if handled via a decent loot system I can't see it being a problem in the expansion.

At the end of the day you only have 3 classes who can only wear cloth so its not a big leap to add in the Holy priests with the Locks, Mages and Shadow priests imo.
All classes can wear cloth. A lot of healers use any item of any armor class if an item of their own armor class is not available. Also elemental shamans and boomkins use cloth. So that will be an awful lot of roles for same kind of gear.

Tobius
10-23-2008, 04:59 PM
Thats not a healer only situation though, dps classes will downgrade their armour class too if needed, particularly Balance Druids.

I'm still not convinced there are any loot issues over the spell power changes.

If people are getting upset to the point where they are thinking about leaving groups because of loot allocation I think there are other problems. I don't know enough about the particular situation the OP's guild are in to comment on that though.

Edit - I think I read an earlier version of your post lol

orcstar
10-23-2008, 05:11 PM
It's a bit late :) my earlier post needed a bit of editing because of obvious mistakes.

The problems about spending power come when some classes can get very very nice craftables so they have to spend a lot less dkp gearing up in raids: that way the classes with the craftables will always have first dibbs on the nice stuff while other classes have to spend all their dkp just getting gear. A lot of mages didn't even bother bidding on t4 items.

Tobius
10-23-2008, 05:42 PM
Yeah thats what I was getting at. The problem isn't due to the spell power changes it's due to the fact the mages in the OP's guild have been able to gear up "for free" as it were, outside of the dkp system.

I'll be honest, I haven't checked up on the tailoring recipes for Wrath so I couldn't say if the same situation is likely to cause problems in the future.

I would point out though that it's not really isolated to the tailoring recipes, with the Badge gear available currently in particular, any class should be able to gear to a similar standard outside of raids. You could just as easily have had the holy priests (being in demand for groups) earning lots of badges for themselves and buying imba heal gear for most slots and outbidding the mages.

The good news is with a robust loot system in place almost all issues can be avoided one way or another.

automatics
10-27-2008, 07:15 AM
For one I wouldn't worry about this too much as the expansion is coming out so soon. Although if it is causing drama obviously something has to be done.

Any item clearly superior for a healer should go to one. I doubt a healer would place a bid on the cloth item with spell hit so if an item is clearly better for healer or a caster it should be reserved for the appropriate class.

If an item is for both a healer or caster they should both have a fair chance at it. appropriate

It sounds like you might need to re adjust your dkp system if people are gaining such an advantage on loot other people are getting left out.

Sangi
10-27-2008, 01:31 PM
We are breaking the gear down this way. If it is of the type of armor that you can wear and not a downrank (leather wearers rolling on cloth) then

If it has +hit DPS gets first shot at it, then the healers if no DPS wants it.
If it has +mp5 healers get first shot at it, then the DPS classes if no healers want it.
If it doesn't have either +hit of +mp5 then its open to all casters immediately.

Down rank happens if no one else wants it that it is thier primary armor type.

Krashtork
10-28-2008, 12:19 AM
I would suggest that:
If it has +crit on it DPS gets first shot at it. After that healers.

Honestly, what tank wants a healer that relies on crits to get the job done? Not saying crit heals aren't spiffy, they just aren't reliable.

Tobius
10-28-2008, 12:31 AM
Some healers get a lot of benefit out of Crit heals. Holy priests get Inspiration, Clearcasting and also to a lesser extent the mana back on over heals favours crit.

Narshe
10-28-2008, 02:26 AM
Shamans get a lot of healing from crits, and everyone knows about those paladins rolling on Mageblades 3 years ago.

Gromblee
10-28-2008, 02:44 AM
With the move to spellpower a look should be given to the craftables to see if they are a better fit for the healers now. My priest and druid used to carry heal and DPS gear.....now not so much as it is all simply spellpower and I just mix and match to keep the best of it and keep the extra bag space. Need to go back and look at what my tailor can make!

Krashtork
10-28-2008, 05:39 AM
You guys weren't hear me: Despite the fact that healing classes can greatly benefit from +crit, it is NOT something you want them to rely one when it comes to healing. +Crit is the gravy, not the bread and butter.

Gwyndolin
10-28-2008, 06:46 AM
You guys weren't hear me: Despite the fact that healing classes can greatly benefit from +crit, it is NOT something you want them to rely one when it comes to healing. +Crit is the gravy, not the bread and butter.

