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Nyd
10-16-2008, 07:36 AM
I wanted to take a few minutes to do a write up about pvProt. I've followed it and been pretty intensely focused on it from the moment I had access to beta. I've watched it evolve from "Hey we can do damage now" to "Not only can I do damage but I can really shut someone down, protect my comrades, and generally become an immovable mountain".

I'm going to cover some basics for the aspiring pvProt warrior, gearing choices, specs as well as general strategy and execution. In this first revision I will talk about general Strategy for Battlegrounds and one on one matchups and will expand on it the more I experiment.


Section 1. - Strengths and Weakness

First let's take a look at the basic Strengths and Weakness of prot in pvp. Realize of course that Protection is a control spec in pvp. It is designed to shut down opponents, protect comrades and pack a bit of a punch on the tail end to bring people down.

Protection Strengths:
+Moderate Damage Output
+Excellent Shutdown
+Unmatched Mobility
+Good to Excellent Sticking power
+Friendly Protection (Safeguard, Spell Reflect)

Protection Weakness:
-No healing reduction
-Heavy Diminishing Return centric spec (Stuns)

Section 2. - General Concepts and Strategy

pvProt is very centric around shutting players down via stuns, interupts and silences while having the mobility to enact that shut down and facilitate some sticking power to truly lock a target down. On top of that our ability to reflect critical offensive spells (sheeps and heavy damage) directed not only at ourselves but anyone in our immediate party as well as the protective power of Intervenes paired with Safeguard and even Vigilance's damage reduction create a controlling defensive play style that is unique to the pvProt warrior. Not only are you offensively threatening your presence should cause some real fear towards anyone looking to go after your healers or ranged dps.

pvProt is the tackle of the offensive line. We put the hurt on the opposing team while protecting the quarterback and opening up holes for our running backs to get out there and do their magic.

Strategic use of Stuns followed by Silencing shield bashes with charges, intervenes and intercepts are all skills that will need to be mastered to be an effective pvProt warrior. Diminishing returns will need to be monitored closely (I'm still looking for a solid mod) as you can waste critical locking power to targets still within the DR window.

Section 3. - Talents

Currently on Live we have our 51 point talents and only 61 points to spend on the trees. Protection relies on some Deep Prot talents and especially our 51 point talent so as such what we do with the other 10 points is somewhat limited at 70. As we level in WotLK more talents will open up to us and some serious choices will need to be made (Damage vs Control). At 70 it's less of an issue as we simply don't have enough points to get into T3 talents in arms or fury. Today we'll focus on Live and I will update this as we transition into Wrath.

I've played with a couple of different specs. I will list what I've tested and give an overview of what I prefer and why.

8/0/53 - Stance Mastery (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0cZZVhd0gfzidIdsGo)

0/8/53 - Crit (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZhxZVhdbTfzibIdsGo)

In live currently at level 70 I prefer the Stance Mastery build and here is why. Protection, much like pvp Arms before it benefits greatly from Stance Mastery and I challenge any warrior that avoids stance mastery for any pvp spec to examine the reality that one stance does not fit all.

As a pvProt warrior one of your greatest offensive (and defensive) strengths comes from your mobility. However mobility without sticking power is limited in it's effectiveness. As a pvProt warrior especially you will find yourself both in Battle Stance (for Hamstring) on those targets that require you to be as sticky as possible and Defensive stance on those targets that aren't actively trying to get away from you (melee).

Situational awareness is critical, knowing when it's time to be in Battle stance and when it's time to D-stance up and start looking for that intervene target to get outta dodge is pretty critical, especially so in BG's. Taking heavy focus fire, intervening targets under fire, and otherwise needing that extra mitigation will all be situations that call for Defensive. When you are on the move and on the attack on a target attempting to lock down and / or stick to a target Battle stance is the preferred stance.

Of course having access to Intercepts without worrying about rage dumps is also clutch in the pvProt warriors mobility arsenal.

Improved Revenge is a critical PvP talent providing you with a 50% chance to stun your opponent. The Improved Revenge talent also improves damage by 20%. Revenge received a pretty big boost in damage in a recent patch. It's worth the GCD when it's up. It's a free stun separate from your other stuns' DR timers and it heavily penalizes anyone for attacking you. Frankly I was a big proponent of simply leaving more damage on Devastate and relegating Revenge to use in low-rage-tanking situations or as a choose to use RNG stun only. Protection has enough buttons to manage in D-stance as it is in pvp. Of course this is debatable.

Improved Disarm is also extremely important. This is essentially the prot warriors' reverse Mortal Strike. You can disarm anyone, melee, healer, clothie and they are subject to a 10% increase in damage. Stacked with sunders, a healing reduction debuff, and perhaps a DK Death Grip and you can quickly isolate and debuff a target to the point that your DPS can eliminate the opponent very quickly.

Improved Spell Reflect defines the Protection warrior in PvP. Not only can you use this talent to prevent critical pew-pew or CC moments from casters focused at you, you can equally reflect those attacks aimed towards your comrades. Need to stop that critical CC aimed at your healer as the opposing team makes a burst push on a target, reflect saves the day. On top of that it reduces the chance to be hit with spells in the first place by 4%.

Section 4. - Gearing

I was not a huge pvp'er pre 3.0.2. I did my 10 games, sometimes more, I got my points most weeks, some weeks I didn't. I ended up with a mix of gear that consists of Brutal and Vengeful gear with some Guardian and Vindicators. Paired with some T6 level gear I sit somewhere in the neighborhood of 320 resilience 70 hit rating 14k health and roughly 30% crit. I main tanked T6 content through Kalecgos and pvp'd on the weekend as arms. I give you all of this information only to put into perspective gearing strategy for pvProt as it relates to what I had access to.

The reality is that PvP gear is the best for pvProt. Resilience is still king, high AP and Crit still provide the offensive punch and with how Strength converts to AP and Shield Slam damage as well as benefiting from Vitality; Strength is still the best stat to stack. No matter what you have access to from Seasons 2 to Season 4 - from quest blues to Illidan purples you want to base your gearing around Strength and Crit. You also need to consider hit Rating to 5% (~ 79 hit rating).

Mix and match whatever gives you the best results based on the gear available to you. If you are just getting started then I encourage you to buy your PvP blue gear and start the BG honor grind for Season 2. No reason not to also find a partner and at least get a start on Arena points to get what you can before the Wrath reset.

Section 5. - Enchants and Glyphs

Compiling information for this section.

Section 6. - Specific Strategies

I will be working on filling out the details of the below as I have more face time in the specific scenarios.

a. 1 v 1
b. Battleground
c. Arena

Section 6. - Conclusion

One thing is for certain, pvProt is a exciting and fun shift for Protection warriors from the past. The paradigm shift within Blizzard when it comes to class design is a most welcome one. I only hope that as we progress through Wrath and into future expansions that Blizzard looks at the Protection tree as an example of what can be done with a class spec not initially centered around PvP. I hope that they continue to refine not only the tanking aspects of Protection but also continue to explore it's functionality in PvP as well.

Hopefully someone will find this useful as a ground floor "how do I get started on this pvProt thing?" question. My goal is to continue to expand this guide and I will continue to maintain this and welcome any feedback.


*note Thanks to the following for their contributions to this guide:
Jlafleur
Pizzashark

ryffryda
10-16-2008, 09:05 AM
I'm getting more and more convinced Prot is the way to go. I'm not a huge fan of bladestorm in arms so far in pvp. I dueled a prot warrior yesterday, his dps sucked but his stuns put me out of battle for seconds at a time that were crucial. Our gear was comparable and I ended up losing pretty badly he had about 50% hp left over. Execute / overpower popping more frequently is nice but warriors with no hp regen is tough.

Kazeyonoma
10-16-2008, 09:09 AM
cool guide, I might run some 2v2s in arenas this weekend with my druid and if he decides to go dps i'll go prot and we'll see how it works out with our cc capabilities to effectively lock down a healer till death.

I'll try to contribute what I can.

One thing you might want to mention is that watching DRs cannot be stressed enough, wasting a intercept stun, or worse a shockwave stun is gonna be very detrimental to your lockdown.

and every warrior who wants to run pvProt needs to know how to run AWAY from their opponents to intercept/charge back in to keep locking down the target.

Truth
10-16-2008, 09:46 AM
Excellent guide. I have been debating taking my paladin in as prot for pvp, although its going to be a completely different strategy. I don't know if it will be as effective as warrior pvProt, but a pvProtadin (hmm.. there's got to be a better name than that) should at least be a major annoyance.

I'm sure no one will complain about having blessing of sanctuary or imp devo aura.

Most likely I will be trying this tonight and let everyone know how it goes.

Clyde
10-16-2008, 10:08 AM
Hm. At least prior to v3, Revenge was on a separate diminishing returns timer than charge / intervene / concussion blow... the "proc based" stun timer that shares with Seal of Justice and the old Mace stuns. The other is the "controlled" stun that shares with Hammer of Justice.

Is that different in v3.0.2? If not, you are giving away some lockdown that wouldn't hurt your other stuns.

Kazeyonoma
10-16-2008, 10:15 AM
I don't think it changed, proc versus controlled should still be the case, in which case... we should be able to not worry about revenge procs hurting us.

Nyd
10-16-2008, 10:47 AM
That is an assumption I made and I will have to test it further. I am still not sold on Revenge as a PvP talent however. I spent my lunch break outside of Ironforge this morning with the dueling crowd trying to get some class vs. class perspectives. Again for the amount of time you spend dancing from Battle to Defensive (depending on the target) and the relatively little time Revenge has proc'd and is availble to use it just doesn't find itself being used (or useful).

I'm also looking for some clarification on DR's on the Silence from Shield Bash if anyone has hard data on that. I've heard there is no DR on it, but I didn't get a chance this afternoon to test it. I will tonight if no one else has an opportunity.

I've got a Naxx run on Beta tonight and a BT tomorrow on Live so it will likely be Saturday before I can get into the Arena and start putting pvProt through its' paces. We'll likely be doing 3's or 5's. Should be fun! :)

jlafleur
10-16-2008, 10:59 AM
I'm not sure how you can pass up shield mastery (+30% block value, 20 sec CD reduction).

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZhLZMIdrgbzidIdsGo)

This is my build. The first 10 points in the first two tiers are really interchangeable. Puncture seems like a waste of points as I'm not devastating tons. Just when shockwave, disarm, shield slam, revenge and concussion blow are on CD and really only then to proc sword and board.

Its taken me a couple of days to get used to my new prot pvp keybinds. I've pretty much not left defensive stance although I should be intercepting more when I'm fighting mages (get stuck in a nova right after a charge). I'm planning on focusing on intergrating that into my gameplan over the next couple of days. Having said that, I haven't needed to even consider stance dancing much so I'd prot/fury is probably a better choice overall than prot/arms (stance mastery). The other thing I've got to get in my head is to use recklessness/shield wall/retaliation all of the time rather than once every two weeks. No reason to save them but hard to break old habits.

jlafleur
10-16-2008, 11:01 AM
Also mowed through heroic magister's terrace in my prot pvp build in 20 minutes - charge, shockwave, tc, spell reflect plus a cleave and devastate or two.

Nyd
10-16-2008, 12:27 PM
I definitely agree that I probably overlooked Shield Mastery. Luckily this is a work in progress! I still contend that Stance Mastery is greater than the little bit of crit and AP from the 8 points into fury. That may just all come down to playstyle in the end however, I like having stances open to me and not burning rage when dancing.

The talent section will likely undergo a bit of a revamp. I may list a few specs but I want to focus more on the talents themselves and what makes pvProt what it is (Spell Reflect, Safeguard, etc).

I appreciate the feedback, keep it coming guys!

Pizzashark
10-17-2008, 02:49 AM
I've been Prot since early 05 and I've been using it for PvP since Shield Discipline was the 31-point talent. I've never bothered with Arms or Fury.

Stance Mastery is less critical than you think, especially once you learn Rage management and learn to predict your enemies. It's still necessary, and I definitely will have it at 80, but at 70, my build will be:

5/5 Shield Specialization
2/2 Improved Bloodrage
3/3 Improved Thunder Clap
1/1 Last Stand
2/2 Improved Revenge
2/2 Shield Mastery
5/5 Toughness
2/2 Improved Spell Reflection
2/2 Improved Disarm
1/1 Concussion Blow
2/2 Gag Order
5/5 One-Handed Weapon Specialization
2/2 Improved Defensive Stance
3/3 Focused Rage
1/1 Warbringer
1/1 Devastate
2/2 Safeguard
3/3 Sword and Board
2/2 Damage Shield
1/1 Shockwave

3/3 Armored to the Teeth
5/5 Cruelty
2/2 Booming Voice

Sorry that I can't link to a wowhead build - the site's blocked here at work. The build has a single point in Protection left for you to move around as you see fit - I'm currently giving it to Puncture.

Vigilance is a bad talent for PvP - it was better before as 5% dodge, and now it's just worthless as 3% damage reduction. I cannot justify spending the point there instead of much more powerful abilities - even 1/3 Puncture is better.

The new Safeguard is your counter to healing debuff effects and burn protection for your teammates. Improved Spell Reflection is there to prevent shatter combos, cyclones, sheeps, and other directed CC effects - I highly recommend you pick up SpellAlerter (or something like it) for warning you of incoming spells. It sucks for battlegrounds, but I can't envision doing arena without it.

Improved Revenge is a critical PvP talent. It's a free stun, it's separate from your other stun timers, and it heavily penalizes anyone for attacking you, which is actually a positive thing. It's especially valuable against pet classes.

Improved Disarm is also extremely important. The cooldown reduction is handy, but the real reason to get it is the bonus damage effect. You can use this against any class - don't think that Disarm is restricted to the melee classes; you can Disarm priests and mages just as easily as rogues and paladins. A typical situation would be to stack the sunder effect on a priest (mostly negating his already low armor), force him to blow his fear, disarm him, silence him, and then have a DK death grip him behind a pillar. The priest is now in the middle of your team's DPS, with no armor, no ability to cast spells, no fear to peel with, and he's taking an extra 10% on top of everything else. This is almost certainly going to be death, and I think that teams facing teams with a DK and Prot warrior are going to have to learn to be aware of this and learn how to counter it - keeping the DK out of range of DG and/or not allowing him to pillar hump might be possible ways of countering it.

As a Prot warrior, your role is still that of a tank. Be extremely aggressive. Decide what the enemy team's most dangerous spellcaster is, and stay on top of them. Interrupt their spells, dispel their buffs, kill their armor, and in general make life hell for them. Learn to keep the sunder effect up on multiple targets, forcing the enemy team to be aware of two or more people ripe for a burndown. Interrupt heals, reflect CC's, intervene the enemy team's burn target to keep them up. Prot's gotten some amazing abilities in 3.0 that will make them critical to any 5's team.

Gearing is pretty simple now. PvP gear, all the way. Resilience is not a great concern for you, due to your high Armor and base HP, so enchant and socket for DPS. Fill red sockets with Bold (STR) cuts. Fill yellow sockets with Smooth (crit) cuts. Enchant your chest with 6 stats instead of 15 resilience. Enchant your legs with nethercobra, instead of nethercleft. Put 18 block value on your shield. Put an Eternal Earthstorm Diamond (+5% SBV and +12 Def) in your helm and Boar's Speed (9 STA and speed) on your boots. Use the autoblocker or coin for one trinket, and your medallion for the other.

I can't personally speak about 1v1 because I can't play right now, and things have likely changed. But general tips:

If you're fighting a healing Priest, don't interrupt the shadow spells - spell reflect them or LOS them. Save your interrupt for healing spells. Save your Rage so that you always have enough for a Shield Slam to dispel the bubble, to provide you with uninterrupted Rage generation and them with no free casting.

Against Hunters, spell reflect their traps. Disarm them to prevent wing clip and counterattack. If they're BM, try to force them to use Intimidation and The Beast Within at the same time. When they're under the effects of The Beast Within, either LOS them or run away, out of range. Make them chase you. Either get a mod to keep track of the duration or count 18 seconds. At 15 seconds, start closing back in and intercept them as soon as the effect ends. Keep hamstring/piercing howl on them and spam revenge. If they send their pet after you but don't chase (classic example is in WSG flagrooms), kill the pet - hamstring it and spam revenge.

Against Warriors with Second Wind, don't use Revenge. This may have changed now that Revenge does much more damage, but the damage done needs to exceed the 10% HP they'll recover from the stun effect. Warriors without Second Wind are free kills.

Shammies and Pallies only have a single spell school that matters. Don't worry about what kind of spell you interrupt, because it locks out heals and DPS at the same time. Learn to predict when they'll shock, stun, or judge you and get spell reflection up in time to bounce it. Try to catch them stunned after they pop NS, EM, DF, or similar abilities and dispel them with a Shield Slam.

Keep druids sundered at all times. Druids tend to try and tank you in bearform, then perform a bash+cyclone combo to heal. If you are bashed, do not trinket out until they shift out. If you have time, interrupt the cyclone. If you are not certain you will make it (i.e. they've already gotten 1 sec worth of the cyclone cast time in), wait for the cyclone and trinket it instead. Try to interrupt their Regrowth. Stun them while they're in caster form and burst them as hard as possible. Do not immediately break roots against an oomkin - try to bait a starfire combo reflection.

Get Afflicted or NECB to help you keep track of your stun DR timers, use MSBT to alert you to enemy buffs, and use SpellAlerter and Proximo to monitor enemy spellcasting. Use Pitbull or X-Perl unitframes and set up a focus target and learn to use it.

