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Darksend
10-13-2008, 12:17 PM
Updated for 3.3 (formatting update: Table of Contents now contains links to the appropriate sections)

For the article version of this write-up click here (http://www.tankspot.com/article.php?id=113807).

Table of Contents:

I. Introduction and Videos
II. Feral Talents
III. Resto Talents
IV. Balance Talents
V. 1-70 Changes
VI. Talent Builds
VII. Glyphs
1. Minor
2. Major
3. Recommendations VIII. Threat
IX. Gear
1. Stat Priority
2. Gems
3. Enchants
4. 3.3 Best-in-Slot List



I. Introduction and Videos

The Purpose of this guide is to provide an in depth analysis of the different talents and builds of Bear tanks. Recently I have become a full time bear and have hardly dpsed at all since ToC was released, as such check out Geros's WOLTK Cat DPS guide (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?57393-WOTLK-Cat-DPS-Guide) in the DPS forum for much more up-to-date DPS info. I will try to keep the bear info as up-to-date as possible but things change as patches are released. However, if you see any errors I may have made please point them out. If you feel I have omitted anything of importance, bring it up in the thread for discussion.

Also, the patch to wrath guide (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?40464-3-0-feral-druid-pre-wrath-and-leveling-guide) is still around. Check it out if you are are still in the process of leveling as it provides some useful insight for those going from 70-80.

Welcome to parts 1 and 2 of the Feral Druid Video Guides, which will deal with bear tanking.

Donors looking to download this can find it under Druid Reference: Bear Rotation Guide.
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II. Feral Talents


Tier 1


Ferocity: Reduces the cost of your Maul, Swipe, Claw, Rake and Mangle abilities by 1/2/3/4/5 Rage or Energy.

Comment:


Feral Aggression: Increases the attack power reduction of your Demoralizing Roar by 8/16/24/32/40% and the damage caused by your Ferocious Bite by 3/6/9/12/15%.

Comment: For hard mode and heroic mode raiding it is required that bosses have an improved attack power reduction on them at all times. If your raid does not have a warrior with improved demo shout, you need to max this talent as you will be in charge of this debuff. If you only plan on doing normal mode raids and 5 man heroics, normal demo roar (or even no demo roar at all in the case of 5 mans) is acceptable.



Tier 2


Feral Instinct: Increases the damage done by your Swipe ability by 10/20/30% and reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while Prowling.

Comment:
Bear form now has the same threat modifier as Defensive stance (207.35), includes feral instinct's old threat base now.
Now affects Swipe (Cat).

Savage Fury: Increases the damage caused by your Claw, Rake, Mangle (Cat), Mangle (Bear), and Maul abilities by 10/20%.

Comment:
Once again affects bear abilities, tier 2 moved from tier 5.

Thick Hide: Increases your Armor contribution from cloth and leather items by 4/7/10%.

Comment:
No longer affects rings, trinkets, neck, or weapons. Also no longer affects bonus armor on capes, for example the base armor for every ilvl 213 cape is 154, shadowed sun has 490, that 154 receives the 10% while the extra 336 does not.


Tier 3


Feral Swiftness: Increases your movement speed by 15/30% in Cat Form and increases your chance to dodge while in Cat Form, Bear Form and Dire Bear Form by 2/4%.

Comment:
Active everywhere not just outdoors.

Survival Instincts: When activated, this ability temporarily grants you 30% of your maximum health for 20 sec while in Bear Form, Cat Form, or Dire Bear Form. After the effect expires, the health is lost. 3 minute cooldown.

Comment:
3.0.8 patch notes: Survival Instincts: The extra health from this ability now persists in all forms, but the ability can only be activated in Cat Form, Bear Form, or Dire Bear Form. This prevents the health gain from occurring multiple times if constantly shapeshifting.
This also fixes the problem i mentioned earlier of dieing instantly upon shifting out of form because you would be taken to 1hp if you were below the amount of health received from the buff.
Updated for 3.1, the cooldown reduced to 3 minutes to bring it in line with the change to Last Stand.

Sharpened Claws: Increases your critical strike chance while in Bear, Dire Bear or Cat Form by 2/4/6%.

Comment:



Tier 4


Shredding Attacks: Reduces the energy cost of your Shred ability by 9 /18 and the rage cost of your Lacerate ability by 1/2.

Comment:
More testing needs to be done on lacerate vs swipe single target AP->threat Scaling. In BC swipe quickly outpaced lacerate even on single targets making this talent lackluster for bear. Also, lacerate rank 3 was buffed quite a bit, but it remains to be seen how much threat is from the bleed and how much is on the initial application. It may well be that we just keep a 5 stack and swipe/mangle.

Predatory Strikes :Increases your melee attack power in Cat, Bear, and Dire Bear Forms by 50/100/150% of your level and 7/14/20% of any attack power on your equipped weapon. In addition, your finishing moves have a 7/13/20% chance per combo point to make your next nature spell with a base casting time less than 10 sec. become an instant cast spell.

Comment:
Update for 3.1 to reflect the removal of Moonkin form.
Update for 3.2.2 to include instant cast nature spells.

Primal Fury (Requires 3 points in Sharpened Claws): Gives you a 50/100% chance to gain an additional 5 Rage anytime you get a critical strike while in Bear and Dire Bear Form and your critical strikes from Cat Form abilities that add combo points have a 50/100% chance to add an additional combo point.

Comment:


Primal Precision (Requires 3 points in Sharpened Claws): Increases your expertise by 5/10, and you are refunded 40/80% of the energy cost of a finishing move if it fails to land.

Comment:
This grants 10 expertise not expertise rating.


Tier 5


Brutal Impact: Increases the stun duration of your Bash and Pounce abilities by .5/1 sec and decreases the cooldown of Bash by 15/30 sec.

Comment:
Bash now interrupts casting on stun immune mobs (ie bosses).

Feral Charge: Teaches Feral Charge (Bear) and Feral Charge (Cat).
Feral Charge (Bear) - Causes you to charge an enemy, immobilizing and interrupting any spell being cast for 4 sec. This ability can be used in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form. 15 second cooldown.
Feral Charge (Cat) - Causes you to leap behind an enemy, dazing them for 3 sec. 30 second cooldown.

Comment:
Feral charge (cat) activates a 15 second cooldown on feral charger (bear).

Nurturing Instinct: Increases your healing spells by up to 35/70% of your Agility, and increases healing done to you by 10/20% while in Cat form.

Comment:



Tier 6


Natural Reaction: Increases your dodge while in Bear Form or Dire Bear Form by 2/4/6%, and you regenerate 1/2/3 rage every time you dodge while in Bear Form or Dire Bear Form.

Comment:


Heart of the Wild (Requires 3 points in Predatory Strikes): Increases your Intellect by 4/8/12/16/20%. In addition, while in Bear or Dire Bear Form your Stamina is increased by 2/4/6/8/10% and while in Cat Form your attack power is increased by 2/4/6/8/10%.

Comment:
Updated for 3.1 to reflect the lowered stam multiplier.

Survival of the Fittest: Increases all attributes by 2/4/6%, reduces the chance you'll be critically hit by melee attacks by 2/4/6%, and increases your armor contribution from cloth and leather items in bear form and dire bear form by 11/22/33%.

Comment:
Correct, you do not need defense to be immune to crit from bosses with this talent maxed. Updated for 3.1 to reflect the armor reduction.


Tier 7


Leader of the Pack: While in Cat, Bear or Dire Bear Form, the Leader of the Pack increases ranged and melee critical chance of all party members within 45 yards by 5%.

Comment:


Improved Leader of the Pack (Requires 1 point in Leader of the Pack): Your Leader of the Pack ability also causes affected targets to heal themselves for 2/4% of their total health when they critically hit with a melee or ranged attack. The healing effect cannot occur more than once every 6 sec. In addition, you gain 4/8% of your maximum mana when you benefit from this heal.

Comment:


Primal Tenacity: Reduces the duration of Fear effects by 10/20/30%, reduces all damage taken while Stunned in cat form by 10/20/30%.

Comment:
Update for 3.1 to reflect the damage reduction while stunned only applies in cat form.
Update for 3.2 to reflect the shift of mana reduction to King of the Jungle.


Tier 8


Protector of the Pack (Requires 1 point in Leader of the Pack): Increases your attack power by 2/4/6%, and reduces the damage you take while in Bear or Dire Bear Form by 4/8/12%.

Comment:
The tooltip is confusing, but the ap only effect bear form.
Group requirement removed.

Predatory Instincts: While in Cat Form, increases your damage from melee critical strikes by 3/7/10% and reduces the damage taken from area of effect attacks by 10/20/30%.

Comment:
No portion of this talent affects bear form in any way anymore, this talent is 100% cat.

Infected Wounds: Your Shred, Maul, and Mangle attacks cause an Infected Wound in the target. The Infected Wound reduces the movement speed of the target by 16/34/50% and the attack speed by 6/14/20%. Lasts 12 sec.

Comment:
Druid thunderclap.
Updated for 3.2.2, the debuff no longer needs to stack and instantly has full effect.


Tier 9



King of the Jungle: While using your Enrage ability in Bear Form or Dire Bear Form, your damage is increased by 5/10/15%, and your Tiger's Fury ability also instantly restores 20/40/60 energy. In addition the mana cost of bear form, cat form, and dire bear form is reduced by 20/40/60%.

Comment:
Per point damage (for bear) increase using enrage:
Every 60 seconds .833%
every 61 seconds .819%
every 62 seconds .806%
every 63 seconds .793%

Updated for 3.2 to reflect the mana reduction to shifting.

Mangle (Requires 1 point in Leader of the Pack): Mangle the target, inflicting damage and causing the target to take additional damage from bleed effects for 12 sec. This ability can be used in Cat Form or Dire Bear Form.

Comment:


Improved Mangle (Requires 1 point in Mangle): Reduces the cooldown of your Mangle (Bear) ability by .5/1/1.5 sec., and reduces the energy cost of your Mangle (Cat) ability by 2/4/6.

Comment:
Because of the restriction of GCD, getting 1 or 2 points in this talent means you either need to not use any abilities for .5/1 second while off global, or when you get to mangle it will be off cooldown and you still still be on global. For tanking, its all 3 or none. For cat, if you plan on raiding seriously in 25 mans guilds will most likely have a trauma warrior and you will never need to mangle. For sustained dps, you mangle once every rotation so even without a trauma warrior it is lackluster for cat.


Tier 10:


Rend and Tear: Increases damage done by your Maul and Shred attacks on bleeding targets by 4/8/12/16/20%, and increases the critical strike chance of your Ferocious Bite ability on bleeding targets by 5/10/15/20/25%.

Comment:
It does not have to be pounce, lacerate, rip, or rake, any bleed will proc this talent, from any class. Updated for 3.1 to reflect the crit reduction on Ferocious Bite.

Primal Gore (Requires 5 points in Rend and Tear): Grants the periodic damage from your Lacerate and Rip abilities the chance to critically hit.

Comment:
While tanking this greatly increases the value of a 5 stack of lacerate as the crits proc SD.

Tier 11:


Berserk: When activated, this ability causes your Mangle (Bear) ability to hit up to 3 targets and have no cooldown, and reduces the energy cost of all your Cat Form abilities by 50%. Lasts 15 sec. You cannot use Tiger's Fury while Berserk is active. Clears the effect of Fear and makes you immune to Fear for the duration. 3 minute cooldown.

Comment:


III. Resto Talents


Tier 1


Furor: Gives you 20/40/60/80/100% chance to gain 10 Rage when you shapeshift into Bear and Dire Bear Form, and you keep up to 20/40/60/80/100 of your Energy when you shapeshift into Cat Form, and increases your total Intellect while in Moonkin form by 2/4/6/8/10%.

Comment:


Improved Mark of the Wild: Increases the effects of your Mark of the Wild and Gift of the Wild spells by 20/40%, and increases all of your total attributes by 1/2%.

Comment:
Updated for 3.1 to reflect the addition of increased stats. Now a mandatory talent.


Tier 2


Naturalist: Reduces the cast time of your Healing Touch spell by 0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5 sec and increases the damage you deal with physical attacks in all forms by 2/4/6/8/10%.

Comment:
On your character screen, for melee damage when you mouse over your damage range you will see x102/x104/x106/x108/x110.

Natural Shapeshifter: Reduces the mana cost of all shapeshifting by 10/20/30%.

Comment:



Tier 3


Intensity: Allows 17/33/50% of your Mana regeneration to continue while casting and causes your Enrage ability to instantly generate 4/7/10 rage.

Comment:


Omen of Clarity: Each of the Druid's damage, healing spells and auto attacks has a chance of causing the caster to enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the Mana, Rage or Energy cost of your next damage, healing spell or offensive ability by 100%.

Comment:
No longer procs off specials (maul being on neck swing still procs it).

Master Shapeshifter (Requires 3 points in Natural Shapeshifter): Grants an effect which lasts while the druid is in the respective shapeshifting form:
Bear: Increases Physical Damage by 2/4%.
Cat: Increases Critical Strike Chance by 2/4%.

Comment:
If taken out of 5 points, as NSS is more or less useless in pve, it balances out to .8% damage increase per point.

IV. Balance Talents

Comment:
None, they changed the wording of genesis a while back and since that patch IT DOES NOT AFFECT pounce/rip/rake/lacerate.

The following 2 sections will cover changes to all 3 specs as some changes will overlap into feral. For now they are in no coherent order but I will edit them once things settle down.

V. 1-70 Changes

Swipe (updated for 3.1)- The Bear Form and Dire Bear Form version of this ability no longer has a targeting requirement and hits targets behind the druid and to the sides.
Faerie Fire (Feral) (updated for 3.1)- is now a trained base ability (level 18 same as normal faerie fire). When used in bear, it will both do damage and generate extra threat. In bear form it will now do damage equal to 15% of your AP up for 5%. Now lasts 5 minutes in pve up from 40 (still has a pvp duration of 40) - this change also applies to normal Faerie Fire. To keep it in line with the other changes to ArP mechanics it now reduces armor by 5% instead of a flat amount.
Barkskin - now usable in forms.
Revive - Druids new out of combat rez.
Growl - 30 yards to match the warrior and death knight equivalents.
Challenging roar - down to 3 minutes.
Maim (updated for 3.1)- This ability is now considered a stun, and shares a diminish category with all other stuns. It no longer has a chance to break from the target taking damage. Duration lowered to 1 second per combo point.
Frenzied regen - will now heal for 30% of your hp if all 100 rage is consumed.
Maul - now affected by mangle/trauma.
Weapon procs (such as mongoose) will now proc in forms.
Healthstones, Potions, and the like can now be used in forms. You can also mine, herb, and use quest items in form as well.
Abolish Poison (updated for 3.1): Now ticks every 3 seconds, up from every 2. Now lasts 12 seconds, up from 8.
Innervate (updated for 3.2): This spell no longer costs mana. This ability has been redesigned to grant 225% of the casting Druid's base mana pool to the target over 10 seconds. Cooldown reduced to 3 minutes.
Lifebloom (updated for 3.1): Mana cost of all ranks doubled. When Lifebloom blooms or is dispelled, it now refunds half the base mana cost of the spell per application of Lifebloom, and the heal effect is multiplied by the number of applications.
Pounce (updated for 3.1): No longer affected by diminishing returns with other stuns, however, it now shares a diminishing return with Cheap Shot (Rogue).
New ability: Savage Defense (added in 3.1): Trainable at level 40 with Dire Bear Form as a prerequisite.
When the druid deals a melee critical strike, it gains a physical damage shield equal to 25% of its attack power. The next hit completely consumes the shield, regardless of how much damage was done. Only active in Bear Form.
Enrage (updated for 3.2): Now generates 20 initial rage and 10 rage over 10 seconds, for 30 rage. Armor penalty unchanged.
Rebirth (updated for 3.3): Cooldown reduced from 20 minutes to 10 minutes, still not usable in arena.

VI. Talent Builds
Threat Spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRc0zAkbAczb): Use if you do not need to apply improved demo roar or infected wounds.

Improved Demo spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZVGGscrzceRc0zAkbAczb): Changes ferocity for Feral Aggression if your raid does not have a warrior with improved demo shout of a paladin with vindication.

Infected Wounds spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRcczVkbAczb): Changes Improved Mangle for Infected wounds if your raid needs you to apply the attack speed debuff.

Infected Wounds and Improved Demo spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZVGGscrzceRcczVkbAczb): This spec changes ferocity for Feral Aggression and Improved mangle for Infected wounds. This is the spec you will probably be if you exclusively run 10 mans. In 25 mans it depends on what class your offtank is but this will rarely be useful except on single tank fights.

Infected Wounds, Improved Demo, and Improved Mangle (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZVRGscrzceRcczAkbAc0b): You trade Omen of Clarity and 2 points in Feral Instinct to pick up improved mangle along with the above spec.

Hybrid spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxMGsfr0ceochuAkbA0z): There are 3 unspent points to place where you feel best, this is the spec you want to use if you tank/cat main spec and have a healing offspec (as opposed to a full cat or moonkin offspec).

Building up a spec from scratch (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxMGscrzZbA): Start off with 10 in resto and then start working up the feral tree. The first tier depends on your raids needs but most likely a fury warrior will have improved demo shout in their spec allowing you to get ferocity.

Building up a spec part two (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxRGscrzceoc0zZbA): Putting the filler point in feral instinct brings you to the choices between infected wounds and improved mangle, again depending on what your raid needs.

Building up a spec conclusion (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxRGscrzcekcczVkbA): Once you decide between improved mangle and infected wounds you will need 1 filler point, I placed it in imp leader of the pack. Getting the 7 points in the last two tiers leaves you 9 points to do with as you please and 2 filler points to move around as you please at the two stop points above.

VII. Glyphs


1. Minor

Glyph of Aquatic Form - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43316) -> could be useful for leveling not so much at 80
Glyph of Challenging Roar - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43334) -> must have
Glyph of Dash - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43674)
Glyph of Thorns - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43332) -> You should have a tree or boomkin buffing you with thorns before pulls negating this
Glyph of Unburdened Rebirth - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43331)


2. Major

Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40896) -> must have. with the buffs to frenzied regen and this glyph it will finally become something useful again
Glyph of Maul - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40897) (updated for 3.1) -> at 1st I hated this glyph, now I am in love with it. Unfortunately there are a lot of taunt sensitive encounters in ulduar. One niche this may have is on heroic twins if your raid is hitting the enrage timer and are using a strat in which you tank them on top of each other, this will add significant dps.
Glyph of Growl - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40899) (updated for 3.1) -> As mentioned above, this is pretty much a must now for ulduar. In trial you so not want taunts resisting on Gormok.
Glyph of Mangle - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40900) -> really more for cat DPS than tanking, you would need 3-4 misses in a row depending on if you speced into improved mangle before the debuff fell anyway.
Glyph of Barkskin - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45623) (new in 3.1)-> PvP glyph since you are already immune to crits against bosses. I used this for hard mode thorim while undergeared though.
Glyph of Berserk - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45601) (new in 3.1) -> PvP glyph, not as effective as shred, rip and SR for cat pve. Possible burst threat potential for bear but there are actually good bear glyphs now.
Glyph of Survival Instincts - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46372) (new in 3.1) -> My new favorite bear glyph. This + 4pc t8 gives you 28 seconds of 45% increased health.


3. Recommendations:

Major:
Growl, SI, Frenzied Regen.
Minor:
Challenging roar, Unburdened Rebirth, Dash


VIII. Threat

For those interested, a write-up of all the threat modifiers can be found here (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?47813-WOTLK-Bear-Threat-Values). It is updated as of the 3.3 PTR.

There are two different rotations a bear might use. The first you use if you are not speced into improved mangle and is 4 globals long, this is because mangle and FF will both have a 6 second cooldown and thus never overlap. If you are speced into improved mangle then mangle and FF will both come off cooldown at the same time. Additionally every rotation is only 3 globals instead of 4.

Regardless, you want to keep maul queued as much as possible depending on how much rage you have, as it usually makes up between 50 and 70% of a bear's threat.

The Improved Mangle rotation is always Mangle, 2, 3. Where 2 and 3 can be either a demo roar, faerie fire, swipe, or lacerate. Always use mangle every time it comes up, unless demo roar has fallen off. The rules for deciding which ability to use on steps 2 and 3 are as follows:

first > if demo roar or an equivalent is not active on the boss, apply the debuff.
second > if demo roar is on the boss and FF is off cooldown, use it.
third > if demo is up and FF is on cooldown, swipe.

Your first 3 rotations should always be mangle, FF, lacerate, mangle lacerate, lacerate, mangle lacerate lacerate followed by a mangle then a berserk. While berserk make sure to replace 1 mangle with a lacerate to keep your 5stack going.

After that any time you are on step 2 and lacerate has less than 3 seconds, or on step 3 and lacerate has less than 5 seconds remaining on the debuff, refreshing your 5stack has priority over swipe and FF.

The normal rotation simply adds FF into the normal mix and becomes mangle, FF, 3, 4. Where 3 and 4 can now only be demo roar, swipe, or lacerate. Again always mangle and FF when the come up unless demo has fallen and the rules for steps 3 and 4 now become:

first > if demo roar has fallen, apply the debuff.
second > if demo roar is on the target, swipe.

Your first 2 rotations are mangle FF lacerate lacerate, mangle lacerate lacerate lacerate, mangle berserk. Again towards the end of berserk you will need to turn 1 mangle into a lacerate to keep the stack rolling.

After that, the duration remaining on your five stack in order to determine if lacerate will replace a swipe is less than 3 seconds at step 3 and less than 5 seconds at step 4.

IX. Gear
1. Stat Priority: What are you looking for in your gear?



Stamina
Agility
Armor for capes and jewelery
Dodge rating
Defense rating
Expertise and hit until cap
Haste
Crit
Armor pen

Stamina is your primary stat. For every 1 point of stamina you actually gain 1.63 stam with kings in bear.

Agility will be your primary source of avoidance. Because we tank in rogue gear we will naturally have enough avoidance without really gemming for it. It also gives a small amount of extra armor as well as crit.

Look for extra armor on necks, capes, and rings. The extra armor has to come from some where as far as item budget, most of the time it comes at the expense of parry rating which we cannot use anyway or threat stats such as hit and expertise. This makes them perfect for druids and soaking massive amounts of physical damage.

Defense and dodge will only appear on necks, capes, rings, and trinkets. For comparison, 5 dodge rating is .13% while 5 defense rating is only .04% dodge and .04% chance to be missed.

Expertise up till 56 skill is your best threat stat, followed by hit till 8%.

After that, because maul makes up so much of our threat, haste becomes the next best stat.

Crit affects lacerate and FF as well as procing savage defense putting it slightly ahead of armor pen.

For Trinkets, they are the most versatile gear slot you have. This more than anything else should be changed based on the encounter. Need more avoidance, use greatness deck, need more threat, use an expertise trinket or grim toll, fighting heroic anub, use the glyph.

2. Gems

For your meta, you want the Austere Earthsiege Diamond (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41380). It takes 2 blue and a red to activate.

Never get any socket bonus that requires a yellow gem.

If an item has a single red socket and an agi or stam bonus I will usually fill it with a Shifting Dreadstone (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40130).

Likewise if an item has a blue socket and a red socket and an agi or stam socket bonus, I will also fill the red with a Shifting Dreadstone (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40130) while using a Solid Majestic Zircon (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40119) in the blue to pick that bonus up as well.

Other than that you want a Solid Majestic Zircon (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40119) in every slot, with 3 51 stam gems if you are a JCer.


3. Enchants

Helm: Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44150) from revered argent crusade (the stamina-shadow resist helm enchant is from the same vendor make sure to get the right one). Helms are a great place to enchant for resists when fights require, such as heroic Anub, Item Enhancements (Permanent) - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?items=0.6&filter=sl=1;minrl=80;cr=25:26:28:27:29;crs=1:1:1:1 :1;crv=0:0:0:0:0;ma=1).

Shoulder: Greater Inscription of the Gladiator (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44957) from honor is recommended but you can also get Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44136) from exalted Sons of Hodir. If you do not have the honor, an easy way to get it is to win a single Wintergrasp with all the weekly's, but you could also get a Heavy Borean Armor Kit (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38376) as a placeholder.

Cape: 22 agi (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=60663) or 225 armor (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47672). This is another great place to get resists for fights like heroic Anub, Enchanting - Recipes - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spells=11.333&filter=sl=16;minrs=400;maxrs=400).

Chest: 10 to all stats (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=60692)or a Heavy Borean Armor Kit (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38376), this provides more hp than 275 hp while in bear form if you have kings.

Bracers: 102 stam (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=57690) for a leatherworker or 40 stam (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=62256) if you are not

Weapon: Mongoose (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27984)

Rings: if you are an enchanter you can put stamina (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=59636)on them.

Boots: 22 stam (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=44528) or Tuskarr's (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47901) if you feel you need the run speed. You can also opt for 16 ag (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=44589)i.

Legs: Frosthide leg armor (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38373), if you are a leatherworker you can go this (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=60583)instead for less mats.

Gloves: You have a lot of options here. Personally I recommend a Heavy Borean Armor Kit (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38376) but you could go with 20 agi (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=44529). If you felt you really needed it you can enchant 20 hit rating (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=44488) or 15 expertise rating (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=44484).


4. 3.3 Best-in-Slot List


I have finished a very basic best-in-slot list for ICC. Blizzard is using a different philosophy than in ToC in regards to sockets and as such if you do not plan on doing hard modes just fill in the 264 items of the same name and the list still holds true. The write-up can be found here (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?59727-3-3-277-Feral-Tank-Best-In-Slot-list).

Bloodwraith
10-13-2008, 12:52 PM
I don't mind <3

Ciderhelm
11-11-2008, 12:41 PM
Moved to the public forum!

Doomhamer
11-11-2008, 02:44 PM
Nice work ty

Genova
11-12-2008, 06:39 PM
Awesome job, thankyou!

Scrubcat
11-18-2008, 08:01 AM
After reading your post I feel that you make many good points. I have learned a couple things that I did not know before, even though I had thought that I knew it all :cool:

However, I would like to know why you are so avid on picking up PP, as the only benefit it has for tanking is a mere 10 expertise. With the buff of SoTF, it is easier to obtain hit/expertise from gear than before when def/resil was a problem to become defense capped. I personally feel that the two points spent in PP and the one point spent in brutal impact would be better served in IW. This is due to the fact that bash is now far more inferior than before. Reasons being: 1) The glyph that reduces your AOE taunt 2) The range buff on growl 3) The 8 second CD of growl 4) Maul hitting an additional target from glyph.

