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Leytur
10-19-2008, 04:05 PM
I just did ZA. We hadn't killed Dragonhawk before. Never got more than one chest.

Today we got 3 chests and full clear. I got my shoulders and helm.

I'm at 462 defense since my previous helm and shoulders had some resilience as well.

I did not come CLOSE to dying even on the hardest hitting bosses.

So is crit immunity the necessity that it was before? Can I hang with 475 even?

Darksend
10-19-2008, 04:17 PM
Can I hang with 475 even?

obvious answer, no

long answer:
i did a ZA with exactly 475 defense, dragonhawk crit me for 3.8K only time i got crit the whole run, i simply hit shield block to let the healers catch up

that said i do not recommend people stay critable, 12 defense to bracers, 15 def to chest, you should already be using the def shield block meta so change to that if you still have the 18 stam one.


at worst, throw resilence on your shield if you really need to that is probably the best return on replacing enchants.

Leytur
10-19-2008, 04:34 PM
So it sounds like you CAN hang with 375. I don't get it. You got crit and didn't blink.

Anyways, I can do the def to chest for sure.

I have no meta slots.

I'm going to see where I get with the KoT enchant, the chest, and a couple new gems.

Darksend
10-19-2008, 04:39 PM
So it sounds like you CAN hang with 375. I don't get it. You got crit and didn't blink.

Anyways, I can do the def to chest for sure.

I have no meta slots.

I'm going to see where I get with the KoT enchant, the chest, and a couple new gems.


well not really

the run we were doing was an alt run with 2 full sunwell geared healers, and i am anal about keeping demo and TC up on anything i tank, with lesser geared healers and no TC/demo, things would have been very different.

Leytur
10-19-2008, 04:43 PM
What was your own armor at? Sunwell level or were you one of the alts?

Darksend
10-19-2008, 04:46 PM
i was the alt.

look in my sig the bottom link


armory is showing the chest i just bought, at the time i had the chest off nightbane

Leytur
10-19-2008, 04:47 PM
Another question. . . I'm sure it's out there somewhere but I'll keep it in this thread. . .

For where we are right now wtfpwning stuff with TC and SW. . . what stat to stack? Str? Crit? Agi?

Leytur
10-19-2008, 04:48 PM
i was the alt.

look in my sig the bottom link


armory is showing the chest i just bought, at the time i had the chest off nightbane

OK so it looks like i have a bit more armor that you. So I'll be honest. . . I'm not gonna sweat 490 right now. And if it doesn't work out well I'll let everyone know. ;)

Darksend
10-19-2008, 04:51 PM
OK so it looks like i have a bit more armor that you. So I'll be honest. . . I'm not gonna sweat 490 right now. And if it doesn't work out well I'll let everyone know. ;)

well it depends, if you are only doing 10 mans yea

in BT its different, but also varied, on my druid i wore 1% critable on bloodboil and got crit 3 times in a row, on teron he will crit you for 20K.

same in hyjal, 1st 2 are a joke, kaz stuns and a crit while stunned with no dodge, azgolar is a beast.

brut in sunwell crit my druid for 20K one time.


edit: just looked at your armory, you only have .09% chance to be crit, i know i remember seeing a while ago that resilence would no longer grant crit immunity in pve but that was never implimented.

all depends on what you plan on doing instance wise.

mavfin
10-19-2008, 04:54 PM
Yeah, you're going to want 490 unless you want to find yourself lying on the floor going 'Huh? What hit me?' sometime. At 80, get 540 and save yourself the trouble. With no crush now, being uncrittable will be very important.

Shagh
10-19-2008, 05:03 PM
Ok, newbie question income.

When you all say 490, do you mean 490 ignoring resilience completely. Or the equivalent of 490 adding in the resilience.

Apologies for my ignorance in advance.

Darksend
10-19-2008, 05:04 PM
Ok, newbie question income.

When you all say 490, do you mean 490 ignoring resilience completely. Or the equivalent of 490 adding in the resilience.

Apologies for my ignorance in advance.

this was just answered 2 posts up in this very thread

Leytur
10-20-2008, 03:30 AM
Armory is fubared. It shows me in my old helm/shoulders which had resilience on 'em.

I got to 482 I think it is with enchants and one epic def gem. I really don't see it being an issue. But I will let you know in this next week of raiding.

Crommi
10-20-2008, 06:27 PM
Aim for 490 defense, but it is not absolutely necessary in order to enter ZA if your gear is decent enough. I tanked full ZA run yesterday with ~470 defense and although there was couple crits here and there, hitting Shieldblock will give your healers enough time to react. It was a random pug with no T6 geared players and we just cruised through, missed 4th chest by a minute just because I was being a noob and forgot which way to go :D

tcdgais
10-20-2008, 08:42 PM
your armory shows you at 485. just drink a flask of fortification (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22851) when you raid tank so we can all sleep at night. thanks.