Pizzashark
10-17-2008, 03:07 AM
Forgot about glyphs. Devastate, Last Stand, and Blocking for your majors. Bloodrage, Charge, and Thunder Clap for your minors. Pick up Rapid Charge for your fourth major if you're a scribe.

As far as weapon enchants go, I'll probably use a weapon chain. Dismantle is currently the only way any team could possibly burn a prot warrior, and the less time you spend vulnerable, the better.

Pherae
10-17-2008, 03:43 AM
I've been Prot since early 05 and I've been using it for PvP since Shield Discipline was the 31-point talent. I've never bothered with Arms or Fury.
Vigilance is a bad talent for PvP - it was better before as 5% dodge, and now it's just worthless as 3% damage reduction. I cannot justify spending the point there instead of much more powerful abilities - even 1/3 Puncture is better.


It might be powerful in arenas to keep pets off of a teammate (the healer for instance) because every time they are hit, your taunt cooldown is refreshed. Moreover, Taunt is no longer a melee skill now (20 yd range).

The damage reduction aspect of the talent would be secondary and the real use of it would be to control pets.

I think it could be powerful with a /focus macro on the pet in this situation.

Pizzashark
10-17-2008, 03:50 AM
That's certainly true. I didn't consider that.

I'd still prefer to kill the pet instead of trying to control it via taunting, though.

jlafleur
10-17-2008, 05:35 AM
Scribes don't get a 4th gylph. That seems to have been removed from beta.

3% damage reduction is actually better than 5% IMO since it effects all damage not just melee. Extra dodge encourages overpower crit on your healer from an arm warrior. I think its a must-have for 1 point unless all you plan on doing is dueling.

At this point, I'd say Vitality> Booming Voice

0/8/53 or 0/7/54 > 0/10/51

At 71, I plan on respecing 0/11/51 so I can have piercing howl. Not sure where I'll trim the 3 points from prot at this point but I'll figure it out eventually.

Pizzashark
10-17-2008, 05:40 AM
Ugh, forgot to mention Vitality. 3/3 is a no-brainer. Wish they didn't block wowhead here.

I'll be running 0/10/51 at 70, picking up PH at 71, and then probably working down to Stance Mastery on my way to 80. I'll still have a point left over, so I'll probably pick up 2/3 Puncture.

Cider did raise a valid point that, at 70, PH may actually be more valuable than SW. If you can't stay on top of your targets, you're not going to be able to do your job. With the wonky charge/intercept pathing AI, landing 10 yards behind your target could lose you games.

As for the 5% dodge, I'd take 5% dodge over 3% DR any day of the week. A dodged MS means that you may have a couple of seconds of full healing. A dodged Shiv may mean that you can clear crippling long enough to get some distance. A dodged wing clip may mean that the hunter won't be able to get away. You get the idea.

And warriors with unrelenting assault and taste for blood are going to be slamming you with overpowers constantly, anyway.

Nyd
10-17-2008, 05:49 AM
Again thanks for the insightful feedback. It's good to see that Revenge's stuns are in fact on separate DR's. It will definitely remain in the builds I use.

I think that Vigilance perhaps has it's place in Arena. I think Intervene/Vigilance macro's might perhaps be useful towards keeping your target up. Is it necessary, is it worth the point, will that one point save the day? Probably not but I'll test it out.

I've been playing with the 0/8/53 build for the past couple of days but intend to swap over to the 8/0/53 build this weekend.

I'll be updating the main post with some of the information to this point here this morning. :)

jlafleur
10-17-2008, 05:56 AM
Pizzashark, no critical block? Right now you have 50 prot points if you add in 3/3 vitality. So I'd say 2/3 critical block (filling to 3/3 with your missing point) > booming voice right now.

Pizzashark
10-17-2008, 05:59 AM
If I could take those points out of Fury, I would. But you need 10 points to reach PH, and I frankly think that Booming Voice is better than either tier 2 option.

I don't plan on ever taking critical block, because I seriously doubt any melee class is going to be capable of doling out a 2k non-crit attack, and - as far as I'm aware - a blocked attack cannot crit, period.

Gehn
10-17-2008, 06:02 AM
Use Pitbull or X-Perl unitframes and set up a focus target and learn to use it.

Might I ask how you use your focus?

It is one thing that I have never really found useful unless I was a caster. I would love to learn more about its uses as a melee.

jlafleur
10-17-2008, 06:32 AM
Critcal Block - Your successful blocks have a 30% chance to block double the normal amount and increases your chance to critically hit with your Shield Slam ability by an additional 15%.

Hit Shield Block, pop Autoblocker, commence PVP Shield Slam pwnage

Pizzashark
10-19-2008, 01:49 PM
Might I ask how you use your focus?

It is one thing that I have never really found useful unless I was a caster. I would love to learn more about its uses as a melee.

In most cases you'd use it to keep track of enemy spellcasts, or focus your team's healer(s) for a rapid intervene.

SpellAlerter helps take care of worrying about incoming spellcasts, but it's still handy to focus that mage or druid to be ready for an incoming sheep or cyclone. Likewise for focusing your healer to protect them from a burn or to help you get out of a dangerous situation in a hurry.

As for not taking Critical Block, the crit bonus is not nearly enough to convince me to take it. I'd much rather have 2/3 Puncture, especially since I'm going to be getting free Shield Slams from Devastate spam, anyway.

I cannot see putting more than 52 points into Arms, because any more than that and you won't be able to get the important abilities out of Fury (Piercing Howl) or Arms (Stance Mastery.)

Magnuss
10-19-2008, 04:01 PM
I have been PvPing as prot since the first few minutes of the patch going live (and a little on beta) and have found myself to be as close to an unstoppable force as there is. The spec i chose is my PvE spec which means it doesnt have the spell reflect, vigilance, or cruelty built into it. The difference with my power in PvP comes from how i have stacked my gear. I favored any gear that gave me block value (other then my T6 pieces) and wear the autoblocker and corens lucky coin. Using the macro to pop the trinkets and shield block i am capable of getting a shield slam crit as high as 8200 (done on a level 70 priest in T4/T5). Combine this very core and constant damage (thanks to S&B) with the dispell and spell reflection, you are capable of downing any class/spec combo in the game. Gear and skill plays a HUGE part in how well a prot warrior can perform and with a healer we are able to take on upwards of 7 or 8 enemy players at one time. One of the key things to remember is to use your cooldowns. 5 minutes on last stand and shield wall means that when you are an inch away from certain death you can come back and hold them off for another 20 seconds at least, and then do it again the next time you see that group.

For anyone who really wants to dive into the protpvp scene i would recommend checking your gear choices for block value and the doing duels with every class and spec you can imagine to figure out the best way to beat them. Its one of the most refreshing experiences ive ever had as a tank.

Yarock
10-20-2008, 07:48 AM
The servers have been too laggy to seriously try it yet - but what are some good arena comps for a prot warrior? Giving up MS really really hurts - but being able to lock down the healer in addition to the other versatility could make up for it.

BTW I love it - yes stack shield block value but even with just a couple of SBV pieces and the rest brutal/guardian gear I still have 800SBV from all of the strength on the gear! If you got some seriously lucky RNG you could charge in, concussion blow crit for 2k, shield slam crit for 6k, thunderclap crit for 2k, then as soon as their stun is up you get a shockwave crit for 4k. Add in whatever devestate/heroic strike/revenge damage you've got and you could potentially do 15k dmg before your poor target regains control of their character. I haven't used mocking blow yet - but I hear that can be a decent dps boost if used properly as well.

Kazeyonoma
10-20-2008, 09:12 AM
I've been running 2v2 prot warrior/resto druid and albeit against ret paladins we're having some trouble (who isn't) but against double dps and against even other healer/dps we've been winning merely by my ability to stick to the healer non-stop, warbringer makes it almost impossible to drink so overtime they end up running oom and I win, even if I don't have an MS.

Another viable option I'm looking into is running rogue/prot but I haven't found a rogue nor do I want to ditch my druid.

we beat a mage/rogue team pretty easily last night for 26 points xD

and in BG's i'm like the ultimate flag defender, Last stand, shield wall, shockwave, tclap, etc etc I was able to top the charts in KBs, Kb/Death ratio, and overall damage.

Kyrra
10-20-2008, 10:40 AM
Is there an addon to watch Stun DR for a Warrior? I know rogues have StunWatch, but is there a generic version (or warrior version) that will help us balance our Stuns?

I've tried all 3 trees since 3.0 came out and I'm really like Prot for PvP. I still would like to revisit Arms to test that out (as I did it with the Bleed idea in mind, which doesn't seem to work all that well). But Prot has been great fun in duels and BGs.

Nyd
10-20-2008, 11:38 AM
This weekend was frustrating at best. The servers seemed to feign death no matter what I tried doing most of the weekend. I learned very quickly Saturday that the most frustrating thing for any melee class in pvp has got to be lag.

I did manage to do a little bit of Prot + Ret Paladin though and it become obvious pretty quickly that with Prot's ability to shut down one of the two people in an arena and Ret's ability to wtfpwn everyone else that Prot is going to be viable even in 2's. Granted we still have to see how it plays out at 80, but I'm realisticly optimistic for Prot in Arena play.

Hopefully things are a little more stable tonight.

Kyrra
10-20-2008, 01:11 PM
This weekend was frustrating at best. The servers seemed to feign death no matter what I tried doing most of the weekend. I learned very quickly Saturday that the most frustrating thing for any melee class in pvp has got to be lag.
Arenas have been like this since 3.0 launched. From reports, arenas on Beta were and still are just fine, but something about this patch roll out made Arenas suffer from some pretty nasty lag. I wouldn't be optimistic about it being fixed tonight. Just queue up for skirmish fights once or twice a night to test the lag out.

Kazeyonoma
10-20-2008, 01:15 PM
I didn't have any lag arena'ing this weekend, I've got a guide coming up soon with Bloodwraith so hopefully we can share ideas once I've got more concrete stuff posted =]

Brucimus
10-20-2008, 01:27 PM
I went out to the BG's this weekend as a Prot and omg I had a good time

I used a more standard tanking build but I mixed and matched in some pvp gear...the armory isnt working but this is what i was wearing
Mainhand Swiftsteel Bludgeon - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32943) or Talon of Azshara - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30082)
Shield Bulwark of the Amani Empire - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33326)
Head Mayhem Projection Goggles - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34354)
Neck Guardian's Pendant of Triumph - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35135)
Shoulders Merciless Gladiator's Plate Shoulders - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30490)
Chest Hard Khorium Battleplate - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34377)
Belt Guardian's Plate Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35161)
Legs Unwavering Legguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33515)
Boots Guardian's Plate Greaves - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35146)
Hands Brutal Gladiator's Plate Gauntlets - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35067)
Wrists Bracers of Eradication - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30057)
Rings Seventh Ring of the Tirisfalen - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30028)
Rings Vindicator's Band of Triumph - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33919)
Trinkets Shard of Contempt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34472)
Trinkets Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600 - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29387)
Cape Dory's Embrace - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33484#).


One on one with a Rogue was a joke...they had no chance unless they did that new move that takes your shield away from you. if they do simply disarm them back and shockwaye and wait to get your shield back
One on one with Arms Warrior was easy too
Melee classes were pretty easy in general...except Retnubs
Moonkins are bad news now...ouch I can only spell reflect so much
Priests are much easier imo now then when i pvp as Arms...nothing says loving like dispelling that silly shield and having two nice stuns and occasional revenge proc



Initially I was out there with my regular tanking gear but I found the pvp gear's resilience to be better then defense and HP

If you have any kind of heals at all you can hold 5 enemy off trying to cap a flag for a long time.

My stats with this get up goin are kinda cool
1927 Unbuffed AP
29.21 Crit
14200 HP
17600 AC
763 BV
211 Resilience

Magnuss
10-20-2008, 01:40 PM
I've been running 2v2 prot warrior/resto druid and albeit against ret paladins we're having some trouble (who isn't)...

Kaze, im not sure what spec you are rolling with or what kind of gear level you are using in your arena but perhaps i could help out your ret pally problem. The thing i have found with them is that they are the current kings of burst damage and alot of their damage is magic based, so armor doesnt help. Luckily for prot warriors we have 2 abilities that can seriously disrupt a ret pally's chi. Our shield slam dispells the buffs that they put on themselves which by itself starts cutting into their usable rotation. Then when you spellreflect, the pally may be able to get off a good series of attacks on you but chances are he is going to knock something back on himself. I have to say if you can predict when the burst is about to hit then hit spell reflect right then. Worst case you reflect his own stun back on him and best case he nearly kills himself with his own hits.

Overall i would say that if you are doing arena and spec into the imp spell reflect then you can keep your healer up through the burst as well. I would say it is very key to get those shield slams on the ret pally frequently. If he is tearing up your healer then breaking from who your current target is to get a dispell on him and a reflection off your buddy will usually give you a nice edge.

Obviously there are some very skill ret paladins out there (ive ran into 2 so far) who know not to blow their load in one strike for exactly the reasons mentioned above. Regardless, unless the ret pally/team seriously outgears you, you should be able to keep them in check with the right maneuvers.

Kazeyonoma
10-20-2008, 01:43 PM
oh no, ret paladins weren't killing ME, they were killing my druid lol.

And i wasn't spec'd optimally for pvp prot, i didn't grab imp spell reflect, if i had that i probably could've saved my druid from him, but I feel ya on the surviving thing. I was able to protect my druid plenty by intervening, disarming, dispelling Avenging Wrath (LOLWINGS!), stunning, it was pretty good overall, but I think with imp spell reflect and a 40sec cd on disarm when I spec better will make me even more defensively good for my team.

Pizzashark
10-20-2008, 08:54 PM
You're better off wearing regular PvP gear and being less reliant on your shield slam. At 70, maybe shield slam is amazing and all you need for DPS, but at 80, people are going to have more HP and more abilities to avoid burst instagib deaths.

Your high Armor and high base HP make you far less reliant on Resilience, but you still need plenty of it. You absolutely cannot PvP at the higher end without at least 350 Resilience - you'll eat too many crits. Spell Reflection can't always be blown on something relatively meaningless - you could use to it to avoid the incoming shatter combo, but then that mage will just turn around and sheep someone on your team, since he now knows you can't protect them for the next 10 seconds.

Likewise, you can't simply spam Shield Slam, particularly in a 1v1 situation. Priests and Mages both have shields that will deny you Rage generation, and if they're doing their job properly, you won't have a ton of Rage in reserve. You have to make sure you have that 17 Rage for the Shield Slam when they bubble, so that you at least have a chance of destroying the shield and allowing your Rage generation to go uninterrupted. Maybe things have changed, but I seriously doubt that a decently geared Priest or Mage will die in the first fifteen seconds to a Protection Warrior, increases to DPS or not.

As for Arena, I did good things with a Feral Druid buddy prior to 3.0, and I doubt the combo's gotten any weaker with 3.0. Lack of a healing debuff hurts, but against physical DPS teams (either DPS/DPS or DPS/healer), you can usually win the mana war, simply because neither of you is gonna take much damage from physical DPS of any kind.

Syana
10-21-2008, 03:28 AM
All pvp gear, all the way with the exception of the Shield and maybe trinkets. Hope you all got a Coren's Lucky Coin to go with Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600. They don't share a cooldown. :D

With regular pvp/arena gear, I have 35% to crit. On top of that, your Devastate, Heroic Strike, Cleave, and Shield Slam all gain an additional 15% to crit. Your main attacks will obviously be Devastate and Shield Slam. So why not go for more block value? Because the burst damage you can do with Concussion Blow and Shockwave is too awesome with all the AP and Crit from the full pvp gear. Both can easily crit for 3k+ on mail armor or less.

Go for the quick kill with Concussion Blow and Shockwave; you still do awesome damage with Devastate and Shield Slam. Even without the extra Block Value gear, Shield Slam can still crit for 2k+. Yeah, with the extra BV gear, you might see huge shield slams now and then but you also lose the ton of crit.


P.S. Apparently the [item] tags don't work anymore. Seems I've been away from this forum for too long. ><

Syana
10-21-2008, 03:47 AM
Recommendations for Glyphs:

Glyph of Hamstring (2/3 Improved Hamstring without being an Arms warrior)
Glyph of Rapid Charge (Being able to charge and break root/snares every 12 seconds = awesome)
Glyph of Charge (5 extra yards on Charge + Rapid Charge + Warbringer = double awesome)
Glyph of Battle (Not many good options for minor glyphs)
Glyph of Bloodrage or Mocking Blow (Not many good options for minor glyphs)

Pizzashark
10-21-2008, 04:10 AM
I'll be doing Blocking, Last Stand, and probably Hamstring for my major three.

My minor three will probably end up being Charge, Bloodrage, and Thunder Clap.

I can't justify Rapid Charge, because of the stun DR timers. If that's fixed, it will probably replace Hamstring.

Syana also mentioned a good point about the PvP gear I somehow overlooked - the crit. It also bears mentioning that you'll get a shorter Intercept timer as well.

I'd recommend your medallion and the autoblocker for trinkets, though you could sub in the coin while your trinket's on cooldown if you're so inclined.

Syana
10-21-2008, 08:26 AM
The rapid charge is for root/snare breaking and the rage not the stun. Your targets are gonna become stun immune regardless because of concussion blow and shockwave and intercept.