I am honestly just looking for feedback/critisicm of this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscbzceRcczAo0Eczb)

Let me know what you think, any input & suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Darksend
11-18-2008, 09:56 AM
After reading your post I feel that you make many good points. I have learned a couple things that I did not know before, even though I had thought that I knew it all :cool:

However, I would like to know why you are so avid on picking up PP, as the only benefit it has for tanking is a mere 10 expertise. With the buff of SoTF, it is easier to obtain hit/expertise from gear than before when def/resil was a problem to become defense capped. I personally feel that the two points spent in PP and the one point spent in brutal impact would be better served in IW. This is due to the fact that bash is now far more inferior than before. Reasons being: 1) The glyph that reduces your AOE taunt 2) The range buff on growl 3) The 8 second CD of growl 4) Maul hitting an additional target from glyph.

I am honestly just looking for feedback/critisicm of this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscbzceRcczAo0Eczb)

Let me know what you think, any input & suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Well at the risk of discrediting myself, i totally ignored my own advice. Here is the spec i went with ATM. The reason for this is because dual specs are NYI so it is a 25 man build that will excel in heroics and competitive cat.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/druid/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000000051323 21323220103531203033105100550001000000000000000000 )

with the current state of the game, in heroics mangle is more or less taken off my bar. Even on trash in 25 mans i am tanking 3-4 things at a time while the warrior tanks the main kill target then taunts off me.

imp LOTP is a must, again ignoring my previous advice. It has not only saved my life so many times, but even in heroics i can agro 2 packs get a shield and a renew, and my priest can go run away and mine that vein back down the hall for 10 or so seconds while i hit barkskin.

The cap is 57 expertise, the talent reduces it to 47. You should not be gemming for those, threat is a non issue atm, you need to survive. Sharing rogue gear agi is amazing so usually gem shiftings or just straight solids, delicates in your DPS gear. Expertise before the softcap is rated 2:1 over hit rating, and 1:1 after that. It is one of the best stats in entire game.

that is a really solid build, but as you said, i push expertise, i always have, and i always will. drop 2 points out of feral instinct and get PP.

i have a lot of expertise gear just lieing around unusable because they are on capes rings and trinkets that will not be good until after blizzard makes the armor change. After that, i might reevalute and drop the talent but probably not.

edit: forgot to note, it is expertise, not expertise rating. I have 15 expertise on my gear which is 128 rating, that makes each point in this talent equal to 42.6666666 rating. using green gems that takes 7 gem slots or 126 stam. 126 stam for 2 talent points is pretty nice (for reference the 5 in HOTW give me 275 with my current gear level). Again with blue/epic gems this will change as well but for now it is really nice.

Scrubcat
11-18-2008, 10:20 AM
edit: forgot to note, it is expertise, not expertise rating. I have 15 expertise on my gear which is 128 rating

Bingo. I read that as expertise rating for some reason. That explains the 2 point selection & VASTLY removes the cloudiness of your decision to me. Thanks for the clarification.

On another note, have you had any adequate time to test lacerate vs. swipe with the lacerate rank buff?

Darksend
11-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Bingo. I read that as expertise rating for some reason. That explains the 2 point selection & VASTLY removes the cloudiness of your decision to me. Thanks for the clarification.

On another note, have you had any adequate time to test lacerate vs. swipe with the lacerate rank buff?

no been running heroics non stop.

swipe is just to powerful in the game right now because of the state of AOE tanking that i forget i have laccerate. I think it will always be worth it to start a fight with a 5 stack between mangle cooldowns and just refresh it every other rotation but i have no math to support that.

Scrubcat
11-18-2008, 10:32 AM
I appreciate all your time invested in putting this together, I have learned a lot. Thanks further for taking time to answer my questions personally.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxRGscrzceRcczAo0Eczb)

better :D

Qix
11-18-2008, 03:29 PM
I Did this for some guildies, so its formatted for our website, not for these forums, so its a little ugly.

Factions

Argent Crusade
Cloak of Holy extrmination Cloak of Holy Extermination - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44216)
Boots of the neverending path Boots of the Neverending Path - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44297)

Frenzyheart tribe
Azure Strappy Pants Azure Strappy Pants - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44117)
(Eh, so so, good +hit though )
Kirin Tor
Mind-Expanding Leggings Mind-Expanding Leggings - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44179)
Staff of Shrouded Mysteries Stave of Shrouded Mysteries - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44174)

Knights of the Ebon Blade
DarkHEart Chestguard Darkheart Chestguard - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44303)

Kalu'ak
Mastercraft Kalu'ak Fishing pole Mastercraft Kalu'ak Fishing Pole - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44050)
(Cause everyone wants one!!)
Whale Skin BReastplate Whale-Skin Breastplate - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44054)
The Oracles
Glitterscale Wrap Glitterscale Wrap - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44106)

The Sons of Hodir
Spaulders of Frozen KNives Spaulders of Frozen Knives - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44190)
Shoulder inscriptions
Mammoths
The Wyrmrest Accourd
Cloak of peaceful resolutions Cloak of Peaceful Resolutions - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44188)
Dragonfriend Bracers Dragonfriend Bracers - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44203)


QUEST REWARDS

Chest
Exotic Leather Tunic Exotic Leather Tunic - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44405)
Gloves
Handwraps of Preserved History Handwraps of Preserved History - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44397)
Head
HeadGuard of retaliation Headguard of Retaliation - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44409)
Shoulders
Charred LEather Shoulderguards Charred Leather Shoulderguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43194)
Shoulderpads Of Fleshworks Shoulderpads of Fleshwerks - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44379)
Wrist
Njorndar Furywraps Njorndar Furywraps - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44036)

Belt
Belt of Njorndar Belt of Njorndar - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43909)
Hardened Whipping Belt Hardened Whipping Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42802)
Refurbished Demolisher Gear belt Refurbished Demolisher Gear Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43892)
Pants
Grotesque Butchers PAnts Grotesque Butcher's Pants - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43896)
Boots
Glacier WAlkers Mukluks Glacier-walker's Mukluks - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39035)
Gryphon Hide Moccasins Gryphon Hide Moccasins - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43894)
BACK
Illskar's Greatcloak Illskar's Greatcloak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43924)
Hulking Abomination hide Cloak Hulking Abomination Hide Cloak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43889)
Staff
Staff of the sorrowful Chieftain Staff of the Sorrowful Chieftain - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41987)
Growlers Intimidation Growler's Intimidation - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43920)
Rings
Iceforged Battle Ring Iceforged Battle Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43190)
Ring Of Ancestral Protectors Ring of Ancestral Protectors - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39798)
Ring of Earthen Might Ring of Earthen Might - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43250)
Neck
Betrayers Choker Betrayer's Choker - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39655)


HEROIC INSTANCE DROPS


Weapon
Enraged Feral Staff Enraged Feral Staff - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37190)
Ingvar the Plunderer Utgarde Keep (Heroic)

Trinket
Defenders Code Defender's Code - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40257)
Drops in heroic NAxxramas, all bosses
Offering of sacrifice Offering of Sacrifice - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37638)
Gal'darah
Gundrak (Heroic)
INdestructablke Alchemists stone Indestructible Alchemist's Stone - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44323)
Crafted

RIngs
Keystone great ring Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37784)
The Prophet Tharon'ja
Drak'Tharon Keep (Heroic)
Titanium Earthguard Ring Titanium Earthguard Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42643)
Crafted
Nerubian Shield Ring Nerubian Shield Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37591)
Elder Nadox
Ahn'kahet (Heroic)
Ring of Earthen MIght Ring of Earthen Might - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43250)
Crafted
Band Of torture Band of Torture - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37257)
Drakos the Interrogator
The Oculus (Heroic)
Boots belt and Wrists the PvP set is best in class, start grinding :)
Boots
Polar Boots Polar Boots - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43592)
Crafted
Boots of Whirling Mist Boots of the Whirling Mist - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37666)
Sjonnir The Ironshaper
Halls of Stone (Heroic)
Boots of Captain Ellis Boots of Captain Ellis - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40748)
Badge gear vendor, dalaran
legs
Gored Hide Legguards Gored Hide Legguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37644)
Gal'darah
Gundrak (Heroic)
Mind Expanding Leggings Mind-Expanding Leggings - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44179)
Kirin tor Quartermaster ( rep vendor )
Ravenous Leggings of the Furbolg Ravenous Leggings of the Furbolg - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37374)
Gortok Palehoof
Utgarde Pinnacle (Heroic)
Leggings of the honored Leggings of the Honored - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44011)
Sartharion
The Obsidian Sanctum (Heroic)
BELT
Deadly Gladiators Belt of triumph Deadly Gladiator's Belt of Triumph - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41831)
Hateful Gladiators Belt of triumph Hateful Gladiator's Belt of Triumph - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41827)
Arena Vendors
Polar Cord Polar Cord - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43591)
Crafted
Trollwover Girdle Trollwoven Girdle - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43484)
Crafted
Jorach's Crocolisk skin Belt Jorach's Crocolisk Skin Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40694)
Badge vendor, Dalaran
Sharp Barbed Leather Belt Sharp-Barbed Leather Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37194)
Ingvar the Plunderer
Utgarde Keep (Heroic)

Gloves
Handwraps of PReserved History Handwraps of Preserved History - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44397)
QUEST!!!
Valorous Dreamwalker Handgrips Valorous Dreamwalker Handgrips - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40472)
T7 Sartharion
The Obsidian Sanctum (Heroic) ( I didnt think these dropped outside of Naxx )
Charged-Bolt Grips Charged-Bolt Grips - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37846)
Ionar
Halls of Lightning (Heroic)
Frosted Adroit Handguards Frosted Adroit Handguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40541)
Malygos
The Eye of Eternity (Heroic)

WRISTS
Wristwraps of the Cutthroat Wristwraps of the Cutthroat - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40738)
Badge vendor Dalaran (Valor)
Dragon Friend Braceres Dragonfriend Bracers - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44203)
REp Vendor THe Wyrmrest Accord ( exhaulted )
Chest
POlar Vest Polar Vest - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43590)
Crafted

BACK
Gale Proof Cloak Gale-Proof Cloak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43988)
Sartharion
The Obsidian Sanctum
Platinum Mesh Cloak Platinum Mesh Cloak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40722)
Badge gear, dalaran (Valor)
Cloak of gushing wound Cloak of the Gushing Wound - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43406)
Erekem
The Violet Hold (Heroic)
Cloak of Holy Extermination Cloak of Holy Extermination - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44216)
Argent Crusade Rep Vendor

SHOULDERS
Trollwoven Spaulders Trollwoven Spaulders - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43481)
Crafted
Concealment Shoulderpads Concealment Shoulderpads - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40437)
Sartharion
The Obsidian Sanctum (Heroic)
Spaulders of the careless thief Spaulders of the Careless Thief - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37139)
Grand Magus Telestra
The Nexus (Heroic)
Sprinting Shoulderpads Sprinting Shoulderpads - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37593)
Elder Nadox
Ahn'kahet (Heroic)
NECK
Favor of the dragon Queen Favor of the Dragon Queen - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44664)
QUEST!!!
NExus war champion Beads Nexus War Champion Beads - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44665)
QUEST
Titanium Impact choker Titanium Impact Choker - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42645)
Crafted
Amulet of wills Amulet of Wills - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35680)
Sjonnir The Ironshaper
Halls of Stone
(Has 336 armor!)
HEAD
Mask of the watcher Mask of the Watcher - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37293)
Cache of Eregos
The Oculus (Heroic)


That delicious 850 armor trinket doesnt actually drop until inside naxx, but I put it up there anyways even though this is a pre naxx style list.

There is very little crafted leather gear for bears at this time, the polar Frost resistance set ( boots, belt and gloves ) has high stamina, just put all agility gems in them. And the trollwoven set ( shoulders, belt ) also have good tank stats.

Darksend
11-20-2008, 01:14 PM
part of my problem is coming from full sunwell gear the set bonuses were way to good to break so most of the stuff leveling up i did not even look at, and sadly i already have full t7 so i did not look at any of the heroic loot either. going to edit the list a bit though thanks for the preliminary help.



I Did this for some guildies, so its formatted for our website, not for these forums, so its a little ugly.

Factions

Argent Crusade[/URL]
Boots of the neverending path Boots of the Neverending Path - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44216)

Frenzyheart tribe
Azure Strappy Pants Azure Strappy Pants - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44117)
(Eh, so so, good +hit though )
Kirin Tor
Mind-Expanding Leggings Mind-Expanding Leggings - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44179)
Staff of Shrouded Mysteries Stave of Shrouded Mysteries - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44174)


Kalu'ak
Mastercraft Kalu'ak Fishing pole Mastercraft Kalu'ak Fishing Pole - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44303)
(Cause everyone wants one!!)
Glitterscale Wrap Glitterscale Wrap - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44106)

The Sons of Hodir
Spaulders of Frozen KNives Spaulders of Frozen Knives - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44190)
Shoulder inscriptions
Mammoths
The Wyrmrest Accourd
Cloak of peaceful resolutions Cloak of Peaceful Resolutions - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44188)
Dragonfriend Bracers Dragonfriend Bracers - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44203)


QUEST REWARDS

Chest
Exotic Leather Tunic Exotic Leather Tunic - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44405)
Gloves
Handwraps of Preserved History Handwraps of Preserved History - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44397)
Head
HeadGuard of retaliation Headguard of Retaliation - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44409)
Shoulders
Charred LEather Shoulderguards Charred Leather Shoulderguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43194)
Shoulderpads Of Fleshworks Shoulderpads of Fleshwerks - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44379)
Wrist
Njorndar Furywraps Njorndar Furywraps - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44036)

Belt
Hardened Whipping Belt Hardened Whipping Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43909)
Refurbished Demolisher Gear belt Refurbished Demolisher Gear Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43892)
Boots (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43896)
Gryphon Hide Moccasins Gryphon Hide Moccasins - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43894)
BACK
Illskar's Greatcloak Illskar's Greatcloak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43924)
Hulking Abomination hide Cloak Hulking Abomination Hide Cloak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43889)
Staff
Staff of the sorrowful Chieftain Staff of the Sorrowful Chieftain - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41987)
Growlers Intimidation Growler's Intimidation - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43920)
Rings
Iceforged Battle Ring Iceforged Battle Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43190)
Ring of Earthen Might [URL="http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43250"]Ring of Earthen Might - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39798)
Neck
Betrayers Choker Betrayer's Choker - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39655)


HEROIC INSTANCE DROPS


Weapon
Enraged Feral Staff Enraged Feral Staff - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37190)
Ingvar the Plunderer Utgarde Keep (Heroic)

Trinket
Defenders Code Defender's Code - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40257)
Drops in heroic NAxxramas, all bosses
Offering of sacrifice Offering of Sacrifice - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37638)
Gal'darah
Gundrak (Heroic)
INdestructablke Alchemists stone Indestructible Alchemist's Stone - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44323)
Crafted

RIngs
Keystone great ring Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37784)
The Prophet Tharon'ja
Drak'Tharon Keep (Heroic)
Titanium Earthguard Ring Titanium Earthguard Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42643)
Crafted
Nerubian Shield Ring Nerubian Shield Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37591)
Elder Nadox
Ahn'kahet (Heroic)
Ring of Earthen MIght Ring of Earthen Might - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43250)
Crafted
Band Of torture Band of Torture - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37257)
Drakos the Interrogator
The Oculus (Heroic)
Boots belt and Wrists the PvP set is best in class, start grinding :)
Boots
Polar Boots Polar Boots - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43592)
Crafted
Boots of Whirling Mist Boots of the Whirling Mist - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37666)
Sjonnir The Ironshaper
Halls of Stone (Heroic)
Boots of Captain Ellis Boots of Captain Ellis - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40748)
Badge gear vendor, dalaran
legs
Gored Hide Legguards Gored Hide Legguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37644)
Gal'darah
Gundrak (Heroic)
Mind Expanding Leggings Mind-Expanding Leggings - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44179)
Kirin tor Quartermaster ( rep vendor )
Ravenous Leggings of the Furbolg Ravenous Leggings of the Furbolg - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37374)
Gortok Palehoof
Utgarde Pinnacle (Heroic)
Leggings of the honored Leggings of the Honored - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44011)
Sartharion
The Obsidian Sanctum (Heroic)
BELT
Deadly Gladiators Belt of triumph Deadly Gladiator's Belt of Triumph - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41831)
Hateful Gladiators Belt of triumph Hateful Gladiator's Belt of Triumph - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41827)
Arena Vendors
Polar Cord Polar Cord - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43591)
Crafted
Trollwover Girdle Trollwoven Girdle - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43484)
Crafted
Jorach's Crocolisk skin Belt Jorach's Crocolisk Skin Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40694)
Badge vendor, Dalaran
Sharp Barbed Leather Belt Sharp-Barbed Leather Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37194)
Ingvar the Plunderer
Utgarde Keep (Heroic)

Gloves
Handwraps of PReserved History Handwraps of Preserved History - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44397)
QUEST!!!
Valorous Dreamwalker Handgrips Valorous Dreamwalker Handgrips - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40472)
T7 Sartharion
The Obsidian Sanctum (Heroic) ( I didnt think these dropped outside of Naxx )
Charged-Bolt Grips Charged-Bolt Grips - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37846)
Ionar
Halls of Lightning (Heroic)
Frosted Adroit Handguards Frosted Adroit Handguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40541)
Malygos
The Eye of Eternity (Heroic)

WRISTS
Wristwraps of the Cutthroat Wristwraps of the Cutthroat - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40738)
Badge vendor Dalaran (Valor)
Dragon Friend Braceres Dragonfriend Bracers - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44203)
REp Vendor THe Wyrmrest Accord ( exhaulted )
Chest
POlar Vest Polar Vest - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43590)
Crafted

BACK
Gale Proof Cloak Gale-Proof Cloak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43988)
Sartharion
The Obsidian Sanctum
Platinum Mesh Cloak Platinum Mesh Cloak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40722)
Badge gear, dalaran (Valor)
Cloak of gushing wound Cloak of the Gushing Wound - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43406)
Erekem
The Violet Hold (Heroic)
Cloak of Holy Extermination Cloak of Holy Extermination - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44216)
Argent Crusade Rep Vendor

SHOULDERS
Trollwoven Spaulders Trollwoven Spaulders - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43481)
Crafted
Concealment Shoulderpads Concealment Shoulderpads - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40437)
Sartharion
The Obsidian Sanctum (Heroic)
Spaulders of the careless thief Spaulders of the Careless Thief - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37139)
Grand Magus Telestra
The Nexus (Heroic)
Sprinting Shoulderpads Sprinting Shoulderpads - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37593)
Elder Nadox
Ahn'kahet (Heroic)
NECK
Favor of the dragon Queen Favor of the Dragon Queen - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44664)
QUEST!!!
NExus war champion Beads Nexus War Champion Beads - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44665)
QUEST
Titanium Impact choker Titanium Impact Choker - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42645)
Crafted
Amulet of wills Amulet of Wills - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35680)
Sjonnir The Ironshaper
Halls of Stone
(Has 336 armor!)
HEAD
Mask of the watcher Mask of the Watcher - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37293)
Cache of Eregos
The Oculus (Heroic)


That delicious 850 armor trinket doesnt actually drop until inside naxx, but I put it up there anyways even though this is a pre naxx style list.

There is very little crafted leather gear for bears at this time, the polar Frost resistance set ( boots, belt and gloves ) has high stamina, just put all agility gems in them. And the trollwoven set ( shoulders, belt ) also have good tank stats.


removed some of the things that are not really that good due to lack of stat balance (0 stam and only AP and agi or lots of stam but no agi and lost of ArP)

going to edit this in to the main post come tuesday when i have more time and credit you in the main post along with some items you missed such as the 111 stam trinket from azjol heroic.

Doomhamer
11-21-2008, 04:12 PM
I'm noticing a lot of tanks that are carrying over from SWP are still using the Shliks cloak and im wondering does the 120 armor (give or take) really out way the 30-50 stam and other stats on similar cloaks?

Darksend
11-22-2008, 12:13 AM
I'm noticing a lot of tanks that are carrying over from SWP are still using the Shliks cloak and im wondering does the 120 armor (give or take) really out way the 30-50 stam and other stats on similar cloaks?

till the patch, absolutely. i am next in line for the next tanking cape that drops in 25 mans so im not buying or crafting anything.

Elcazador
11-25-2008, 09:17 AM
Ok, now that we have every piece of leather gear you could possibly get in WotLK linked, would it be possible to sort it out by spec? Don't get me wrong, it's a great list, but it would be that much better if dps and tanking were seperate. :)

Darksend
11-25-2008, 09:31 AM
Ok, now that we have every piece of leather gear you could possibly get in WotLK linked, would it be possible to sort it out by spec? Don't get me wrong, it's a great list, but it would be that much better if dps and tanking were seperate. :)


bear guide coming in 2 weeks i was going to do it today but i had a meeting this morning

Windsong
12-10-2008, 11:56 PM
theres is also a druid staff that drops in H violet hold , Staff of trickery not sure if I linked it right The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=37883)

Fujiiro
12-12-2008, 11:56 AM
I've noticed that even in your tanking build you took Rend and Tear, despite noting that Lacerate may not be worthwhile.

For myself, I rarely use Maul, other than as a rage dump, or when I need a little extra threat. While I accept that Rend and Tear is a solid talent for Kitty DPS, especially after the recent changes to Rake, I really don't feel it adds enough to a bear tank build to justify taking it.

Do you feel the bonus damage to Maul is really worth spending 5 talent points? Or do you take R&T just for the cat DPS bonus?

Abranor
12-12-2008, 01:15 PM
With the zomg aoe zergfest that is WoTLK dungeon content, glyphed maul w/ Rend and Tear is awsome. When tanking just about any content I can spam swipe and queue Maul with little to no times where I don't have enough rage. Maul is a huge source of threat for me when tanking along with a major amount of damage.

Seeing as how all the dungeons are zergfests, the groups expectations are for you to AoE tank everything (at least thats how it is on my server). You have to spam swipe every GCD and that doesn't leave much time for Mangle on your main target leaving Maul the choice for the big chunks of threat to the main target (and secondary since your gimping yourself if you don't have it glyphed) that might be getting single targeted. After a good amount of swipes, and a few tab lacerates, your mauls will be doing tons of threat and damage.

Darksend
12-14-2008, 01:34 AM
I've noticed that even in your tanking build you took Rend and Tear, despite noting that Lacerate may not be worthwhile.

For myself, I rarely use Maul, other than as a rage dump, or when I need a little extra threat. While I accept that Rend and Tear is a solid talent for Kitty DPS, especially after the recent changes to Rake, I really don't feel it adds enough to a bear tank build to justify taking it.

Do you feel the bonus damage to Maul is really worth spending 5 talent points? Or do you take R&T just for the cat DPS bonus?



my spec is exclusivly for 25 man content, and lacerate is accually much much more threat than before, in short the threat modifier is 207.35, swipes threat is damage done x 207.35 = threat done.

lacerates threat is initial damage done x 103.67 + bleed damage done x 103.67 (which in the end works out to be damage done x 103.67). and its late so i cant find my notes but there is an innate threat value also

edit found it: lacerates initial application has 515 innate threat

dynamitedean
12-18-2008, 03:21 AM
ok i need abit of help here.....i got rawr but i'm not to sure what i'm looking at...I've inputted all my gear in and i got all these points that its spat out a me
now how do i knw from what it says whether i'm geared enough or not?

Abranor
12-18-2008, 09:59 AM
ok i need abit of help here.....i got rawr but i'm not to sure what i'm looking at...I've inputted all my gear in and i got all these points that its spat out a me
now how do i knw from what it says whether i'm geared enough or not?

I'd recommend reading the information on RAWR at the DruidWiki site. The Druid Wiki ╗ Rawr (http://druid.wikispaces.com/Rawr)

Melange
12-19-2008, 11:11 AM
IMO Rend and Tear has no place in a tanking build. Threat on a single target is just not an issue right now. That is the only place that Rend and Tear would really help. Also it is not needed if you go for a hybrid build with Mangle DPS. Mangle DPS does considerable damage. A full DPS spec, using Mangle with 2T6 will do more damage than a full DPS spec with best in slot using Shred.

This is my current spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRchuho0Eczb)

If you want to go with more tanking, you would drop the shapeshifter talents and get Infected Wounds and two points of Tenacity or two Imp Mark. The 4% crit is really not THAT big of a DPS increase for cat. King of the Jungle is a large DPS increase and should not be dropped if you want to DPS.

Deathveil
12-20-2008, 01:59 PM
I have a feral druid that i use for tanking, and I also offheal when needed. I have been having a hard time just finding what stats would be recommended for beginning raids to start with an then build from there. The talent builds and descussions are great but is it possible just to get a breakdown of it all?
What amount of agility, hp, armor, crit, dodge and expertise should a druid tank have when starting? And for a healing set what would be recommended for beginning raids? This would help me greatly. TY

dynamitedean
12-24-2008, 01:02 AM
I have a feral druid that i use for tanking, and I also offheal when needed. I have been having a hard time just finding what stats would be recommended for beginning raids to start with an then build from there. The talent builds and descussions are great but is it possible just to get a breakdown of it all?
What amount of agility, hp, armor, crit, dodge and expertise should a druid tank have when starting? And for a healing set what would be recommended for beginning raids? This would help me greatly. TY


I've been trying to find the answer to this question myself...i found that the recommended armor on druids should be 49-50k which will give you 75% mitigation, I'm sitting at 26884 at the moment which gives me 66% mitigation I'm expecting this to drop after the next patch...apparently druids should aim for 50% dodge (honestly cant see this happening the highest i could get on rawr is 41% with all there best in slot..buffed) after which defense should be piled on (even though its not needed)...other than that there doesn't seem to be any websites that actually tell u wat u should be aiming for....If you do find something please share it around..:D

Abranor
12-24-2008, 07:47 AM
I've been trying to find the answer to this question myself...i found that the recommended armor on druids should be 49-50k which will give you 75% mitigation, I'm sitting at 26884 at the moment which gives me 66% mitigation I'm expecting this to drop after the next patch...apparently druids should aim for 50% dodge (honestly cant see this happening the highest i could get on rawr is 41% with all there best in slot..buffed) after which defense should be piled on (even though its not needed)...other than that there doesn't seem to be any websites that actually tell u wat u should be aiming for....If you do find something please share it around..:D

/scratches head... 49-50k armor starting for beginning raids???


Deathveil, if you try and gather a good deal of the gear that is listed in the "Pre-Raid Tank Gear" thread that should give you a good idea of what is expected going into raids. 27-29k Armor, 33-35% dodge, 29-31k hp, those would be my starting figures for being raid ready, but not necessarily MT ready. That is also my personal opinion, some may say more, some may say less but I'd say its a good starting point. You've never really said what your wanting to tank, are you wanting to just OT some trash or are you going to MT? If your going to OT you could probably be a little lower than that and be *ok*.


Do heroics, get best in slot from them for both bear and healing, and you'll be fine is the easy answer. Nobody likes to spoon feed people so I'd say do some more homework, the answers your looking for are out there.

Jabouty
12-24-2008, 12:39 PM
There's no reasonable way to reach that amount of armor with the changes to bear armor that hit with wrath...