And you missed the point that several healing specs aren't stacking crit to maintain throughput, they're stacking it to activate very beneficial talents.

Sangi
10-28-2008, 06:49 AM
Paladin healers have always wanted crit. With the changes there are synergistic effects with crit for most of the healers. The only stat on spell power gear that is a pure DPS stat is +hit. Really how many times have you had your heal resisted?

Krashtork
10-28-2008, 01:35 PM
Ok, in the case of paladins it makes sense. How many plate wearers need spell power and +crit?

I still believe that regardless of how awesome crit may be to healing, It's not something to rely on to get the job done.

loquatious
10-28-2008, 03:58 PM
Kras you just need to go look at the other healing classes. Shaman get mana back on crit. You are just missing the benefits because you dont know the classes.

Sangi
10-29-2008, 07:28 AM
The clear casting procs for priests are now on crit. I am not sure what effects are there for druids. I am not saying that healers are going to go out and go "MOAR CRIT!" However it is now not a complete waste of itemization for them like hit is.

mero12513
10-29-2008, 10:48 AM
Inspiration - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=15363)

Trust me, you want your priests to have crit gear.

Krashtork
10-29-2008, 01:48 PM
You guys are missing what I'm saying - Let me be clear:

1) I understand that the healing classes (Paladin's, Priests, and Shaman, especially) benefit from +Crit, saves them plenty of mana.

2) I understand that we as tanks benefit largely from our healers having a decent amount of +Crit. (See: Inspiration as Mero pointed out)

3) Healers that rely very heavily on getting mana back from crits will run into problems when they run into a string of non-crits.

4) If a tank needs Inspiration to survive, he's doing something wrong. Yes, it's a nifty spell and can help save you in a pinch, but it's not something you would base your tanking around. You can never assume that you will have a buff that is based on a random dice roll.

5) Crit is a chance. The same way we can't solely rely on dodges and parries, healer's cannot rely on crits. Murphy's law is clear that at some point this will fail you in the worst ways.

6) Healing like tanking is about stability. You need to have the means to get the job done without relying on the RNG before you try to make your life easier by stacking things that rely on the RNG.

7) I do understand the healing classes, at least on a fundamental level, don't patronize me. I'm not saying they shouldn't stack crit, but I find it to be far less important than for a dps to stack crit because healers should be able to heal you sufficiently without it. If they can't, they are not to be relied on.

Garrek
10-29-2008, 02:21 PM
Crit for healers has never really been about a throughput stat, it has always been a mechanism stat. Those mechanisms vary from class to class and build to build as to their effectiveness. Some to the extent of being a defining aspect of the build (the current raid healing discipline priest spec comes to mind). To simply say that gear that supports those builds is to be prioritized to other builds means you're relegating the players of those specs as 2nd class citizens in the raid. Ask any elemental shaman how they feel about that kind of treatment through T4-T5 gearing and you'll get an earful.

About the only stat that doesn't have some kind of univeral usefulness (for casters) anymore is +hit. About the only conclusion you can derive from that is that DPS will obviously get priority on items with +hit, and everything else is fair game. Past that, trust (or preach incessantly) that your raiders know what exactly is good for them and the pieces of gear they are shooting for so that you reduce gear contention to a minimum. (I can't stand folks that roll on every item they don't have without considering if it's is an upgrade or even side-grade)

Gwyndolin
10-30-2008, 02:02 AM
You guys are missing what I'm saying - Let me be clear:

1) I understand that the healing classes (Paladin's, Priests, and Shaman, especially) benefit from +Crit, saves them plenty of mana.

2) I understand that we as tanks benefit largely from our healers having a decent amount of +Crit. (See: Inspiration as Mero pointed out)

3) Healers that rely very heavily on getting mana back from crits will run into problems when they run into a string of non-crits.

4) If a tank needs Inspiration to survive, he's doing something wrong. Yes, it's a nifty spell and can help save you in a pinch, but it's not something you would base your tanking around. You can never assume that you will have a buff that is based on a random dice roll.

5) Crit is a chance. The same way we can't solely rely on dodges and parries, healer's cannot rely on crits. Murphy's law is clear that at some point this will fail you in the worst ways.

6) Healing like tanking is about stability. You need to have the means to get the job done without relying on the RNG before you try to make your life easier by stacking things that rely on the RNG.

7) I do understand the healing classes, at least on a fundamental level, don't patronize me. I'm not saying they shouldn't stack crit, but I find it to be far less important than for a dps to stack crit because healers should be able to heal you sufficiently without it. If they can't, they are not to be relied on.