Also, if you are a Human, you can totally go autoblocker x 2!

Kazeyonoma
10-21-2008, 09:41 AM
Syana just link directly from wowhead for items, item links were removed due to 40% server stress =x

Magnuss
10-21-2008, 10:03 AM
You're better off wearing regular PvP gear and being less reliant on your shield slam. At 70, maybe shield slam is amazing and all you need for DPS, but at 80, people are going to have more HP and more abilities to avoid burst instagib deaths.

Your high Armor and high base HP make you far less reliant on Resilience, but you still need plenty of it. You absolutely cannot PvP at the higher end without at least 350 Resilience - you'll eat too many crits. Spell Reflection can't always be blown on something relatively meaningless - you could use to it to avoid the incoming shatter combo, but then that mage will just turn around and sheep someone on your team, since he now knows you can't protect them for the next 10 seconds.

Likewise, you can't simply spam Shield Slam, particularly in a 1v1 situation. Priests and Mages both have shields that will deny you Rage generation, and if they're doing their job properly, you won't have a ton of Rage in reserve. You have to make sure you have that 17 Rage for the Shield Slam when they bubble, so that you at least have a chance of destroying the shield and allowing your Rage generation to go uninterrupted. Maybe things have changed, but I seriously doubt that a decently geared Priest or Mage will die in the first fifteen seconds to a Protection Warrior, increases to DPS or not.

As for Arena, I did good things with a Feral Druid buddy prior to 3.0, and I doubt the combo's gotten any weaker with 3.0. Lack of a healing debuff hurts, but against physical DPS teams (either DPS/DPS or DPS/healer), you can usually win the mana war, simply because neither of you is gonna take much damage from physical DPS of any kind.

The points you made are absolutely valid. At 80 the entire scene changes and those "overpowered" specs and classes will equalize to a good degree. Once again at 80 resil will be a saught after PvP stat with the STR and crit coming in good proportions. Chances are that by 80 the prot warrior will have scaled to still be very dangerous in PvP but far less of a machine as it is now.

To your point on mages and priests. I personally rely very heavily on the shield slam becuase of its ability to completely eat through the shields of the caster classes. there has been many occasions where mages have effective dodged me for almost half my health by rotating their cooldowns to keep me at bay or make me hit a shield. Currently at 70 however their shield is still fairly simple to break through and all it really requires is the rage from a charge. Also keep in mind that if you spell reflect a good sized hit from a mage, he knocked his own shield out which gives you pleanty of room to tear him apart. I would say i have faced quite a few very skilled mages in PvP and in a 1 on 1 scenario they really dont stand a chance against a well played prot warrior. The gear is a huge factor in this (as is always the case with us warriors) but our talents are built very nicely to be able to counter virtually every class.

EDIT: except resto druids... if you cant 2 shot them... you pretty much cant kill em without help... damn druids...

Yarock
10-21-2008, 11:10 AM
Any suggestions for the ideal main hand weapon? Fast/Slow?

I wish now I hadn't blown my BG honor on the 60 crit trinket I still need to buy the new pvp cloak and now perhaps a one-hander with resilience.

Rudolf
10-21-2008, 11:20 AM
I'm having a blast in BGs as 0/8/53 http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZhxZMIdrgbzibIdsGo (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZhxZMIdrgbzibIdsGo) right now but I'm going to switch both shield spec points into Improved Bloodrage tonight.

My reasoning is that those 5 additional instant rage points would allow me to put up spell reflect from scratch .

Whenever a pally is running towards me, I know his next move is HoJ but I rarely have the initial rage to reflect it. I think most of them don't really pay attention to the SR animation so it shouldn't be too hard to pull off.

So, just because of spell reflect, imp bloodrage might be a huge asset.

Nyd
10-21-2008, 11:27 AM
Any suggestions for the ideal main hand weapon? Fast/Slow?

I wish now I hadn't blown my BG honor on the 60 crit trinket I still need to buy the new pvp cloak and now perhaps a one-hander with resilience.


I've been using a slow mainhand (2.6ish) - I'm actually using Rod of the Sun King currently. Prot pvp being what it is you get far more benefit from larger devastate hits with the slower main hand than any benefit you'd get from a faster main hand and being able to (maybe) work in a heroic strike.

Kathvely
10-21-2008, 04:01 PM
I have never been a huge pvp'er only pve, with the recent changes I am having a blast in 2v2's. I use near full pvp gear mix of brut/veng/Guardian, Bulwark shield, Dragonscale longblade, and t6 pve belt. Not fully set on my gear choices but its a decent mix.

I run with a feral druid so we push the limits of my survivability/control and use his pounce/dps to rip through classes. We havn’t pushed up that high in the ranking yet, but I find the duo less demanding on my dps and more of a skillfull placement of ability usage. A lot of the dps teams are run and gun dps teams and we burn them down fast. Healer/dps teams take a little more time/skill.


Short Strat: Paly + Any Non-Paly VS Prot War + Feral Druid
Palys are a little rough but controlable and killable. I charge the paly and hold his attention for a few seconds. Palys being DPS drunk will always go for the quick kill. Trink out of the first stun ALWAYS. Depending on the 2nd class I rotate through a few controlling abilities... ShockWave (early only 20 sec cd), SS (debuff), reflect on casts, stack up my sunders, and ShieldWall around 60-70%. I save my concussion blow.

About 10-20 seconds into the fight, I call for my druid to pop out of stealth and have him open up on the non-paly (most stealthers will gang up on me by this time but its a waste if i have SW up).

At this moment, I disarm the Paly and go on a rotation of every stun and controlling ability starting with Shieldbash then concussion blow ...... ending with a ShieldBash again to silence (3sec). Just estimating, I think i have around 15+ seconds of sproadic or full casting/dps control. I havnt confirmed but I have been informed palys cant bop out of silence. Due to my druids burst dps and my survivability we almost always force a fast double bop or end up with an almost dead boped paly wondering what happening to his dead teammate. Sometimes I can catch the paly with my silence (its luck). If he gets off the double bop we try to cyclone the non Paly to counter heals. Clean up time. A lot of the fights end with me near or close to death (LS). My druid saves his trink for the possible 1v1 with the Paly and he has an excellent record. My druid teammate has even taken out a 2 ret paly team after my death. The only team we have had problems with doing the strat is a lock/paly. An early Metamorphosis a strong counter to our makeup. ***Have your druid watch for the possible rez! ***Watch out for pre Bops on mages.

** Edit a NE trick I was informed about combining an Intimidating Shout + Shadowmeld to force a dropped target… "similar" to a hunter FD. Has anyone tried this?

Kathvely
10-21-2008, 05:11 PM
The points you made are absolutely valid. At 80 the entire scene changes and those "overpowered" specs and classes will equalize to a good degree. Once again at 80 resil will be a saught after PvP stat with the STR and crit coming in good proportions. Chances are that by 80 the prot warrior will have scaled to still be very dangerous in PvP but far less of a machine as it is now.


I agree with your comment but prot wars should try to not go down the dps dps dps road and play to their benefits.... dps/control/protect/survive. Even if the current changes scale we will be a force in arenas imo. From a 2v2 persepctive, a dps at our side will fill a perfect balance against dps/dps teams and dps/healers.

Pizzashark
10-22-2008, 12:55 AM
The rapid charge is for root/snare breaking and the rage not the stun. Your targets are gonna become stun immune regardless because of concussion blow and shockwave and intercept.

Also, if you are a Human, you can totally go autoblocker x 2!

Still think it's a weak Glyph compared to the other available ones. Last Stand is amazing... your 5 minute lifesaver cooldown is now a 2 minute cooldown and yet still retains its primary purpose - keeping your ass alive long enough for that heal to land. This could be from someone else, or it could be from you with a bandage, potion, or enraged regen.

Between PH, hamstring, and Warbringer, I really think that if you're having issues staying close, you're either being completely outplayed or the class/spec is specifically designed to screw over melee (Hunter Survival is a good example.)

Pizzashark
10-22-2008, 01:09 AM
I agree with your comment but prot wars should try to not go down the dps dps dps road and play to their benefits.... dps/control/protect/survive. Even if the current changes scale we will be a force in arenas imo. From a 2v2 persepctive, a dps at our side will fill a perfect balance against dps/dps teams and dps/healers.

There are only two kinds of players in PvP: DPS and healers. With only a handful of exceptions, every DPS class has at least some degree of control available to them, and likewise most healers.

Just by using a shield you're guaranteeing that your rate of survival is going to be much higher than that of any other player, excepting maybe an opposing Feral Druid in bearform or a Protection Paladin (which you'll still never see.) PvP gear is already chock full of Stamina, that's increased by Vitality, and you're already going to have a ridiculous amount of Armor from your Shield and the Toughness bonus. You have a flat 16% damage reduction from all incoming spell damage to protect you in that regard, and you have just as much Resilience as any other Warrior. You don't need to gem or enchant for survival.

Control is inherent with the Protection spec. Warriors already have a limited degree of control as base class capabilities (intercept stun, intimidating shout, disarm, hamstring), and going deep Protection just gives you more (revenge stun, concussion blow, shield bash silence, heroic throw silence, shockwave) of that. You don't need to gem or enchant specifically for it, though you may want to pick up the Hamstring glyph, assuming Arms Warrior tears don't wash it down the drain.

You do, on the other hand, need to gem and enchant for increased DPS. As mentioned, the durability and control is inherent to the spec - DPS, however, is not. Prot does more DPS now than it ever has in the past, but it's still significantly behind both Arms and Fury in DPS, and even moreso if those specs decide to adjust their loadout purely for even more DPS, which they're likely to do in many cases.

You need to be filling those red sockets with Bold cuts, because you need the AP. You need to be socketing those yellow sockets with Smooth cuts, because you always need to have a lot of crit to compete against enemy Resilience. Those legs need a Nethercobra kit because you need the AP and the crit. That hat better have a Glyph of Ferocity on it and your shoulders better be sporting Greater Inscription of the Blade or Greater Inscription of Vengeance.

Why do you need the DPS? Well, aside from the fact that you can't win if you don't kill anyone, in order to make any use of that higher durability, you have to get people to attack you. Players aren't stupid like raid bosses - they will actively target the weakest, most vulnerable players on your team and ignore you, no matter what you say about their mothers or how pretty your threat rotation is. You have to convince those enemy players that you are the greatest threat, not that Priest. You do this by using your class abilities to force them to a point where they have no choice but to do something about you.

Decide what player(s) on the enemy team are the greatest threat to you. Go after those players, and never, ever let them get away from you - you have Warbringer, Hamstring, Piercing Howl, Intimidating Shout, and a boatload of stuns. If they're a healer, don't let them heal. If it's a Mage or Warlock, deny them those shatter combos and don't let them use Sheep or Fear. After they start losing games because your interference with their CC or healing cycles caused them to lose people, they're going to start taking you seriously and start doing something about you. This is how you protect your teammates, not by acting like a player is a raid boss and that just by being there, they'll automatically attack you.

Stop treating PvP like it's PvE.

Pizzashark
10-22-2008, 01:21 AM
To be more specific about gearing:

Head: PvP. Meta gem should be Eternal Earthstorm Diamond (+5% SBV, +12 DefR.) Red slot should be Bold Crimson Spinel, if you can afford it. Bold Living Ruby if you can't. Enchant should be Glyph of Ferocity.

Neck: PvP. Yellow slow should be Smooth Lionseye. Again, use a Dawnstone if you can't afford an epic gem.

Shoulders: PvP. Enchant should be Greater Inscription of the Blade or Greater Inscription of Vengeance, depending on what faction you're for. You really don't have a viable excuse to not be exalted by this point with how readily available gold is and how easy it is to farm.

Back: PvP - preferably Dory's Embrace, which ironically is a badge item. Enchant should be 12 Agility.

Chest: PvP. Red slot should be Bold Crimson Spinel, yellow slots should be Smooth Lionseye. Enchant should be 6 Stats.

Shirt: Rich Purple Silk Shirt or Master Builder's Shirt. Accept no substitutes.

Tabard: Guild Tabard, Stone Guard's Herald, or Knight's Colors. If you're wearing an SSO tabard, I'm going to come find you and beat you with a 2 liter of Mountain Dew.

Wrist: PvP. Yellow slot should be Smooth Lionseye. Enchant should be 12 Strength.

Hands: PvP. Enchant should be 15 Strength.

Waist: PvP.

Legs: PvP. Armor kit should be Nethercobra, or Cobrahide if you can't afford it. Do not use Nethercleft or Clefthide!

Feet: PvP. Enchant should be Boar's Speed, or just plain Minor Speed if you're broke.

Ring: PvP.

Ring: PvP.

Trinket: Medallion of the Horde, or Medallion of the Alliance, rare or epic version. If you want, you can use a mod like TrinketMenu to automatically sub in a different trinket (Coren's Lucky Coin comes to mind) while your Medallion is on cooldown.

Trinket: Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600 (or Coren's Lucky Coin.)

Weapon: PvP or PvE, sword, axe, or mace. Enchant should be Mongoose or Executioner. You decide if you want more crit some of the time or more armor penetration some of the time - it amounts to much the same thing. Executioner looks better. Go for a slow speed, 2.40 or better. Higher damage ranges translate to stronger Devastates. Do not use a Dagger - they're normalized for 1.80 for attacks like Devastate, compared to an axe's, sword's, or mace's 2.40. Daggers mean less damage on Devastates, which in turn means less overall DPS. Fist weapons are normalized for 2.40 last I checked and are acceptable, but look ridiculous.

Shield: PvP or PvE, depending on ilvl. PvP shields tend to have the high stamina, block value, and Resilience you want, but since armor (and base block value) is based on ilvl, there are plenty of fine PvE shields to choose from, too. Try to avoid Defense Rating and other PvE stats if you can, and go for things like Hit Rating and Block Value if you go with a PvE shield. Enchant it with Tough Shield, +18 SBV.

Ranged: PvP, thrown. Guns and bows take too long to prepare, and have a much longer cooldown between shots. You won't be using your ranged weapon often, but the rare times you do, you want to be able to use it and then keep moving immediately.

jlafleur
10-22-2008, 05:31 AM
Back: Gladiator's Resolution replaces Dory's Embrace. Available in 3.0.2. 20k honor plus AB marks.

The Gladiator's Resolution - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41592)

Trinket: Might consider the new Battlemaster's Resolve. 120 AP all the time which helps Revenge, Shockwave, TC, devastate, Concussion Blow. Available in 3.0.2. 35K honor plus AV marks (I think).

Battlemaster's Resolve - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41589)

Boot Enchant: Cats Swiftness or Boar's Speed. Pain in the butt without it since I switched out my runspeed meta for +5% SBV.

Last Stand might be good WOTLK but isn't available right now.

Lunestone
10-22-2008, 07:02 AM
You might also wanna address what kind of weapon you're using, as I asked in another post... I was curious whether Brutalizer or Dragonstrike would be better... Kazeyonoma said he still thought Brut was the way to go, I still have yet to try the Dragon but my friend said he thought a harder hitting weap was the way to go.

But yeah, i'm very excited about all the possibilities... i've hardly ever pvp'd but was having a blast the other night, my friend said, "Lune's got the taste for blood guys...." :p

Squashed
10-22-2008, 07:04 AM
Anyone thats protPvP'd since the patch have comments on entering rage starvation by not being attacked?

I've attacked a traning dummies to simulate this, and I'm nigh-useless. Does warbringer help mitigate this? Will people learn to not attack you?

Aeritides
10-22-2008, 07:06 AM
I don't plan on ever taking critical block, because I seriously doubt any melee class is going to be capable of doling out a 2k non-crit attack, and - as far as I'm aware - a blocked attack cannot crit, period.

It also adds 15% to crit with shield slam though, and shield slam is an ever increasing chunk of your dmg.

veneretio
10-22-2008, 07:14 AM
PvP will always be about burst damage and as a result, we're far better off with as slow of weapon as possible (2.6-2.8 speed) especially since it'll increase Devastate's damage as well. The best Prot PvP weapon atm may very well be The Decapitator despite it's relatively lackluster dps. It's slow enough to still have impact and the added burst potential provided by the usage is simply unmatched by any other weapon in the game currently.

Magnuss
10-22-2008, 08:30 AM
Anyone thats protPvP'd since the patch have comments on entering rage starvation by not being attacked?

I've attacked a traning dummies to simulate this, and I'm nigh-useless. Does warbringer help mitigate this? Will people learn to not attack you?

Yes i have run into this on quite a few occasions where someone decided i wasnt worth the time and started laying into my healer and completely ignoring me. The few options you have available to you are to use your charge to generate rage for a shield slam. Killing someone who is screwing with your healer is important. You can also get the revenge glyph and if you are specd properly into deep arms your revenge will only cost 2 rage. that is 2 rage for a hard hitting revenge (and possible stun) and a heroic strike. this isnt going to guarentee you enough damage to affect them but you need to determine what you want to do with the target you are chasing. If he is going to kill your healer in a couple of seconds, then build the rage necessary to stun lock him. Warstomp, intim shout, conc blow, possible revenge stun, etc. Do what you can to get him away from your healer. Ideally the target will turn and do something to get you off of him. This is what you are waiting for. If he stuns you then it gives you distance one you break out of the stun to charge. If he does any kind of attack he is feeding you the rage you need to continue to CC him or kill him.