Dlimy
12-24-2008, 09:06 PM
Im gittin to the point where im bout to give up tryin to tank....i cant seem to find any gear to git my dodge up anymore...im max on defense and my dodge is at about 32.02% is that good enough or i need more? Im at 80 and would like to start tankin heroics and 10 mans but i dont see that happening thanks for any input....maybe some tips yall can give me pls to like any inscripts i can git to help me out thanx again

dynamitedean
12-25-2008, 06:46 AM
like i said thats what i read....i honestly thinks in crap...but anyways

Kion
12-25-2008, 04:28 PM
I haven't seen a pure tank build yet. I would consider this a pure tank build for 5, 10 and 25 man tanking.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZVGGscrzceRccuAo0E0z)

I have FA because it is useful in all content. It is useful in any fight where you OT in a different spot then your MT and have to be self reliant on your debuffs(Grobulus, Four Horsemen, etc...). ILOTP is a mitigation of sorts because every 6 seconds you will gain health that has been lost which can be used in all content. All other talents(NS/MS) help with threat which is NOT needed what so ever with the 50% swipe boost. All mitigation talents should be taken over any DPS/Threat building talent for a tank.

Now onto the DPS spec pre and post cat swipe.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZEMMsfrz0eo0huAo0Eczb)

All these talents ADD to damage. To get the most out of cat you must take all these talents. SI is a filler point that I find very useful but is not needed. If you believe one point in Thick Hide or FI is more beneficial go for it. It leaves 2 left over talents that I put in ILOTP but I could see them in NI as well.

The new swipe build will look like this and add ALL dps talents.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZEGMcfrz0eo0huAo0Eczb)

It takes out of SI and ILOTP and puts them into FI. You shouldn't worry about survivability. We have bear form and shadowmeld now. Quick tip, if you are pulling to much aggro use shadowmeld. It drops all aggro and then you can go crazy again.

These are pure builds, we don't NEED to be hybrids anymore. Spec for one or the other and you will see better gains.

Edit: I forgot about glyphs.

Tanking I would go with Maul, Regen and Mangle(If you have Cats they will thank you later). For minors I would go with C. Roar and Thorns, it really does help if you do quick pulls.

Dps I would go with Mangle, Rip and Rebirth(major). Rebirth is for when you bring the healer/tank back from the dead so he doesn't end up dead again right away. Serious, try it. Rebirth will save your raid more then maul/regen. For minors Dash. Dash should be obvious for when kitty charge is down. The other minors are your choice, they don't effect dps and I usually just keep my minors from tanking.

Deathveil
12-30-2008, 11:44 AM
Thanks guys for all the replys, this does help. I think from your input im on the right track. Right now I am mt most of the time for our heroics and 10 man raids, and so far are only doing early naxx and OS. I have about 33% dodge, my defense is at 410 with the talents, and I have 27k hp and 22k armor unbuffed. I think by going with the gear suggested that is how I am getting this up and I will just continue to get more of the gear. Thanks again.
-Deathveil/Padanata

Deathveil
12-30-2008, 11:53 AM
BTW, Dlimy, if you want to see my char, the gear I had obtained so far is pretty easy to come by and that has helped my dodge alot. Check out my armory and maybe you can get this too. Thats the only way I know to explain it. Sry if this doesnt help.
*Note that this is not in my bear form so my dodge appears lower atm. Also, I am working on alot of expertiese gear as well and I wouldnt not change it for the world. Some peices I dont have yet that I am working on are the pants in heroic gundrak, and some more badge gear with dodge and expertiese. The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Antonidas&n=Padanata)
-Deathveil/Padanata

Ferim
12-30-2008, 02:02 PM
/agree with Death, before I started getting tier I already had 35% dodge plus. Right now with the way I my gear I sit at 38% self-buffed. I understand that at some point that much dodge has diminishing returns and is not as beneficial. Anyone care to give me some input on that? If its too high of a percentage or not because if it is too high I can just replace some of agi gems with stam instead.
here is my toon
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dunemaul&n=Ferim)
Thank in advance!

Also, Deathviel; that is an AWFUL lot of hit rating. I don't chase after it or stack it but I threw a +hit rating enchant on my gloves (call me a nub) before that I had 46 hit rating after that enchant I got about 82 hit rating and 33 expertise. Also, with these gloves Gilt-Edged Leather Gauntlets - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37409), if and when hit becomes and issue, those gloves put me and about 112. Again, any input?

AlphaMoose
12-30-2008, 10:31 PM
IMO Rend and Tear has no place in a tanking build. Threat on a single target is just not an issue right now. That is the only place that Rend and Tear would really help.
It's a pretty big improvement to DPS and there are really no alternative talents for mitigation that you won't already have.

Rawf
12-31-2008, 03:03 AM
I've tanked every heroic and every 10 man raid (bar sartharion with drakes up), and over half of the 25 man content and this spec has worked perfectly for me. I'm sure I got every mitigation point, and maxed my threat as much as I could.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Frostmourne&n=Rawf)

I havn't run into any threat problems because of my fairly low hit rating / expertise either. On patchwerk I sit around 5.5k TPS spiking up to 9k very occasionally (I usually have to change to just whites so I don't pull aggro, even with Vigilance up).

If anyone bothers looking at my gear I just want to make two quick comments, I do have tier 7 gloves but those quest blue hands are better then tier 7 by far for survivability, about the same on mitigation (depending how you gem the t7), and not terribly far behind on threat either (i.e. VERY recommended). Also, the neck I'm currently wearing is only in use until the upcoming armour change, after which I'll change to the Chained Military Gorget

Armour should be stacked on everything until the patch is out. However, don't run heroics for it, run heroics for the best gear for the upcoming armour change.

Rawr is also amazingly helpful. If you change the filter so that it doesn't show gear that you aren't progressed enough to get yet, you can see what gear you can get that will benefit you the most (change to Direct Upgrade option instead of a specific slot).

Again, armour > everything for now.

Darksend
12-31-2008, 01:57 PM
k so i just got back from a 2 week vacation, i am currently working on the gear guide but since is was written specifically for after the patch i have been holding out of finishing it because of RL things and leveling my alt.

that guide i plan to release as a section of my second edition feral guide once the patch hits.

now to address some of the questions since ive been gone:


IMO Rend and Tear has no place in a tanking build. Threat on a single target is just not an issue right now. That is the only place that Rend and Tear would really help. Also it is not needed if you go for a hybrid build with Mangle DPS. Mangle DPS does considerable damage. A full DPS spec, using Mangle with 2T6 will do more damage than a full DPS spec with best in slot using Shred.

This is my current spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRchuho0Eczb)

If you want to go with more tanking, you would drop the shapeshifter talents and get Infected Wounds and two points of Tenacity or two Imp Mark. The 4% crit is really not THAT big of a DPS increase for cat. King of the Jungle is a large DPS increase and should not be dropped if you want to DPS.

if maul is more than 40% of your total damage than rend and tear is your single best threat talent per point. also, i am not sure what level of progression you are at, but threat on single target can defiantly still be an issue. in my current tanking gear i have 94 hit rating and 39 expertise including primal precision, when the patch hits allowing me to drop my armor cape neck ring and trinkets, i will still have the same ammount of armor i have now, and 190 hit rating and 50 expertise, as well as gain 300 more ap. if your DPS is geared in full 25 man gear, they can still catch you on threat

remember, not everyone has access to 2t6 so suggesting building a spec around that is not very helpful. also, do you have math to support your statement that mangle is more DPS, because everything i have raid states the opposite, in fact, i have read so far as even with imp mangle and no shredding attacks (60 energy shreds) that a shred rotation is still better DPS.

that aside the build you posted is a VERY STRONG spec if you do not need infected wounds, i would still take the points in rend and tear over MSS though.


I've been trying to find the answer to this question myself...i found that the recommended armor on druids should be 49-50k which will give you 75% mitigation, I'm sitting at 26884 at the moment which gives me 66% mitigation I'm expecting this to drop after the next patch...apparently druids should aim for 50% dodge (honestly cant see this happening the highest i could get on rawr is 41% with all there best in slot..buffed) after which defense should be piled on (even though its not needed)...other than that there doesn't seem to be any websites that actually tell u wat u should be aiming for....If you do find something please share it around..:D

50Kish is the armor cap, but as for needing that to start heroics, sorry but that information is just wrong, i have full 25 man gear and i only sit at 32K unbuffed, i can get to 37K by changing one trinket but no higher than that.

also i have no idea where 50% dodge comes from, i only have 37 in bear form unbuffed.

defense is useless, if it is on the gear then fine, but never ever gem for it.

I just went to my bank and put on all my old T6/sunwell gear. I have 22.5K hp 34% dodge and 22K armor, thats the gear i wore for the server 1st clears of all 10 mans and 25 man naxx and sarth. i am missing one of my rings so my arrmor was probably around the 25K mark but thats probably a good mark to shoot for.



I haven't seen a pure tank build yet. I would consider this a pure tank build for 5, 10 and 25 man tanking.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZVGGscrzceRccuAo0E0z)

I have FA because it is useful in all content. It is useful in any fight where you OT in a different spot then your MT and have to be self reliant on your debuffs(Grobulus, Four Horsemen, etc...). ILOTP is a mitigation of sorts because every 6 seconds you will gain health that has been lost which can be used in all content. All other talents(NS/MS) help with threat which is NOT needed what so ever with the 50% swipe boost. All mitigation talents should be taken over any DPS/Threat building talent for a tank.

i see where you are coming from with this spec but your logic behind it is really bad and i completely disagree with it, drop im mangle and either 2 in FI or 2 in RnT. There is absolutly no reason not to have ferocity.



Now onto the DPS spec pre and post cat swipe.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZEMMsfrz0eo0huAo0Eczb)

All these talents ADD to damage. To get the most out of cat you must take all these talents. SI is a filler point that I find very useful but is not needed. If you believe one point in Thick Hide or FI is more beneficial go for it. It leaves 2 left over talents that I put in ILOTP but I could see them in NI as well.if you would have bothered to read the original post you would see this is the exact same spec i already posted only you have 2 missing points that i put in imp LOTP


The new swipe build will look like this and add ALL dps talents.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZEGMcfrz0eo0huAo0Eczb)

It takes out of SI and ILOTP and puts them into FI. You shouldn't worry about survivability. We have bear form and shadowmeld now. Quick tip, if you are pulling to much aggro use shadowmeld. It drops all aggro and then you can go crazy again.Shadowmeld - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=58984)

did you miss the part about

"Any threat is restored versus enemies still in combat upon cancellation of this effect."



These are pure builds, we don't NEED to be hybrids anymore. Spec for one or the other and you will see better gains.This completely depends on your guild. if you are in a 25 man guild i still say the best spec (until the release dual spec) is the one i currently have

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Black+Dragonflight&n=Darksend)




Edit: I forgot about glyphs.

Tanking I would go with Maul, Regen and Mangle(If you have Cats they will thank you later). For minors I would go with C. Roar and Thorns, it really does help if you do quick pulls.

i know at one point i spoke down about glyph of growl, but having seen the other choices, most guilds run a trauma warrior anyway and most guilds do not run 2 ferals, there is no reason to have glyph of mangle for either bear or cat unless you only run 10 mans, and even then you still should have growl over mangle for bear.




Dps I would go with Mangle, Rip and Rebirth(major). Rebirth is for when you bring the healer/tank back from the dead so he doesn't end up dead again right away. Serious, try it. Rebirth will save your raid more then maul/regen. For minors Dash. Dash should be obvious for when kitty charge is down. The other minors are your choice, they don't effect dps and I usually just keep my minors from tanking.

i actually had this recomendation in my second edition guide already



I've tanked every heroic and every 10 man raid (bar sartharion with drakes up), and over half of the 25 man content and this spec has worked perfectly for me. I'm sure I got every mitigation point, and maxed my threat as much as I could.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Frostmourne&n=Rawf)

I havn't run into any threat problems because of my fairly low hit rating / expertise either. On patchwerk I sit around 5.5k TPS spiking up to 9k very occasionally (I usually have to change to just whites so I don't pull aggro, even with Vigilance up).

If anyone bothers looking at my gear I just want to make two quick comments, I do have tier 7 gloves but those quest blue hands are better then tier 7 by far for survivability, about the same on mitigation (depending how you gem the t7), and not terribly far behind on threat either (i.e. VERY recommended). Also, the neck I'm currently wearing is only in use until the upcoming armour change, after which I'll change to the Chained Military Gorget

Armour should be stacked on everything until the patch is out. However, don't run heroics for it, run heroics for the best gear for the upcoming armour change.

Rawr is also amazingly helpful. If you change the filter so that it doesn't show gear that you aren't progressed enough to get yet, you can see what gear you can get that will benefit you the most (change to Direct Upgrade option instead of a specific slot).

Again, armour > everything for now.

the key point in that "FOR NOW" as i already stated i have a second edition feral guide almost ready complete with a gear list this time writen specifically for these changes

Rawf
12-31-2008, 11:20 PM
Cool. Can't wait to read it.

Also, just picked up Valorous gloves off Archavon (lol), added a 7 agi 11 stam gem and a 18 stam LW enchant. Comparing, in bear form, to the quest blue with the same enchant (Handwraps of Preserved History), Valorous has 178 more armour (0.11% reduction in 3.0.3), 27 less stam, 2 more agi, 0.03% more dodge, 15 more AP, 1.12% more crit and 1.25% higher chance to be parried.... I really don't know which one to wear lol. I'm just wearing Valorous atm because it looks cooler. The 2 set is kinda boring too.

I don't get how Blizzard can add such an overpowered item and make it so easily obtainable.

Darksend
01-01-2009, 04:09 AM
They already nerfed them on PTR, still good if you do not have epic gloves but any epic gloves will be better than them now

Kion
01-01-2009, 07:00 PM
I see where you are coming from with this spec but your logic behind it is really bad and i completely disagree with it, drop im mangle and either 2 in FI or 2 in RnT. There is absolutly no reason not to have ferocity.


This completely depends on your guild. if you are in a 25 man guild i still say the best spec (until the release dual spec) is the one i currently have

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Black+Dragonflight&n=Darksend)

Tell me how ferocity adds to mitigation more then FA and I will pick it up for tanking. Untill then, even if situational, ill take FA over Ferocity. Druid tanks need help with aoe tanking so I personally would still take FI over a single target talent like Ferocity. I would rather take R+T because maul glyphed will add more threat to my second target to die. Still better then single target ferocity. At this point in the game, yes 25 mans, I have never been rage starved enough for that talent to matter. I could see dropping IM mangle and putting those 3 points into Ferocity but I still would maintain 5/5 FA and 3/3 FI.

For the second part of the .qoute. I said it is not NEEDED to bring a hybrid build. If you are brought as a cat one should fully spec cat. If I am brought as a tank I am fully going to spec tank. If I am brought as an OT/DPS I will spec as such. We CAN be pures and if put in the position should bring the best build for the job.

You do a very good job and your guides help out the community. I just disagree with a few points and putting those ideas out there to build further conversation.

Edit: Oh and I still use shadowmeld. Please read up on your posts before you come down on ppl as an elitist. If I am building to much threat it takes me off the targets radar and by the time I get back to dpsing my threat is effectively dumped. The reason? Re-read what shadowmeld does.

Dimness
01-03-2009, 03:03 PM
Noob question:
I see a lot of tanking specs without Improved Mark of the Wild. Is that because you should remove the two points and dump them somewhere else for raiding?

I've done the easy cheesy raids like 10 and 25 man vault. And so far, I've come across very few druids.

dynamitedean
01-03-2009, 09:13 PM
I've copied my toon to the ptr.....minor loses lost 240 helath in bear form and 0.42% dodge for the new patch
but i now have 31k armor...survival of the fittest must make up for the trinket and ring armor loss....just my opinion before any1 starts flaming me...anyways it is just the PTR to it could change

Ferim
01-05-2009, 08:22 PM
It very well could just be the PTR, but correct me if I'm wrong I remember reading a blue post that we are getting an armor BOOST. Any info on this would be great!

Immortal
01-06-2009, 01:56 AM
It can be an armor boost only for undergeared druids, for example those, who don't have trinkets and necks with armor. But anyway this change adds us some flexibility, we can now use a lot more different gear without gimping our stats.

Skrumple
01-11-2009, 02:20 PM
Check out my Tank spec and tell me what you think

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Anvilmar&n=Ekil)

FuzzyWuZi
01-13-2009, 01:40 AM
I cant find the macros??

nefaisrien
01-13-2009, 06:40 AM
Not quite sure if this is the right place to post this, but here goes.

I'm trying to figure out what the best way is to generate group threat on aoe pulls. I'm still a fairly new tank, was only 68 when WotLK came out and have never seen a raid on this toon. I have run some heroics, just got the dodge badge trinket (yay!) and have a few nicer pieces. Pre lich, I would tab swipe, tab swipe, because of the 3 target max. Now with no limit, I just pick the fist kill target, FF, run in with auto attack on, demo roar to grab some attention, swipe, maul (I have the glyph), swipe, swipe, maul, throw in the occasional mangle to try to proc my idol. I don't bother rotating through mobs most of the time, because I usually have their attention. But, every once in a while, someone goes crazy on the non-kill target, and it gets away from me. I'm usually good at growling it back, but my hit's a bit low, so it misses sometimes and I have to go charging after it to lacerate it back to me, meanwhile, loosing some threat to the healer on the other targets.

All in all, does it sound like this is right for aoe?

Single target, yesterday I was having some issues with an enhancement shaman who was either pulling or getting quite close on single target pulls. (His response was, 'I take pride in that' to which I thought, no more growling stuff off of you bud.) My normal routine for single target stuff, is to FF on pull, auto attack on while I run in, mangle, lacerate, lacerate, roar, mangle, start tossing in some mauls, and keep up the mangle, lacerate, lacerate routine. Am I missing something? or does this seem about right?
I'm not a fan of charging in, as I have a holy priest and I know what it feels like to have the tank all of a sudden go out of range.

jere
01-13-2009, 06:54 AM
I do different things depending on the situation. In some cases, I start off with a hurricane on all the targets, switch to bear and let them all funnel to me, then I start swiping. In other cases, I might pop enrage, queue up a maul on my first target and follow with a mangle on my second target and then switch to my third target and start swiping. There are various tricks you can use.

Dimness
01-13-2009, 05:37 PM
Hate to say this, but charging in can be your best friend. It gives you time to build threat, and it stuns the target for a short while (well, on most mobs anyways).

I start with swipe followed by maul followed by swipe, tab target and throw a mangle and lacerate, swipe some more, maul, etc. etc.

Charge is your friend.

Ferim
01-13-2009, 08:31 PM
I agree about feral charge, on casters it also serves as an interrupt as stated above :) and that little stun that it gives off is also damage that you don't take :P

Honeyblossom
01-15-2009, 08:47 PM
never mind this post

Skrumple
01-16-2009, 06:11 PM
is there any way that u could possibly make a bear do good dps

nefaisrien
01-18-2009, 07:07 AM
Thanks for this. I'll give it a whirl:)

Norellicus
01-25-2009, 12:32 AM
I disagree with your notion that Imp. MotW is a waste; I would be more inclined to say 5/5 Furor is the waste now unless you're doing serious pvp and need to be able to count on that 10 rage/60 energy asap. When doing PvE content you can easily shift in and out until you get the 10 rage (or enrage and let it tick up before engaging), and the 60 energy is a nonissue for DPS since powershifting is no longer viable. Coupled with the new energy mechanics it just isn't necessary.

Meanwhile Imp. MotW gives you an additional ~15 points in your base stats, another 250 armor, and a little extra resist (but this last part probably doesn't mean much in a raid since it'll be overwritten by any resistance totem/aura iirc).

Since the context of this guide is entirely PvE-centric, it doesn't make any sense to go 5/5 Furor, not anymore.

Honeyblossom
01-25-2009, 01:30 AM
I disagree with your notion that Imp. MotW is a waste; I would be more inclined to say 5/5 Furor is the waste now unless you're doing serious pvp and need to be able to count on that 10 rage/60 energy asap. When doing PvE content you can easily shift in and out until you get the 10 rage (or enrage and let it tick up before engaging), and the 60 energy is a nonissue for DPS since powershifting is no longer viable. Coupled with the new energy mechanics it just isn't necessary.

Meanwhile Imp. MotW gives you an additional ~15 points in your base stats, another 250 armor, and a little extra resist (but this last part probably doesn't mean much in a raid since it'll be overwritten by any resistance totem/aura iirc).

Since the context of this guide is entirely PvE-centric, it doesn't make any sense to go 5/5 Furor, not anymore.

Chances are that the rest of the raid would atleast contain one more druid and both balance and resto would rather take imp MotW before furor.

Norellicus
01-25-2009, 04:56 PM
Chances are that the rest of the raid would atleast contain one more druid and both balance and resto would rather take imp MotW before furor.

In a 25 man, sure. I wouldn't put money on that kind of guarantee in any 10 man scenario though, so it could still prove useful there, plus soloing efficiency being boosted slightly.

Shaiel
02-01-2009, 06:37 AM
It would only really matter in 25 mans. 10 mans and heroics you don't really need imp motw. However, powershifting can be pretty clutch at times, and having that extra rage guaranteed also helps. Personally I also take intensity for those times in heroics where I'm rage starved and need to build aggro fast.

As far as dps goes, that full energy bar is handy when you switch from bear to cat in OT situations. It's also nice when you shift out of form to brez or innervate and come back with energy.

B°rr
02-06-2009, 02:03 PM
I like the heroic drop gear list,
is there a guide on how to tank those particular instances/raids?

indeed i am lazy :)

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/wsig.php/8983434EoRsM.png (http://sigs.guildlaunch.net)

Darksend
02-06-2009, 03:27 PM
I like the heroic drop gear list,
is there a guide on how to tank those particular instances/raids?

indeed i am lazy :)


1)
/macro
/cast Swipe
/cast Maul

2) ???

3) epics


seriously though when i 1st hit 80 and was doing 5-10 heroics a day i never hit mangle once, just spam swiped my way through them

lucero
02-16-2009, 01:11 AM
imp LOTP is a must, again ignoring my previous advice. It has not only saved my life so many times, but even in heroics i can agro 2 packs get a shield and a renew, and my priest can go run away and mine that vein back down the hall for 10 or so seconds while i hit barkskin.

The cap is 57 expertise, the talent reduces it to 47. You should not be gemming for those, threat is a non issue atm, you need to survive. Sharing rogue gear agi is amazing so usually gem shiftings or just straight solids, delicates in your DPS gear. Expertise before the softcap is rated 2:1 over hit rating, and 1:1 after that. It is one of the best stats in entire game.


Ah, man...it is so nice to run into a druid that seems to tank like I tank and cat like I cat.

I've been saying all along that imp mangle is trash while cats all over my server pick it up. These are not cats out soloing (where it might actually be useful) either, but cats who fancy themselves raiders. I would never tell anyone how to play their class so I humbly state my opinion and go on my way, but seriously...if one is behind the target (where one should be), one should be shredding, not mangling.

Expertise right now is so nice. I'm still leaving it enchanted on bracers in spite of +40 stam. I don't come close to dying unless something really screwy goes down.

The only thing I really don't agree on is IW and OoC. I have no issues with rage at all so I only spec OoC in cat builds, where the free combo moves are nice. I also don't max naturalist, although it isn't a bad idea - one that I will probably try.

I have a tank build that allows me to still pull 2k dps in cat form so the differences in my talent are only 2/5 naturalist, no OoC (14 in resto total), no imp. mangle, I put those three in KotJ (for the kitty tiger's fury buff primarily, although enrage dmg bonus is nice), I take IW maxed and have three points that I throw around in BI, Shredding Attacks (for kitty - I rarely use lacerate anymore) and Rend and Tear (I always have at least 3/5 R&T, whether I max or not depends on the day and my mood, lol.) Oh, and if I want to increase my dps in cat a bit I might throw a point or two into feral aggression for the ferocious bite buff instead of spending it in one of the aforementioned spots.

I think your advice is nearly spot on. More than anything, it was nice to see someone point out the flaws of imp. mangle for cats.

lucero
02-16-2009, 01:27 AM
with the zomg aoe zergfest that is wotlk dungeon content, glyphed maul w/ rend and tear is awsome.

qft

lucero
02-16-2009, 01:47 AM
Noob question:
I see a lot of tanking specs without Improved Mark of the Wild. Is that because you should remove the two points and dump them somewhere else for raiding?

I've done the easy cheesy raids like 10 and 25 man vault. And so far, I've come across very few druids.

No feral GROUP build should have this talent. Leave improved marking for healers or boomkins, that's the reason you see no ferals with it. If the raid doesn't have one, oh well. There are a few fights that are dps races, such as Archavon or Patchwerk, where having an IMotW might actually make the difference between a kill and a wipe for an undergeared group, but it'll never be worth the sacrifice it will cost you in other talents.

Darksend
02-16-2009, 06:05 AM
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRc0kAo0Eczb)

My new spec of choice once dual spec comes out

i currently have Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxMGssrzceRc0uAo0Eczb)

2 in feral instinct moved to KOTJ and the third to shredding attacks because i still DPS quite a bit

Pwnsammich
02-17-2009, 09:08 PM
I've been gearing up my feral set through 5,10, and 25 man groups by healing in preparation for dual spec. Right now unbuffed, unferal, and unbear form I'm sittin at 24k unbuffed and 25% dodge. In my yellow sockets in my t7 I am putting def/stam gems or hit/stam gems. I am aware of the fact that defense is worthless, but it does add a little bit of dodge and I get the socket bonus, which is stamina. tbh I have no idea what I should be putting in any of my sockets. In my blue sockets I put straight stam and in red I put dodge/stam.

So what I'm asking is:
What should I put in those yellow sockets?
When should I stop stacking stamina and get more dodge/expertise?

Because currently I'm in my resto set and spec I didn't post my armory. If someone wants, I will list my gear if it will help them answer my question.

Edit: My current spec for feral is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRcczIo0Eczb)

Oiysters
02-19-2009, 08:34 AM
You should be stacking agility in every possible slot, a random def/stam gem or whatever to make your meta work or for a slot bonus is fine. Between all the stam on gear plus the "forced" stam enchants on legs and wrists, you will have all the health you need to tank any fight save Sarth 3D. Stacking stam to infinity gimps your threat, damage, armor and avoidance for no reason other than e-peen stroking.

You only need 30k health fully buffed to tank 25 man Naxx, and with Naxx gear you'll be beyond that unbuffed easily.

Your spec looks fine; you have all the basics and after that it's just preference and playstyle. Remember that bear specs are flexible and are easily customized to your raid and your role. For example if you have a DK or a good warrior IW is a waste because it gets overwritten by Thunderclap and Icy Touch, otherwise it's mandatory. Same with Feral Agression, it gets overwritten by warrior shouts. If you glyph Mangle, the Imp Mangle talent is a waste of points for tanking. Master Shapeshifter is far better for cats than for bears, for tanking Feral Aggression would be a better use of the points.