You're saying that healers can't roll against dps for gear with +crit due to your belief about the usefulness of +crit items. It's a flawed argument because healers benefit plenty from +crit. If you don't trust your healers to gear themselves how they feel they need to, get new healers dont make arbitrary rules defining what type of gear they can get. If the RL told me I couldn't get an item with +dodge because relying on a chance not to get hit is bad tanking I'd be looking for a new RL very shortly thereafter.

+Hit is useless for a healer, a healer trying to get a +hit item is simply bad(with the exception of an over budget item that is still better than any similiar items even though they don't have +hit.)
+Crit is not useless and you don't really have a place to tell your healers that they shouldn't want it.

Note: Saying "If you need Inspiration you're doing it wrong" is ridiculous. With a high enough crit % a priest MT healing could keep Inspiration rolling all the time. Clearly you aren't going to get 1 shot if it falls off, but it saves all the healers healing you mana and reduces the likelyhood of being killed between heals (ala silence, thrash, etc). Its a good talent and a priest wanted to get enough crit to roll it is not an idiot.

Gretchin
10-30-2008, 04:35 AM
Healers don't really need crit from gear as of now, yes it benefits but not that much as it would for warlocks or mages.

Mp5 and spirit = priest (and druid)
+crit and +hit = mage and warlock, and maybe priest/shaman/paladin. Remember that upgrade is upgrade, no matter if the item just happends to have a piece of crit on it - the rest of the stats is more likely to be the importance in the upgrade

orcstar
10-30-2008, 04:54 AM
Whether a healer or a caster dps needs +crit depends highly on spec.

+crit shouldn't be defaulted to dps, that's just stupid.
On my shamans there are a lot of very nice new talents now and a lot of nice things happen for me to seriously consider gearing for crit.

(Would you have let your warlock rolled on crit gear in Karazhan? Hell no, good warlocks then were affliction because at that gear lvl it was highest dps and dots an channeled spells which didn't benefit from crit, spelldamage was the way to go. In Black Temple however. Highest dps warlocks were destruction warlocks. So crit benefitted them greatly. This is just to illustrate that the need for crit depends highly on spec. Paladins for instance wanted as much crit as they could get, it was a thing that the spec needed.)

Krashtork
10-30-2008, 01:54 PM
All I'm saying is I refuse to rely on the RNG to keep me alive. I do not disagree that Crit helps healers, but a healer that relies on Crit to get the job done is wrong. Period.

Now whether or not they can roll on crit gear is still debatable. That's not the premise of my arguement.

klor
10-30-2008, 02:05 PM
I would suggest that:
If it has +crit on it DPS gets first shot at it. After that healers.

Honestly, what tank wants a healer that relies on crits to get the job done? Not saying crit heals aren't spiffy, they just aren't reliable.

This right here started and ended this argument. Granted, most healers don't RELY on crit other than paladins, that does not mean gear with crit on it is bad for them. For example, what if someone were to argue with you that a piece of tanking gear was not really that good for you because shield block rating was on the item. It had amazing other stats such as stamina, block value, etc, but because it had block rating, which is not something any tank relies on, that you shouldn't take it?

What would you say to that? (Besides the fact that no other class can use it anyway, thats not the argument)

The same thing goes for crit on caster loot. Sure, it may have crit on it, but it also has int, stam, spell power, and chances are some sort of mp5 (atleast some of the higher end game gear did)

DPS casters benefit from mp5 in the same way healers benefit from crit. With the addition of potion sickness, mana classes are looking for a better way to conserve mana. Crit is that way. Sure, it relies on the RNG, but most of this game does. There is absolutely no reason a healer should be excluded from a cloth item just because it has crit on it. It has just as much benefit for a healer as it does for a dps caster. Afterall, all their damage is based off the RNG too, so it has JUST as much benefit to them.

Meeks
10-30-2008, 02:14 PM
We are breaking the gear down this way. If it is of the type of armor that you can wear and not a downrank (leather wearers rolling on cloth) then

If it has +hit DPS gets first shot at it, then the healers if no DPS wants it.
If it has +mp5 healers get first shot at it, then the DPS classes if no healers want it.
If it doesn't have either +hit of +mp5 then its open to all casters immediately.

Down rank happens if no one else wants it that it is thier primary armor type.