Basically the key is to either force the target to be unable to reach his objective (like your healer), or force him to think you are far more of a threat then the person he is attacking. Both of these objectives dont require a full rage bar and if you can get lucky the can require as little as 2 rage. just dont be ancy by hitting buttons that arent going to do anything. Devastate might be able to proc a S&B but its alot more rage then revenge is, with half the benefit.

Squashed
10-22-2008, 09:08 AM
If you assume worst case that they completely ignore you and you cannot revenge then all you have are white attacks and charge generating rage you're going to be stuck.

After thinking for a bit, if you adjust your group composition for PvP such that you have offensive minded healing (boomkin possibly) or straight DPS with survivability (retadin / rogue) you may be more effective. You certainly can't run healer/prot-war and hope to be effective. (they will pound your healer).

I do really think something needs to be done regarding the D(iminishing) R(eturns) on current warrior abilties. They all appear in my limited 'testing' to all share DR. IMO charge/intercept should be linked to each other, shockwave & conc. blow get linked but only to each other. Revenge should be completely independent as it is uncontrolled. Any comments on DR?

Rootkitworm
10-22-2008, 10:03 AM
So are you saying I should buy the vendor pvp blues over my ZA/Badge/T5 PVE gear? That seems like it would be a downgrade of some sort. I don't PVP much, but I would like to start now :)

What should I do, here is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stonemaul&n=Rootkitworm)

Kazeyonoma
10-22-2008, 10:14 AM
well now your talking about dropping in Ilvl items for pvp purposes.

That doesn't make sense, now if you were going from Za/Badge/T5 pve gear to comparable level pve gear (namely season 2 which you can buy with honor) then yes, you'll see a larger benefit in the pvp gear than pve.

Nyd
10-22-2008, 10:33 AM
You might also wanna address what kind of weapon you're using, as I asked in another post... I was curious whether Brutalizer or Dragonstrike would be better... Kazeyonoma said he still thought Brut was the way to go, I still have yet to try the Dragon but my friend said he thought a harder hitting weap was the way to go.


It depends to some extent I think on race. Being dwarf I am favoring hammers now. I use the slower speed, harder hitting Rod of the Sun King from Kael. It's a leftover piece from my dual wield devastate days and is still enchanted with Executioner, although I question executioner to some degree now. It's something I am going to be examining heavily this week.

There will be some updates coming to the guide in the enchant and glyph sections tonight as I work through the updates.

Zoft
10-22-2008, 12:11 PM
I'd like to point out some basic good and bad matchups. I'm limited on time ATM so I have only read the OP.

Rogues - Very good matchup for PvP Prot. They practically kill themselves on us. Specific concerns revolve around them dismantling us and bursting us down before dismantle wears off.
Suggestions:
Intervene away after a dismantle.
Intimidating shout to buy some time.
Burn Defensive Cooldowns. Other then shield block.

Hunters - Fun match up. We can basically ignore their pet as it will do the least damage to us or Prot pallies. And it gives us rage.
Suggestions:
Try to reach them without burning charge so you can save it for the disengage. Or Charge their pet to get close without putting them on DR.
Spell reflect then run into their freezing traps. They won't get frozen in my experience, but it blows the trap.
Their pets usually feed you revenge procs too!

Mages - Very fun matchup. If they get a burst on us without us doing anything about it, they can kill us. If we get ontop of them we give them nightmares. More so then anyone else.
Suggestions:
As with hunters try not to blow charge. Charge and Intercept are both useful for catching them after a blink. Many Mages will blink in response to us hitting them with Conc Blow.
It may be possible to mount up if they iceblock to allow yourself to close distance faster.
One of the matchups where you want a PvP trinket. Warbringer isn't enough if they frost nova you and stay in the charge deadzone. Hitting the trinket will get you to them faster. Consider carefully how you will counter frost nova.

Priests - With Berserker rage in defensive and battle we can really stick to them.
Suggestions:
Don't try to blow all your stuns and silences needlessly. Catching them healing works better as their instant heals are somewhat limited.
Saving Shield Slam to hit their PW:S may be a viable tactic. It may also be a wash if they are loaded to the gills with buffs.

Druids - Varies greatly with type
Moonkin Suggestions: Stick to them and realize that unlike damage shield Thorns goes through armor. They can output great magic burst and are thus dangerous like mages. Typhoon can be countered immediatly by warbringer.
Feral: They also practically kill themselves on our damage shields however do not underestimate the power of their bleeds. They can output a lot more damage now, and can bleed kite us.
Resto: Watch their targets and their hand movements. In group PvP you need to lock them down at the right time to make their healing targets die. Stick to them like glue and they will burn a lot of mana trying to get away.
Druid suggestions in general: Roots may cause similiar problems as frost nova.

Warriors- Always interesting is facing other warriors. Prot gives us an adavantage against our brethren.
Suggestions:
Disarm is your friend for the disarm. Shield block is also your friend here.
Against other PvPProt it's going to be interesting.
Varies with the targets skill to be honest. Few PvP arms or Fury wars will swap to Defensive to disarm in my experience.
Try to catch them in Zerker stance with a stunlock. Toss in a disarm and any allies around nuking the warrior will just gib him.

Pallies- It varies
Prot suggestions: Try to ignore/save to last. If they are healing lock em down.
Holy: Lock down. Save your silences and stuns for when they try to heal.
Ret pallies: Fun fact. Berserker rage removes Repentance. Otherwise Disarm is your friend. Until they are nerfed down from PvP burst all holy damage god mode your job is mostly to lock down their damage output long enough for them to be burned down. Also a blow cooldowns target.
General: Swap targets if they Shield. Its better to be over 8 yards away when it wears off so you can intercept them.

Warlocks- With warlocks having less defensive abilities at 70 its interesting. It may change when they get Demonic circle.
Suggestions:
Don't trinket deathcoil. Rage the fear that comes after. Consider saving your charge/intercept for after coil.
Spell reflect is great.
Depending on pet you may be able to gib them with a prot burst. Or they may feed you revenge procs. It varies so much.
Lockdown if they turn into a big demon.

Shamans- Varies
Enhancement should be treated like arms wars and ret pallies. Lots of damage output that a disarm kills.
Elemental is interesting. You want to spell reflect chain lightnings if you can.
Resto is similiar to holy pallies.
Lightning shield is like thorns.


Just some specific food for thought. I feel we have an advantage over physical damage dealers.

Magnuss
10-22-2008, 12:54 PM
Nice post Zoft, good suggestions on all i think. Would also be good to point out that whenever other melee classes are trying to combat you, try to keep your front to them as often as possible. This is really kind of a "given" but you would be amazed how often people slip and dont think about it.

Pizzashark
10-22-2008, 09:24 PM
Anyone thats protPvP'd since the patch have comments on entering rage starvation by not being attacked?

I've attacked a traning dummies to simulate this, and I'm nigh-useless. Does warbringer help mitigate this? Will people learn to not attack you?

People won't attack you unless they consider you a bigger threat than the healers or other DPS... or they're stupid.

If you aren't getting Rage from being attacked, you need to practice proper Rage conservation. Don't blow your Rage meaninglessly if you know you aren't going to have a lot of it. Save Bloodrage (and Charge now, maybe) for times you need that Rage in a hurry, spell reflection being the most common use for it. Always have Rage for a Shield Bash, and if you're expecting them to cast a spell, try to leave your GCD free - nothing sucks more than missing that Flash Heal because you used a Devastate just before they started casting.

Charge, Intercept, Concussion Blow, and Shockwave all share a single DR timer - it's possible to Charge, CB, and SW all together for less total stun time than a CB on its own. SW and CB do pretty solid damage in addition to the stun, of course, so it's a bit of a decision whether you need the damage or the stuntime more. Revenge stun is on its own, separate DR timer. To my knowledge, all Warrior stuns in the same DR group are shared among multiple Warriors. I'm not sure how stomp or other classes' stuns factor into this, but I think it generally works out that all controlled stuns are one DR, and all uncontrolled stuns (Revenge stun being an example) are in another. I'm not sure about Kidney Shot and Cheap Shot... last I remember, they were on separate timers shared only with other Kidney Shots or Cheap Shots.

I don't plan on taking Critical Block because I can't find the points for it without sacrificing more important abilities. The best I could do would be to turn 2/3 Puncture into 2/3 Critical Block, and I frankly think that a 10 Rage Devastate is superior to 10% more crit on Shield Slam.

Yay
10-23-2008, 02:31 AM
Just a quick question, does imp spell reflect means theres 1 charge for EACH of the party member? Or just one that shares with all? Would be difficult to use if its the latter since it can be eaten up so easily...

I have to say it's an excellent read on the overall gearing for pvprot, I am using a mix of pve/pvp here. Altho I lose a fair bit of avoidance(which rocks agains rogues/huntards/feral) when using strictly pvp gear...

/yay

Rudolf
10-23-2008, 08:20 AM
It's one shared by all I'm afraid. A few people go 1/2 in imp spell reflection to gives themselves a bit more control. Otherwise, all you can do is try to time it as best as possible.

Trogdore
10-23-2008, 08:31 PM
Thanks for this information. pvpin prot before the patch was pretty much impossible, but now i cant seem to get enough satisfaction driving people nuts by being a literal tank. I guess i never really noticed that imp spell reflect effect people in my party and those around me. Now i can see when an enemy is casting a spell against me is there a mod to see hows casting what when what where?

Pizzashark
10-23-2008, 09:42 PM
Thanks for this information. pvpin prot before the patch was pretty much impossible, but now i cant seem to get enough satisfaction driving people nuts by being a literal tank. I guess i never really noticed that imp spell reflect effect people in my party and those around me. Now i can see when an enemy is casting a spell against me is there a mod to see hows casting what when what where?

SpellAlerter works alright, but it can be a little spammy. It shows you who is casting what, but not who they're casting it at... you can set it to only show enemy spellcasts, and it's safe to assume that if the Mage is casting Sheep, it's going to be targeted at a party member.

I do have to ask, though... why in the world would you take Improved Spell Reflection if you weren't aware that it affects you entire party? That's the entire reason for taking the talent... the puny 4% spell avoidance is hardly worth it.

As far as I'm aware, you only get the one charge, but with the cheaper Rage cost, it's not a bad thing. Just means you need to be much more aware of your opponents, which is necessary for higher-level arena play, anyway.

Yay: You may be losing avoidance, but you're gaining crit and probably AP, too, which affects all of your opponents, not just stupid melee players ;) The +15% crit from talents doesn't hurt, but considering full Resilience is about 15%-16% reduction... you still need high base crit :)

Yay
10-24-2008, 12:29 AM
Thanks for the advice, tried some pvprot last night with more pvp gear oriented and a slower weapon and I have to say the result is pretty good, now sitting at 20% crit and 1.9k ap while still wearing quite a few tank piece. The mix and match of gear will make the pvprot v interesting :>

Only annoying thing is there's just not enough talent points to spend around on :<

Anyone know how I can make a macro for revenge and heroic strike? and will only use the latter if first is not available? (for the glyph obviously^^)

/yay

Brokegritz
10-24-2008, 05:44 AM
New to the board and stumbled upon it trying to find some information about shield slam (calculating the amount, outside influences on damage output, etc.). While I'm on beta, I didn't even touch prot there simply because I was spending all my time on a death knight

Anyway, recently I've been 'hummin and hawin' over to play my warrior or druid first when Wrath hits, but I suppose that's a different subject (and yet not because I tried out prot on warrior and fell in love with the brand new game play).

So with that in mind, here are a few of my thoughts:

As someone mentioned, burst will always be the way to go in PvP. Decapitator imo seems to be the way to go to that end (mentioned as well). Currently I'm using the Headless Horseman's Blade which is useless in Arena, but great in world PvP and BG. Popping it on stealthed enemies is priceless since the pumpkin see through stealth. Do NOT pop where guards will attack though <sigh>. And most certainly don't pop them near guards after you've learned not to do it from the first time you did it <double sigh>.

I'm convinced 0/8/53 is the way to go. What do we need or want to stance dance for? Revenge isn't worth it (non-talented, and with a 1-H). Beserker Rage is usable in defensive stance. Your only real options possibly worth a dance would be Hamstring and Intercept, both of which only need 10 rage. On the other hand, the eight points in Fury can give some great burst. Concussion Blow, Shockwave, Thunderclap are all based on AP, so SoA adds nearly as much damage as Battle Shout (I carry around 17K armor). In fact, the only thing I think that isn't effected by AP is Shield Slam, and while Shield Slam is a huge chunk of your damage, I think if you get too caught up on seeing how big you can get it to hit, you can really hinder yourself from a great burst potential of a ConBlow/SS/Shockwave instant ability chain.

Talented correctly in the prot tree along with Cruelty, you end up with 20% crit to many of your abilities just from talents. I run a glyph of Heroic Strike for this mere reason. A 2 rage crit Heroic Strike (with Focused Rage)?? Yes please! Combine with Glyph of Revenge and you end up with 10 rage, for free! Again, burst.

Continuation of what I've said, I don't think Autoblocker/Coin is the right trinket choice. Go with an AP trinket, something that effects more than one skill. Stop limiting yourself. I'd almost go as far as to say that Savagery would be the correct weapon enchant for more consistancy because all of your abilities save one are AP effected/based. That's a point I would have to test out before I'd say without hesitation though.

Thoughts? Issues?

jlafleur
10-24-2008, 08:04 AM
Retaliation and Recklessness are two other very good reasons to stance dance. Remember the 30-minute-now-5-minute abilities share a separate CD (other than you can't use two at the same time).

Brokegritz
10-24-2008, 08:51 AM
Retaliation and Recklessness are two other very good reasons to stance dance. Remember the 30-minute-now-5-minute abilities share a separate CD (other than you can't use two at the same time).

I didn't realize they had removed the shared cool down. Touche! :D

Retaliation would be situational and sub par (unless you use stancesets to switch to a 2H when you go to battle stance maybe?). Recklessness is the bees knees though. I'd stick with 0/8/53 and just start an arena match in beserker stance. God I love warbringer.

Anyone ever see the 2v2 Shockadins video? Seems like 2 warriors could do something similar to that in 2's. All a matter of timing... haha.

Kazeyonoma
10-24-2008, 09:09 AM
I think it should be noted that they removed the shared overall cooldown (5min) there is a sort of "uber skill gcd" that goes into play while you activate them. Meaning you can't pop all 3 at once by hitting one, stance dance, hitting another, stance dance, and hitting another. The first effect must end before the 2nd one can be put up.

No OP Shield Wall/Retaliate macros to pull entire instances =(

Kathvely
10-24-2008, 09:29 AM
Currently I'm using the Headless Horseman's Blade which is useless in Arena, but great in world PvP and BG. Popping it on stealthed enemies is priceless since the pumpkin see through stealth.


I havnt been able to confirm this. Anyone? If these guys can see through stealth and last for 30 seconds, that is a decent ability to use at the start of an arena.

Heroic Strike Questions:
I have noticed a lot of people specing into and using Heroic Strike. It was posted that due to the chance savings a HS will only cost 2 rage or 1 rage. Because of the higher chance to crit you will be doing more damage but you are losing the rage gained from white damage. Your actual damage is close to [HS damage – Normal Swing damage]. If you don’t crit you just dumped rage for the sake of dumping rage.

I only use a revenge / heroic strike macro (free HS + 10 rage on chance) I never directly use heroic strike nor do I spec for the extra crit. I find myself with pretty good rage-control but I have not fully tested if my dps suffers. Any thoughts? Do any think HS is just a lackluster rage dump similar to tanking in pve? Do any forgo HS in order to devastate spam and proc free shield slams?

Brokegritz
10-24-2008, 10:00 AM
I havnt been able to confirm this. Anyone? If these guys can see through stealth and last for 30 seconds, that is a decent ability to use at the start of an arena.


You can't activate the sword in arena sadly. I'm at work, otherwise I'd go find a random duel to confirm it, because the one time I ran into a rogue in world pvp, I could have just been lucky.

kshar
10-24-2008, 10:43 AM
I'm a pve specced protwar in BT/MH/Sunwell gear: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Grim+Batol&n=Kshar)

Since Patch day i have been spending quite sum time making up for 2 years of slow and painfull deaths in pvp situations as a prot, and killing the shit out of horde on isle of quel'danas (excuse me if spelled wrong)

I so far has not had any probs killing any class thats not a healer, ele shammy's and moonkins and in sum cases skilled retridins are a tougher fight but usually won.

With as good as 20 k HP i've had scenarios of killing 1 up to sumtimes even 2 hordes when bein attacked by 3 of them. Offc i know that most of ehm farming dailies there dont have the best gear.
Even so u do occasionally find a fellow ganker from the other side in good if not better gear s4. This hasnt happen that much though i won most of the times.

I dont really do arena so i cant say much bout it, alltough i am pretty sure that 20k HP (wich i most likely will have with a kings or fort and CS) 1k AP and 850 SBV (not shown on armory :( ) making 2,5 - 3k SS crits on armored classes (even with resi - s4 geared it will be just below 2k) Shockwave critting near 2k or above makes up for the mass amount of STR on S4 pvp gear offc u miss out on the crit though.

As for resilience; Defense rating giefs me 6,5 % less chance to be CRIT and HIT (+2 % less change to be hit as nelf :P) yes theres still more chance to crit me as then i'd be in s4 gear but that is bein covered by less chance to be hit. The crit dmg reduction is covered by the much higher HP then on pvp gear. Also on melee classes dont forget to add the mass amount of parry dodge and block (wich wont work when yer stunned)
Only +point of resi is that it reduces mana drains (lol? mana ? :P) and dots. Wich would only really matter on affi locks, wich are so easy to lock down.