If you are OT and will be expected to go kitty a lot you would need a hybrid spec, which is quite different to what you posted. Let us know the role you expect to play and we can give you better information.

Oiysters
02-19-2009, 08:57 AM
No feral GROUP build should have this talent. Leave improved marking for healers or boomkins, that's the reason you see no ferals with it. If the raid doesn't have one, oh well. There are a few fights that are dps races, such as Archavon or Patchwerk, where having an IMotW might actually make the difference between a kill and a wipe for an undergeared group, but it'll never be worth the sacrifice it will cost you in other talents.

Disagree. I MT 10 mans where I am frequently the only druid. I spec into Imp MotW for those fights and sacrifice nothing for it. I respec for each raid based on makeup though.

Darksend
02-19-2009, 10:56 AM
If you glyph Mangle, the Imp Mangle talent is a waste of points for tanking. Master Shapeshifter is far better for cats than for bears, for tanking Feral Aggression would be a better use of the points.



This is very wrong

Imp mangle has nothing do to with keeping up the debuff, imp mangle is about mangling every 3rd global instead of every 4th

also, master shapeshifter is an amazing bear talent, and because of the removal of crushing blows imp demo shout has no were near the importance it had in BC. Also, i could be wrong, but in BC imp demo gave enough reduction to reduce a bosses AP to 0 even with reck on the target, now that is now longer possible even fully talented

Pwnsammich
02-19-2009, 02:55 PM
Okay when I respec feral I'll change out my stam gems for agil., thanks for that piece of info.
As feral, my brother and I will be carrying my guild's alts through 5 man heroics. I will also OT 10 Naxx for them and for pugs. I would like to MT reg and H vaults and I would like to do no drakes up OS. I plan on just healing for H naxx and ulduar until I get some better feral gear. My main goal is to tank and not to dps. I realize that ferals have to go cat dps for some fights when they're not needed, but I plan on using my build straight for tanking.
How much dodge should I have before I start stacking expertise if ever?

Xenbob
02-19-2009, 03:24 PM
Thank you for putting this together. I have been a casual player from the beginning but am now starting to gear towards raiding and enjoying the rest of the content Blizzard as put together.

In the last couple of raids/heroics i have done with pugs I have had multiple players ask why I am wearing DPS gear instead of tank gear and question my talent selection.

Gear (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thrall&n=Vacademuerte)
Talent Build (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/druid/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000000050323 21323220103531233003105120500300200000000000000000 )

If any druid tanks would not mind looking at my current build/talent selection and comment on what I can do to improve it i would be much appreciated.


Thanks in advance,

WastedSpace
02-19-2009, 04:32 PM
yeah some of the other builds I have seen I don't see why not putting into IMoTW over things like 5/5 in Furor which honestly in bear is not needed as most do not change in and out to get 10 rage when Enrage and one hit will give it back. I run 2 in IMoTW and 3 in Furor just to get up to Naturalist.

I also like the Master Shapeshifter for more damage and crit as I had not used it till I saw this thread. And the small amounts I use shred/lacerate those 2 points can make up for IMoTW as well. Also I bypasse Omen since in most raids having just one attack cancel rage or energy to me is not worth the skill point. Now for DPS it might be worth it, but taking I feel it is a waste.

Darksend
02-23-2009, 11:40 PM
Improved Mark of the Wild: Now also increases all of your total attributes by 1/2%.


IMP MARK IS NOW A MANDATORY TALENT FOR ALL FERAL DRUIDS

Consecrate
02-23-2009, 11:41 PM
*Will be! :>

The critting rake/rip looks nice too, wonder how many points it'll cost and where it is in the tree.

Darksend
02-23-2009, 11:43 PM
1

the new talent trees are up on MMO

Consecrate
02-23-2009, 11:44 PM
I think I love you.

Finkleroy
02-25-2009, 03:26 PM
I was thinking of dropping a couple points of Furor to pick up the new Imp MoTW. Particularly for cat. The bleed crit is a little tougher to find a point for. Maybe from Imp LoTP?

Darksend
02-25-2009, 03:35 PM
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=5032321303220103531203000135112035030120000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9614

tank



http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=5232020323220100531200303135112035030120000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9614


cat



Just as a note: I will not be updating the main post UNTIL THE PTR IS FINISHED AND ALL THE CHANGES ARE FINALIZED

Finkleroy
02-25-2009, 03:43 PM
Looks about right to me. For tanking, I'd add a build that swaps NS/MS for IW (throw the remaining two in FA?).

For kitty, I'd probably take the points out of FA and put them into IS and/or NI. I'm guessing the changes to savage roar are going to make ferocious bite even less attractive as a finisher, so it probably won't see much use. Never hurts to have a couple of more defensive talents. Dead kitties do no dps!

Darksend
02-25-2009, 04:24 PM
Looks about right to me. For tanking, I'd add a build that swaps NS/MS for IW (throw the remaining two in FA?).

For kitty, I'd probably take the points out of FA and put them into IS and/or NI. I'm guessing the changes to savage roar are going to make ferocious bite even less attractive as a finisher, so it probably won't see much use. Never hurts to have a couple of more defensive talents. Dead kitties do no dps!

by is i assume you mean SI

those 2 points are defiantly fillers, and NI is not a bad idea for cat actually

i have also decided that any guild that gets both MSS and IW is severally gimping yourself (see http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=5012321303220103531203030135012035030120000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9614 )

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=5032321303220103531203003135112035000100000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9614

this build has 2 free points, if you want take 1 out of KOTJ or IW but i always run with a frost DK so i save myself the points

Finkleroy
02-25-2009, 04:32 PM
I did mean SI, sorry. It's pretty marginal as kitty even for a one pointer, but not altogether useless in a Vortex-like situation.

On the last build you linked maybe you could take 1 point out of Imp LotP or Primal Fury to finish off IW. It would be painful, but Primal Fury is not quite as important to bears.

Darksend
02-25-2009, 04:55 PM
I did mean SI, sorry. It's pretty marginal as kitty even for a one pointer, but not altogether useless in a Vortex-like situation.

On the last build you linked maybe you could take 1 point out of Imp LotP or Primal Fury to finish off IW. It would be painful, but Primal Fury is not quite as important to bears.

Imp LOTP is amazing especially for progression raiding, i know i initially downrated it in my earlier posts, but i just checked my WWS from last night, the average heal from it was ~2K, granted most of it was overhealing, but it goes back to how many times have you lived with less than 100 health, this is probably the #1 must have talent for me now (after mangle of course)

primal fury is more about AOE and off tanking, if you were to take a point out of primal fury you would be better off tanking it out of feral instinct

just a note, the old swipe threat modifier + 3/3 feral instinct was less threat than a swipe now with 0/3 feral instinct

Bhorg
03-22-2009, 11:24 AM
I have been having a discussion with one of our guild bears about FF feral vs. Imp FF. Since the FFF is doing dmg and increasing threat the tank feels that generally the bear should be using FFF in the rotation.

I think that since the 3% hit and 3% crit (we do not run with a s. priest) is such a decent raid bonus, that the moonkin should generally handle the FF duties.

I checked thedailydruid.com, elitistjerks.com, and a few other druid websites for info on this, but have not found anything. Any advice would be really appreciated.

Darksend
03-22-2009, 12:13 PM
general statement: There is a bug, still not fixed even with 5 minute FF on PTR, that has been around since LK beta where if misery is on the target FF cannot be refreshed except by someone with imp FF unless the debuff completely falls off.

now to specificaly answer your question:

where are you getting 3% crit from? that 3% crit is only for the moonkin himself and it applies as long as ANY FF is on the target from any source.

as for the 3% hit, if you do not with a shadow priest then the bear should never FF


either way as i said in the patch FF becomes 5 minutes and needs to be applied tops twice a fight (although i need to test how much threat it does now that they trippled the ap coeffient)

DaBear
03-26-2009, 02:54 PM
I read all of this and it's a lot of good information.
I been a Bear, since I started my Druid. And Honestly have not done much reading on changes since WotLK came out.
I got to 80 been running Heroics and MT and OT 10man Naxx. With few problems...
The one thing I want to do is increase my TPS, I have had a Lok' or Mage occasionally pass me up, and I want to beat our Pally Tank out. lol He has been 80 a lot longer and has better gear.
I see in all the Builds 5/5 of Render and Tear, which seems to be a waste to me. Unless i'm just totaly off.
Here's my current build which I will be redoing after reading here, to get Master Shape Shifter. WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/druid/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000000055323 21303222103531203030131120350001000000000000000000 )

I know things will be changing again once we get the new patch, yet again. And as usually the only Druid in Heroics and Naxx I always kept IMOTW.

For AOE Tanking, my norm rotation is pretty much, SS bear, enrage, charge in, /swipe, demo roar, /swipe till all dead, with hitting Mangle when up inbetween all the swipes.

For Bosses, Charge, Mangle, FF, DemoRoar, swipe (for Snap&Snarl effect), lacerate to 5 with Mangle while it's up, then normally either swipe or lacerate. As I can't really see much of a TPS difference between them. with hitting Barkskin when it's up.
I rarely hit Maul as it was always a rage hog and slow. Though now it seems I will have to grab the Glyph and throw it in the aoe rotation.

Oh and one Trinket that was left off the list till you get the Armor ones is the one off the 2nd Boss in AG that gives you +111 Stam and a shield, Gibbons something. can't remember. ;)

I still carry Bear and Cat Gear, as when I do go Cat, I go with whatever will give me the Max AP and Crit. Since I shouldn't be getting hit. Do many of you? I keep hearing that Blizz wants us down to one set for both, but, I don't see it for certain pieces yet.
Worth Respecing now? or wait till the patch?

nefaisrien
03-29-2009, 10:57 AM
I've been doing quite a bit more tanking since my initial post and have gleaned some bits of knowledge.

First of all, maul is your friend, but it is a rage hog. For a while, I tried macroing it with swipe, mangle, and lacerate, but I found myself rage starved. I decided to downgrade it to just mangle. I am still using the BC badge idol for tanking. It procs a lot, and a bit of extra agility added to my next maul is nice for a bit more crit and maybe more rage for the next maul. Also, because I have the glyph, it's really good at getting a bit of lateral threat when tanking trash groups. As for trash, at the moment, I mostly swipe spam, toss in a mangle for the trinket proc, and keep an eye out for the mob with the lowest health, as that's probably the one that the pesky aggro whoring dpser has been focusing on and it might try to eat them.

For a while, I was playing with the idea of not getting 5/5 in rend and tear, but it's invaluable on bosses when you're spamming lacerate between mangle CDs. As for FFF, it appears at the moment to do about 1.5k or so threat, so I try to throw it into my rotation every time I need to refresh my roar. I have also been playing with combining enrage with barkskin to compensate for the increased susceptibility to damage as I am currently spec'd into 3/3 king of the jungle (one of the few points I allow myself for cat). A nice bit of extra damage, and as long as the burst damage from the boss/trash isn't too bad, barkskin should compensate.

Master shapeshifter, to me, seems like a waste of a feral druid's points. You get 30% mana reduction for shifting, and unless you're PvPing a lot, natural SS is basically useless. There are a few instance fights where I do power shift, but these are infrequent compared to the usefulness of other points. These 3 points and the 2 points for 4% extra damage or 4% extra crit could all be put into Naturalist for an extra 10% physical damage. I believe this is a much better build up to Omen of Clarity. By the way, if you want to reduce the cost of power shifting, you might be better off taking Primal Tenacity as it reduces the cost by ~17%/point, along with stunned damage and fear duration reduction as opposed to the 10%/point with Natural Shapeshifter.

Does anyone have a link to 3.1 talents other than MMO? I've never been able to get their site to load properly for the talent trees.

Fujiiro
03-30-2009, 06:48 AM
The one thing I want to do is increase my TPS, I have had a Lok' or Mage occasionally pass me up, and I want to beat our Pally Tank out. lol He has been 80 a lot longer and has better gear.
I see in all the Builds 5/5 of Render and Tear, which seems to be a waste to me. Unless i'm just totaly off.

If you're having threat issues, then not having R&T is the reason. I was also initially not happy with this talent, but then I respeced for it, just to try it out, and my damage and threat went through the roof as a result. I would never tank without R&T again.

If you're not using Maul, that's also severely hurting your TPS. Maul does massive damage now, criting for upwards of 5k for me, which is a MASSIVE amount of threat.

If you're having threat issues on AoE trash pulls, there's not much you can do about it. The way swipe works just naturally makes it harder for bears to get and hold aggro on multiple targets than it is for paladins or DKs. If you run with a tankadin, let him tank the trash. If not, just make sure your DPS knows to give you a few extra seconds to build threat. (I love it when a mage drops Blizzard on me, while the mobs are still on their way, then complains that I can't hold aggro.) If your DPS are noobs, let them die till they figure it out.

My own build is based on the fact that I want the shapeshifting cost reduction of Primal Tenacity for soloing, and I threw one point in Infected Wounds to help out a mage in my guild who uses Torment the Weak. But I've noticed it often isn't even up on bosses, presumably because it's getting overwritten by something else.

I don't think anything in 3.1 changes much, other than Improved MotW being a must have talent. (I spec'd with it now, just to try out using a build with those points spent. After trying 3 points in Furor I've become a life-time fan of 5/5 Furor and I'll never go back to that BS of having to re-shift for a furor proc ever again.)

My current build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRIzzAobE0z)

Also, here's a link to Wowhead's ptr druid talent tree: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=0)

WastedSpace
03-30-2009, 06:25 PM
Checking to see if I have Rend and Terror, but on bosses where I can keep rage I can avg 4.5k TPS generally with spikes in the 6k. The one Tankadin I ran with she is just a beast with avg 5-6k and spikes up to 8k.

But I did get pulled in a 25 naxx and gave the other two tanks a head start on the mobs just before Thaddius and Passed them both with aggro.


Maul is one of your key DPS now. Get the glyph and you can see crits over 7k over two targets, then if you crit with mangle at the same time that is 10k Damage real quick.

I can average 2k and if I time Berserk right should average 2.1-2.2k DPS on H CoS. I can also average over 2K DPS as OT in 10 or 25 OS till the last boss.

Only change I wish is that Growl would actually give the druid true aggro for 3-4 seconds. On Gluth I have issues when Growling getting aggro for 1 second then the other tank taking it right back.

klinkin3
03-30-2009, 08:09 PM
I have a few macro's i like to add to your excellent post. First, i am all for doing things the lazy way, so here are a few tanking macros that work very well for me.

Single target threat macro=
/castrandom Maul, Mangle - Bear, Lacerate

Multi-mob threat macro=
/castrandom Maul, Swipe

Ok so why did i do castrandom?? All other macros i created did not use all the abilities consistently. The single target macro always que's maul if you have the rage (normally I do), It will apply mangle right away, and only refresh it when it is about to expire or has just droped, and will spam lacerate for all your other GCD's. I still manually FF and Demo roar as you never know if you will have a warrior and/or SP with you in raid.

The key with multi-mob tanking is positioning. I normally spend the first few seconds strafing 90-180 degrees either way getting all the mobs in a cone in front of me, while spamming this macro.

Mouseover growl macro=
#show Growl
/cast [target=mouseover, harm, nodead] [] Growl

This is very easy to use, you don't have to change targets, just have your mouse curser over the target you want to growl/taunt and hit the macro, done, thats it.

I did try a Cat macro but it fluxuates far to much for anyone macro to be effective.

winnetou
03-31-2009, 12:46 AM
By the way, if you want to reduce the cost of power shifting, you might be better off taking Primal Tenacity as it reduces the cost by ~17%/point, along with stunned damage and fear duration reduction as opposed to the 10%/point with Natural Shapeshifter.

According to wowraid, build 9742 includes the following change:


Primal Tenacity (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=33957) - Now only reduces damage taken while stunned in cat form, instead of any form.

nefaisrien
03-31-2009, 10:38 AM
Source: klinkin3
Mouseover growl macro=
#show Growl
/cast [target=mouseover, harm, nodead] [] Growl

This is very easy to use, you don't have to change targets, just have your mouse curser over the target you want to growl/taunt and hit the macro, done, thats it.


There's a problem I see with using this macro. Unless your growl works better than mine, all it will do is make the mob look at you for a second, then it will go back to what it was doing before. If you don't actually hit it to generate more threat, all you've done is made yourself even on threat with whomever else is attacking it, but if they keep attacking it and you don't even do any white damage to it, the other person will have aggro on it as soon as your growl goes down. If you added a FFF to that (I have no clue how) to follow after the growl, this might be enough to actually make to mob come to you.

Wingardium
03-31-2009, 03:00 PM
Just wanted to say, great article. And "dual" is with an 'a' when it's a spec feature and "duel" when you want to fight someone.

I really wouldn't have said anything, but this is stickied.

Darksend
03-31-2009, 04:49 PM
on an average boss fight, maul can be anywhere from 60-75% of my total damage depending on crits, it is actually a pretty overpowered ability with RnT.

mouseover growl macro is something i use on both my warrior and druid, can't live without it, the trick however is to know on certain fights, such as sarth, to put the normal ability back on your bar. Anything with large hitboxes creates huge problems with this macro.

again, I am out of town until the 7th so i cannot properly answer this yet, but as i have said, I will be waiting until the patch actually goes live to update everything so there are no last minute changes after writing everything up

nefaisrien
04-07-2009, 12:00 PM
Only change I wish is that Growl would actually give the druid true aggro for 3-4 seconds. On Gluth I have issues when Growling getting aggro for 1 second then the other tank taking it right back.

On 10 man, I try to save my mangle CD for right after my growl. Also, I have mangle macroed with maul, so I catch up in threat and get a boost right after. Works great. (On 25 man, I tank the adds. We have 2 feral druids in our tanking core. Each of us takes a grate and just hold them all and don't bother kiting them at all. I put on my best stam gear and with raid buffs I'm just shy of 50k.)

WastedSpace
04-14-2009, 04:44 PM
Don't plan on doing that in 3.1. I may be over estimating, but I have a feeling the 33% armor reduction we will be seeing a decline in ablitiy to tank. I know in a patchwerk encounter I regularly see hits of 20k, and if my past experience before the armor increase I don't think we can take hatefuls anymore as I expect with less armor we will see fast hits of 20k - 30k and there isn't a healer out there who can cover that. Until the increase back to 66% I had to stack defense to survive heroics. Even with 38% dodge I was two shot sometimes by bosses with 36k HP. Put my defense gems back in and got it back to 450+ and tanked fine.

klinkin3
04-17-2009, 10:13 PM
So i had to make adjustments to my macro's with 3.1, they should now read

Single target threat macro=
/castrandom Maul, [Form:1]Mangle (Bear)(), Lacerate
/cast Maul

Multi-mob threat macro=
/cast Maul, [form:1] Swipe(Bear)()
/cast Maul

As far as the changes for 3.1, i am fairly dissappointed. Healers say i take a little more damage than usual, and a bit more spiky. Our cat dps increased but that is irrelevant to our ability to tank.

johnandre93
04-18-2009, 08:00 AM
How is druid tanking after 3.1.0?
I just tanked ramps on my 63 druid, and I felt I lost more hp, and I had less hp to lose.

I got 2k less armor at lvl 63, and 1.1k hp lost. (From 10k hp to 8.9k)

Fujiiro
04-20-2009, 10:11 AM
How is druid tanking after 3.1.0?
I just tanked ramps on my 63 druid, and I felt I lost more hp, and I had less hp to lose.

I got 2k less armor at lvl 63, and 1.1k hp lost. (From 10k hp to 8.9k)

Over the weekend I tanked a successful full clear of 25-man Naxx.

On that run I was MT for all bosses except:

Patchwerk: after our OT got one-shotted (resulting in a wipe), I was switched to OT to absorb hatefuls, and we downed him on the second attempt without any deaths.

KT: After a failed attempt were I was MT, our OT had to leave, forcing us to promote a DK pug to MT, so I took over the OT duties of picking up adds. No problems there.
Also, we successfully completed the achievement Momma Said Knock You Out, again, with me as MT.

So I happy to report that the rumors of Druid tanks no longer being viable in raids are greatly exaggerated. [:]The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-achievements.xml?r=Hellscream&cn=Fujiiro&gn=devnull) link to my armory showing the dates of these recent achievements.

Draks
04-20-2009, 02:54 PM
So i had to make adjustments to my macro's with 3.1, they should now read

Single target threat macro=
/castrandom Maul, [Form:1]Mangle (Bear)(), Lacerate
/cast Maul

Multi-mob threat macro=
/cast Maul, [form:1] Swipe(Bear)()
/cast Maul


I see the general idea behind these macros, but think that they could be cleaned up a bit to ensure they're doing exactly what you intended. First, the easy case - the multi-mob macro. I suggest the following:

/cast Swipe(Bear)()
/cast [nomod:shift] !Maul

The macro always casts bear swipe, and will toggle maul on (never off, that's what the '!' is for) unless the shift key is held down.

For the single target macro it's a bit more interesting. I'd prefer splitting it into two keys given the inadequacies of macros, but given what we've got to work with I think you'd be better off with:

/castsequence Swipe(Bear)(); Lacerate; Lacerate
/cast [nomod:shift] !Maul

You could even work in a reset=4 into that macro, but I've found that since that command operates off of the last button press it doesn't tend to work the way I'd like it to.

Hope those macro refinements help!

klinkin3
04-20-2009, 07:27 PM
Thx Draks those did help clean it up, and appears to still work. I did however add Mangle in the single target as it is good threat and helps with bonus damage and threat. Looks like =

/castsequence Mangle (Bear)(), Lacerate, Swipe (Bear)()
/cast [nomod:shift] !Maul

Few changes was u need to put a space between *Mangle or Swipe* and the *(Bear)()*, also you need to use a comma(,) instead of a semicolon ( ; ) it just didn't work if i didn't use the comma's. For me anyways. Don't know if those were typos or not, but this was my end product.

nefaisrien
04-20-2009, 11:08 PM
OMG, who loves our new swipe?! I certainly do. I'm not actually finding that I'm much squishier, but I've also respec'd to full survivability and regemmed for a bit more stam.

Seeing as people are talking about macros and such, I just use one, other than my OH SH*T one. [I don't know the exact syntax for the spell, I just shift-click it from my spell book]

#showtooltip
/cast Mangle(Bear)
/cast Maul

I simply use this macro for maul as well. If mangle is on CD, I get an error that says you can't do that yet, but who cares, it still winds up the maul. If it's not on CD, then I'm actually wanting to use mangle, so no problem. This macro also works if your in the GCD for a maul. It's nice and simple and gets the job done.

Man▀earpig
04-22-2009, 01:56 PM
I think its worth noting with the change to FF that you can opt out of the 3 points in imp mangle and put them elsewhere.

My rotation has changed to FF, Mangle, Swipe, Lacerate

Draks
04-22-2009, 09:24 PM
Even with the change to FFF I think 3 points in imp mangle is a good investment. I would prioritize mangle over FFF to get the following rotation:

Mangle, FFF, x, Mangle, x, FFF, Mangle, x, x

(with x being either lacerate or swipe)

Man▀earpig
04-23-2009, 10:24 AM
From my understanding of the threat values for FFF, They are pretty close in average threat.

FFF = (36 + 638 + damage done) * stance (my avg from a recent wws was 981)

Mangle = Damage done * stance (my avg from a recent wws was 1616)

Your argument is valid and your rotation would be slightly higher threat. The only concern i have is Mangle and FFF cooldowns coinciding every couple of rotations.

My choice was mainly based on needing the points for Feral Aggression.

Darksend
04-23-2009, 01:27 PM
Once you get the glyph from general vezaxx imp mangle is very nice, it has a TERRIBLE proc rate compared to idol of terror.

Man▀earpig
04-23-2009, 01:41 PM
Do you have any procwatch data on that idol? Be interested to know how good it is.

Darksend
04-23-2009, 01:43 PM
no, but i do have some links

Of Teeth and Claws: Should Improved Mangle be in a tanking spec? (http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2009/04/should-improved-mangle-be-in-tanking.html)

Omen of Clarity: Go for improved Mangle! (http://omen-of-clarity.blogspot.com/2009/04/go-for-improved-mangle.html)

Darksend
04-23-2009, 03:10 PM
Just did my own (VERY VERY) basic tests on Idol of the Corruptor - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45509) using target dummies.

Test 1: Mangle-Cat

-100% proc
-no internal

Test 2: Mangle-Bear

-Not 100% proc rate
-No internal

To test bear I just mangled and auto-attacked the target dummy. Using mangle every 4.5 seconds I did see it proc on consecutive mangles 4.5 seconds apart. This was not conclusive however. After seeing that it could proc on consecutive mangles I then hit berserk (facing in a way that ensured mangle only hit 1 dummy) and on the first 3 consecutive mangles under berserk it refreshed the duration. For the remainer of the berserk however I did not recieve any additional procs and the buff fell off. This is very disturbing.

Do not be alarmed, as we all know idol of terror did not have a 100% bear proc either and there was suffiecent downtime with it to ensure that even with only about a 60% proc the new idol will definatly be better. For one it is 2.4x as much agi, for two is is two seconds longer.


I will be updating the talents and the builds sometime in the next week ulduar is keeping me very busy

Jegger
04-23-2009, 07:18 PM
Why are you using Master Shapeshifter instead of King of the Jungle?
The King of the Jungle talent adds .833% damage Every 60 seconds while Master Shapeshifter only adds .8%.
Also, on fights that require tank rotation or fights where u dont get to hit the target 100% of the time (Malygos for example) you get more then .833% of damage per point of King of the Jungle, as you can time those enrages when it's actually your turn to tank. The fights will never last full minutes either. They usually last x.5 minutes on average, so the shorter the fight the more benefit you get from KoTJ.
Don't see a reason why you shouldnt get those IW either, because you wont always have a warrior/dk/paladin to do that slowing effect for you (if you are the one tanking in Thorim gauntlet).
Berserking is somewhat useless aswell, because you only get ~7 mangles at the cost of other abilities (10 gcds during the 15 second duration, where you'd get 3 of the mangles even without berserking and you also need to refresh that lacerate stack somewhere in the middle).
My build of choice would be:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRccuAobA0z:nz0cMm)
And that Challanging roar glyph is not a must have imo. I cant remember the last time i used the skill and it's not a propper taunt anyway.

Darksend
04-23-2009, 07:34 PM
YOU CANNOT use enrage against ulduar bosses. YOU CANNOT afford the armor reduction.

KOTJ is worthless for tanking.

Also, you can never get more than 8.333333333% increase from KOTJ, only less. you get 8.333 if you hit it immediatly every single time it comes off cooldown

Jegger
04-24-2009, 01:04 AM
Enrage only reduces damage mitigation from armor by ~4%, which is not that much of a loss and can be easily compensated by using Barkskin.
As for that .833% threat increase. It will get higher then that on a fight that lasts for 5:10 mins as you can use the enrage 6 times during it. And on fights with tank rotation you can easily disregard half of your threat during the time that you arent actually tanking the boss, so you can get up to 1.6% more threat per talent point if the rotation lasts for 30 secs per tank.