Grakkur
10-21-2008, 01:56 AM
Uncrittable status, always. Some bosses are nasty and an unlucky streak means curtains down. I reckon it is also a good practice to stay uncrittable, otherwise you could amass some type of nasty hubris and start raiding higher end instances (both in TBC now and WotLK later) without hitting the defense cap.

Darksend
10-21-2008, 07:08 AM
for illidan i switched in my s3 throwing weapon to get crit immune, other than that i ran a full alt bt with 489, i never saw a crit flash on my screen but the WWS log said i got crit 7 times, which is linked in my most recent blog.

We had 9 healers in that run, and i was still dipping a ton most than im comfortable withn get crit immune

Lore
10-21-2008, 08:55 AM
The question is, what are you stacking instead? If you're going to stack another defensive/survivability stat, then ur doin it rong. Removing crits is absolutely the biggest thing you can do for survivability.

Defense is overall probably the best avoidance stat for Warriors and Paladins, especially post-3.0. It's slightly behind Dodge in terms of raw avoidance (19.75 defense rating for 1% avoidance, compared to 18.92 dodge rating for 1% dodge), and adds to your block chance on top of that. It also is partially Miss and Parry, which means lower diminishing returns, as well as a slight threat increase from the Parry and the 360 degree benefit of Miss. So dropping defense into the crittable range to pick up more avoidance is bad, because you're probably not actually picking up more avoidance.

Dropping defense to pick up more Stamina is also bad, but for a slightly more complicated reason. We stack Stamina to survive burst, or the "worst case scenario" - the more HP you have, the longer you can survive when everything goes wrong. Allowing yourself to be crittable just makes your burst potential higher. Yeah, you might pick up another 200-300 HP by enchanting Stamina instead of Defense, but you'll be increasing your burst potential by up to 100%. Basically, you're greatly increasing the amount of health required in order to give a very slight increase to the amount of health you have. That's like buying someone's $5 bill for $20.

The only situation in which being crittable is okay is when you've got absolute faith in your healers and want to go for some DPS instead. 99 times out of 100, this means you overgear the content. Doing Heroics as a T6 tank is an example. However, in that situation, you'll generally want to just swap on a few pieces of DPS gear, not re-enchant your tanking gear for Strength.

Naaven
10-21-2008, 09:24 AM
When you all say 490, do you mean 490 ignoring resilience completely. Or the equivalent of 490 adding in the resilience.

Well, it was only really answered indirectly. To answer your question directly, the discussion is about the idea of 490 as being uncritable.

Thanassos
10-21-2008, 07:47 PM
I'm not sure if anyone else brought this up... But in my "questing" gear I have only 479 defence yet my -% to be crit hit is 5.16% The cap is 5% correct?

If so, has the cap actually been lowered.

mavfin
10-21-2008, 07:57 PM
I'm not sure if anyone else brought this up... But in my "questing" gear I have only 479 defence yet my -% to be crit hit is 5.16% The cap is 5% correct?

If so, has the cap actually been lowered.

5.6% is needed, not 5%

Narshe
10-21-2008, 10:21 PM
5% for mobs of the same level as you. Add 0.20% for each level above a mob has compared with you.

Muffin Man
10-22-2008, 12:45 AM
It occurs to me that being crit is the new crush. As warriors, in the past we could never totally avoid crushes unless a boss swung slower than 2.5 seconds. Druids couldn't avoid crushes at all to my knowledge.

Since the patch has removed crushes tanks have been tanking content they never dreamed of touching. I did a pug where the Gruul's tank had 12k life unbuffed and was in 2/3 Felsteel. To my knowledge there's been no changes to make tanks tougher. So we're more survivable *because* there are no crushing blows anymore.

Allowing crits back on the table sends you back towards the situation before where an unlucky string of crushes could end your night and you had to gear more life/health/avoidance accordingly.

My 2 cents, but I'm still waiting for a group to let me into ZA even post-nerf.

Melenkurion
10-22-2008, 05:45 AM
I normalized my def back to 490 with some +def/+sta gems and Steelweave enchant. All I lost was like 250 HP.

phaze
10-22-2008, 08:47 AM
I did not come CLOSE to dying even on the hardest hitting bosses.

So is crit immunity the necessity that it was before? Can I hang with 475 even?

You're asking about content you outgear, thanks in part to the 3.0 changes. For those cases, do whatever. =)

Once you start tackling content appropriate for your gear level, you'll most certainly want to be crit immune through defense/resilience.