Basically i think pve gear equals if not overcomes s4 gear on a melee based encounter. On casters i agree resi and thus pvp gear is still king.

Btw me aint gonna gear pvprot spec untill i'm lvl 80 and dual spec has arrived. Also as solo in world combat i rly dont miss the more pvp talents in prot.

Btw 2 to all those that think stance dance is required to stick on, dont forget that shieldbash dazes the target again as it was pre patch. 6 sec duration vs 12 sec CD but 6 secs should be easily to overcome.

1 question remaining does hamstring shares same CD as shield bash and piercing howl (both faze affect) or are they both on the same diminishing snare DR ?

Soz for the wall of text and prob under average english.

Pizzashark
10-24-2008, 09:22 PM
Some things regarding recent posts:

Stancedancing for Revenge is always worth it, if you have it talented. It's a significant amount of damage now, particularly on targets weakened by Sunder, and it's a stun that doesn't share timers with your other stuns. Plus, it's only 2 Rage. It might not be worth dancing for if you don't have the talent, but you literally have no reason not to take it, even if you're focused purely on PvE content. There is no other place in the entire Protection tree that those two points can be better spent, unless you're screwing up your spec somewhere else.

The Big Three do indeed share a duration timer, but the cooldown timers aren't linked. You can't be under the effects of more than one at a time, but you can chain them back-to-back if you're so inclined. The changes are about two years overdue, but better late than never.

I personally almost never use Heroic Strike in PvP. Properly glyphed and specced for it (Incite, Focused Rage, Improved Heroic Strike, glyphs of Heroic Strike and Revenge), it could become a powerful source of damage, but I can't see sacrificing so many talents and glyph choices for such an ultimately lackluster source of damage. I'd rather save my 12 Rage for something else in most cases. Because Heroic Strike eats a weapon swing, denying Rage generation for that swing, it'll never be free... just more and more efficient. You can get it to the point where it'll have a -1 Rage cost (9 Rage cost, +10 Rage on a crit), and could conceivably set up near-infinite "free" Heroic Strike chains (Revenge gives you a free Heroic Strike which crits, granting you 1 Rage, rinse, lather, repeat), but it'll still gut your Rage generation. I personally think that there are better options for both talents (Incite is worthless for PvP if you don't plan on making extensive use of Heroic Strike, but is amazing for PvE) and glyphs (Glyph of Heroic Strike seems more like a DPS glyph and Glyph of Revenge reeks of PvE focus), though I've been told many of the nicer glyphs won't be available till post-70.

I've been using my autoblocker forever, but I do have the AP trinket from Direbrew banked, and may give it a shot when I get a chance to play. Another alternative would be a Battlemaster's trinket. The loss of block value will hurt, but the increased damage from other sources may make up for the loss.

With regards to kshar's post:

20k HP is excessive for PvP. I don't think you'll realistically ever find yourself in a situation where you need or want more than about 13.5-15k base, though that number will certainly go up as gear ilvl improves - I'd wager we'll be breaching 22k base HP in season 5 gear.

1k AP is extremely low. Your Armory is showing you in pure PvE gear running a PvE spec, so I'm not gonna use that. I was rocking 1.6k base AP in blues and a couple pieces of S2 in the week leading up to 3.0, and I have no idea where I'm at now, since I can't check for myself, but I'm probably close to 2.2k or 2.4k with AttT... I'll have to have a friend log in and do my talents up so I can armory myself and check. PvE gear does have STR, which makes it suck a lot less, but it doesn't have nearly enough. Less Stamina, more Strength!

20% base crit is also fairly low, though acceptable if you're in terrible gear like I'm in. In full S2, socketed and enchanted properly, you could reasonably expect about 30% crit or so, base. In S4, you might be able to get it to 35% or more. All depends on what level your gear is and how much money you want to spend on enchanting it.

Defense Rating is not a substitute for Resilience in any way, shape, or form. I'm can't say for certain, but I'm fairly certain that PvP combat tables are not like PvE combat tables in regards to Defense... otherwise, wouldn't we basically autocrit on people 10 levels lower, and never crit on players 10 levels higher? Not to mention Armor in regards to level differential.

Beyond that, Resilience also reduces the amount of damage you take from crits, as well as damage taken from dots. That's pretty important... you'll be able to reach somewhere around 31% damage reduction from magic-based dots while in defensive stance if you're at the Resilience cap. Pretty nice, eh? Because we rock plate and a shield, our need for Resilience is far lower than that of, say, a Priest's or Mage's, but we still need to have a decent amount. Holy Pallies get away with low Resilience for similar reasons - high Armor already makes crits hit for fairly low amounts (even in my blues and S2, I think the hardest MS I ever took was something like 1.1k, and that was from a full S4 warrior sporting both shoulders and weapon), so the real reason for Resilience is to reduce the impact from magical damage... and in the case of Holy Pallies, mana drains.


Basically i think pve gear equals if not overcomes s4 gear on a melee based encounter. On casters i agree resi and thus pvp gear is still king.

That's not far from the truth... the huge amount of avoidance (dodge and parry) you'll get from PvE gear will give you a significant advantage in terms of reducing damage taken, but also keep in mind that PvE gear does not have DPS stats on it (the STR there is there purely for threat generation), so your outgoing damage will probably go down just as much as your incoming. PvE gear might be good for duels, but I'd never use it in BGs, arenas, or when I'm running around picking fights somewhere.

Near as I can tell, Hamstring doesn't even have a DR timer. I know I've read it does, but I can spamstring all day and it still lasts the base 10 seconds. Maybe it's referring to the root effect of Improved Hamstring/Glyph of Hamstring? Hamstring is not classified as a daze effect, and so Heroic Strike won't get the damage bonus from Hamstring.

Piercing Howl is a daze effect and will grant the bonus damage. Same with Shield Bash Daze.

Kazeyonoma
10-25-2008, 02:40 AM
Just went 8-2 in arenas and the 2 had ret paladins in em =P

spec'd 0/8/53 and it worked wonderfully.

Yay
10-27-2008, 09:17 PM
Can you explain a bit more on your encounter?

On another note, I am now quite keen on dropping incite for puncture, since I do miss the 9rage devastate, and rage is still an issue if you arent focus fired :<

/yay

Voltaik
10-28-2008, 05:05 PM
My resto druid and ret pally friends and I (prot, 0/8/53) went from 1500 to 1891 this weekend and only stopped because we ran out of time. We went 39-12 with many of the losses actually coming before the druid re-specced resto, as he started by playing around with feral unsuccessfully. We are easily going to get a much higher rating as soon as we can get some more time in the arena.

PvProt is a ton of fun and a hugely skill-rewarding spec to play.

My advice to others interested in pursuing this spec, is that your job is to ensure survival of the team via crowd control and damage prevention, and open the way for a killing burst of dps also with crowd control and damage amplification.

Having immediate access to shield wall and spell reflect, along with talented last stand, will keep you alive through burst situations. Believe me, many teams will wrongly try to burst you down and these abilities will keep you alive even through today's highly burst-oriented PvP.

Stuns are powerful but especially so when you switch targets to avoid heavy diminishing returns penalties. The silence on Shield Bash and the fear from Intimidating shout and the "crowd control" from disarm are all ways to disable the opposition that DON'T effect or and are not penalized by your stun diminishing returns. Mix them in to great effect.

Sunder Armor + Talented Disarm (+10% damage debuff) is your finishing move. After stacking sunders throw Disarm and other crowd control (like shout or concussion blow), and combine with a call for focused physical dps from teammates and even popping recklessness+shield slam on your part and things will go down.

Things we can look forward to: Heroic Throw as a silence will add ANOTHER great crowd control ability and Glyph of Devastate (along with Puncture) will allow for rapid sunder stacking. The next 10 talent points will enable even more great things, like impale for greater burst while still having AttT.

I'm also planning on playing with a 8/0/53 build or something similar for stance mastery and/or imp charge, I'll post how that goes.

Bloodwraith
11-08-2008, 07:19 PM
I think you might want to check your stance mastery spec. It doesn't include Imp revenge, which you state right below is critical to Prot PvP.

Iazy
11-09-2008, 12:58 AM
would you recommend a pvp shield or a high end pve shield for pvprot? Also, as a pvprot warrior, would I want to get a pvp one hander, such as the vengeful cleaver for example, or would a decent pve one handed do?
I'm just asking because currently my "pvprot set" for weapons consists of king defender and iron oak shield, and sometimes after I throw up my spell reflect macro, I forget use my zerker/2h macro, and the damage I do (around 1.2k ms) is comparible, but falls short of, the damage I put out with gorehowl. My guess is that you would go for the pvp we for the more ap/crit/resil you get from them over the pve one handers, where all you get is defense rating and stam (mostly), but I just want to make sure as I have nver actually tried pvprot but am considering it with the melée range dificulties I've been experiencing on my nelf as arms

p3zst
11-09-2008, 05:09 AM
I rolled a warr, specced arms to lvl and got bored and stopped playin wow up until a few weeks b4 patch as a 48. pvProt is the single greatest spec in wow. i have never had so much fun on any toon. Stunning and silencing and just pure war bringing i feel energized switching targets. as everyone has said. mobility is sweeet.. and with WotLK bringing all the new elements to pvp i dont think i will ever respec unless blizz changes it which i doubt. i dont play alot of wow im not a pro. i think pvp is awesome because i dont have to spend alot of time getting places i am lazy in wow. when i get to 70 and then eventually 80 i will pure PVP. I am grateful to prot changes, as i finally explored the tree and will not be rerolling for the millionth time.

why is tactical mastery so unpopular? is it not useful for popping retaliation, SB, recklessness, cleave/ww, SS, revenge type combos. stances are what make a warrior such a great class to play imo. hooray for dks too they gun be cool.

btw thank you for the guide(s) pizza i like your input i feel my play style resembles yours more..

jlafleur
11-10-2008, 10:51 AM
Tactical Mastery isn't unpopular --- it would be nice to have with an unlimited number of talent points --- but it really isn't a necessary talent for prot pvp. Charge is useable in all stances with warbringer mitigating dumping rage the few times you actually need to stance dance (retaliation, recklessness, hamstring and intercept are all I can think of). About the only time I choose to stance dance is for intercept. Not to mention that you only have 10 points to play with at this point in time if you put at least 51 in prot. Those points are probably better spent elsewhere than allocating eight in arms to get 3/3 tactical mastery. If you do choose to activate recklessness, then try to move away from your target, activate it, switch back to defensive stance, charge back in.

Vistigoth
11-11-2008, 03:16 PM
GOD I LOVE PROT PVP!!!

Since I have that out of my system now, I have a couple of questions..

Since 3.0 Im 48-61 in duels as PvE geared prot and 4-6 my first week ever in arenas (2's with a PvE T6geared/specced survival hunter, neither of us having arena experience and yes, there may have been late night alcohol consumption involved). Our basic strategy was me charging in off the bat, getting everyone's attention, and letting the unnoticed hunter go batshit crazy on the squishier of the two.

Okay, what should I be trinketting out of. Cyclone, kidney shot and HoJ are obvious, but what about the other classes? Trinketting a snare/frost nova/trap seems a waste since charge/intercept/intervene are almost always availible. Zerker rage/spell reflect and interrupts counter a locks fear really well. When should I be trinketting and when should I just wait it out.

Next question is what classes should I look for for 2's partner-wise? Do I want a healer that can DPS or a DPS with some form of MS capability or a control class that compliments a prots annoyance factor?

What can I do about limiting the amount of time I spend with stuns on DR? Between charge. intercept, shockwave, conc blow and warstomp, 30 secs into any duel, my opponents are close to, if not already immune

And lastly, for anyone with beta experience, how well does warbringer and piercing howl mesh? I was looking at this combo at 80 for arenas.

And thanks to everyone here on the forums for what I've learned the past two years about tanking. This really is the best class forum I've seen.

Vist

Saturday
11-11-2008, 04:20 PM
I personally wouldn't trinket a kidney shot unless I was dismantled at the time simply because a good rogue will Blind you and reset the fight if you waste it then. If Dismantled, totally different story because a rogue will burn you down fast and living through it is more important than the reset.

Piercing Howl gives you the "hamstring" in defensive stance option which means you don't have to worry so much about the rage loss from stance dancing to hamstring which in turn means you don't really 'need' tactical mastery.

There's not much you can do about the DR's, it's the only other real drawback to prot pvp other than the lack of a MS debuff. I believe the DR reset time is 15 seconds? That is, from the last stun that produced an effect to the time you will be able to stun them again is 15 seconds regardless of whether you use a stun on them during that time that doesn't actually stun them (I'm so articulate :P).

I would say if you can avoid it, don't Charge your focus. If there are two people beside each other, charge the one you won't be focusing. This includes pets. It means you have the full duration of either Shockwave or Concussion Blow on your focus.

I would personally group with a ret paladin. Seal of Command on your stuns + Emergency Heals + BoP on yourself or the paladin's bubbling will annoy the hell out of anybody. Not to mention Blessing of Freedom :)

PrimeTime
11-18-2008, 07:58 PM
Just a question on TM for prot pvp, rekn its worth it to put in at least 1 pt into it for the 15rage spell reflect while stance dancing?

Although, it is perfectly possible to have bloodrage available while stance dancing... 10 rage from stance dance + 10 rage from bloodrage.

Kazeyonoma
11-19-2008, 11:10 AM
yes, 1 point in TM is pretty good move, I did it during one of my ProtPvp Arena weeks and it proved fairly useful.

Pizzashark
12-03-2008, 01:08 AM
Maybe things are different now, but I prefer not to be reliant on Bloodrage, so I'd say at least 1 point of TM, if not the full three. It's not like getting improved rend and 3/5 along the way are gonna hurt you, anyway, right? :)

EDIT: Some elaboration:

This (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LcbzZGx0oZihzrgfzidIdoGo) is the talent build I'll be running at 80. Explanation:

Arms

I hear Rend is quite good now, especially as an opener. We'll use Savage Gladiator's Pummeler as a weapon (because everyone knows hammers own) and arbitrarily give our hypothetical warrior 2500 AP self-buffed. The pummeler has an average damage of 338 rounded down, and our AP gives us another 464 damage on top of that rounded down. With Rend 10 doing 380 base, this gives us (380 + 338 + 464) * 1.20 / 5 = 283 damage per tick. If the target's above 75%, you'll do 439 a tick. Not bad for 10 Rage.

Deflection is a no-brainer, and 1/3 TM gives you 15 Rage for spell reflection on stance dance.


Fury

Cruelty and Armored to the Teeth are about as simple as they come. It's more DPS, pure and plain.

Piercing Howl gives you a snare that doesn't require stancedancing and the 10 yd range is longer than Hamstring's. It can also be used while disarmed.

Booming Voice is purely personal choice, but you need 2 trash points to reach PH.



Protection

I don't get Incite because I don't use HS or Cleave in PvP, and Tclap will never be a damage skill. Anticipation is tanking trash.

The next two tiers are self-explanatory. If you plan on doing only 3's or 2's, you only need 1/2 Improved Spell Reflection. Puncture is a VERY strong ability. 9 Rage Devatates are very efficient.

I took Vigilance because I had a point left over. It's an undispellable bonus 3% DR for whoever, and perma-Taunt will make Hunters cry when their Devilsaur continually tries to pound on you instead of the clothie, regardless of what they tell it to do.

I do not know if I will be keeping Damage Shield. It's very powerful, but no one with a brain will try to mix it up with a Prot warrior over literally anyone else but perhaps a Prot pally. If I dump it, I'll probably pick up 2/3 Critical Block.

cdweller0
12-03-2008, 04:31 PM
I really like that build, it is really similar to what I wanted. For Tactical Mastery, you plan on being in berserker stance a lot? I don't arena, so I can see dancing to berserker being really useful if you're not focused. Just curious as to how you use that stance mostly.
If the target's above 75%, you'll do 439 a tick. Not bad for 10 Rage.Just a heads-up: there was a lot of good discussion today on Rend at elitist jerks and one of the things that came up is that with improved rend, the rend tooltip currently reads 90%, not 75%. It's being tested. It's obviously the wrong behavior, but it could be malfunctioning currently if it's not a typo.

It does not really take much to get a target below 75%, heals tend to happen after that, but what is really getting me excited is a mouseover macro for opponents I am not currently focusing on.

Pizzashark
12-03-2008, 09:52 PM
I'm not sure if there's much reason for Berserker Stance anymore, beyond Intercept. I saw 3.0 brought Berserker Rage to any stance, so I finally won't have to stay in zerker to break out of psychic scream on priests and gouge on rogues. I just don't see taking 10% more damage as a good reason to ever be in zerker outside of quick flips to intercept.

I take the one point in TM so that I've got the freedom to dance, even if I don't expect I'll leave defensive very often. I've never been keen on relying on Bloodrage for spell reflection; I prefer to pop it for a shield slam against a priest/mage bubble.

Falcon213
12-05-2008, 06:45 PM
My build. (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVMbZGx0oZic0rxdzibIdsGo)

I've been using this build lately and it has been quite good. Melee is no problem, of course, but even casters can be dealt with pretty simply. Imp Charge is very useful, as rage generation vs. casters is the biggest problem with any prot build. Also piercing howl is quite good as it means the only time you ever have to change stance is for the rare Intercept - which is important as once again rage generation is the largest caveat.