Man▀earpig
04-24-2009, 01:57 PM
Enrage only reduces damage mitigation from armor by ~4%, which is not that much of a loss and can be easily compensated by using Barkskin.
As for that .833% threat increase. It will get higher then that on a fight that lasts for 5:10 mins as you can use the enrage 6 times during it. And on fights with tank rotation you can easily disregard half of your threat during the time that you arent actually tanking the boss, so you can get up to 1.6% more threat per talent point if the rotation lasts for 30 secs per tank.


This is like saying its ok to enchant our tanking staff with berserker because its only 5%.

It is simply not a valid way to value tanking talents.

kedicik
05-15-2009, 05:26 AM
soz for being too lazy to read all the posts, maybe this has already been explained but, my question is, what is the point of taking master shapeshifter in the 25man raid build (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxMGsfrzceoc0uAo0Eczb)) where you can spend those points in feral instinct for a better swipe and improved lotp and maybe even for berserk ?

Darksend
05-15-2009, 09:23 AM
soz for being too lazy to read all the posts, maybe this has already been explained but, my question is, what is the point of taking master shapeshifter in the 25man raid build (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxMGsfrzceoc0uAo0Eczb)) where you can spend those points in feral instinct for a better swipe and improved lotp and maybe even for berserk ?


MSS is more threat than imp mangle. There are several posts around the blogging community right now with pages of math to support this.

That said that build is so out of date. It was made before lk even went live. I have had imp LOTP in every single build I have used since LK came out and will never not have it again.

I raid ulduar 8 days a week pushing hard modes so i have had very little time to update the OP. Look for an update sometime ni the next few weeks.

WastedSpace
05-18-2009, 05:17 PM
Why not have all of them. I use MSS, Imp Mangle, and KOTJ.

Anything that generates more threat is needed. Only problem is when you have that switching boss where Druid has no rage when time to taunt and we can't get them off the other because we can't hit hard enough to take aggro off them till we have aggro.

lucero
05-19-2009, 08:17 AM
I raid ulduar 8 days a week

lulz @ 8 days/week.






Yes, I get the joke.

kedicik
05-20-2009, 02:32 AM
from time to time i am tanking ulduar too (normal mostly) and threat has been a problem once or twice the most...

well anyway i was just curious if there was something i am missing with mss, thx for sparing time from the 25/8 raiding schedule ^^

Druid4life
05-20-2009, 02:06 PM
I agree with Darksend that rend and tear is not worth it not at all for tanking swipe is a better take maybe if i dual speced to two tank build i would take one but i dont think many druids are going to do that most will probably in embrace the role as the ultimate off tank this is my build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrdceRcczhz0Eckb:0znzmM)

jere
05-21-2009, 05:28 AM
MSS is more threat than imp mangle. There are several posts around the blogging community right now with pages of math to support this.


Out of curiosity, is MSS more threat than imp mangle overall or per talent point (or both)? It pretty much costs 5 points to get MSS and 3 for imp Mangle based on normal talent tree point allocation, so I was curious as to which comparison was done.

Rhoc
05-21-2009, 09:02 PM
i noticed in both your cat dps spec you took the 'last stand' talent and not berserk, berserk is mandatory for any dps druid, and last stand does 0 for your dps.

Darksend
05-21-2009, 11:55 PM
i noticed in both your cat dps spec you took the 'last stand' talent and not berserk, berserk is mandatory for any dps druid, and last stand does 0 for your dps.

that would be because of the addition of primal gore, those calculators were made pre 3.1 and as such when wowhead patched its calculators it shifted all the points (notice there is no Imp MOTW and still 5/5 furor)

I plan on updating the guide soon (i started working on it this week during maintenance only to have my web browser crash just as I finished and it did not save so I lost everything)

lucero
05-25-2009, 12:16 PM
Out of curiosity, is MSS more threat than imp mangle overall or per talent point (or both)? It pretty much costs 5 points to get MSS and 3 for imp Mangle based on normal talent tree point allocation, so I was curious as to which comparison was done.

No matter how the comparison was done I think post 3.1 the 3 needed to make ImpM worthwhile are better spent elsewhere. I feel like at lvl 70 there were far fewer working feral tank builds, and I really like the diversity available in builds now (particularly on the resto tree portion of the feral build). Heck I'm still trying to figure out the best one, but some things I just think aren't worth it since 3.1, ImpM being the prime example.

Darksend
05-25-2009, 02:06 PM
No matter how the comparison was done I think post 3.1 the 3 needed to make ImpM worthwhile are better spent elsewhere. I feel like at lvl 70 there were far fewer working feral tank builds, and I really like the diversity available in builds now (particularly on the resto tree portion of the feral build). Heck I'm still trying to figure out the best one, but some things I just think aren't worth it since 3.1, ImpM being the prime example.

Next time try to use correct talents. ImpM is a 2 point talent that increases all stats by 1% per point.

Genova
05-26-2009, 07:46 AM
i noticed in both your cat dps spec you took the 'last stand' talent and not berserk, berserk is mandatory for any dps druid, and last stand does 0 for your dps.

I was thinking along the same lines as this, but after dpsing on a few of the fights (Cat Lady comes to mind). Im going to add a point in SI I think, it seems like it would still be a good thing to have in a situation where aggro is Null, and something can effectively kill you before you get a heal. Also, if I do have to pop out and tank something, say adds on XT,Kolo,Freya or something I can at least survive long enough by switching to Bear, using SI until the other tank can pick stuff up, or a BR can be given to the dead tank.

For one talent point, this ability has its many uses in different "what if" scenarios

Darksend
05-26-2009, 03:42 PM
hard mode hodir and hard mode mimiron are 2 reasons to have SI (hard mode IC to a degree too)

lucero
06-01-2009, 08:26 AM
Next time try to use correct talents. ImpM is a 2 point talent that increases all stats by 1% per point.

Next time you try to correct someone, L2Acronym first. ImpM = Improved Mangle, Imp MotW = Improved Mark of the Wild, which is the two point restoration talent that increases all stats by 1/2%. The discussion that was currently taking place, and the direct quote that I was responding to were both in regards to ImpM. Isn't this your thread? I expect better.

FYI readers, Imp MotW should be considered mandatory. Another indicator that if I'm a decent tank at all I clearly wasn't talking about it here.

Pwnsammich
06-08-2009, 12:06 PM
Isn't this your thread? I expect better.

Pwnt

Darksend
06-16-2009, 07:35 AM
Updated for 3.1

Still working on fixing the builds and glyphs as wowhead was down until just a bit ago

Smoosh
06-16-2009, 08:40 AM
Note: Font size/style may change during this, Had to copy paste from word and it will not resize properly. (sorry).
Link to this build at bottom of page. (I suggest you do read this guide though).
After a long time of trial and error, reading various forums and tests, i am very confident that this is the best (at this time) feral druid dps talent tree. There are only about 5 talents that can be changed around depending on your raid or tank needs.

- Improved Mangle: Too many druids just spam mangle as much as they can until they have 5 combo points. Mangle should only be used once per rotation to keep the bleed effect up. Make sure you have the glyph of mangle, for the increased duration.

- Feral Agression: I have seen too many feral dps druids overlook this talent. It is mostly because they do not read the fine print. 5/5 it gives an extra 15% damage to ferocious bite. 5 combo points with savage roar, a bleed effect (for the extra 50% crit on ferocious bite) and maybe a trinket, and this finishing move can hit extremely hard.

- Shredding Attacks: For the rotation i use it is essential to be specced into as i use shred, rather than mangle to build up combo points.

- Survival of the Fittest: A 6% increase to attributes is obviously a great boost. Yet this can be specced away from if you are a little casual about your dps and would like to spec into a talent better for your personal rotation. I personally like the fact that i get the extra boost to my stats and its nice that if i do somehow get aggro (mostly from a 20k ferocious bite to a boss, or an aoe swipe crit of 7-8k on trash), that i cannot be critically hit.

- Infected wounds: Some of you may be thinking that this is strictly a pvp talent, now while the movement imparing effect obviously will not work on a raid boss, it still reduces the attack speed. (Think of it this way, a raid boss that parries a tanks attack has an increased haste on its next swing, having infected wounds up will almost negate this effect). Plus it's nice having a boss swinging 20% slower, especially in an enraged situation.
!!! I have read that there was a bug where if a dk was in the raid, it would negate this effect, would like some feedback on this!!!

- Feral Charge: Please avoid the urge to spec into this. While there are situations where this could possibly be useful - eg. start of boss encounter, leap in with a quick pounce as to not lose to much time before you can actually approach it. (I think Night Elf Druids can avoid this by activating the racial abilty - Shadowmeld. Run behind boss in cat form unstealthed use shadowmeld and pop pounce quickly - I play a horde druid so i don't know if this works or not. If not then just stop reading this sentence about here. However. If you play as a Night Elf you should be very ashamed of yourself).
This talent should be generally avoided.

-Naturalist: This talent is used in Feral trees more than it is used in the actual Restoration tree. I have seen Balance druids speccing into this. PLEASE READ IT PROPERLY. Increases the damage you deal with PHYSICAL ATTACKS. A huge waste of 5 talent points.
A must if you are a feral dps. 10% extra damage.

- Natural Shapeshifter/Master Shapeshifter: If you are a higher geared druid, you may aswell spec away from these 2 different talents and save 5 talent points. This is because Druid feral dps have an insane ammount of critical strike rating. I would suggest that if You can keep 50% crit without the talent, you may aswell do so. (Maybe into Improved MOTW for a happy raid and 2% extra to attributes).

That is about all i have to say for the talent tree side of things.

How about some Glyphs to match that shiny new talent tree?
I have found this is about the best combination of glyphs to use for feral dps.

Glyph of Mangle: Increases the duration of Mangle by 6 seconds.
(If you use my rotation listed further below, you should only be using Mangle once per rotation. So the glyph is a must to keep up the extra bleed effect damage, without actually having to spam Mangle).

Glyph of Shred: Each time you use shred, the duration of Rip is increased by 2 sec, up to a max of 6 sec.
This is pretty much win because the main attack to be using to build combo pts should be shred, after 1xMangle and 1xRake.

Glyph of Savage Roar: Your Savage Roar ability grants an additional 6% bonus damage done.

These 3 Major glyphs are best to use, don't bother with the Glyph of berserk. the extra 5 sec isnt too useful for pve. only get about 2 extra attacks in.

Minor glyphs, Nothing really special here. the only useful one is the rebirth one, the other 2 are pretty much up to you.

Now what use is a good talent tree if the rotation you are using is flawed?

- My personal rotation-

Trash: 1x Mangle For my Idol of Terror to proc, 65 agility for 10 sec.(Best in slot Idol until emblem idols/late ulduar idol, i use it for trash only).
Savage Roar/Trinket, spam Swipe. (Use Tiger's Fury soon as you're out of energy, or Berserk if you really wana go crazy).

Heroic Boss: Berserk, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo pts, Ferocious Bite. (No point using savage roar, by the time you have built up enough combo points again it's almost dead).

Raid Boss: (This consists of 3 rotations)
1. Pounce, Fairy fire, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo points, Savage Roar.
2. Same thing again but instead use Rip instead of Savage roar.
3 Again same thing but use ferocious bite as finishing move.
Then just keep up bleed effects and savage roar.

Using beserk depends on what stage of a fight you are in, if you want to use it with a bloodlust or use it to get your main bleed effects and Savage Roar up.

Also spam Tiger's Fury whenever you can.

You will notice i only use 1 Mangle, this is just to keep the extra bleed damage up. you can pull alot more dps if you spam shred instead of mangle. (Hence why the talent tree doesn't have improved mangle, and its specced into shredding attacks).

Now This Link to this "Best Talent tree" you have all scrolled straight past all of this for. (Hope this link works, if it doesn't please let me know asap and i'll try change it).

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000553200032322000053 120033310511005503012000000000000000000)

Darksend
06-16-2009, 09:03 AM
/sigh


- Improved Mangle: Too many druids just spam mangle as much as they can until they have 5 combo points. Mangle should only be used once per rotation to keep the bleed effect up. Make sure you have the glyph of mangle, for the increased duration.
WHAT!? I do not know any feral druids who just spam mangle as cat. Also on most fights glyph of mangle is not needed even if you are doing your own mangle, but it certainly helps.

- Feral Agression: I have seen too many feral dps druids overlook this talent. It is mostly because they do not read the fine print. 5/5 it gives an extra 15% damage to ferocious bite. 5 combo points with savage roar, a bleed effect (for the extra 50% crit on ferocious bite) and maybe a trinket, and this finishing move can hit extremely hard.
At most, ferocious bite is 6-7% of your DPS. 15% increase is only 1% of your total DPS. 5 talent points for a 1% dps increase when there is so much other better stuff to take. No thanks.

Also we do read the fine print, it's not that fine. But maybe you should read the fine print. Rend and Tear is only 25% crit on FB now.

- Survival of the Fittest: Yet this can be specced away from if you are a little casual about your dps and would like to spec into a talent better for your personal rotation.
No, it can't be skipped.

- Infected wounds: Some of you may be thinking that this is strictly a pvp talent, now while the movement imparing effect obviously will not work on a raid boss, it still reduces the attack speed. (Think of it this way, a raid boss that parries a tanks attack has an increased haste on its next swing, having infected wounds up will almost negate this effect). Plus it's nice having a boss swinging 20% slower, especially in an enraged situation.
!!! I have read that there was a bug where if a dk was in the raid, it would negate this effect, would like some feedback on this!!!
This clearly shows you have absolutely no concept of game mechanics. Improved Thunderclap, Judgement of the Just, Improved Icy Touch, and IW all reduce the bosses attack speed by 20% and they do not stack.

- Feral Charge: Please avoid the urge to spec into this. While there are situations where this could possibly be useful - eg. start of boss encounter, leap in with a quick pounce as to not lose to much time before you can actually approach it. (I think Night Elf Druids can avoid this by activating the racial abilty - Shadowmeld. Run behind boss in cat form unstealthed use shadowmeld and pop pounce quickly - I play a horde druid so i don't know if this works or not. If not then just stop reading this sentence about here. However. If you play as a Night Elf you should be very ashamed of yourself).
This talent should be generally avoided.
WHAT?! Seriously dude. Stop writing.

- Natural Shapeshifter/Master Shapeshifter: If you are a higher geared druid, you may aswell spec away from these 2 different talents and save 5 talent points. This is because Druid feral dps have an insane ammount of critical strike rating. I would suggest that if You can keep 50% crit without the talent, you may aswell do so. (Maybe into Improved MOTW for a happy raid and 2% extra to attributes).
Considering you should have Imp MOTW no matter what...... terrible advice a cat has no where else to spend these points.

Glyph of Savage Roar: Your Savage Roar ability grants an additional 6% bonus damage done.
Do you read patch notes? this was nerfed to 3% before it even went live


Raid Boss: (This consists of 3 rotations)
1. Pounce, Fairy fire, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo points, Savage Roar.
2. Same thing again but instead use Rip instead of Savage roar.
3 Again same thing but use ferocious bite as finishing move.
Then just keep up bleed effects and savage roar.


NEVER.... EVER... Use pounce.

1) most bosses pull you out of stealth as soon as they enter combat
2) even if they don't it is more efficient to mangle out of stealth than pounce.

5/5/5 is good if you have a lot of ArP and the shred idol. If you are using the rip idol and low on ArP do not use FB except during berserk.

lucero
06-16-2009, 12:19 PM
- Improved Mangle: Too many druids just spam mangle as much as they can until they have 5 combo points. Mangle should only be used once per rotation to keep the bleed effect up. Make sure you have the glyph of mangle, for the increased duration.


/sigh


WHAT!? I do not know any feral druids who just spam mangle as cat. Also on most fights glyph of mangle is not needed even if you are doing your own mangle, but it certainly helps.

I actually know tons of feral druids that do this. I've been arguing against it all along. Not everyone is smart.



- Feral Agression: I have seen too many feral dps druids overlook this talent. It is mostly because they do not read the fine print. 5/5 it gives an extra 15% damage to ferocious bite. 5 combo points with savage roar, a bleed effect (for the extra 50% crit on ferocious bite) and maybe a trinket, and this finishing move can hit extremely hard.


At most, ferocious bite is 6-7% of your DPS. 15% increase is only 1% of your total DPS. 5 talent points for a 1% dps increase when there is so much other better stuff to take. No thanks.
Eh, if I ever got to go cat spec I would probably take this talent. Ferocious bite is a large part of my rotation, particularly with shred reapplying/prolonging my rip from glyph. Much more finishers available for ferocious bite this way. However, I'm one of two or three main tanks in my guild so I never do get to go cat spec. =(



- Shredding Attacks: For the rotation i use it is essential to be specced into as i use shred, rather than mangle to build up combo points.
Yeah, I've seen cats pass this up and I don't follow. I shred way too much to pass this talent up. I even take it in my hybrid bear spec.



- Survival of the Fittest: A 6% increase to attributes is obviously a great boost. Yet this can be specced away from if you are a little casual about your dps and would like to spec into a talent better for your personal rotation.



No, it can't be skipped.
He's got you there. You absolutely can't skip this talent as any kind of feral.



- Infected wounds: Some of you may be thinking that this is strictly a pvp talent


This clearly shows you have absolutely no concept of game mechanics. Improved Thunderclap, Judgement of the Just, Improved Icy Touch, and IW all reduce the bosses attack speed by 20% and they do not stack.

It would be folly to think it is a strictly pvp talent. That being said, I run with a warrior. My IW would always be overwritten so I don't take it. As Dark pointed out, all of the above also overwrite it, so unless you are on some server where, but by the grace of God, no one decided to roll Death Knight (if that is the case please let me know so I can transfer there ASAP), then you probably don't need IW.



- Feral Charge: Please avoid the urge to spec into this. While there are situations where this could possibly be useful - eg. start of boss encounter, leap in with a quick pounce as to not lose to much time before you can actually approach it.
This talent should be generally avoided.



WHAT?! Seriously dude. Stop writing.

While I agree it isn't strictly required, there are TONS of situations where it helps. For instance, Anub'Rhekan impales (or simply running back to boss after killing crypt guard), Malygos phase 2 knockbacks, XT-02 re-entries after gravity bomb, etc., etc. Any of these situations if your feral charge is off cooldown you are back in the fight sooner and therefore cranking out more dmg than otherwise possible. In some situations it can save you from taking fall damage a la the ole bear bomb, therefore relieving some stress on healers.



- Natural Shapeshifter/Master Shapeshifter: If you are a higher geared druid, you may aswell spec away from these 2 different talents and save 5 talent points. This is because Druid feral dps have an insane ammount of critical strike rating. I would suggest that if You can keep 50% crit without the talent, you may aswell do so. (Maybe into Improved MOTW for a happy raid and 2% extra to attributes).



Considering you should have Imp MOTW no matter what...... terrible advice a cat has no where else to spend these points.

Yeah, Imp MotW is required. Dark, I see you're improving with those acronyms!



- My personal rotation-

Heroic Boss: Berserk, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo pts, Ferocious Bite. (No point using savage roar, by the time you have built up enough combo points again it's almost dead).

Why not apply savage roar on the second or third combo point then? The combo points increase its duration, not its effectiveness. That's what I do in a situation like this, and for a tank/hybrid spec (Despite usually being the better geared tank, I make myself OT so I can kitty when not tanking-increasing the overall raid dps), gemmed, enchanted and glyphed to tank, I still out-dps many in raids and heroics (when I do get to go cat, which is admittedly rare).



Raid Boss: (This consists of 3 rotations)
1. Pounce, Fairy fire, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo points, Savage Roar.
2. Same thing again but instead use Rip instead of Savage roar.
3 Again same thing but use ferocious bite as finishing move.
Then just keep up bleed effects and savage roar.

Also spam Tiger's Fury whenever you can.




NEVER.... EVER... Use pounce.


ONLY.... EVER... Use pounce...when PVPing. /fixt

Also, just to add something more to the conversation than Darksend's stereotypical, overly aggressive criticisms of Smoosh's post...



1) most bosses pull you out of stealth as soon as they enter combat
2) even if they don't it is more efficient to mangle out of stealth than pounce.


1) If I'm opening in stealth, I open with Ravage. It does a shit ton more dmg than mangle (385% +514 at rank 5 compared to 160% +761 at Rank 5 [which is the highest rank for both]), usually critting for between 8-9k with my tank build. Opening with mangle from stealth seems about as fail as opening with pounce. Let's just say your base attack was 1000 dmg for ease of mathematics, because I hate math. That would be 4364 dmg from ravage and 2361 from mangle. Ravage should be your stealth opener in nearly every circumstance. The only time I don't open with it is if the tank moves the boss around and I would be better to get my rotation going than to spend the time to try to readjust to get behind the boss.

2) Aside from that my rotation is very close to Smooth's. I would note that aside from just spamming tiger's fury whenever you can, I find it best to pop it right after savage roar so a) I'm getting the increased dmg done from TF on top of SR and b) it restores a big ole chunk of my energy so I can get my bleeds up/refreshed.

3) HOWEVER, What I'm really interested in discussing, and would love some input on is related to this:



5/5/5 is good if you have a lot of ArP and the shred idol. If you are using the rip idol and low on ArP do not use FB except during berserk.

First of all, I have no idea what Darksend is talking about with the 5/5/5. I would love some clarification on that. I'm missing something.

That aside, the rest of the statement raises a question. The answer to this question is probably the best thing that could come of this debate that has otherwise consisted of a well-intentioned, yet less-informed druid being the source of yet another Darksend e-peen flexfest.

It relates to something that I actually tried manually for a while, which is obviously not going to work. Idols, as we all ought to know, are considered our "ranged" slot and are therefore rightfully considered a weapon. They can be changed during combat. I have tried to manually swap between my shred idol and my rip idol prior to applying rip and back to shred after rip is up. The benefits of this are abundantly clear.

My question is....who out there wants to write the frigging macro that binds an idol swap to shred and rip for the rest of us out here who lack the coding skills?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

If you are up to the task, the idols that need binded are Idol of the Ravenous Beast macroed to equip prior to shredding and Idol of Worship macroed to equip prior to ripping. You will win the favor of feral druids the world over. BEGIN!

Oh, also...here's a friggin' cat spec if ever I saw one.

It's missing absolutely nothing. ImpM, as I've stated eslewhere, is a really bad talent to take. The only situation I can think of where mangle spamming is appropriate is on Thaddius if you get stuck with the same charge as the tank. Oh, that and soloing during dailies or whatever.

The only thing I'm not clear on is Protector of the Pack. Like I said, I never get to go cat spec, so I'm not sure, but if I'm reading the tooltip correctly the AP increase is only in bear form, which means I was right to leave it out. If it actually applies the AP in cat as well you'd have to take it and drop three points somewhere.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000553200032322010053 120030310511205503012000000000000000000)


ADDENDUM: Yeah, we could all just build an armor set with each idol, bind each to a key, and swap them that way, but I have enough key binds. So, please...still write those macros!!!

edited to add the above addendum and the bit about Smoosh having good intentions because he did.

Genova
06-16-2009, 03:59 PM
First of all, I have no idea what Darksend is talking about with the 5/5/5. I would love some clarification on that. I'm missing something.



He is talking about building to 5 combo points I would assume. The debate on whether to build to 5 before using a finisher has been going on for all eternity.

I will ask though, I still build to 4 out of habit, but I am a

Mangle
Rake
Shred (x2 if not at 4CP)
SR
Tiger
Shred
Rake
Rip(or shred again for 4CP)
Mangle
Shred
Rake(if not at 4 CP shred)
Refresh SR if it is below 8 seconds, if above 8 seconds... FB


Repeat

This has worked out well for me, its not a set rotation but if I had to write it down.. it'd be something like that since its more of a priority than anything else. Though I still want to know if going to 5 is or when would it be better? If it is I have some old habits to break.

Darksend
06-16-2009, 04:08 PM
While I agree it isn't strictly required, there are TONS of situations where it helps. For instance, Anub'Rhekan impales (or simply running back to boss after killing crypt guard), Malygos phase 2 knockbacks, XT-02 re-entries after gravity bomb, etc., etc. Any of these situations if your feral charge is off cooldown you are back in the fight sooner and therefore cranking out more dmg than otherwise possible. In some situations it can save you from taking fall damage a la the ole bear bomb, therefore relieving some stress on healers.

I like how you conveniently edited out the part where he talks about shadowmeld. I don't even know if that was English.


1) If I'm opening in stealth, I open with Ravage. It does a shit ton more dmg than mangle (385% +514 at rank 5 compared to 160% +761 at Rank 5 [which is the highest rank for both]), usually critting for between 8-9k with my tank build. Opening with mangle from stealth seems about as fail as opening with pounce. Let's just say your base attack was 1000 dmg for ease of mathematics, because I hate math. That would be 4364 dmg from ravage and 2361 from mangle. Ravage should be your stealth opener in nearly every circumstance. The only time I don't open with it is if the tank moves the boss around and I would be better to get my rotation going than to spend the time to try to readjust to get behind the boss.

Except you forget one thing:

34 energy vs 60 energy.

Now 5/5/5 is 5 sr 5 rip 5 bite. Using this, your rip will ALWAYS fall off.

as for idol swapping: DO NOT. It resets your white swing timer. The loss of white dps is not worth the gain.

Urrick
06-17-2009, 06:00 AM
I know that a hybrid bear/cat spec (primarily bear in groups, cat or tree in raids) isn't the best in anyway but I would like to have the best glyphs I can for what I normally do. Currently running Savage Roar, Maul, Berserk. SR for when I cat, Maul for tanking, and Berserk for both. Any better choices?

I really wish they had try spec as I could then have a normal bear spec and cat spec, but as of now I'm more helpful/effective with bearcat/tree.

Darksend
06-17-2009, 06:30 AM
SR, SI, frenzied regen.

Urrick
06-17-2009, 07:00 AM
Thanks!

lucero
06-25-2009, 04:24 PM
I like how you conveniently edited out the part where he talks about shadowmeld. I don't even know if that was English.

lol b/c it's true.




Except you forget one thing:

34 energy vs 60 energy.

As we've both agreed before, cat druids probably shouldn't have ImpM. So, unless you are a bear who specced 3 into ImpM (I don't even take it in bear), Mangle costs 40 energy. This means Ravage only costs 1/3 more than Mangle, but does nearly double the damage. Again, Ravage is the better opener from stealth. Of course, anyone can play their toon however they want, but that's my two cents.




Now 5/5/5 is 5 sr 5 rip 5 bite. Using this, your rip will ALWAYS fall off.

Thanks for the clarification. This is something I admittedly haven't toyed with much, but I recently went and beat on a heroic target dummy for close to thirty minutes, trying different rotations where I only built to four combo points for various finishers. In every instance my dps dropped by about 100. Obviously this could just be because I was still getting used to new rotations. I'd also like to note that I don't always build to five on each as it is, I basically base my rotation on a case by case basis, but on the target dummy the other day, my dps was definitely higher doing a 5/5/5 rotation.