I never understood this. If the best item for a slot is a downrank then why should you not be on equal footing. If the item is for example a leather piece in which slot a same tier plate piece exists that the warrior would use instead then they should not be able to roll against rogues.

If the said leather piece is best in slot for the warrior and he will not replace it with plate then why should he have to wait till every rogue/druid gets it.

Same thing applies to boomkin with cloth drops and so on and so forth.

Sangi
10-30-2008, 02:21 PM
We implemented the downranking policy back in SSC/TK. If I remember correctly there are only about 4-5 pieces of boomkin leather in both raids combined. It is only after the primary wearer of that armor type pass can some one roll on it as a down rank. This would be before any offsets get to roll.

Shadevarr
10-30-2008, 02:25 PM
We had some complaints about the cloth situation on the 1st week, once we explained that we will not be regulating who gets what other than top bid for main spec the clothies stopped QQing. Arcane mages are actually seeking spirit gear since they get a nice multiplier to it and it is overall getting balanced.

DKP for us is mostly a loot priority system, he who wants it most gets it the 1st time it drops by paying through the nose. I've seen people spend 3 months worth of dkp on a single tier piece. Since the OP is using DKP, I'd not worry about it too much. If it has hit on it and the holy priest is still bidding on it that means that despite the lost itemization points it is still an upgrade!

Meeks
10-30-2008, 02:25 PM
We implemented the downranking policy back in SSC/TK. If I remember correctly there are only about 4-5 pieces of boomkin leather in both raids combined. It is only after the primary wearer of that armor type pass can some one roll on it as a down rank. This would be before any offsets get to roll.

So if you raided with a boomkin(which i realize is likely you did not in BC) they had to be content with the 4 leather pieces that drop, which were usually poorly itemized compared to the cloth, until every mage/lock/spriest had it regardless of dkp or whatever loot system you used? I know a lot of guilds have done this but I will have to disagree with this policy, just does not seem very fair to me.

Sangi
10-30-2008, 02:34 PM
Oh I fought against it too. I would have preferred people to roll on items based on usability and their role. Unfortunately I lost hard. We eventually settled on Khaliban's loot list as determining priority as no one wanted to develop one of our own.

I have done some preliminary data mining out on wowhead that show that this shouldn't be an issue in Wrath. Looking at our distribution over two raid nights it appears that cloth spell casters are twice as prevelant as any other grouping. There are about 20 items, give or take, in each of the categories we have defined. Except cloth which has about 40. We broke it down to mp5 and +hit to differentiate casters vs healers. If it has neither stat then it is open for both to roll on.

Trust me I have been arguing loot system specifics and who gets to roll on what with the other officers in the guild for over a week now. Its driving me crazy. But I feel it is important to state a policy up front so that the raiders have a reasonable exception of what they are allowed to roll on.

Dispell
12-07-2008, 12:38 AM
+Hit -> DPS
mp5 -> healer

Exception to boomkin for mp5
thats how we do it atleast

niobewun
01-29-2009, 05:03 AM
Personally... if you are in an all guild run... there should be some rules layed out I think.

IMO Tank/Healer.... are next to god.... yes you need dps... but if heals is gimped with gear because all your dps is maxed out.... that = dead dps.

Heals should have some sort of priorty to dps, not always... but if your heals is wearing a blue belt and mage has a T7... trying to upgrade to T7.5... healer should be getting it IMO.

Just some thoughts.

minrog
01-29-2009, 05:19 AM
The loot system we use is designed to protect the first three drops of an item. We have armor class downranking protection in the system because of what happens to our "progression" drops when we don't. The leather/mail/plate casters snag up the first cloth items and then we get 40 leather/mail/plate drops that default to them. So we sharded at least half of our drops and our clothies are sitting on quarter sets of gear.

It doesn't matter when the epics rain from the sky (nobody bids on much anyway) but the first three really make a difference to raid performance. You can't have them being sharded an hour later because the other guy got an item that fit his armor type better.

Edit: I don't particularly care for burst healing. I like having Holy Priests and Resto Druids healing me when I'm tanking. The healing component of critical strike rating doesn't help me at all though I wouldn't block people from rolling on items because of it. I'd just rather not have Disc Priests on me because I need big steady heals the whole fight not huge overheals one minute and pathetic flash heals the next (with a damage shield). I'd rather the burst gear go to DPS'ers because it doesn't matter when the burst happens for them after like the first few seconds of an encounter.