I've messed around with the 2 points in Iron Will a lot, and they can be put in other places, such as Imp SR or even 3/3 Puncture (if you really want).


Gear-wise, just go for Strength/AP and Stam. Gem for Strength and Stam. Crit is not going to help you anywhere near as much as raw AP is. For weapon, go for Titansteel Bonecrusher (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41383) unless you can get better from Naxx (probably not if you're tanking it). As for a shield, your best tanking shield will have to make due until the new PvP gear comes out.

Pizzashark
12-08-2008, 10:16 PM
I can't see any build without Last Stand. Was that a mistake?

I just don't think I want to spend points into Improved Charge; not unless they remove the stun. While I'm sure it's a handy source of Rage, I've never had Rage issues as long as I'm taking some hits, and the issues with diminishing returns give me headaches :P

Incite is a personal choice, I guess; I never, ever use Heroic Strike in PvP since it's so inefficient. Taking Incite without Improved Heroic Strike seems pretty silly, since Incite is worthless unless you use HS a lot; and if you're gonna be using it a lot, doesn't it make the most sense to increase its efficiency as much as possible?

Lack of Improved Thunder Clap seems strange; 20% melee slow isn't something to scoff at.

I can't see any reason for not taking at least 1/2 Improved Spell Reflection, unless you're adamant on totally ignoring arenas. The ability to protect teammates from directed spells without burning an interrupt cannot be overstated.

I also see that you don't have any TM; while stancedancing is less important now (not a good thing, IMO!), I still feel it's important to be able to spell reflect on demand regardless of stance, so I'd recommend at least 1/3.

I can't see Iron Will be worth a damn unless you're an Orc. 20% off a small amount of time still results in a short amount of time. Of course, 45% off is pretty noticeable.

I also see literally no reason to socket for stamina over crit or strength. By your very nature, you are already hard to kill, and anyone with a brain is going to ignore you over virtually any other target. PROTECTION IS ALREADY HARD TO KILL. SOCKETING AND ENCHANTING FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN DPS IS IDIOCY. Sorry, but I'm very firm about that point, because I saw people running around in tank gear for years and then complaining about having problems killing people. Duh?

Brainwreck
12-16-2008, 04:25 AM
Are you guys experiencing better survivability in pure tank gear or actual arena gear with resil?

PrimeTime
12-16-2008, 05:33 AM
Funny enough, lately I've been pvping in FULL tank gear and been having really good success defeating all classes.

For shi*ts and giggles, the OT and I done some 2v2 skirmish together both as prot and it was major lols cos we were winning the majority of matches especially where other melee was involved. The biggest difficulty was against classes that could heal each other. The biggest lol was against a priest and mage combo where we kept chain spell reflecting as we went to town on the priest while intervening each other when we got feared off.

Brainwreck
12-16-2008, 06:34 AM
Funny enough, lately I've been pvping in FULL tank gear and been having really good success defeating all classes.

For shi*ts and giggles, the OT and I done some 2v2 skirmish together both as prot and it was major lols cos we were winning the majority of matches especially where other melee was involved. The biggest difficulty was against classes that could heal each other. The biggest lol was against a priest and mage combo where we kept chain spell reflecting as we went to town on the priest while intervening each other when we got feared off.

Yeah, i mean in theory i would think you would have the most survivability in a full tank set. The high avoidance means melee classes would have a real hard time against you, while you could effectively reflect/interrupt/stun a caster.

Kathvely2
12-16-2008, 01:58 PM
Are you guys experiencing better survivability in pure tank gear or actual arena gear with resil?

Pizzaguy touched on this a little and I agree/disagree with him.

Depending on how far you are pve progressed I think pure tanking gear even with stam/avoidance gems is >> then the craftable/pvp gear pre arena patch. It’s even better then some of the mid level PvP gear. But, eventually a switch will have to be made. I mainly only 2v2 and I see myself using my main tanking gear with a few dps plate items for around a month.

Resilience >> then defense for PvP. The pure tanking gear PvP band-aid will not last forever. Eventually you will have people running around with stupid amounts of resilience and our tanking gear will not suffice in damage.

PrimeTime
12-16-2008, 03:51 PM
Well without the Resilience DoTs did hurt a bit!

In any case, we had very little crit anyway or DoTs, so it wasn't something we were relying on. I'm planning to pvp in pvp gear when I get it anyway but pure tank gear just seemed to outperform the crafted pvp gear that we did have anyway.

The simple fact last night was that 30k hp each with last stand, enraged regen, shield wall, safeguard, endless health pots, lifeblood, etc is tough to burn through. DPS was pretty avg tho.

Pizzashark
12-17-2008, 03:29 PM
It's like it was before S2 in TBC, when folks weren't rocking much HP or Resil. When people start gearing up, tanking gear won't get you anywhere, except laughing at melee when they can't even land a hit.

Of course, you won't be able to kill them, but at least you can make them waste ten minutes trying to kill you.

Kathvely2
01-08-2009, 12:50 AM
I listen to a lot of bs from my raid leader and get laughed at..... but I can duel palys, dks, druids, and even mages. I have yet to have a winning percentage on prot palys. Where is the prot war feedback in arenas?

I am pve'r at heart but love to pvp. In 2's I have played with a DK(1620), a tank druid (1590), a prot war (1650), and a ret paly (1630). I am not good. I try, but I understand that pvp and pve is not the same and I jump teams because I love the fact that prot is now viable. I hit all of the scores above by playing around or with guildies in 10 - 15 games. Duel wise I have won 269 lost 173. Can anyone post some solid success and not theory?

I dont agree with the prot war dps dps block value kill ideals in the arenas but i am very open to anyone that post some solid success.

If you can catch me as pvp:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mug%27thol&n=Kathvely)

Our ability to survive, silence, and stun while dpsing is key. If you catch me in full prot gear i normally pvp in "honor gear". Meaning non set items... neck, trink, ring, cloak, bracers...

Kazeyonoma
01-08-2009, 11:18 AM
running with a healer is actually not a bad idea, especially a healer who rarely runs oom. I ran with a druid and myself as prot at the end of season 4 and we broke 1850. without MS fights take longer but most of the time, once a big burst is put on my druid and we survive it, it's just a waiting game for me to kill them and get stun drs ready.

Therotos
01-08-2009, 12:23 PM
So I've been trying some protection pvp and things have been going really well overall. But I do have some questions.

1. How do you kill a healer, even if i time my stuns and silences perfectly, i still can't get through their heals during that time. I am able to kill pretty much any dps spec in 1v1, but healers are my undoing. Protection Specs are 50/50, even though they're rare.

2. I'm trying to decide on a spec for when dual specs come out, and this seems close to what I'm settling on. I usually don't stance dance very much other than for intercept, so tactical mastery doesn't seem that worth it.

3. What gear do you think would be best for a protection pvp spec, would it be block value/str gear to maximize shield slam's burst? or the pvp set pieces for the extra crit, or tank gear for added survivablity, or a combination of all of these to a balance that seems right?

4. Lastly, what abilities would be the best to use, I'm sticking to shield slam at every cooldown, revenge when i'm getting whacked on, and devastate in between, stunning/silencing/snaring when needed.

Any tips or criticisms are welcome.

Thanks

Kazeyonoma
01-08-2009, 02:15 PM
1) whittle them down don't blow your cds too early, get em fully sundered up via devastate, and keep spell reflect up to scare em, save shield slam for priest shields, but otherwise just unload on him, heroic strike, you might not be able to revenge since they won't melee you, but you'll be able to take em down eventually, priests once fully sundered become easy to kill, put the hurt on em till about 80-60% (you need to get a feel for your burstability) then unload. just absolutely unload on them, shockwave, shield slam, devastate/heroic strike, conc blow, shield slam, devastate, and pray that they die.

2) I haven't really thought about what pvp spec i'd get, chances are i'd go with a variation of the DW spec taking out parry for TM, grabbing piercing howl in fury tree is almost a must, getting improved spell reflect and improved disarm are really good choices, and dropping anticipation might be worth it.

3)pvp set, as much as having high sbv is nice, that's only 1 move out of your entire repertoire of moves, boosting your crit and str will be your top priority, not to mention all that pve gear does nothing against spell casters, so having resilience will be your friend, craft the BS pvp gear if you don't have s4, fill in for realy good best in slots for other pieces from PvE, if you have badges buy the new pvp blues, and try to run just whatever arenas you can (even if you have to lose 10 a week) to buy the starting set, once you are fully decked out in pvp gear even if it's the blue set you'll notice your games take a turn for the better. Warriors are the most gear dependent class in the game, that doesn't change because we're protection.

4) there isn't really a rotation in pvp, it's about situational awareness but what you're doing is right, save stuns for burst moments, the stuns not only cc your target, in pvp they are probably your biggest damage dealer too (i shockwave for over 6k when it crits)

Kathvely2
01-08-2009, 03:27 PM
WALL OF TEXT
1)I sometimes go full out no strats on holy palys and priests.

Don’t concussion blow or shockwave that much at the start of the fight. Shield Slam every chance unless you are going against a priest in which case be a little frugal and save for shields. Build up a full rage bar. USE rend!!. Use regeneration right when you are close to 65%. Don’t stance dance. Buff yourself. Have all of your CD’s ready even shield block. You will usually see a little opening due to laziness or cockiness. Try to consider everything in a 3 second rotation (4-5 max). Every rotation requires a stun, silence, or some form of CC. Bloodrage to keep up the dps spaming as well. I try to use stuns first on palys and then stack my 2 sliences with a fear at the end in order to force a premature panic BOP. If you have free rage, make sure you are randomly reflecting. Healers will run... no surprise. I actually consider it a 3 second rotation in which I don’t chase, heroic throw, charge, then stun while thanking them for the free rage. If heroic throw is down I fear. If they are immune to fear I shockwave. Constant pressure and a perfect juggle of silences and stuns is required. If you fail… you will have enough life left to try a few more times. You should know if you have a chance after your first burst cc/cd rotation.

2) I normally use either a (2/2)Impale (3/3) Deep Wounds or a Piercing Howl Build. You should rethink picking up LastStand. I have won a lot of duels because of it. I havn’t tested it but Regeneration used directly after a last stand should heal you for 39%. As a personal pref I would pick up imp rend aswell. I recommend to everyone to play around with it.

3) I use full pvp gear or highest strength then stam pve gear. When running with another prot war we found that full pve gear was best. You should switch depending on your role and pve progression/gear level. Don’t go out of your way to stack SBV. Consider pvp gear then strength your priority.

4) Practice on the dummies. Build a full rage bar. Try to maximize stun durations. Learn to burst all of your abilities while silencing and stunning but limiting needless overlapping. I started by counting the duration of my silences and watching the stun animations. Repeat about 40+ times.

Random thoughts:
I like to use a slow 1 hander. Use the double sunder per devastate glyph. Get a shield for pvping and put a spike on it. If you use pvp gear try to max strength but try to also get something with +hit or expertise on it. Weapon chain is a very cheep date but HOT. Disarm DKs as soon and as often as you can and thunderclap. Heroic throw palys at the start of duels and spam stuns/silences. Don’t sit in a stun against a paly ever. If you are randomly blowing survival cd’s use them at 50% health. I can take a rogue down to 50% by standing still and taking his attacks. If hexed you can still reflect (possible bug). Spam tab and heroic thrown on rogues.. you can pop them sometimes. Rend on a rogue is certain death. Start in zerk form on mages bloodrage intercept/attack/dance/charge/fear/attack.. the only reason you should die is if you didn’t manage your reflects/stuns and survivability cd’s. In areans 1 point in imp reflect is a very very powerful buff.

Therotos
01-08-2009, 03:36 PM
BTW: This is my tentative spec, and this is my armory just for reference even though I probably don't have pvp gear on.

Marf
01-21-2009, 03:04 PM
PROTECTION IS ALREADY HARD TO KILL. SOCKETING AND ENCHANTING FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN DPS IS IDIOCY.

I was curious about the current (3.0.8) thoughts on gem selection.
I am a fairly casual player and have replaced most of my crafted PvP gear with the honor rewards. I currently have 10 gem slots available and most are filled with some form of +hit to meet the 5% requirement. My crit is currently around 20%, not including talents.

With the 3.0.8 addition of the WG helm reward I am considering dropping the +hit gems and am trying to decide if it makes more sense to use all +16 strength gems, ignoring the socket bonus on gear, or if I should also be looking to add crit.

If my numbers are correct, the all strength route adds about 40 points at the cost of 34 res, 24 stam and 8 crit. To me, that seems fairly straightforward, especially considering the benefit (or lack thereof) that res currently provides.

My real question is where does crit factor into this? I am having trouble putting a value on it. It seems like 16 strength provides more utility, given it contributes to AP and block value.

Any thoughts are welcome.
Thanks.

Veryl
01-22-2009, 08:06 AM
Its kind of a hard thing to declare one more important categorically than the other. Crit affects all your attacks, strength boosts all of them to varying levels. I've found that crits are what really lets you kill people, but you won't get good crits if your base strength/ap/BV are poor.

I guess you could say the quality of your crits matters a lot. A big shield slam followed by not crit abilities is likely going to be more devastating more often than a semi random string of back to back smaller crits since its harder to ensure they happen within a certain window of time.

All that said one thing to consider is that for the most part it doesn't matter what gear I wear while pvping so long as the BV is high and survivability isn't shot to hell. 5-10% crit plus 15% from talents to specific abilities is enough if you hit like a truck from strength, but you may find yourself wanting for crits to kill healers.

Marf
01-22-2009, 08:29 AM
Thanks Veryl.
I have noticed that killing healers, especially disc priests and shaman, is really a challenge. I believe that my biggest issue is a hardcore interest in the game with a casual play schedule.
Gearing seems to be the real roadblock, as block value gear is beyond my reach currently.
My initial thought was that 35% crit was probably enough and that then adding base damage would be more beneficial. My concern is the cost associated with testing out my theory. =p

Drop
02-13-2009, 08:55 AM
I am not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but you can also use pummel now as pvprot. Doesn't require a 2h anymore.

Just another interrupt!

Brymm
02-17-2009, 06:03 PM
Hey all!
<----- new to the forums

I cannot believe how much more useful and focused these forums are in comparison to the WoW or WoWhead forums. It's amazing!

Quick questions!
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Brymm (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Brymm)

I'm a casual (8-12hrs/week) player on a PvE realm. I've been tanking my whole virtual life and recently became very interested in PvP battlegrounds and Wintergrasp. I'm currently using a smatter of Honor Savage gear, Savage Sardonite gear, Heroic tank gear, Epic Wintergrasp stuff and some Emblem tank gear. Swapping here and there can up my crit rating and resilence rating a bit higher but at the expense of some HP and defense rating. The current set up I've had the most success with.
In battlegrounds, I'm starting to finish in the top 3 to 5 of Honor gained in each battlegrounds, which I'm chaulking up to insane survivability and picking my battles. My skills as a PvPer are increasing daily also.

My income has dropped drastically switching to PvP. Along with a steady amount of misc. tank gear that might drop out of heroics and my Emblems that I no longer recieve, I'm surviving on making a single Titansteel Bar a day, which will pay for a decent enchant here and there. I can't really afford to buy the Epic world drops I see floating in the auction house here and there. So with all of that said, I'm trying to collect enough honor and marks to pick up some decent gear.

My quest is to eventually become a Protection Warrior pioneer in Arena. This is a lofty goal because I have never set foot into a rated arena match. But bear with me! Keep in mind that what I'm suggesting and what I'm asking about is related to being a Protection specced warrior in PvP. That might paint some of you in a corner, but please refrain from "Just respec into fury because prot is too weak!" or something like that, because it will just fall on deaf ears.