Addendum: Anyone reading this: please don't take that as an endorsement of a 5/5/5 rotation. I initially only said that my rotation was close to Smoosh's. I'm not endorsing it, I'm only saying something close to it is what seems to work best for me. What I would endorse is trying different rotations and find what works best for you!

Mammoth
06-26-2009, 08:31 AM
I think the mistake being made is strictly comparing opening with Ravage to opening with Mangle. Since Ravage does not add the bleed debuff you have to compare opening with Ravage followed by Mangle to opening with Mangle. The former does a fair bit of initial damage but depletes your energy and delays the start of opening rotation. The latter does less initial damage but allows you to start right in on your rotation.

If you don't need to use Mangle because you have a Mangle-bot then you have to compare opening with Ravage to opening with Shred.

anamiac
07-01-2009, 02:49 PM
Hey, I have a couple questions. I'm a Tauren druid on Lightninghoof, this is my tanking build:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Lightninghoof&cn=Ronada&gn=Visceral)

1. After reading through this thread, I'm thinking of dropping Infected Wounds (not sure what I'd put them into instead though). If a boss is immune to movement impairing effects, then are they immune to infected wounds? Because I don't seem to see alot of bosses with the infected wounds debuff on them, but that could also be because of the warriors/dk's in my raid.

2. With my tanking talents, I have 3/3 Imp. Mangle and 0/2 shredding attacks. It's therefore, much faster for me to get 5/5 combo points by using mangle than shred (34 energy vs 60). When I'm tanking XT Deconstructor and he goes into the heart phase, I go into cat, mangle, savage roar, mangle till I get 5 combo points, then rip. If I waited until I had 5 combo points from shred then the heart phase would be half over before I could rip, and I wouldn't get the full duration on my rip. Anyway, I'm wondering if you think I'm still losing dps in this situation (and if so, is it enough to justify moving around to the other side of the boss and back?).

3. It seems like, in all this discussion, little has been brought up to talk about savage defense, and I'd like to talk about it more. First off, with primal gore, can it proc off of my lacerate crits? Does Rawr take savage defense into account?

4. I need a way to tell whether an item that drops is better than what I'm currently wearing(ie, Furnace stone vs Defender's code). While I think everyone would agree that both agility, stamina, and armor are all very important... which one should one stack/gem for, and when? Please take savage defense into account here as well. I'm not going to be happy with a quick answer that just says that one is better than the other, explain why, and I'd like to know how much agility is worth 1 pt of stamina. Discuss how different encounters would encourage different routes. Also, if we get a certain amount of one stat, does going for more of that stat then become more valuable or less compared to others? I've tried to get my answers on Rawr, but I just haven't used it enough to know when it's reliable, and when it isn't.

Adariana
07-08-2009, 12:58 AM
Okay I have to jump in on the feral DPS discussion my talent build is

here (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Bronzebeard&n=Adariana&group=2)

Please be advised that my armory hasnt been updated in over a week I don't know why but the gear/enchants are not accurate and I don't believe my talents changed at all but my other spec got switched to tanking because I never healed and kept having to tank with a non optimal tank spec.

Here are my thoughts about talents that are in question

Feral Swiftness/Feral Aggression
I know this one is often skipped by more points into Feral Aggression but I tend to only ever use Ferocious bite if I go on an insane crit spree and have a rediculous number of combo points or if Berserk is active.

((Be advised these types of crit sprees where you have this many extra combo points are usually where you need to hit Cower due to your Threat going through the roof soo I usually wind up not using a Ferocious Bite even if it's available in these situations as a dead kitty does considerably less DPS))

Secondly this talent has saved my ass more often than I care to count. I know we all like to be idealistic and think you won't need it but -everyone- makes mistakes. You find yourself in the wrong place and being able to get to the right place faster helps.

Sometimes even small changes in distance that don't require a dash, that fraction of a second between getting back in front of Auriaya before a blast etc. Flame away but these points would go into Feral Aggression and I don't really see the need for it.

Survival Instincts

I didn't have this talent for the longest time but when it dawned on me that I'm not crittable in my DPS spec because of Survival of the Fittest I realized that I was able to tank in emergencies. Buy a little bit of time for a tank to get a battle rez or even hold a boss for an extended time when a tank dies. Basically shit happens even on bosses that you have on farm and being able to help save it is worth losing a talent point that doesn't get used often.

Feral Charge

This one I've always had because it allows for quick repositioning, yes it costs energy I'm willing to deal with that. On fights that require a lot of movement the relatively shorter cooldown on this makes it great for moving back and forth between positions when dash is on cooldown. Plus the fact that it generates close to no threat.

Improved Mangle/Shredding Attacks/Omen of Clarity/Ferocity

When talking feral DPS any talent that allows you to use less energy in your rotation, and thus allows you to get more abilities in is mandatory. These get grouped together because they serve the same purpose. Expend less energy, use more attacks, do more dps. 6 energy doesnt seem like a lot for mangle but on a long fight think of how many extra shreds that adds up to.

Survival of the Fittest/Improved Mark of the Wild

Granted these scale according to gear level, the better geared you are the more of a benefit you'll garner from them, but these are still valuable talents that improving the stats on everything. That new weapon? Add 6% agility. It adds up to quite a lot of crit rating, and attack power and should never be skipped.

Master Shapeshifter

Okay this requires 3 points into Natural Shapeshifter but where else are you going to put the points?

-First refer to above about Feral Swiftness to see my thoughts on Feral Aggression.
-Infected wounds is useless in PvE, it gets overriden constantly.
-Primal Tenacity is useless since you can't shapeshift out of cat and back in to refresh your energy anymore.
-Nuturing Instincts? No.
-Tanking talents eh.
-Genesis doesn't work on bleeds anymore.

And besides 4% crit is nothing to sneeze at anyway.

Basically certain things like Feral Aggression can give you a slight increase in overall DPS on a dummy during simulations but in a realtime raid it's useless. The situation is fluid you don't always get that perfect rotation, you hit a wrong key so you miss an opportunity to use a bite. You accidentally use a clearcast on a rake because it procced right when you were hitting the button. The extra swipe damage helps for an oh shit aoe moment. Pounce and speed increases help you reduce downtime inbetween targets in a movement heavy encounter. They're all little things but they add up to a lot in a raid situation where many times it's the overlooked details that can make a big difference.

Side Note on Ferocious Bite and Feral Aggression

There is in theory another rotation which allows you to incorporate a 5 combo point Bite into your regular rotation which would make 5/5 Feral Aggression builds more viable, but using it reliably in a raid situation is not often realistic in my experience due to previous statements about fluidity of raids.

The premise is as follows:

1)2 point savage roar
2)5 point rip
3)5 point savage roar
4)5 point rip
5)5 point bite

6)2 point roar
7)5 point rip
8)5 point savage roar
9)5 point rip
10)5 point bite
-repeat bolded section

The theory this rotation works off of is that the shred glyph extends the time on rip. And the long duration on savage roar especially with 4 set tier 8 bonus often results in wasted time on your savage roar that so that it is refreshed at a high time left. Mixing in a bite followed by a short duration roar allows for a more effective usage of abilities with less redundancy. IE not using 25 energy on a roar when there are still 15+ seconds left.

The key to this is the realization that a 2 point roar or a 3 point roar with the extra point from crits invariably mixed in is long enough to refresh the rip and then put up a new full roar in most situations.

Adariana
07-08-2009, 01:21 AM
Seperate reply for tanking questions.


1. After reading through this thread, I'm thinking of dropping Infected Wounds (not sure what I'd put them into instead though). If a boss is immune to movement impairing effects, then are they immune to infected wounds? Because I don't seem to see alot of bosses with the infected wounds debuff on them, but that could also be because of the warriors/dk's in my raid.

The problem with Infected wounds is assuming that the warriors and DK's dont have maxed out Icy Touch and Thunderclap that will override a fully stacked Infected Wounds. In order for Infected wounds to stack to full you need to tell them that they're not allowed to use Icy Touch until you have Infected Wounds stack and this frankly just won't happen.

The way the game treats abilities like Infected Wounds that have two affects like this that has a movement and attack speed debuff is each of the debuffs hit seperately. If you are to hit a boss thats immune to movement debuffs with scrolling combat text you will see "Immune" but if it is immune to both you will see "Immune [2 hits]."

Basically if it's immune to movement impairment debuffs then you can still slow it's attack speed with this talent but overall it's a waste of talent points as it will get overriden constantly.


2. With my tanking talents, I have 3/3 Imp. Mangle and 0/2 shredding attacks. It's therefore, much faster for me to get 5/5 combo points by using mangle than shred (34 energy vs 60). When I'm tanking XT Deconstructor and he goes into the heart phase, I go into cat, mangle, savage roar, mangle till I get 5 combo points, then rip. If I waited until I had 5 combo points from shred then the heart phase would be half over before I could rip, and I wouldn't get the full duration on my rip. Anyway, I'm wondering if you think I'm still losing dps in this situation (and if so, is it enough to justify moving around to the other side of the boss and back?).

Okay as a tank shredding attacks isn't really that big of a deal, rage is not a problem for a bear. If you're low on rage don't hit maul next autoattack and you just gained a lot of it back especially if you critical. But the downside is your shred costs a lot to use.

The basic answer is during the first half to even 75% of the heart phase it is safe to be behind XT as he's immobile. You should still use shred try not to button mash because if you get a clearcast it is MUCH better spent on a shred than a mangle. So you're safe to move around the boss and use clearcasts on shreds but shred costs way too much energy without shredding attacks to use without a clearcast.


3. It seems like, in all this discussion, little has been brought up to talk about savage defense, and I'd like to talk about it more. First off, with primal gore, can it proc off of my lacerate crits? Does Rawr take savage defense into account?

Savage Defense is great, and I like the way it's set up by scaling on your attack power, this adds up to basically free mitigation in the form of minibubbles. Almost like a bear's block ability but with your crit rating from agility you'll have this absorbing some damage from almost every incoming hit unless the boss hits exceedingly fast.

From my experience and the fact that the bear does an animation when Savage Defense procs ((which is going to be removed in 3.2)) I would say that yes it can proc on lacerate crits. It seems to be any crit sets it off without any cooldown.


4. I need a way to tell whether an item that drops is better than what I'm currently wearing(ie, Furnace stone vs Defender's code). While I think everyone would agree that both agility, stamina, and armor are all very important... which one should one stack/gem for, and when? Please take savage defense into account here as well. I'm not going to be happy with a quick answer that just says that one is better than the other, explain why, and I'd like to know how much agility is worth 1 pt of stamina. Discuss how different encounters would encourage different routes. Also, if we get a certain amount of one stat, does going for more of that stat then become more valuable or less compared to others? I've tried to get my answers on Rawr, but I just haven't used it enough to know when it's reliable, and when it isn't.
I dont pretend to know the math well enough to answer this one but there are a number of places where you can find different gear rating scales ie agility = X points, stamina = Y, crit = Z. But these all rate them differently so it comes down to their own interpretation or their own math and who do you trust with the priority.

Often overlooked in the stat discussion for a feral tank are other secondary stats, given two items with similar agility and stamina the difference can be if it has crit/haste/hit/expertise/attack power.

If you watch tankspot videos you'll see that Ciderhelm rarely misses or gets parried/dodged, and if you look at his armory you'll see he actually has some expertise gemmed to put him over the cap. A lot of people fail to realize that a miss/dodge/parry is 0 threat and wasted rage/mana/runes

Lachesis
08-09-2009, 02:59 PM
The specs posted in this guide are hideous, and here's why:

First off, berserk. While it's a critical dps talent, it's usefulness in tanking should not be overlooked. Having mangle hit three targets at once is great for multi-mob tanking (Think: freya trash), Having its cooldown removed is great for a threat burst, and being able to break a fear is a pretty nice bonus. I remember an auriaya kill where she was at 10%, our dps warrior lagged out in a void zone and I used berserk to break her fear and interrupt her cast, preventing a wipe. For that fight, we put the tremor totem in the healer group.

Second, imp demo roar is critical for tanking heavy-hitting bosses, like General Vezax. I rotate personal cooldowns in conjunction with paladin Bubble/HoS to tank through surges (we have enough paladins in our guild that having five in a raid is easy to do), and without imp demo roar, my survivability would go down a lot on that fight. Others I can think of are thorim when his stacks start getting high, Sarth+3 while shadron and vesperon are both active (he doesn't hit that hard to begin with, but with flame breath leaving a tank at 10-20% health, a quick melee swing from sarth could be deadly) Phase three Yogg if you're the fresh guardian tank, and I'm sure there's others as well.
edit: steelbreaker.

Third, shredding attacks is 100% a dps talent, and brutal impact is 100% pvp. If your mages can't counterspell, your rogues can't kick, DKs can't mind freeze, etc, there's something wrong.

Fourth, Imp. MotW is a free 2% stat increase.

Fifth, intensity is decent, but there are much better ways to spend those points, especially considering the 3.2 changes to enrage.

Sixth, while I agree that primal gore is a key talent, I find it a lot more useful for threat than proccing SD. I have a 49% crit chance raid buffed, so I tend to have a pretty high uptime on SD to begin with. I can see, however, that it would be very useful for starting ferals- but then, their AP isn't very high, so SD wouldn't absorb much to begin with.

I'm sure I could pick apart more talents, but those are the biggest things I see that should be fixed with the specs listed in this guide. Here is the spec I use for tanking, to compare:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZiGGscrzceRcczAkbA0z)

We don't have any prot warriors in the guild, so I have infected wounds for the swing speed debuff. If I didn't need it, I would probably put two points in shredding attacks and one in KotJ to improve my dps on phase two mimiron.



Moving on to your dps builds, again, you completely missed berserk and imp motw, and Survival instincts is almost useless in a pve cat build, as you've got healthstones, potions, and the ability to heal yourself.

The current cookie-cutter build, which I've found very effective, is as follows:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZEMMcfrz0eR0huAkbAczb)



As for as glyphs go, you're spot on about the dps glyphs, and I would argue with SI being better than Maul, but that's more a matter of personal preference. I already reach 60k HP with SI up in a 25-man setting, I don't think the extra health is going to provide that much more of a benifit.


One final thing- a macro suggestion:
/cast [stance:1] !Dire Bear Form
/cast [stance:2] !Aquatic Form
/cast [stance:3] !Cat Form
/cast [Stance:4] !Travel Form


This macro will shift you out of, and back into, whatever form you're using. It's the infamous "Powershifting" macro- clears any movement speed debuff, snare, root, all without sacrificing survivability by doing it manually.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Darksend
08-09-2009, 04:02 PM
Someone fails to understand that those specs were made BEFORE imp motw provided the stat bonus and BEFORE primal gore was even a talent. Because of that instead of having a point in berserk and none in primal gore it puts it in the lower talent in the tree because of the way wowhead reads specs.

also had you clicked the link above the specs you would see that all your comments are completely void.

demo shouts are now handled by a paladin. If your ret paladin does not have it tell him to go respec.

I do not have intensity in any of my specs. except this one Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrdceRcczAo0E0k) which again was made long before primal gore was even in the game and before imp mark provided the stat bonus.

As for the cat specs aagain THEY WERE MADE BEFORE THOSE TALENTS EXISTED.

So my 2 cents to your 2 cents is you need to read before posting and yes I should remove the old builds but I did not think anyone would actually read them seeing as how the new ones are posted right above them

Maul is terrible. The only 3 glyphs a bear should use anymore is growl SI and frenzied regen. When you have 699 HP left on algalon because your healer got sucked in and hit last stand and jump to 30K you will understand.

Lucasnut1138
08-11-2009, 09:23 AM
Awesome post Dark, some great discussion here, thought I'd add a few things I've found to be helpful.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000)
I also use Glyphs of SR, Shred, and Rip. Keep in mind this is a pure raiding dps build.

Source: lucero
If I'm opening with stealth, I open with ravage.
Source: Smoosh
Raid Boss:
1. Pounce.......

I have to disagree with both of you here. The energy investment / damage return does not justify either ability in my testing. After an hour or so on a raid boss dummy testing various opening rotations I've found

Rake - Savage Roar - Mangle - Tigers Fury - Shred

yields the highest initial damage. A couple notes. First, my tests stopped after Shred as I wanted data for just the opening attacks. Second, even with out clearcasting procs, you'll have enough energy to never miss a GCD. Put another way, you will never have to wait to use those first 5 abilites. Pounce and Ravage cost 50 and 60 energy respectively. Pounce is a low damage bleed, and coupled with the fact that you cannot rely on ravage critting they are both inferior opening moves. Third, if you run with an arms warrior or feral tank, replace mangle with a shred and you get even better opening damage.

As far as 5/5/5 goes, the only ability I make it a priority to get 5 combo points on is Rip. Savage Roar is usually 1 point, 2 if I get a crit. 14 seconds ( 22 with T8 4pc) is more than enough for a rotation. Ferocious Bite is another story. Short story is I fit it in as I can. Long story, are rake, rip, mangle/trauma, savage roar up? How much life does the mob have left? Is there another mechanic in the fight I have to pay attention to over doing more damage? Usually, I get 3-4 point FB's in.

I run glyph of rip over mangle any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
a) The one/two extra abilities you can possibly fit in with an extra 6 seconds of mangle can not gaurantee the damage an extra 4 seconds of rip can.
b) the longer the rip is the more time you can spend on keeping savage roar up, and fitting in FB's
c) Lots of bears/arms warriors out there, i almost never use it in a raid.

I take Imp Mangle in my cat spec. Two reasons.
a) On the occasion that I do need to use mangle, it costs less energy.
b) I've found it extremely useful when a boss or mob is at >1%. At 8 energy less than a Shred I can fit it in faster.

Lastly, I find pounce to be invaluable. Getting back into fights 3-5 seconds sooner is an incredible dps boost. I take it for the same reason a lot of raiders take the speed increase to boots. More combat time = dps.

Basically I believe cat dps comes down to a LOT of what if scenarios. Having 2 bleeds, a debuff, and a buff to maintain takes a lot of concentration, and a lot of decision making to maintain high dps. By taking things like Glyph of Rip, ImpM, and Feral Aggresion, you can maximize your damage in most of those what if situations.

Again, some great discussion here people. Keep it up.

Darksend
08-11-2009, 04:00 PM
I know next to 0 about cat, i just do what toskk tells me.

I will say 5/5/5/5 is amazing under 2 conditions.

1) you have 4t8
2) you have an arms warrior or a mangle bot

what that is is 5 sr 5 rip 5 FB 5 rip. You can almost pull it off without a mangle bot but that is really crit dependent. Always start the boss with a 1-2 point SR into a berserk then start the 5/5/5/5

Daywind
08-13-2009, 01:04 PM
Having read through this entire forum I've seen some discussion about Bear rotation and macro's. At first I found it a little confusing but I think I've got it distilled down enough.

For single target work I'm basically pulling with Faerie Fire (FF) and then Mangle, Lacerate until Mangle is available, Mangle, lacerate to 5 stacks, FF and then basically Mangle every time its up, FF every time its up (mangle getting preference on clash) and maintaining 5 stacks of Lacerate filling in the gaps with swipe. Maul is always queued up.

The only variation to this is if I have a significant threat lead I can sub out FF and replace with a swipe (or lacerate to maintain stacks).

The only area of concern here for me is whether or not swipe is appropriate or if I should just be lacerating all the time instead. My back of the envelope calculations show swipe having a slight lead on threat against the initial Lacerate (based on these threat values http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/47813-bear-3-0-threat-values.html, and my own recount parses over a night of raiding)

For reference my armory can be found here
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Caelestrasz&n=Daywind)

While I understand Infected Wounds(IW) gets overwritten by a lot of different things I have been finding myself in enough situations where the other debuffs aren't available (either through raid makeup or the specifics of the encounter) for long enough periods of time that it justifies taking IW.

lucero
08-23-2009, 10:45 PM
Lastly, I find pounce to be invaluable. Getting back into fights 3-5 seconds sooner is an incredible dps boost. I take it for the same reason a lot of raiders take the speed increase to boots. More combat time = dps.

Pounce is a stun only available from stealth, you're confusing it with Feral Charge - Cat.


I take Imp Mangle in my cat spec. Two reasons.
a) On the occasion that I do need to use mangle, it costs less energy.
b) I've found it extremely useful when a boss or mob is at >1%. At 8 energy less than a Shred I can fit it in faster.

I'll have to check your spec to really know whether I feel this is okay or not, but there are ways you could take ImpM and not be missing out on too much, I suppose. However, "on the occasion that I do need to use mangle" is telling. 3 points that you will occasionally get to use is 3 points that could potentially be spent better elsewhere.



After an hour or so on a raid boss dummy testing various opening rotations I've found

Rake - Savage Roar - Mangle - Tigers Fury - Shred

yields the highest initial damage.

All the theorycrafting I've read and my own personal experiences suggest that you should never put rake up before Savage Roar. Savage Roar does not work retroactively. If you put rake up before it none of those rake ticks will get SR's buff.



...coupled with the fact that you cannot rely on ravage critting...

My Ravage pretty much always crits. In fact, I'm glad you brought this up. It's been a while since I visited, but my guild has had a small influx of tanks so I haven't been needed to tank as much. Without my bear butt being needed I finally got the long-awaited chance to go full cat spec. I'm currently topping every ten man and nearly every 25 man raid boss fight that I take part in. I'm beating rogues who outgear me even though by Blizzard developers' programming I am designed to do 7% less dps than them. I am still doing this since the 3.2 dps nerf cats saw.

I still open with Feral charge/Ravage. It crits for insane dmg, I have two combo points, I savage roar. If there is an arms warrior I rake, if not I mangle, then rake. I pop tiger's fury, I shred to five and rip. I reapply rake if need be or get S.R. up again, depending on where each is at. Clearcasting procs allow me a few opportunities to FB. Rinse and repeat. I use 2 set bonus from T7.5, but no 2 or 4 set T8. I wish I could see what my numbers would look like if I got my hands on 4 pc T8.

I'm talking boss fights, not cat swipe aoe trash.


Basically I believe cat dps comes down to a LOT of what if scenarios.

This is totally correct. I think part of the reason my dps is so high is that I am better at reacting to various situations than some others. Maximizing cat dps is very situational. When mobs are low on health it's better to FB than rip, etc. The rotations we've gone over here are basically your best case scenario rotation, but you rarely face your best case scenario. Quickly making adjustments is the real key to maximizing your potential.

Smoosh
09-11-2009, 02:25 AM
Note: Font size/style may change during this, Had to copy paste from word and it will not resize properly. (sorry).
Link to this build at bottom of page. (I suggest you do read this guide though).
After a long time of trial and error, reading various forums and tests, i am very confident that this is the best (at this time) feral druid dps talent tree/rotation.

- Improved Mangle: Using mangle as a combo point builder is a personal choice, i find using shred with the improved talent is more effective, as shred hits harder if there is a bleed effect already up on the target. (I also find if you have a warrior or feral tank in the raid there is no need for you to use mangle, so shred is a clear combo builder for me).

- Feral Agression: I have seen too many feral dps druids overlook this talent. It is mostly because they do not read the fine print. 5/5 it gives an extra 15% damage to ferocious bite. 5 combo points with savage roar, a bleed effect (for the extra 50% crit on ferocious bite) and maybe a trinket, and this finishing move can hit extremely hard.

- Shredding Attacks: For the rotation i use it is essential to be specced into as i use shred, rather than mangle to build up combo points.

- Feral Charge: This is a great talent for getting in quick at the start of a boss fight, that and it comes in handy at times when a boss flings you back or you get cornered in a tight spot. Eg. Mimiron hard mode, you can jump over his fires on the ground if you get cornered.
-Naturalist: This talent is used in Feral trees more than it is used in the actual Restoration tree. I have seen Balance druids speccing into this. PLEASE READ IT PROPERLY. Increases the damage you deal with PHYSICAL ATTACKS. A huge waste of 5 talent points.
A must if you are a feral dps. 10% extra damage.

That is about all i have to say for the talent tree side of things.

How about some Glyphs to match that shiny new talent tree?
I have found this is about the best combination of glyphs to use for feral dps.

Glyph of Rip: Increases the duration of Rip by 4 seconds.
Keeping rip up is a must for doing decent damage, now that there is a talent to allow it to crit, it can be your main damaging ability.

Glyph of Shred: Each time you use shred, the duration of Rip is increased by 2 sec, up to a max of 6 sec.
This is pretty much win because the main attack to be using to build combo pts should be shred.

Glyph of Savage Roar: Your Savage Roar ability grants an additional 3% bonus damage done.

These 3 Major glyphs are best to use, don't bother with the Glyph of berserk. the extra 5 sec isnt too useful for pve. only get about 2 extra attacks in.

Minor glyphs, Nothing really special here. The only useful one is the rebirth one, the other 2 are pretty much up to you.

Now what use is a good talent tree if the rotation you are using is flawed?

- My personal rotation-

Trash: 1x shred/mangle for idol proc, savage roar, swipe spam.
Savage Roar/Trinket, spam Swipe. Use Tiger's Fury soon as you're out of energy, or Berserk if you really wana go crazy. (But who cares about trash).

Heroic Boss: Berserk, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 2 or 3 combo pts, savage roar, spam Ferocious Bite from then on.

Raid Boss: (This consists of 3 rotations)
1. Feral leap, open up with 1 or 2 shreds for idol to proc and 2 combo pts, savage roar, build up combo pts to 5 this time.
2. Same thing again but instead use Rip instead of Savage roar (while keeping rake up)
3 Again same thing but use ferocious bite as finishing move.
Then just keep up bleed effects and savage roar, keep the rotation going.

Using beserk depends on what stage of a fight you are in, if you want to use it with a bloodlust or use it to get your main bleed effects and Savage Roar up.

Also spam Tiger's Fury whenever you can.


Here's a link to the talent tree which i am personally using atm.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000553202032322010053 120030310511203503012000000000000000000)

Btw if you already have a feral tank in raid, you can spec out of improved leader of the pack if they are already specced into it, also you may see i put 3 points into furor, as this talent isnt exactly useful in the first place. may aswell get the stats from improved motw while having 2 extra points to throw around.

lucero
09-14-2009, 04:17 AM
Someone fails to understand that those specs were made BEFORE imp motw provided the stat bonus and BEFORE primal gore was even a talent. Because of that instead of having a point in berserk and none in primal gore it puts it in the lower talent in the tree because of the way wowhead reads specs.

also had you clicked the link above the specs you would see that all your comments are completely void.

demo shouts are now handled by a paladin. If your ret paladin does not have it tell him to go respec.

I do not have intensity in any of my specs. except this one Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrdceRcczAo0E0k) which again was made long before primal gore was even in the game and before imp mark provided the stat bonus.

As for the cat specs aagain THEY WERE MADE BEFORE THOSE TALENTS EXISTED.