So I will start with what I've picked up in my honor grinding in the various battlegrounds as Brymm the Orc Warrior:
1. I fear nearly no class.
Ahem, nearly. From what I have read, a lot of warriors fear certain classes or builds of certain classes. From complaints about mages shredding them or rouges chain stunning and dismantling or DKs just being better, I can honestly say that I have found most of it to be a lot of unjustified QQ. Every other class seems to have some sort of weakness that I can exploit with one or multiple abilities, play style changes or just an understanding of when to run and try to get help.
2. Devestate against cloth targets is nuts.
Just as the title says. With five stacks on mages and priests, I've hit some retardedly big Shield Slams. I hear they plan on patching this in the coming patch.
3. Blood Craze is good!
Even with resilence and defense rating, I still get crit all of the time. This gives me life! Bundles of it too. If I get into a melee with bunch of dudes in WG or AB and I manage not to get focused on by the mob of alliance fruitcakes, this skill will heal me an absurd amount through a battle ground, often giving me the most healing done by a non-healer in each battleground I'm in. And if I DO get focused on in messy large battles,...
4. Use your cooldowns!
Wow, the new 5 minute cooldown on Shieldwall is amazing! Shieldwall, Shield Block, Spell Reflect and Enraged Regneration, along with a defensive trinket (if you have one on) and your Blood Craze heals going off like mad, you're one tough Orc to kill. After hitting all of those hot keys, Piercing Howl, fear shouting and running like a burnt goat, Intervening, Charging or trinketing out of snares to the collective saftey of your teammates. Often, a few hell-bent honor-starved alliance drones will chase you in a futile attempt to get the kill, only to be mulched up by your DPS minded allies. You can chuckle to yourself knowing that they were thinking "Oh, a warrior! Easy kill! And he's running! I will just follow him for a second and hit him with this last spell/arrow/stab and *gurggle, gurggle, gasssspp...*"
5. Take advantage of "Easy Kill" mentality!
It is oh-so-common for me to be running about in a battleground or WG alone. Off in the distance, I will make out a floating red set of words, followed slowly by some sort of alliance character phasing into my computers resolution. I imagine they see the same thing, except they see an Orc Warrior.
"Oh, a Warrior! ALONE! HA!"
And they come to me.
I don't know if EVERY Alliance player in my Battlegroup completely wtfpwns warriors, but everyone I come in contact with seems to think that they are about to wtfpwn me. :mad:
Luckily, they don't! :o It's almost like they have no fear whats-so-ever. Rogues will just try to run up and stun me, like they don't even want to bother and stealth. Or mages will just run up and start a frost bolt or a freaking pyroblast. You get the idea. No set up, no foreplay, no planning, just pew pew pew!
Spell reflect, disarm, stun, silence, stun, silence, fear, stun... I've never had a warrior do that to me!
"HK: <insert rank>"
6. Minor Run Speed Increase
I use this + AP metagem. I feel it helps me catch vehicles. Why can't those be slowed at all?
7. Spell Reflect
I have this talented 2/2. Great for having up as much as possible in larger fights, randomly tossing back spells at the baddies, and absolutely amazing in 1v1 against casters, or protecting the flag runner. Has anyone used the random spell reflect gem?
8. Piercing Howl
Has this always had no cooldown? What an amazing ability, you can be the ultimate flag runner or flag helper with this ability, spamming this, spell reflect, charge and intervene.

But blah blah blah, I could type forever about what I think I know, but I'm really interested in what you think you know!
Any protection warriors out there (or anyone with some common sense!) have any input that can help me?
I have a couple of nagging questions.
1. Goofy talents/goofy builds/must haves.
Any talents or abilities that you couldn't live without? Have a build as prot that has really worked out for you? Are you Prot/Arms? Prot/Fury? Prot/Prot?
2. Rage generation against bubbles.
What do you do versus bubbled targets? It seems what gives me the most fits is my sudden drop in rage if my targets get bubbled, either by a priest or that freaking trinket that eats a bunch of damage.
3. Dealing with Ret Pallys.
My QQ. What a freaking class/build. I don't know what Blizzard what thinking, but this class/build seems to have it all, and is the one class/build that I really avoid (I can't usually even get away from these nutjobs when I do end up fighting them). Any suggestions?
4. Any good ideas for arena teams with a Prot warrior? Any success stories?
5. Gear/trinket suggestions?
Any piece of gear that you have that you couldn't do without? Goofy choices?
...
Thanks for reading such a long post! I look forward to sharing ideas and hopefully making others fear the tank!

- Brymm

kemikalkadet
02-22-2009, 05:26 PM
BTW: This is my tentative spec, and this is my armory just for reference even though I probably don't have pvp gear on.

Enrage effects don't stack, so there's no point sticking 5 points in enrage if you have imp. def stance. You'd be better off sticking those 5 points in parry.

nextjin
03-23-2009, 07:15 AM
Even though I am not 80 yet I have been a huge advocate of Prot PvP for some time now and have been prot since pre BC.

I always stacked PvP gear on top of certain large value SBV gear. Never ever stack Stamina, Avoidance, etc.

The same basic stats still apply to prot namely hit rating. Also using the Auto-Blocker macro (or whatever is at 80) along with timing. Disarm, Shield Block, Macro/Shield Slam, etc.

One of the things I always wanted to try at 80 (if I could find another warrior crazy enough to properly gem and spec for it) was to try duel Prot Warriors.

At 70:

300 Resilience
800 SBV
28 Crit (in defensive stance)
2000 AP (unbuffed)
17k Armor

At 70 that was basically a win win other than Ret palies who blew all cool downs with exceptional gear or a select few Druids. I never came across any other class that could beat me.

I'm not sure but I would imagine at 80 it would be the same thing. Key thing to note when Prot PvPing is to make sure you have an even spread across your stats. You just can't totally ignore SBV as it is your burst move.

Anomandaris
04-26-2009, 04:32 PM
Here is a build I came up with after Dual Speccing was introdued. I've had major problems beating Ret Pallies and DKs due to not being able to burn them down fast enough to prevent their healing outlasting my health.

It will look a bit strange at first, and took a lot of respec's to get right, but give it a try and you will see how dangerous it can be.

Arms

Deflection 5/5
Iron WIll 3/3
Tactical Mastery 3/3
Improved Overpower 2/2
Anger Management 1/1
Impale 2/2
Deep Wounds 3/3
Taste for Blood 3/3
Sweeping Strikes 1/1
Sword Specialisation 5/5
Weapon Mastery 2/2
Trauma 2/2
Second Wind 2/2
Mortal Strike 1/1
Strength of Arms 2/2
Juggernaut 1/1
Unrelenting Assault 2/2
Endless Rage 1/1

Fury

Armored to the Teeth 3/3
Cruelty 2/5
Unbridled Wrath 2/5

Protection

Shield Specialisation 5/5
Anticipation 5/5
Last Stand 1/1
Improved Revenge 2/2
Shield Mastery 2/2
Toughness 3/5
Improved Disarm 2/2
Concussion Blow 1/1
Gag Order 2/2

I highlighted Unrelenting Assault and Improved Revenge because this was the focus of the build. Revenge is my hardest hitter in Def Stance with a sword and board, and combining it with a talent that reduces the cooldown from 5 secs to 1 sec makes it extremely powerful, add to that the 50% stun chance and you can imagine how useful it is.

So, to use this, you can forget about using Blizzards one-dimensional Warrior PvP gear, I wanted to be very hard to hit, so I use this with my PvE tank gear (hence the points in Deflection, Shield Specialization and Anticipation).

You will also be fighting mainly in Defensive Stance, switching to Battle Stance when necessary (Charge and Hamstring, and if you are used to it, Shattering Throw).

The points in Gag Order are for your usual healing interrupts, Improved Disarm for obvious reasons and Concussion Blow because it doesn't feel right to fight without it. Also you get Mortal Strike for halving the healing DKs and Pallies recieve.

But using Revenge is what this build is all about. With good tank gear, you can avoid being hit 2/3 times, which will proc Revenge. Now that it has a 1 sec cooldown, you can spam it, as the high damage and 50% stun chance can shutdown (and in the case of Ret Pallies, rapidly lay waste to their health) allows you to interrupt their casts and stop them from running around. Add in Glyph of Revenge (for a rage-free Heroic Strike) and you can do some serious burst damage in a short space of time.

Many of the other talents I've selected were mainly to get enough points to get the highlighted talents, so changing them may improve the build, however, Unbridled Wrath, Anger Management and Endless Rage I would keep, as my first version of this build left me very rage starved.

Also, I have only tested this against the classes it was designed for, so against casters (or anyone who wont melee, ie wont proc Revenge) I have no idea of its usefulness. My suggestion would be switch to a 2 hander and go to battle stance (Charge and Hamstring again), and have a macro to swap back to sword and board to use Spell Reflection when necessary.

Ok, one other note, I've not tested this in an Arena yet, so I have no idea how it will stand up, but in duels with Paladins and DKs I have only lost a few times out of many, and I was drunk for most of those.

If any of you try it out, please let me know how you found it, as this has been the most successful PvP build that lets me fight the way I prefer (ie Tank).

Beghøff
05-05-2009, 06:33 AM
I tried the UA build and I think it's fairly useless in pvp. The the DR on the revenge stun builds up pretty quick, and having it be your main attack is not a good mix. Also without warbringer you're stance dancing constantly which makes this build a hassle and stressful to play. Also, revenge won't proc against casters and so it pretty much shuts you down. Some people could probably make it work but it's not for me.

Rootkitworm
05-10-2009, 10:45 AM
This (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LcbzZGx0oZihzrgfzidIdoGo) is the talent build I'll be running at 80.-"Pizzashark"
1. Pizza, I had some questions and feedback. I like the build, used it, but noticed Shockwave misses half the time due to enemies moving and it's odd conal range where it looks like you would hit them and it does not.

I am going to try a spec without SW, Vigilance, or Safegaurd and wondered what you thought of this build modified/inspired after yours above:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVbd0bZuxooZVhdrgfzibIzoh:pzT0Mz)
or
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVbd0bZuxooZVhdrTsdibIzoh:pzT0Mz) + Shield Wall Glyph

For Glyphs I am thinking Devastate, Rapid Charge, Shield Wall. Pallies and Druids tend to be slippery and run from me, thus I have Rapid Charge to help, also to somewhat "replace" Shockwaves stun. Shield Wall seems like a good option too for obvious reasons. Safegaurd and Vigilance don't hurt the enemy, and while I understand it is a team effort, you don't get Honor for "damage supression" I don't think (maybe I am wrong).


I hear Rend is quite good now, especially as an opener.
2. Do you still still open with Rend? Do you think the Glyph of Rend is worth taking?


Deflection is a no-brainer, and 1/3 TM gives you 15 Rage for spell reflection on stance dance.
3. I don't actually understand what the reason is for stance dancing at all when you can charge and intercept in any stance w/ Warbringer. Would it just be to Execute/Victory Rush/Shattering Throw? With exception of Retaliation and Shattering Throw I don't see reason for ever switching stances out of Defensive Stance, unless I am missing something crucial?


I do not know if I will be keeping Damage Shield. It's very powerful, but no one with a brain will try to mix it up with a Prot warrior over literally anyone else but perhaps a Prot pally. If I dump it, I'll probably pick up 2/3 Critical Block.
4. Did you end up keeping Damage Shield, Pizza? I am trying a spec without that or Crit Block. They don't seem that big a deal.

Thanks

TheruunCael
05-16-2009, 06:49 AM
I'm in the same situation as Byrmm, I 'discovered' the awesomeness of pvp about a month before 3.0.1 hit and became a hardcore Arms spec pvp'er back then, ditched the PvE side of the game completely (probably played about 10 hours of BG's everyday and got my full set of Merciless gear in the first 5 days of my pvp spree, a bit extreme I know). Then 3.0.1 hit and prot became a monster spec, I stuck with it as I leveled throughout northrend and then became one of the guild's main raid tanks. Now I'm starting to turn my eye towards pvp again and I'm also looking at the viability of prot in BG's and arena's. If possible I'd like NOT to put all that sexy tanking gear I got from naxx-25 in the closet, I wanna put it to good use!

Personally I've been having a tough time coming up with an 'ideal' pvProt build, obviously the main role of prot in pvp is locking down targets for dps to finish off. But I want to do some DAMAGE! (preferably without giving up my survivability hehe). so I scrolled through pages and pages of blurb on the wow forums, arenajunkies and mmo-champion and came up with some stats that I believe will set me nicely on the path to becoming a pvProt monster. Bear in mind I didn't make up these numbers myself, I've taken them from various posts scattered about. Also I only have 9.5k kills on my warrior so my pvp experience is not extensive, but I've got a decent idea of how it all works.

These are the stat goals I've set for myself:

Block: +30%
AP: +3000
Crit: ~20%
Hit: 5% (~150 hit rating?)

I'm currently sitting on around 25% block, 3.5k AP, 12% crit and around 6.5% hit. All my gear is currently gemmed and enchanted for pve prot, but once I have 80% of my BV set, I'll swap in my mitigation/threat set and re-gem my BV set for crit and enchant with the usual pvp dps enchants and hopefully that will put me up close to the stats I'm aiming for. Only trouble is actually getting the gear, the other tanks want it too and aren't all that happy with me rolling for gear that is going into my pvp off-spec lol.

The spec I'm looking at is 13/5/53 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVzs0dZ0xZVctrgbzibcdsGo:dob0Mz). I think it's a pretty solid build, the other choice I think would be to spec all the way up for the UR-Revenge build. My alternative spec would be an Arms/Prot Hybrid (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVzIbfczxbrRzMzZ0xZVcdrGbzb:dob0Mz), basically like the spec that Anomandaris posted previously.

BTW Anomandaris, if your reading this, is there a reason why you left 3/3 Incite empty in your build? If your building the spec around Revenge spam and free heroic strikes, surely the extra 15% HS crit would be essential? I would take points out of Anticipation and put them in Incite, but then again I supose your trying to maximise survivability. But I like your spec (but with 3/3 incite), I might try it out and see how it goes :)

For glyphs, I was thinking of either:
Revenge, Block, Heroic Strike
or
Revenge, Block, Rapid Charge
but seeing as Rapid charge is getting nerfed in 3.1.2 to a worthless 7% (1 sec) CD reduction so Revenge, Block, HS is the way I'm gunna go.

As for gear, BV gear doesn't carry any hit rating at all so I'm trying to get:

Weapon: Hand of Nerub (+0.64% hit)
Ranged: Arrowsong (+0.49% hit)
Helm: Valorous Dreadnaught Helm (+1.07% hit)
Trinket: Titan-forged Rune of Accuracy (+2.9% hit)

These items would get me to 5.1% hit and above the 5% pvp hit cap. I could go for the Rune of Cruelty trink for 2% more crit but then I'd lose ~3% hit which is very hard to regain without either replacing an enchant, gemming or swapping BV gear out for +hit gear. Imo I'd rather take the 3% hit and lose 2% crit. I'm trying to maximise BV as well so all the other slots will have BiS BV gear.

I'm not sure about Hand of Nerub over KT's reach or Calamity's Grasp, it has the +hit I need but KT's Reach and CG have much better stats. They're also the dream weapon of every rogue in my guild, of which there are many, so HoN will have to do :P

I'd gem for crit in every socket, +5% BV meta gem (tuskars on boots therefore), titanium plating on shield (therefore accuracy on weapon as the -50% disarms wont stack).

I hope it will work lol. By the time I've got all my gear, gemmed and enchanted, I'll have invested a fair bit of time into the set.

The only issue I think is as more people get Deadly/Furious Glad gear the Resil will make pvProt uncompetitive, however in the pressure role, a prot warrior will always be awesome :)

Anyone have any experience with prot warriors in arena? I'm a noob when it comes to arena, so any info on team make-up's with a prot warrior for any arena bracket would be great! Also I have no idea whether this will work, I've read that it does but never having tried it I cant say for certain.

Magnuss
05-16-2009, 02:34 PM
I would recommend checking the other threads in this forum. Alot of posts are long winded but relevant to the information you seek. Several were recently necro'd from being out of date and have since gotten a bit of a facelift in terms of current specs and ideas. Scroll to the bottom.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f40/45388-prot-warrior-pvp-spec.html

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f40/45889-prot-warrior-gear-pvp-battlegrounds.html

Rootkitworm
05-16-2009, 02:43 PM
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZGx0oZVhprgfdibIzoGo:drT0Mz)

Gonna try this build today, it is basically a full Prot Survival Spec + Piercing Howl. Heroic Strike seems like a bad thing to use in PVP as Pizzashark mentioned above somewhere. I have noticed people in full 25man prot gear with 30k hp running around, but I am going for the PvP Deadly gear, as that makes more sense to me then using all PVE BV gear, or PVE EH or Survival sets. Maybe a few Higher iLevel BV items is ok to swap out over blue PvP gear, but otherwise seems silly.

TheruunCael
05-16-2009, 04:41 PM
Thanks for those links Magnuss, I acually posted here before taking the time to look into the other threads in more detail, doh!. cheers

malfeasence
05-25-2009, 03:57 PM
I have been battlegrounding in Prot, and I honestly love it, it is so much fun shutting down a caster or charging like mad and the Concussion blow, or shockwave. anyways, i look forward to anything else that pops up about PvProts.

austin8705
06-01-2009, 06:14 PM
First of all i am new to site and this is my first post. I have read this thread and have a question about gear. I know if u stack shield value u can have some really big shield slams but u have no defense against spells with tank gear. As with pvp gear u have res and therefore have defense against spells and dotsand have more crit ... so whats better pvp or pve gear stacking shield block value. Also if u stack stam then blood craze is very useful. Has anyone tested both pvp and pve gear stacking sbv and knows whats better for pvp

Rikashae
06-06-2009, 12:23 PM
As a very dedicated Prot Warrior trying to gain the respect for our class/spec in PvP I thought I'd put out a few helpful tips for Arena. Since I Main Tank 5 nights a week for a raiding guild, I have not had the chance to test gemming Strength instead of stam, but I would say, any nerfs to Stam will also be a nerf to your self heal.

-Enraged regeneration works off a percentage of your health, I use Enraged Regeneration ONLY after hitting Last stand and ensuring that Commanding Shout is up. Doing this will heal you between 25k-30k assuming you have no healing debuffs. In addition I also pop Shield Wall 75% of the time that I use my Last Stand/Regen. I do this because while you are getting healed you are also taking damage, if the dmg you are taking is higher than the heals you are getting, then when the healing stops and Last Stand is over you will die.

-Intervene + Safe Guard. This ability is like giving a healer last stand. Not only will it help them mitigate dmg, it also puts you next to them to Stun, Disarm, Fear, Spell reflect whatever is attacking your healer or partner. I currently use:
/Target (Partners name)
/Cast Intervene

I will be trying this instead:
#showtooltip Intervene
/cast [target=mouseover, help][help] Intervene;
/cast [target=Partners Name] Intervene;

Another huge benefit that putting Intervene into your rotation is that it will get you out of Immobs, Slows just like Charge or Intercept. Assuming your partner is a healer, they are usually using some object for LoS so intervening to them could also save you if you're being focused too hard.

-Spell Reflect. With Imp Spell reflect you can ensure that any skilled casters will be fake casting and any unskilled casters will be Cycloned, Sheeped, Hexed or Feared throughout an Arena Match. Although a skilled caster will see Spell Reflect, stop casting then cast something small or not cast at all, this is still in fact dmg Mitigation. the time that they are not casting is time that your charges, stuns, shield slams are being recharged.

At the start of every match I will make a caster my focus. Using quarts mod, my focus casting bar is very large with Icons so I can see what they are casting at all times. I used to have the healers as focus then I realized I have them targetted 80-90% of a match so it was pointless. I do not save Spell Reflects for that special moment, it is a very fast recharge time now, so if spell reflect is not up then charge, intercept or Heroic Throw should be.

My last helpful hint would be to make a macro for shattering throw. There are way better macros than the one I use, but it works reguardless.
/cast Battle Stance
/cast Charge
/cast Shattering Throw
/cast Defensive Stance

I threw charge in the macro because if it's up and I'm at the range required it is an extra rage boost incase you don't have enough for Shattering Throw. If you are not in range or the charge is not ready, then it just skips it. With this simple macro I have to hit the macro a few times in order for it to complete the steps, but it works fine for me. The macro will be best if you are good at predicting when a mage will Ice Block or a Pally will Bubble.

Oh before I go, one last tip as far as gear goes. I use a specific macro for getting HUGE Shield Slams. Again this is a simple macro and there are probably way better out there but with this trinket: Lavanthor's Talisman - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i37872)

/use Lavanthor's Talismon
/cast Disarm
/cast Shield Block
/cast Shield Slam

This Trinket increases your BV by 440 for 20 seconds, a disarmed target takes 10% more damage, Shield Block is going to greatly increase the dmg of your Shield Slam. In season 5, I two shotted a Boomkin by Spell Reflecting Starfire for 9k then charging and doing that macro I hit him for 11k. Obviously it wasn't 2 shots because there would be a melee attck in there, but you get the picture. =) But a total of 20k dmg in less than 1 second was very nice.


I read throught the ToS and did not see it mentioned, so I will link a prot warrior Arena youtube video I made, if it's not allowed here I apologize in advance. YouTube - Prot Warrior PvP 0001

BJor
08-10-2009, 10:02 AM
How useful is the fury talent Blood craze for PvProt, I got 543 defense will I still be critted?

rljohn
08-10-2009, 11:04 AM
Yes, you will.

However by going 14 pts into Fury you are losing some useful PvP talents from Arms and I wouldn't recommend it.

krunar
08-11-2009, 01:47 AM
i tried that talent yeastrday
its very usufull...if you find someone to hit you
i team up with a DSC Priest so i spend most of the night chasing those that were chasing my priest.
After 20+ matches i found that in half of them i didnt even use my regeneration and there were cases that my healing was 0.
Of course there were a couple of matches were my healing reachied 17k (including 10K from regeneration) but as u go up in rating (currently i am at 840) you expect to find more and more experienced teams that will probably ignore you
For me wasnt a reall problem taking it since i have went all the way down to PW
But if you good in stance dance i suggest you go ARMS and spend 5-8 points in furry

rljohn
08-11-2009, 08:10 AM
The prot warrior play style in arenas is basically trying to set up for a kill everytime your cooldowns are up. DR's are down, disarm off cooldown...so you get your sunders up. If you are on the DPS target, take him down until his healer is requried to heal. Focus charge healer to interupt and try to shield bash the next heal. DPS him for ~4-5 seconds (the lockout from shield bash) and follow that up with concussion blow. As concussion blow is about to expire, shockwave. Your Healer should be DPS'ing him now hard too. If you have a prot paladin healer, have him use his shield silence at the end of this. If the DPS is on you, use revenge to get an off-DR stun on the healer. Follow it up with some gag order silences and you WILL force major cooldowns.

You repeat this every 45 seconds or so and you will win. This is why I recommend taking Impale in Arms, as your crits will hit 20% harder and gemming full crit. You need your damage to ramp up here and hit like a truck and force cooldowns.

For example my character sheet's crit is 23%. With 2pc t7.5 2 pc t8.5 and prot talents I have a 48% chance to crit with Devastate and a 38% chance to crit with shield slam. Any burst attempt with 0 crits will likely not force a cooldown.

Playing with a priest or prot paladin is best for arenas, as they have considerable burst and can end your rotation with a HoJ/Fear.

This is my spec of choice for both BG's and Arenas: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVMczbZ0xZVGzrtdzibIdsGo:dcN0Mz)

Brendan
09-08-2009, 09:59 AM
I'm a huge fan of PvProt and I've been playing it for quite a while now, both in 2v2 arenas and in the BGs. I have a question I'd like to throw out for the crowd, as I haven't seen it really addressed in relation to Protection spec PvP specifically:

With season 7 there is some PvP gear with armor penetration on it in place of crit (or hit). Does armor penetration help PvProt? Or am I better off sticking with the crit? I've read a ton of stuff about maxing out armor pen gear in conjunction with Grim Toll, but how about just getting 10-15% armor pen from a few pieces? Does the benefit outweigh not getting the equivalent crit rating? So much of the discussion of armor pen has to do with stacking it really high in conjunction with mace spec and battle stance. But I feel like it could still be useful for a Prot warrior in defensive stance to be ignoring a portion of enemy armor all the time, right?

Specifically I'm thinking about the effect on resilience. Resilience on your target reduces the value of your crit rating, but armor pen would still be working at full capability, increasing your damage consistently. I guess it's just a question of - is it enough in PvP to be worth it?

Magnuss
09-08-2009, 03:52 PM
Armor Penetration is a stat that increases its benefit with the more you have. The difference between 50% passive ArP and 100% ArP with a Grim Toll proc is what really defines it as being superior to strength for DPS warriors. It makes opponents that are typically challenging to try work down, much easier. When speaking of PvProt, this principal still very much holds true. Warriors see a MASSIVE gain in damage levels when they are able to increase the amount of Armor Penetration that they have, so prot warriors are no different there.

The question you are asking is in regards to crit specifically. The interesting thing with Crit for prot warriors is that we get a whole bunch of it already from talents on our core abilities. Depending on if you picked up these talents (which you likely did), means that stacking more crit rating will probably not be as necessary as it first seems. However, stacking Armor Penetration in the place of crit rating may not give you the kind of boost that you would first hope for. Having low level amounts of ArP (10-20% in defensive stance) will increase the damage of all your attacks, but it is doubtful you would distinctly notice a huge difference. The only way you would truely see significant gains is if you decided to use a Grim Toll with some ArP items or, if you decided to push a large majority of your gear and slots towards ArP.

This is very doable for you if you choose to do so and the more pieces of gear you focus towards ArP the greater a return you will get (and notice) on your damage, much more so than crit. Will it completely overwrite crit as a better stat if you do not stack it heavily? Probably not. Small percentages of crit will lead you to notice more crits which is obviously more beneficial in demonstrating snap pressure against opponents.

In the end it is up to you, but I would only bother with ArP if you had a Grim Toll and felt like allocating a few pieces of gear to push the ArP up a notch.

Tanksforus
09-09-2009, 11:40 PM
And 2vs2 or 3vs3 that loses againt a team with a prot warrior in it has to l2p

Magnuss
09-10-2009, 06:55 AM
And 2vs2 or 3vs3 that loses againt a team with a prot warrior in it has to l2p

Blatantly not true as attributed to the several Gladiator prot warriors throughout the Battlegroups in season 6. There are ways to play against and beat prot warriors but when backed by a good team with high skill, it is much more than simply L2play.

XtreO
09-10-2009, 12:19 PM
I've a dilemma. Up until recently, I've gemmed my yellow slots with hit to stay capped. Now that I'm getting access to both relentless ring and neck, should I replace some old gear with that and gem something else in yellows?

I currently got the Furious ring (standard warr pvp stats) and warlord's depravity and Medallion of the Disgraced. I got around 160 hit in PvProt gear if I remember correctly.

If I replaced one of the items with a PvP hit offset relentless item, I'd stay hit capped without using some yellow gems for hit. My block value is at the moment a bit high, over 2.4k, nearly 2.5k buffed in arena.

I am leaning towards keeping a BV neck and replacing crit ring for hit. But that raises another question, wtf should I put in the yellow slots?

Tanksforus
09-10-2009, 11:38 PM
Dont know what arena rankings site are u checking, But on arenajunkies.com i couldnt find one prot warrior in top 100.

Vais
09-11-2009, 09:20 AM
check this gladiator
char: draek
realm: shattered hand

currently at 2414 (place 5)

found at arena junkies

Magnuss
09-11-2009, 02:12 PM
Gladiator bubbles are larger than top 100 in the world btw.

Demonslayor
09-16-2009, 07:09 AM
After a long break I have returned to WoW and will most likely be dinging 80 tonight with my warrior. I leveled from 70 as prot and love it and I am really interested in doing pvp as a prot warrior. My biggest question right now is what is going to be better for pvping, “Defense or Resilience” or a mix of both. And what should I aim for on each one?

Rudolf
09-16-2009, 07:14 AM
After a long break I have returned to WoW and will most likely be dinging 80 tonight with my warrior. I leveled from 70 as prot and love it and I am really interested in doing pvp as a prot warrior. My biggest question right now is what is going to be better for pvping, “Defense or Resilience” or a mix of both. And what should I aim for on each one?

If you're using the Block PvP style, defense will inherently be found on your gear but it's not something you should aim for. It reduces the chance to be crit by a much smaller amount than resilience and only affects melee. The parry/dodge/block component also doesn't compare to the overall dmg reduction of resilience in PvP.

I would focus on increasing your offensive abilities. Whatever defense on your prot gear or resilience on PvP gear is just a bonus.

XtreO
09-17-2009, 02:49 AM
Imo go for 2.2k - 2.4k block value and 5% hit. From there fill the rest of your slots with relentless gear. I also think the t7 and t8 2pc are MUSTS. If you cba doing much PvE however, go for those setbonuses and from there PvP gear gemmed with strenght while maintaining hit cap.

Mindslayer
09-17-2009, 08:37 PM
Found myself doing prot pvp in 2vs2 and having a lot of fun.

Regarding gear, arp has given me a big dps increase.However, I've decided to break the T8 set bonus since I replaced my T8 leggings with the T9 ones and gemmed them for arp.Have yet to try them, but liking it so far in duels.

If you want to check my gear, I think I logged off in pvp gear.

Search for Steelsoul in Vashj EU. Didn't get my hands in a grim toll yet, but thinking of getting Thorim's Runestone instead.

Lautoa
10-06-2009, 02:02 AM
i hate to drag on the ArP vs. Str debate, but it seems to me that everyone is only doing the math on the offensive stats. i'm wondering how SBV will affect your success in PvP considering your slightly higher survivability from blocks (although i understand having a gnome rogue run in circles under your tauren leads to fewer blocks), and whether or not the small damage done by Damage Shield is every added into the DPS calculation. i understand how it's superior for arms warriors, but they don't carry shields so the SBV part of Str is completely useless for them.

i've been gemming ArP and Str about half and half, but i'm still having a hard time jumping on the ArP bandwagon since Str has more purposes than pure DPS.

plus i don't have a grim toll so maybe when i get one i'll see the light or whatever. and i guess i also need to consider how much easier it is to get gear that already has a gang of strength on it anyway. still, i've found myself swapping out PvP gear i had just bought to go back to a couple PvE pieces with SBV on them.

Henron
10-06-2009, 10:05 AM
I'm of the opinion that roughly 1900 BV, 25-30% crit and 30%+ ArP is a perfect balance for Prot. I changed my set yesterday and noticed much more consistent damage from Devastate and Shield Slam by not focusing as much on stacking ArP.

Draw from that what you will.

/e: Here's a link (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostwolf&n=Fluffumz) to my Armory.

Unpossible
10-07-2009, 04:54 AM
I'm of the opinion that roughly 1900 BV, 25-30% crit and 30%+ ArP is a perfect balance for Prot. I changed my set yesterday and noticed much more consistent damage from Devastate and Shield Slam by not focusing as much on stacking ArP.

Draw from that what you will.

/e: Here's a link (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostwolf&n=Fluffumz) to my Armory.

Thanks for this post, I have been looking for something like this. I am currently struggling around 1700 rating (havent played that many games though, 176 matches - 64% win).

I have been thinking about what I can do differently about gear/spec to improve. Currently I have ~2.740 Block value (with Kings), ~23% crit, 0 Armor Penetration. When reading your post, and checking you out on Armory, I'm at least convinced to try to swap a few items :)

I noticed that you got pretty low Expertise, but about the same Hit that i got. Is this fairly low Expertise actually enough? Have I overdone my gemming etc to get "too much" expertise?

Link to my armory profile (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Al%27Akir&cn=Unpossible&gn=Agony+Unleashed)

Magnuss
10-07-2009, 07:42 AM
Expertise in pvp is unreliable. Many classes have high chance to dodge (almost all have a higher chance than bosses) and parry so you will not generally reach a "cap" for expertise that will push dodges or parries off the table like you would in PvE. It is because of this that expertise is a stat you take when it is a bonus on gear, but you never attempt to stack. If you are wearing gear that is expertise based, try to find something that has a more favorable stat (STR, ArP, crit, etc.).

Unpossible
10-07-2009, 07:53 AM
Expertise in pvp is unreliable. Many classes have high chance to dodge (almost all have a higher chance than bosses) and parry so you will not generally reach a "cap" for expertise that will push dodges or parries off the table like you would in PvE. It is because of this that expertise is a stat you take when it is a bonus on gear, but you never attempt to stack. If you are wearing gear that is expertise based, try to find something that has a more favorable stat (STR, ArP, crit, etc.).

Thanks for clearing that up for me :)

I will replace my expertise gear/gems/enchants with other more beneficial stats then!

temor
11-27-2009, 09:18 AM
hey guys, is there a block value cap? I remember reading something about blizzard capping SBV

Rikashae
12-02-2009, 10:44 PM
Block Value cap is 30 times the players level. at level 80(x30)=2400
the cap suffers diminishing returns as well, and from my understanding if you trinket into it or something its 34.5x player lever meaning at 80(x34.5)=2760 (Just remember this is ONLY for dmg of shield slam and does not cap for mitigation.)


One thing I see wrong with so many Prot PvP specs is that because of the talents people are choosing I'm guessing you stay in defensive stance. I never realized all the DMG I was losing until recently and we jumped from 1600 to 1900 just by staying in Battle Stance instead. Battle stance allows you to constantly hamstring, overpower and not have to Dance for Shattering throw. And on top of that Defensive stance nerfs your DMG done.The only 2 abilities you lose are Shield Block and Disarm. Both of which should only be when you are trying to really kill a target.

For example, I have a macro that pops Lav Talis, swaps to defensive, disarms target, and hits shield block. I ONLY do this when I have 5 sunders, the target is slowed and Grim Toll procs.

I'm pretty sure I do more arena matches than most prot warriors and after ALOT of testing I found that the best set-up gear wise is wearing anything you have with Block Value and anything that doesn't use Arm Pen. I saw people posting that they spec for crit which is probably nice around 800-1200 bracket, but the more resil people have the more of a wasted stat it becomes. ArmPen stacked with my Sunders + a Grim Toll proc I average 5k crits with devestate and I have hit 2k priests for 8-10k with shield slam.

Last Note: Realistically Prot PvP is very sketchy, and dependant on the skill and gear of the people you are playing against and your partner. If you are running with a healer, they really need to know when to help DPS and when to stay alive. Typically they won't ever be able to stand around and free heal you because you SHOULDN'T ever be the target. If you look at the Gladiator Prot Warriors, they are mostly running with Holy Pallies and if you look at their match history the pally typically does 40-60k dmg in a 5 minute match.

rljohn
12-07-2009, 06:52 AM
2v2 is a dead bracket which prot is stupidly OP in. For example, I carried the server's worst paladin healer to 2200, losing games along the way to "dragged bubble off my bar" and "I dont know how i ended up in the middle of the arena i just did".

For 3v3 I see three distinct gear setups:
1. 2pc T10 (SBV) + 2pc T9 DPS (ArP) with offset shield block gemmed ARP.
Example: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&n=Xanadu)

2. 2pc T9 DPS (ArP) w/ PvP gear gemmed ARP
Example: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shattered+Hand&n=Draek)

3. A mixture of the two. Personally I wear 2pc T8 Tank (10% devastate crit) + 2pc T9 DPS (ArP). I find having that ~40-45% chance crit on devastates makes my burst switchinig really effective for 2v2. In 3v3 I wear T10/T19 because I am not making the kills myself now and really just need to add a small touch of oomph on switches + conc blow + interupt while my man cleave partner gets the kill.

Pizzashark
12-09-2009, 11:03 AM
If you want to do well, you wear Arms gear. There might be a case for fitting some block value gear in with the T10 2-pc being so nice, but you have to remember that you aren't getting Resilience from those two pieces of T10, let alone any other PvE pieces you swap in... and you need Resilience against intelligent opponents.

If you don't have at least about 500 Resilience... you're going to get torn apart by teams that know what they're doing. Lack of Second Wind and Blood Craze make you a very good target for target swapping, particularly after you've burned Shield Wall.