So my 2 cents to your 2 cents is you need to read before posting and yes I should remove the old builds but I did not think anyone would actually read them seeing as how the new ones are posted right above them

Maul is terrible. The only 3 glyphs a bear should use anymore is growl SI and frenzied regen. When you have 699 HP left on algalon because your healer got sucked in and hit last stand and jump to 30K you will understand.

Ahhh. The lulz. I should edit my previous post to include that a druid should use Pounce when some idiot posts without taking any time to look at the details of what he's reading in the slightest. Nice Pounce, Dark.

lucero
09-14-2009, 04:23 AM
After an hour or so on a raid boss dummy testing various opening rotations I've found

Rake - Savage Roar - Mangle - Tigers Fury - Shred

yields the highest initial damage.

You should absolutely never apply rake before Savage Roar. Savage Roar doesn't work retroactively, meaning you just cost your rake 30% increased dmg. Same goes for why I use Ravage instead of Mangle. First, half the time I have a manglebot, and even if I didn't I can either a) get one combo point from ravage without a crit, then mangle and apply a 2 point SR or I b) crit and get to hit my SR right after the ravage, then begin my bleed rotation. It just works for me, and I top most dps charts so I'll stick to it.

Trondhjem
09-22-2009, 04:42 AM
AWESOME Work! Great Video, thanks a lot!

Kylina3
09-22-2009, 08:22 AM
This is a really awesome guide and I've glanced through all the posts. However! I haven't seen a gear guide anywhere. In the main post it said gear would be listed, which it wasn't. Someone else posted a gear guide which is really good, but the raid gear stops before Naxx. Is there anyone that can post an updated gear guide so I can have a better understanding of how I should lvl my gear as I'm a new 80 bear? :D I did kitty the whole way leveling so I'm still not 100% sure on bear stuff.

3up
09-22-2009, 09:17 AM
First of all i want to say: THIS IS A GREAT GUIDE !! Nice video with the rotations, nicely done.
But i have a question for Darksen. With the dual-spec implemented in the game, what build you use for tanking now a days? for myself im looking for a nice main tank spec, for 10 mans and also to be stable as for example an offtank or something in 25's, any ideas?

Kind regards,

3up

Predakhan
09-22-2009, 12:30 PM
You should absolutely never apply rake before Savage Roar. Savage Roar doesn't work retroactively, meaning you just cost your rake 30% increased dmg. Same goes for why I use Ravage instead of Mangle. First, half the time I have a manglebot, and even if I didn't I can either a) get one combo point from ravage without a crit, then mangle and apply a 2 point SR or I b) crit and get to hit my SR right after the ravage, then begin my bleed rotation. It just works for me, and I top most dps charts so I'll stick to it.

A feral kitties opening sequence is such a small percentage of our overall damage I find it not worth arguing about. I personally never use pounce and never will but if it is working for you then go for it.

I have also found that as my gear has changed away from the 4 piece T8 bonus I have had to make adjustments to my rotation and opener.

I would be careful having the attitude that just because you are topping your raids charts you can't do things better/differently.

Predakhan
09-22-2009, 12:37 PM
I have to disagree with both of you here. The energy investment / damage return does not justify either ability in my testing. After an hour or so on a raid boss dummy testing various opening rotations I've found

Rake - Savage Roar - Mangle - Tigers Fury - Shred



With my old 4 piece T8 bonus I found Mangle - Rake - Savage Roar a good opener. Then shred and refresh mangle and rake as needed till a 5 point rip. I pop Tiger's Fury as needed in there.

Now that I have lost my set bonus I find I am waiting to get to 4 or 5 combo points before using Savage Roar. While I may be losing a small amount of my opening sequence dps I find it helps a lot more for overall uptime once I have everything rolling.

Having the shorter savage roar definitely takes some getting used to.

Insahnity
09-22-2009, 04:58 PM
Anybody see any PvE applications for 3.2.2 changes to predatory strikes, or is it purely PvP for instant HT/cyclone/root?

Terra
09-23-2009, 12:10 PM
I'm a bit lost. I've read through this thread several times and I can't seem to navigate my way to what I need to do... My background:

I have a level 80 toon of every class and they are all geared at least to 25 man Ulduar standards. My active tanks are my Warrior and my Paladin, so I understand the principles of threat, tanking, situational awareness etc...

My druid, however, is my main toon and has been Balance/Resto for quite a while. However, lately we have been slacking in having enough tanks to support 3 10 man ToC Heroic groups eventually and I have been under a little bit of pressure to play my Pally to tank it rather than get to go on my main. What I am working on doing, instead, is dropping my resto off-spec and putting in a Bear-only tanking spec (if I'm needed to DPS I'll be balance).

I have full expectation that if I am in Bear spec it will be for 10 man content only and I am unlikely to have a warrior or ret pally with me. I've watched your video (great work and thank you) and I like the thought of improved mangle as it seems simpler and as near as I can understand will result in higher threat.

Can you help me translate this into which spec is right for me?


--- Second question ---

Your rotation for improved mangle lead in was:

Demoralizing Roar, Mangle, Faerie Fire, Lacerate, Mangle, Lacerate, Lacerate, Mangle, Lacerate, Lacerate, Mangle, Berserk....

I'd like to understand Berserk better. As I read it, berserk is mostly useful to cats and it's only application I am seeing as a tank are on fights where the boss has a fear effect. Am I missing something?

Darksend
09-23-2009, 12:14 PM
I'd like to understand Berserk better. As I read it, berserk is mostly useful to cats and it's only application I am seeing as a tank are on fights where the boss has a fear effect. Am I missing something?

It removes the cooldown from mangle-bear so you can spam mangle for 15 seconds non stop - 1 for a lacerate refresh.

Terra
09-23-2009, 12:50 PM
Ah got it. The rotation makes sense now and I think I understand it well enough to know when to vary from the course....

I'm leaning towards this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceoc0dAkbAczb)

You presented it as being best for TPS. Here's my concerns: My gear is what I've assembled as off-spec gear for quite a while. Most of it is ilvl 226 and I do have Twisted Visage as a decent weapon to be starting to tank with, but a few pieces lean more towards cat than they do Bear (I'm working to fix it). By going with this spec, I am putting trust in my healers to be able to keep me alive while I work on improving the gear, while allowing my DPSers to continue to go full speed ahead. This build does sacrifice feral aggression, however, and I'm not sure if I should work it in considering I am unlikely to have a warrior or a ret pally in my group.

If I have to scale back my threat in order to put in more survivability, I anticipate the first change to make is to drop KotJ in favor of ILotP.

Here's the gear I've assembled to start tanking with in case you have thoughts:

Head: [Conqueror's Nightsong Headguard]
Neck: [Shard of the Crystal Forest]
Shoulders: [Treacherous Shoulderpads]
Chest: [Conqueror's Nightsong Raiments]
Wrist: [Armbands of the Wary Lookout]
Hands: [Gloves of the Stonereaper]
Waist: [Death-Warmed Belt]
Legs: [Proto-hide Leggings]
Feet: [Footpads of Silence]
Finger 1: [Loop of the Agile] < - I am working on getting [Uruka's Band of Zeal] to replace this
Finger 2: [Signet of the Impregnable Fortress]
Back: [Platinum Mesh Cloak]
Idol: [Idol of the Corruptor]
Weapon: [Twisted Visage]
Trinket 1: [Bitter Balebrew Charm] < - Working on getting [The Black Heart] instead
Trinket 2: [Bubbling Brightbrew Charm]

Draks
09-23-2009, 01:30 PM
Just my 2 cents...

I'd stay away from KotJ in a bear build. The armor loss from Enrage means you should never use it while you're taking physical damage.

Also, will you reliably have a melee attack speed debuff? You should look at Infected Wounds if the answer is no.

Terra
09-23-2009, 01:52 PM
For 10 mans, my other tank will either be a DK with Icy Touch or a Pally w/ Judgement of the Just. In both cases, I would expect the melee speed debuff to be applied. (I say that not understanding DK tanking very well. I would assume a DK tank would apply Icy Touch as a matter of normal course of action?)

Would I be better off with this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRc0zAkbAczb)

I'd still be giving up Feral Aggression w/ no expectation of anyone else able to apply the same benefit.

leyt
09-26-2009, 11:08 AM
Hey Darksend :)
Really awesome video you'va maded, tbh i'm using kinda the same rotation, but you just improved it with alittle by doing the swipe instead of doing lacerate.

I've wondered ALOT what addons you're using when you're raiding. It's and really awesome UI you got and i would like to know if you could tell me what addons you are using, to maybe increase my threat more or increase my tanking at all :o)..

Thanks on forhand
Regards Leyt (:

lucero
09-26-2009, 11:12 AM
I personally never use pounce and never will but if it is working for you then go for it.

I would be careful having the attitude that just because you are topping your raids charts you can't do things better/differently.

I never said pounce was working for me. I don't use pounce. Nor did I ever say I thought I couldn't "do things better." There is always room for improvement, and not just in video games.

Darksend - Nice bear rotation video.

I'm only getting to play a few times a week now due to an "opportunity of a lifetime" type job I just got so I might not be around as much. I'll keep an eye on the discussions here as time allows. Best regards to all the druids out there!

Kylina3
09-28-2009, 12:27 AM
Sooo where's the gear guide for WOTLK? I'm just confused because it said there would be one at the beginning and I never saw one.... :(

Xnot
09-28-2009, 08:34 AM
It removes the cooldown from mangle-bear so you can spam mangle for 15 seconds non stop - 1 for a lacerate refresh.

I noticed none of your suggested talent builds include Berserk.

I am also confused about the use of FFF within the rotation. I believe you said hit it every single time it's available but you didn't include it within your '1st three rotations' list after the initial application.

Darksend
09-28-2009, 11:25 AM
Sooo where's the gear guide for WOTLK? I'm just confused because it said there would be one at the beginning and I never saw one.... :(

The guide was getting to long sooo....... http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/45030-3-0-8-feral-druid-gear-guide.html

as for an updated one, I myself use a list that my friend and fellow blogger made so any list I were to post would just be a 100% copy of his list.


I noticed none of your suggested talent builds include Berserk.

I am also confused about the use of FFF within the rotation. I believe you said hit it every single time it's available but you didn't include it within your '1st three rotations' list after the initial application.






VII. Talent Builds

1. Tanking Builds
@ wowhead: Why must you hate me so. In the meantime: I'm not feral, I'm a Bear: Community Spotlight: Tentative Feral Raiding Specs for 3.1 (http://mother-bear.blogspot.com/2009/04/community-spotlight-tentative-feral.html) and 3.1 Bear Specs (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/48204-3-1-bear-specs.html)Had you actually read those you would have realized that all the builds that I just deleted were made BEFORE PRIMAL GORE was a talent. thus wowhead shifted all the builds by 1 point.

As for FF, my thinking is the sooner you get a 5 stack of lacerate the sooner you can use berserk.

Losthero
09-28-2009, 11:41 AM
I know this thread is for feral tanking but I was wondering if you knew much about feral kitty and stat caps and all that goodness. I been playing for a long time as feral kitty and im having a heck of a time figuring out optimal numbers for my spec. I can throw out 5.7k dps almost 6k, but I mean my expertise is low and my hit rating is somewhat high and I cant seem to even it all out so im hit capped and have some good expertise. I also have the concern with my weapon and trying to figure out it a little bit of crit and AP is better then a deascent amount of haste and ArP? if you could in any way help me id very much appreciate it. If you wanna look at my armory to see what my deal is here is the link The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kirin+Tor&n=Losthero)

Darksend
09-28-2009, 11:48 AM
I know this thread is for feral tanking but I was wondering if you knew much about feral kitty and stat caps and all that goodness. I been playing for a long time as feral kitty and im having a heck of a time figuring out optimal numbers for my spec. I can throw out 5.7k dps almost 6k, but I mean my expertise is low and my hit rating is somewhat high and I cant seem to even it all out so im hit capped and have some good expertise. I also have the concern with my weapon and trying to figure out it a little bit of crit and AP is better then a deascent amount of haste and ArP? if you could in any way help me id very much appreciate it. If you wanna look at my armory to see what my deal is here is the link The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kirin+Tor&n=Losthero)

This post does not belong here



HALP! I need advice (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f175/:) This is where you go to ask for help. If you are posting a link to your armoury to ask for help or suggestions, your post belongs here. If you are asking "Am I ready to tank X?", your post belongs here. If you're asking about your talent spec, or a talent spec you came up with, your post belongs here.

As for the caps: hit is 8% and expertise is 26 skill, and ArP is now 1400 to hard cap.

Xnot
09-28-2009, 11:51 AM
The guide was getting to long sooo....... http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/45030-3-0-8-feral-druid-gear-guide.html

as for an updated one, I myself use a list that my friend and fellow blogger made so any list I were to post would just be a 100% copy of his list.






Had you actually read those you would have realized that all the builds that I just deleted were made BEFORE PRIMAL GORE was a talent. thus wowhead shifted all the builds by 1 point.

As for FF, my thinking is the sooner you get a 5 stack of lacerate the sooner you can use berserk.

Thank you for answering. Sorry I dind't make the connection there to the new talent specs. Plz keep up the hard work, I appreciate it.

roovis
10-05-2009, 10:58 PM
Thanks for the video on the feral threat rotation guide. It is much appreciated, and I understood parts of it. However, I am hearing impaired (really!) and the part where you actually listed the rotation and rules was very difficult to understand. Could you post a written version of this portion of the guide? It would be most appreciated. Note: To the rest of the people who make TankSpot videos, having a written version to accompany the guides is most appreciated to those who are hard of hearing or deaf. Please continue doing this. We'll love you for it! :) Thanks...

geros
10-06-2009, 05:58 AM
Transcribed:

Imp Mangle (3 rotation)


First 4:

Demo Roar
Mangle
FF






lacerate
Mangle
Lacerate



Lacerate
Mangle
Lacerate



Lacerate
Mangle
Beserk



Remaining:

Mangle
Swipe

If demo roar is down, use demo roar
if FF is down, use FF


Swipe

If Lacerate is < 5 seconds, use lacerate





No Imp Mangle (4 rotation)



First 3:

mangle
FF
lacerate
lacerate






Mangle
lacerate
lacerate
lacerate



Mangle
Beserk



Remaining:

Mangle
FF
Demo Roar

If demo roar is up, swipe


Swipe

If lacerate < 5 seconds, lacerate






I think dark got a little screwy on the imp mangle first 4, it should probably be:


demo
mangle
FF



mangle
lac
lac



mangle
lac
lac



mangle
lac
beserk

BearBark
10-13-2009, 08:26 PM
I've just recently made a tanking spec and I'm not sure if its just me or
something but i cannot seem to get my stamina very high. Unbuffed i seem to
get 29000 and people are saying my stamina should be amazing, this is
starting to get annoying mind giving me some advice?

Here's a link to my stuff: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormrage&n=Garadoth&ST=US-5185760-ws0i0eXKpvCaaVQaSoPONukpIlUS5YhTlg2)

Any advice would be appreciated :D

Kzanol
10-14-2009, 04:07 AM
I've just recently made a tanking spec and I'm not sure if its just me or
something but i cannot seem to get my stamina very high. Unbuffed i seem to
get 29000 and people are saying my stamina should be amazing, this is
starting to get annoying mind giving me some advice?

Here's a link to my stuff: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormrage&n=Garadoth&ST=US-5185760-ws0i0eXKpvCaaVQaSoPONukpIlUS5YhTlg2)

Any advice would be appreciated :D

Hiho, Fellow Bear!

Your talent distribution looks like a leveling/questing one to me:
No boss will be impressed by brutal impact, nor should rage be a problem after 1rst 2-3 hits, which makes shreddings attacks and brutal impact obsolet. Put 2 points into primal precision to gain 10 expertise (not expertise rating!). Imp. Mark of the wild has recently turned from 'waste of points for ferals, we definitely do have some tree(s) in raid' to 'MUST HAVE!!' (1% to all stats per point). I shifted 2 points from furor to the left into IMotW. Feel free to look at my spec as basis, it's most probably my 5-10 (wo)mens spec, raid spec will shift infected wounds and King of the jungle points into resto tree's Master Shapeshifter. BTW Feral instinct pushes our one and only aoe tanking skill, take it!

You are kind of hitcapped against lvl 93 mobs.^^ 13,88 raw %, 1% darenei bonus (alliance only), 3% provided by shadow or owlkin, 8% from your glyph of growl - my calculator went off by these numbers. ;)

Plz don't gem for hit or expertise, unless there's some URGENT need! 10Agi/15Sta, 30 Sta or 20 Agi are gems of choice for ferals, and don't run for any available socket bonus just because there is one. Boni you may want to keep/get are kind of 8Sta or 6 Agi PER SOCKET. Don't gem for dodge (shoes, shoulders), 10Agi/15Sta serves you better, when short of stamina, bonus of 4 ArP (shoulders) is not a big deal, so go for 30 stamina if you like.

Cloak enchant should be 22 Agi not XYZ Def rating. Agi rules, agi means dodge, crit and armor, let alone agi scales with blessing of kings, same goes for gloves, get rid of hit enchant, plz. Breast is good enough to go for +10 to all stats, definitely!

Think about getting pvp shoulder enchant for 10k honor (30 sta, xyz resilance rating) instead of sons of hodirs' one (15 doge/10 def).

Have a look to cloak for 25 badges (old ones), slightly better than yours, but it's small steps that make a mile. ;)

Try to get a decent tanking weapon, yours a kitty one. ;) Origin of nightmares comes to mind (Naxx, 2nd boss in construct quarter plus a small chance with 3rd one) or go arena and get some gladiator's one. Onyxia 10/25 drops shadowstrike, a nice kitty weapon which by use builds you a very decent tanking weapon! And again ... regem! 20 (useless) hit (+4 agi as bonus) is a waste compared to red, blue or purple gem you could put into.

Well, now we come to money can buy items:
Handmade shoes and waist (ulduar recipes) and (a lot) more expensive wrists and breast (trial of crusader recipes) will burn some pixel gold, but as I see you're herbalist, usually not known as poor chars.^^

Just an estimate, but following hints from above should gain you some 150 Sta/50Agi (points are subject to shift between these two) pre IMotW, making up for some 2.5k life, another extra 250 by BoK in raid.

Disclaimer: English's not my native language, no rudeness or name calling is intended. ;)

geros
10-14-2009, 05:42 AM
I personally don't like master shapeshifter in a bear only build, mostly what you need to do is shift two points in brutal impact into primal precision and two points into imp MOTW. You either want to go 3/3 in infected wounds or 0/3 (either you are covering the thunderclap debuff or you aren't). I wouldn't suggest the above talent spec for that reason. Darksend has a good set of bear and bearcat talent specs in the first post.

You should drop the growl glyph for a maul glyph. It'll help you in multi pack scenarios.

You probably need to gem almost exclusively for stam. When looking at socketing for a bear set I ask two questions, is it an agility or stam bonus? Are there no yellow gems for the bonus? If both answers are yes, I'll try and make it. Otherwise you're better off just going for stam. Agi enchants on cloak/gloves would be good.

Thunderstrike = bearstrike in Ony 10/25, anguish/fordragon blades is another alternative if you've got ToC 10 on farm. The champion seal reward staff actually rates pretty high as well. It's just hard to find a naxx group anymore.

Igrado
10-19-2009, 12:26 PM
When you say to end your opening rotation with Berserk, do you mean Enrage (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=5229)?

geros
10-19-2009, 12:36 PM
nope, Berserk - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50334) . Gives you the threat lead.

Igrado
10-19-2009, 12:46 PM
oh, DUH.

Thanks,

Imwy
11-19-2009, 02:43 PM
This guide and the blog are a great resource. Thanks for your time.

Darksend
11-19-2009, 04:57 PM
Look for a new video in a few days as soon as cider gets around to looking at it.

This video will basically just be an audio version of the writen guide for those who prefer to listen instead of read. It will cover talents, glyphs, and a little bit about gearing, geming, and enchanting.

Darksend
11-20-2009, 10:21 PM
In the process of doing a massive update to some minor things, such as infected wounds not stacking and the new innervate mechanics, nothing that effects the content of the guide just some housekeeping that I have fallen behind on. If you notice anything still not updated to 3.2.2 (not 3.3 which I plan on updating once the PTR is finished not before) leave a reply and I will correct it. Sometimes you just miss things on talents you never use.

Edit: correction just finished the 3.2.2 updates as well as any housekeeping mistakes from 3.2 and 3.1. Should be completely up-to-date as far as descriptions but if I missed any please let me know

Darksend
12-11-2009, 05:38 AM
Added a new Gear sub-section at the bottom in regards to 3.3.



4. 3.3 Best-in-Slot List


I have finished a very basic best-in-slot list for ICC. Blizzard is using a different philosophy than in ToC in regards to sockets and as such if you do not plan on doing hard modes just fill in the 264 items of the same name and the list still holds true. The write-up can be found here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/59727-3-3-277-feral-tank-best-slot-list.html).

skj91
12-12-2009, 02:56 AM
Hiho, Fellow Bear!

Your talent distribution looks like a leveling/questing one to me:
No boss will be impressed by brutal impact, nor should rage be a problem after 1rst 2-3 hits, which makes shreddings attacks and brutal impact obsolet. Put 2 points into primal precision to gain 10 expertise (not expertise rating!). Imp. Mark of the wild has recently turned from 'waste of points for ferals, we definitely do have some tree(s) in raid' to 'MUST HAVE!!' (1% to all stats per point). I shifted 2 points from furor to the left into IMotW. Feel free to look at my spec as basis, it's most probably my 5-10 (wo)mens spec, raid spec will shift infected wounds and King of the jungle points into resto tree's Master Shapeshifter. BTW Feral instinct pushes our one and only aoe tanking skill, take it!

You are kind of hitcapped against lvl 93 mobs.^^ 13,88 raw %, 1% darenei bonus (alliance only), 3% provided by shadow or owlkin, 8% from your glyph of growl - my calculator went off by these numbers. ;)

Plz don't gem for hit or expertise, unless there's some URGENT need! 10Agi/15Sta, 30 Sta or 20 Agi are gems of choice for ferals, and don't run for any available socket bonus just because there is one. Boni you may want to keep/get are kind of 8Sta or 6 Agi PER SOCKET. Don't gem for dodge (shoes, shoulders), 10Agi/15Sta serves you better, when short of stamina, bonus of 4 ArP (shoulders) is not a big deal, so go for 30 stamina if you like.

Cloak enchant should be 22 Agi not XYZ Def rating. Agi rules, agi means dodge, crit and armor, let alone agi scales with blessing of kings, same goes for gloves, get rid of hit enchant, plz. Breast is good enough to go for +10 to all stats, definitely!

Think about getting pvp shoulder enchant for 10k honor (30 sta, xyz resilance rating) instead of sons of hodirs' one (15 doge/10 def).

Have a look to cloak for 25 badges (old ones), slightly better than yours, but it's small steps that make a mile. ;)

Try to get a decent tanking weapon, yours a kitty one. ;) Origin of nightmares comes to mind (Naxx, 2nd boss in construct quarter plus a small chance with 3rd one) or go arena and get some gladiator's one. Onyxia 10/25 drops shadowstrike, a nice kitty weapon which by use builds you a very decent tanking weapon! And again ... regem! 20 (useless) hit (+4 agi as bonus) is a waste compared to red, blue or purple gem you could put into.

Well, now we come to money can buy items:
Handmade shoes and waist (ulduar recipes) and (a lot) more expensive wrists and breast (trial of crusader recipes) will burn some pixel gold, but as I see you're herbalist, usually not known as poor chars.^^

Just an estimate, but following hints from above should gain you some 150 Sta/50Agi (points are subject to shift between these two) pre IMotW, making up for some 2.5k life, another extra 250 by BoK in raid.

Disclaimer: English's not my native language, no rudeness or name calling is intended. ;)

skj91
12-12-2009, 02:56 AM
Hiho, Fellow Bear!

Disclaimer: English's not my native language, no rudeness or name calling is intended. ;)



Are you serious? I never would've guessed, your English is excellent. Very fluent and natural sounding. Maybe a couple mispellings here or there which anyone could just take as typo-s, but really you sound perfectly fine to this native English speaker :)



OK now for my question to Dark regarding the feral build stuffs. First of all I'm really a bear more than a cat, but... since WotLK (and all the bear nerfs that cam with it) my little 3-5 man BC heroic running guild (by 3-5 man i mean during BC, we used to run a few 5 man heroics w/ only 3 people, alot of them w/ only 4, but whatever the case, I tanked jthe whole way through since before BC, in the days of silithus bug farming for rep i'd been The tank. Well with Wrath came alts for me and my buds and for the first time ever, kitty-form became an option for me. Additionally, my little 3-5 man group hooked up w/ a friend's guild so some actual raiding came into our lives and is now a weekly schedule. BUT, The guild we hooked up with, of course, already had their set MT and OT and even a couple of back-up people who could filled in tanking when MT/OT couldn't be there. All in all, I'm pretty much gonna be kitty-form, end of discussion. Because of this along w/ my buddies rolling tank alts as well as my own (at the time of Wrath's release) much needed break from tanking altogether, I, like most ferals here, split my build into 2 feral builds: kitty spec, and bear spec.
Well now that blizzard has sort-of compensated for alot of the bear nerfs WotLK started with and especially since finally fixing rage generation for bears, I'm really wanting to go back to a more balanced cat/bear spec in one, like it was back before dual-speccing swas even a thought in the days of BC. My main objective is to maintain the uber-kitty DPS I have now in raids but (this is the ipoertant part) be able to shift from kitty to bear when schiess hits the fan and pick up the role of OT so OT can pick MT when MT goes down, or heck.. maybe even tank-it all when they both go down, and not get embarrassingly 1-shot wiped because i'm in my kitty spec.
Taking up tanking when original tank(s) go down is instinctive to me, I can't not do it. (shifting to bear is so much faster than brezzing the tank, and well going "OH ****"an promptly going bear is like a reflex, you know... I really need to be able to live through it or I just look stupid.

All of that said, I'm at aq loss for how to spec bear and cat both into one build. If seems that if it's a negligable or uselexss talent for one form it's a must have for the other. I looked at the hybrid build you have linked on the first page but... meh, my ferocious bite damge these days is massive, refuse to give up 5/5 Feral Aggression as my kitty DPS drops substantially (it's already dropped some from the 4% to crit lost by giving up master shapeshifter) and energy being my biggest limiter in kitty DPS output already, I hate to give up 5/5 Ferocity too. I respecced to a kitty & bear in one couple days ago and tried it out tanking a H UP pug and tried out kitty in Ulduar with my regular group. What I found was that bear did just fine in that build, no worries at all, no 'close-calls' no aggro problems, yadda, yadda, yadda (this was w/a pug, mind you) but kitty suffered ALOT (the previous 2 weeks was in top 2 of the raid in DPS in Ulduar, same group of people, same bosses, etc., but in this duo-spec build dropped to 7th in a 10-man raid) and average DPS on meter down by about 1k.

Sooooo, here's the question (finally) which of the tanking talents should I start knocking out first? What are the least vital/have least impact on tanking-capability yet at the same time do not severely impact kitty output?


P.S.(I have a big preferance for a Rake/Rip + Mangle/FB rotation over any kind of cycle using Shred, I absolutely hate shred, won't use it unless the fight goes on forever and is boring and I start getting lazy but other than that, i have to be active in a fight, adrenaline rushing, heart beating fast sorry i just can't bring myself to spam one, and only one key, once every 5 seconds, too high-strung for that.)

Here are my previous bear/cat split builds and the newly attempted bear+cat spec which is failing at cat:


Original Bear Spec:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRc0uAzby0d (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRc0uAzby0d)

Original Cat build (still have this for second build until i find a dual-role build that works):
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000552202030322010053 120030313511203503012000000000000000000 (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000552202030322010053 120030313511203503012000000000000000000)

Newly attampted Cat+Bear-in-one-build:
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000443232030321010253 120330213511203500010000000000000000000 (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000443232030321010253 120330213511203500010000000000000000000)


any input, on what bear can go without here in order to keep as much of the original cat-spec abilities as possible will be much appreciated.

Rammekin
01-02-2010, 06:45 PM
Updated for 3.3


[QUOTE]For your meta, you want the Austere Earthsiege Diamond (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41380). It takes 2 blue and a red to activate. .Just out of curiousity I have been playing around with Effulgent Skyflare Diamond recently instead of the Austere. I am currently running 31.9k armor with Paw up but no agi from idol and found that the 618 bonus from the Austere gem was only giving me about .5% reduction to physical. Your thoughts on if this .5% physical reduction would be better than the 2% spell reduction since magic is our more difficult type of mitigation. With ICC being as it is I'm not sure if we should be more worried about spell or physical Or just go on case by case basis

Darksend
01-04-2010, 02:37 PM
updated the formatting, all the sections in the table of contents are now clickable links that take you directly to the appropriate section.

Bonemachine
01-10-2010, 08:33 AM
Hello,
I have few question regarding tanking.
I've been resto for my life and only started tanking (offtanking) recently for guild progression needs.
Since I got very interested in tanking now I kept it even while Im not needed as tank anymore.
I pretty much got all I needed from Darksend's video and guild and was reading a lot.
Whats makes my biggest problem is AoE tanking (it might sound so stupid).
Never had problems with single target tanking using Imp. Mangle rotation.
But for example tanking trash (even in 5 man heroics) sometimes can make problem. Im not even sure if that up to me or Im just feeling bad for loosing aggro of some retards that cant even follow tanks target or watch their own treath. What could possibly I do wrong? would like to hear some more expirienced tanks on some tricks and tactics or even rotations for trash?

Also I came across one more thing that bothers me.
Should I or should I not use macro that applys Maul to my constantly used abilities (like mangle, Swipe Lanc etc.) so I can basicaly spam Maul all time.
Sometimes its seems okay but sometimes it doesnt becouse it can eat my rage so fast.

Thanks in advance.
/Bone

Darksend
01-10-2010, 11:12 AM
Have to identical bars, one with your normal abilities with no maul macros and then a second bar with maul macros for all your abilities. I have become so used to not using macros and like the option to stop mauling when I get low on rage that I could never adjust to macros but they work for some people so the best option is just have those two identical bars.

Korigatachi
01-19-2010, 04:45 AM
Dear Sir,

first thanks very much for the movie and guide on drood tanking and the related item lists, I now have a lot of fun with my bear!

I have quite some work to do on my stuff, and am well guided by your recommendations except on one topic:

How should I choose my bear weapon ?
is the weapon dps important or should I look for a max feral ap ? should I look for slow weapons (I see you put a slow pole arm as bis). I know you speak a bit about weapons in the video but I am not sure I understood an actual recommendation on what to look for there (I am not a native english speaker).

Thanks again for the very helpfull work, Best Regards,

Kori

Darksend
01-19-2010, 01:36 PM
DPS = feral ap. speed means nothing

felhoof
01-19-2010, 04:51 PM
I would recommend Thick Hide as a candidate for points you could move. I believe that although it is a helpful tanking talent, it only reduces incoming damage by a small amount, and for a hybrid cat/bear spec you could afford to lose it.There's so much wrong here it's not funny. I guess if you're going mostly cat it'd be okay, but 10% more armor is about 3000 armor for a bear at the end of the day.

3000 armor against Festergut reduces his last dangerous swings by about 5000 damage, give or take a bit.

If you don't think that's valuable, I don't know what to tell you.

Ferim
01-31-2010, 09:29 PM
Hey was just wondering how everyone feels about the 264 feral trinket? I see dark is still rocking the corruptor idol, 220 agi at 5 stacks is more then the 150, but perhaps the up-time is less?
Thanks

Darksend
02-01-2010, 04:01 AM
trinket = idol = costs badges = so does 4pc

getting cape next then idol last

Ferim
02-01-2010, 02:22 PM
Ah ok, well I go for the easy upgrades first.

lucero
02-06-2010, 09:30 AM
Ah ok, well I go for the easy upgrades first.

O.o

I go for the best upgrade first.

But I'm a full time tree now... =(

myankema
02-18-2010, 01:41 PM
I'm also a relatively new bear (3 months) - coming from the laser turkey and tree worlds.

What I've found works for AOE tanking is to use lots of swipe. If you're marking (does anyone mark anymore?), hit the first mob with FFF and then sometimes I'll do a Feral Charge to get in ahead of my melee. Then I'll swipe x2 and throw up Demo Roar. Then it's about tabbing through the mobs to see where everyone is in threat using Omen. I'll queue Maul and apply Mangle to the mob where I've got the lowest threat lead and then alternate between swipe, FFF, and Mangle depending on CDs of the last 2, while queueing up Maul if I've got enough Rage.

Does that sound horribly complicated? I think AOE tanking for bears is kinda complicated, but the above has usually worked out pretty well for me. To be honest, I think Swipe alone can get you above healer aggro and if the DPS can't watch their own threat - they'll die. You can save them if you taunt, but if you've got 3 DPS yahoos, someone is probably gonna die.

So in summary:
FFF pull
Maul/Swipe x2
Demo Roar
Tab to mob with lowest threat lead and Maul/Mangle
Maul/Swipe x2
FFF or Maul/Mangle

If anyone has a simpler way to do it, I'd love to hear it :)

-myan


Hello,
I have few question regarding tanking.
I've been resto for my life and only started tanking (offtanking) recently for guild progression needs.
Since I got very interested in tanking now I kept it even while Im not needed as tank anymore.
I pretty much got all I needed from Darksend's video and guild and was reading a lot.
Whats makes my biggest problem is AoE tanking (it might sound so stupid).
Never had problems with single target tanking using Imp. Mangle rotation.
But for example tanking trash (even in 5 man heroics) sometimes can make problem. Im not even sure if that up to me or Im just feeling bad for loosing aggro of some retards that cant even follow tanks target or watch their own treath. What could possibly I do wrong? would like to hear some more expirienced tanks on some tricks and tactics or even rotations for trash?

Also I came across one more thing that bothers me.
Should I or should I not use macro that applys Maul to my constantly used abilities (like mangle, Swipe Lanc etc.) so I can basicaly spam Maul all time.
Sometimes its seems okay but sometimes it doesnt becouse it can eat my rage so fast.

Thanks in advance.
/Bone

Tashia
02-19-2010, 12:11 AM
Well I've been using this simple macro for AoE tanking:

/cast Swipe (Bear)
/cast !Maul

Always target the mob you have the lowest threat on.
I never had problems with DPS taking aggro from me unless they single target dps and use cooldowns.

lucero
02-22-2010, 10:07 AM
Then it's about tabbing through the mobs to see where everyone is in threat using Omen. I'll queue Maul and apply Mangle to the mob where I've got the lowest threat lead...

...if the DPS can't watch their own threat - they'll die. You can save them if you taunt, but if you've got 3 DPS yahoos, someone is probably gonna die.

-myan

As for tab targeting, I also like to throw a lacerate up on each while I'm cycling through. It's optional, but I find it helps. Otherwise, I would say this is pretty spot on. Also, I'd like to add that the place where I have the biggest problems of late is in my random dailies. This isn't so much because druid aoe tanking is hard, as it is about the second quote I included from Myan. No one from these cross server pugs cares how they are playing, who they are playing with, who they tick off, etc. Half the time they are aoeing before I even charge in. Obviously, the difficulty in aoe tanking goes up exponentially when you have dps who don't allow for any threat to be built. I usually don't even try to save these players. In raid settings, I don't run into these problems.


One final thing, I'm also really interested in thoughts on the meta question. I'm thinking I might just try out the reduction to magic. Would like to hear other thoughts.

Happy tanking!

Sabett
03-19-2010, 03:34 AM
This macro works great for me. Changes target every time I use it, the only problem being mobs in the distance will be targeted so I try to turn the group to the side or back towards the casters. My big problem has been aoe threat (5 man heroics) or loss thereof but from reading this I'm guessing I'm way off on expertise and/or working with dps cowboys in pugs.

#showtooltip
/targetenemy
/cast Swipe (Bear)(Rank 8)
/cast Maul(Rank 10)



Well I've been using this simple macro for AoE tanking:

/cast Swipe (Bear)
/cast !Maul

Always target the mob you have the lowest threat on.
I never had problems with DPS taking aggro from me unless they single target dps and use cooldowns.

Svarogg
03-23-2010, 06:26 AM
I just started to Tank with my druid also... I find AoE tanking easy my rot is Swipe x3, Demo, then i switch between tab targeting with FF and Swipes. The only way I lose agro is if a DPS uses an AoE before a get a swipe or 2 off. I rarely use mangle and maul since this game is all about AoE tanking. Althought my FF is a macro with Maul.

Halrloprillalar
04-07-2010, 10:03 AM
As for tab targeting, I also like to throw a lacerate up on each while I'm cycling through. It's optional, but I find it helps. Otherwise, I would say this is pretty spot on. Also, I'd like to add that the place where I have the biggest problems of late is in my random dailies. This isn't so much because druid aoe tanking is hard, as it is about the second quote I included from Myan. No one from these cross server pugs cares how they are playing, who they are playing with, who they tick off, etc. Half the time they are aoeing before I even charge in. Obviously, the difficulty in aoe tanking goes up exponentially when you have dps who don't allow for any threat to be built. I usually don't even try to save these players. In raid settings, I don't run into these problems.


One final thing, I'm also really interested in thoughts on the meta question. I'm thinking I might just try out the reduction to magic. Would like to hear other thoughts.

Happy tanking!

I don't know what kind of content you're talking about (heroics? not really a big deal, most mobs don't hurt that much - put on your cat gear, gg). :rolleyes:
But there is really little reason to try and have lacerate up on trash mobs. If they are going to live for more than 10s, yes, otherwise no. Every lacerate you use is a GCD that could've been spent on swipe, which is the only way you will keep 5+ mobs on you. If a dps is focus firing a specific target (e.g. about to peel), tab to it - or if you use a mod that shows you aggro via nameplates (TidyPlates/Threat plates, i swear best tanking addon i've downloaded ever), and [taunt]/maul/mangle/FFF it, keep spamming swipe and tab to other ones to keep maul rotated around. Lacerate is good for mobs that will be up for some time, to both proc the 264 idol if you have it and get some bonus maul dmg in there. But for most trash (e.g. ICC) I hardly ever bother with lacerate, except the token one or two for idol procs.

speaking of the 264 idol - it is much better for few or single target fights, but is inconvenient for said trash because of the reliance on lacerate/rake ticks. I'd def get it though, maybe after 4pc and belt/cloak.

I'm not so sure the magic meta is all that useful tbh. For example: Sindragosa will frost breath you for 63k (with 10 or stacks of buffet on, consider a case where the OT is slow in getting his debuff off or dps screwed up on the ice block etc.). 2% of 63k is only around 1200 dmg reduction. Barkskin (20%) is about 12k reduction in contrast, and enrage (12%) is another 6k in addition. QED, the meta reduction is pallsy in comparison to using actual cooldowns. If anything I would even consider a couple polar pieces for this fight if it comes down to it; ideally this fight is won by bringing smart dps and/or dk tanks (wtf nerf AMS :p).

aya90
04-28-2010, 04:39 AM
I dont get it somehow about the rotations

Someone please direct me to a rotation quote ?

or a MAcro contains the Cast sequence ?

geeksbsmrt
05-14-2010, 06:15 AM
Rotations for what? A single mob/boss I like FFF, Charge w/ Maul, Mangle, Lac, Lac, Mangle, Lac, Lac, Lac, Mangle, FFF (keep maul queued with more than 40 rage during this whole time). At this point it is much like kitty, a priority system, Keep Lacerate at 5 stacks, keep Mangle on CD, keep FFF on CD, again keep Maul queued with more than 40 rage. For trash I charge and spam swipe. If one is going to run off tab to it, queue a Maul, then Mangle, FFF, queue another Maul and continue swiping.

Please keep in mind this is how I like to run and some may disagree. If someone here has an idea on how I could improve this I would love the inut as every once in a while when I am grouped with someone who outgears me (i.e. a 6.2k GS mage) I have some trouble holding all mobs on trash pulls.

Halrloprillalar
05-17-2010, 10:44 AM
Rotations for what? A single mob/boss I like FFF, Charge w/ Maul, Mangle, Lac, Lac, Mangle, Lac, Lac, Lac, Mangle, FFF (keep maul queued with more than 40 rage during this whole time). At this point it is much like kitty, a priority system, Keep Lacerate at 5 stacks, keep Mangle on CD, keep FFF on CD, again keep Maul queued with more than 40 rage. For trash I charge and spam swipe. If one is going to run off tab to it, queue a Maul, then Mangle, FFF, queue another Maul and continue swiping.

Please keep in mind this is how I like to run and some may disagree. If someone here has an idea on how I could improve this I would love the inut as every once in a while when I am grouped with someone who outgears me (i.e. a 6.2k GS mage) I have some trouble holding all mobs on trash pulls.

if you are having rage-gen issues, put on some cat gear. geared dps will often pull off anyway, especially if they don't give any delay for swipes to land. In the case of aoe packs i tend to try and fixate on the melee since they are more likely to one/two-shot a dps than a loose caster. Either way a dead dps only ever has themselves to blame if they peel off you and die.


P.S. try to get your 4pc asap and drop 2 points in furor and one in Primal Precision to get 3/3 KotJ. Use it as a 'win' button just before large swipe packs.

kungfugrip
07-25-2010, 03:14 AM
this has been my bible, lol

vincebyron
09-03-2010, 12:33 PM
imp LOTP is a must, again ignoring my previous advice. It has not only saved my life so many times, but even in heroics i can agro 2 packs get a shield and a renew, and my priest can go run away and mine that vein back down the hall for 10 or so seconds while i hit barkskin.

I tried and tried, but I cannot figure out what LOTP is. Little help with that one.

Kazeyonoma
09-03-2010, 03:50 PM
Leader of the Pack.

joe1010011010
09-07-2010, 05:25 AM
since every "tank" cape, ring, and some 2-H weps we might use have strength, what does Str work out to in feral form? 2AP?

Tygara
09-07-2010, 07:46 AM
Just kind of curious on peoples' thoughts on King of the Jungle + 4piece bonus. Looking at Darksend's math on how little dmg KotJ adds(less than 1% even if your hitting enrage at exactly the 60 cd mark), it still seems like it would help with a small threat boost at the very start of a boss encounter.

Gutfang
09-08-2010, 09:42 AM
since every "tank" cape, ring, and some 2-H weps we might use have strength, what does Str work out to in feral form? 2AP?

As of 3.3.2. I believe these are still accurate. Credit to Alamo.

Strength – provides attack power
1 Str = 2.37864 AP (2.616504 AP) (Cat)
1 Str = 2.1624 AP (2.37864 AP) (Bear)
1 Str = 2.292144 AP (2.5213584 AP) (Bear with PotP)

Agility – Main tanking avoidance stat. We are in love with you.
1 Agi = 1.18932 AP (1.308252 AP) (Cat only)
1 Agi = 0.0129744% (0.01427184%) Crit
1 Agi = 0.0225641% (0.0248206%) Dodge
1 Agi = 2.1624 (2.37864) Armor

77.075 (70.068) Agi = 1% Crit
44.318 (40.289)Agi = 1% Dodge

Stamina – Provides health, a major tanking stat.
1 Sta = 10.812 (11.8932) Health (Cat)
1 Sta = 14.8665 (16.35315) Health (Bear)

Intellect – Practically useless for tanking.
1 Int = 19.4616 (21.40776) Mana
1 Int = 0.00778464% (0.0085631%) Spell Crit

125.458 (116.780) Int = 1% Spell Crit

Ragefury
11-28-2010, 03:41 AM
Strength is very undesirable stat since patch 4.0 as Agility gives same attack power to bears and goodies like crit/dodge (no longer increase Armor). General consensus is that apart from stamina Agi is the main both defensive and offensive stat for bears, followed by crit (defensive value of crit is more Savage Defense uptime)

So with new mechanics, you are just fine tanking with "dps" items with agility and avoid any "tank" cape, ring and weap. Some dodge rating can be added via reforging

Thorino
12-02-2010, 06:03 AM
Hey there. I recently returned to WoW to prepare myself for Cata, and found myself losing every instance run. Why? Cause with Swipe practically removed i have no aoe and it's really hard to keep more than 4 mobs on me at same time.
Can anyone post new tread regarding new Cataclysm Feral tank combat mechanics or give some advice? Anything would be helpful for this is madness.

Ragefury
12-02-2010, 01:09 PM
We all have same problem mate, guess we got to wait for our 2nd AoE threat, Trash, till lvl83 while other tanks got 2 of them already. Its on the same CD as swipe so there can be sort of rotation of those, while single targeting stuff.

For now I recommed glyphing Maul and using Berserk/Mangle on when you can. You will have hard time with triggerhappy kiddos overgered from running heroics 24/7

lucero
12-14-2010, 07:58 AM
In WotLK, the talent tree was set up in such a way that you really had to choose one or the other, but I ran as a hybrid through all of TBC, and it's looking like it might be possible again with the new talent tree. I'd like to get some more input.

Here's a sample talent build that has both crucial cat and bear talents:

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZfbGfRu0zrskMcz

There is maneuverability here too. You could add a point to BitW and remove one from Carnage. I'm still toying around with whether I even want Pulverize or not. I'm not having any threat issues so far without it and Savage Defense is always up right after it's knocked off anyhow. Sure, it has its benefits, but it looks like it might have been added more to fill in our rotation than anything else due to all the added CDs. Lacerate is the only move not on a CD, so they add pulverize to clear those stacks so you aren't just refreshing lacerate each application. Kinda lame, in my opinion.

You could potentially not take Master Shapeshifter, which would allow you to fill either BitW or Carnage, plus take either a reduced stun build with Brutal Impact or fill Primal Madness. While Master Shapeshifter is down to 3 points from 5, you still have to completely waste two points (natural shapeshifter prereq) to obtain it. Can they be better spent?

Is anyone else toying around with hybrid builds? What have you found thus far?

Oh, and a brief response to the comment about lack of aoe threat until thrash...the new content was also designed with the intent of signifying a return to crowd-control. Theoretically, you shouldn't be aoe tanking near as much. When you're dealing with pulls of 5 and 6 where 3-4 should be CCed, you've got lots of options for getting aggro on the remaining 2-3. Feral charge/FFF one, switch targets, mangle a second, then switch and taunt another. Then once all three are rounded up, swipe, maul, etc. Oh, and we're druids so there's always a personal favorite of mine...cast some hots on yourself and open with moonfire (remember when there was no feral faerie fire???) before you go into the above pull. Now you've got some healer aggro as well, plus bought the healer a few seconds before they start generating aggro themselves.

WastedSpace
12-20-2010, 10:29 AM
True CC is needed for trash, but there is now a lot more boss fights that have a ton of adds that tanks need to pickup. The fact that most the time when tanking I am out of rage so can't swipe or the swipe and thrash are on a cooldown leaves our only AoE is our Taunt that has a 1 minute cooldown. With all the DPS and everyone having to move a lot when adds are out makes getting aggro on the 10-15 adds a pain for melee tanks.

I am also stunned they took away bash as a method of interrupt case in point Baron Ashbury in H SFK now our Skull Bash 1 minute cooldown is not up enough for us to a reliable interrupt. I had planned for my Skull bash scheduled for Asphixiate, but it is not up for each one only every other.

And if doing it randomly you may not have enough interrupts to even do the boss at all.



With the cooldowns on Swipe and Thrash I am having issues keeping threat off the healer ( Hall of Origination and last boss in Throne of Tides examples) when tanking a big group of 5-8 while kiting, and especially Pally healers.

Fendi
12-23-2010, 12:04 PM
I have noticed a severe lack of Cata Druid love on the forums so far, so I figured I would post at least a spec and some "this is what I'm doing" tips.

First, here is a little background:
- Here is my armory profile: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/earthen-ring/fendicano/simple. Check that if you would like to see my current tank spec and gear.
- At the time of this post, no, I am not 85
- No, my gear is not tweaked out. I'm tanking in greens and a few blues, nothing special.
- I am not claiming to be super leet or that I know everything. This is just what I am doing currently and it has worked for me.
- If you are super leet, this is probably not for you since you have already figured this out in your infinite awesomeness.
- I have been instancing since 83 with guildies who have already hit 85 and I have no issues with keeping aggro/threat. Again, this is what works for me. If you are reading this, you probably are seeking help and it can't hurt to try this. If it doesn't work for you, my apologies, at least you gave it a try.

Things I'm a little iffy on:
- Pulverize: No longer iffy. This is required for tanking any Cata heroics as bear.
- I will probably be changing to this spec soon since I find I don't shift out a lot and Brutal Impact feels more right considering the need for interrupts in Cata instances: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZdrGfRubdMczMcz:0rqzwZMmz
- Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration: I can see where it may be a lot more useful later. In my current situation, I find that if I am low enough on health to need FR, the healer is low on mana and +30% of 0 is no help at all.

Questions I've heard (from other bears):
Q: How am I supposed to hold multi-mob aggro now?
A: First off, mark your targets, at LEAST mark the one you want people killing. Assign the Skull mark to a button so that you can easily switch it when your current Skull dies. I am using the following rotation for AoE aggro on trash. Thrash > Swipe > Demo Shout > Mangle (on Skull) > Fill in the the cooldown gaps with tab > Lacerate (or Mangle if you have a free one up). Keep thrash up as often as possible. Swipe seems to be less important since Blizz nerfed the damage. Maul if you need something to dump rage, but I tend to use it sparingly. Try and get at least one Lacerate stack on as many mobs as you can. I've noticed that, on groups of 3 or more, I almost always have a free Mangle from Berserk.

Q: How do I hold aggro on single targets?
A: I'm sorry, what? Okay...I'll explain it anyways. I generally start off with front loading as much aggro as possible. If I'm starting with no rage, I will pop out and hit Thorns before starting. Pop Enrage (if <60 rage) > Pop Barkskin (if Enrage was popped, to negate damage increase from Enrage) > Faerie Fire > Feral Charge > Maul > Mangle > Demo Roar > Lacerate x3 > Pulverize. Mangle every time it comes off cooldown (from Berserk or normally, doesn't matter), other than that, I hit whatever comes off of cooldown and refresh any debuffs that fall off. If I find I have extra rage and nothing to do with it (which is rare), I may throw in a swipe for S's and G's or refresh Demo Roar if it will fall off soon.

Q: How do I deal with casters?
A: Yeah, I know...they suck. Hopefully you have some CC that can help you out with the casters until you get the melee down. If you have to just deal with it, do whatever you can to get them away from the CC. If there is no CC, just tank all mobs on the caster and DPS the caster down first.

Q: Demoralizing Roar...really? Why?
A: Because I love my healers, that's why. Every healer I've talked to has stated that they are having issues with mana in Cata. Anything I can do to help my healer, I do to help my healer.

Q: Thrash on a single target? Huh?
A: Without Pulverize, I find that I have an extra GCD to spare here and there. It is a decent bleed and fills the slot.

Q: Why don't you use Faerie Fire in your AoE rotation?
A: Because I don't have time and there are better buttons to hit (in my opinion). I may pull my Skull target with it, but that is generally only out of convenience.

Q: Why don't you use Pulverize?
A: In the original post of this information, I said Pulverize was garbage. I was wrong (again with the "not leet" thing). Pulverize is very useful in keeping up Savage Defense. It is the equivalent of adding 9% block for a warrior or pally.

Q: I don't have Thrash yet, what do I do?
A: Cry...then level. Aside from BRC, I found I had a lot of problems tanking larger groups until I had Thrash. Now it is a cakewalk.

Q: You are a noob! You aren't doing XXXX.
A: First off, that isn't a question. Second, I figured all this out on my own. I may be missing something, it may be something huge. Third, where is your post trying to help people out? I figure that even a starting post to get discussion going is worth more than nothing. (This has been proven by the fact that I wasn't using Pulverize and I now am using it.

Q: Why did you misspell xxxx or have grammar error yyyy?
A: I am not perfect. I suppose now that Trolls can be druids too, I should expect to find a few in this thread.

Q: Why didn't you make this a new thread?
A: Because I do not have permissions to do so. If a mod would like to move this to its own thread, that would be helpful and wonderful.

EDITS:
- Now lvl 85. Spec reflects that
- Pulverize is necessary and not, in fact worthless or situationally useful.

Bahn
12-29-2010, 01:16 PM
Nice post Fendi,

I love pulverize of course, i am only level 70, but I have found that pulverize just makes me giggle a little inside when I use it!

Kilikus
12-30-2010, 05:31 PM
@Fendi - Pulverize is a great threat increase, as you only use it when your Pulverize buff is expiring within, say, 3-4 seconds. The extra 9% crit that it grants by consuming 3 stacks of Lacerate is a great addition to the already amazing threat that Feral tanks can produce. My general use of Pulverize is usually (Single target mind you): Charge + FFF, Mangle, Pulverize (for immediate 3% crit increase), Lacerate x1, Thrash, Demo Roar, FFF (I've got mine talented once, so it stacks 2x per FFF), Lacerate 2x, Pulverize (to increase from 3% to 9%), then the usual threat rotation of Mangle on CD and proc, Thrash always on CD, Demo Roar always up, and Lacerate at 3 stacks, while maintaining the pulverize buff. I hope the Pulverize buff grows on you as it has for me.

@WastedSpace - If you take the time to review the Feral tree again, you'll notice that Brutal Impact 2/2 makes your Bash a 50 second CD, and your Skull Bash a 10 second CD, giving you your very own reliable interrupt. Skull Bash is so wonderful since Bliz kept it off the GCD.

@ Those having issues with AE Threat - Make sure to mark your targets. Generally, casters die first, since we have poor avoidance, since our only method of avoiding incoming damage is misses, dodges, and SD proc absorbs, in which Mastery increases the amount absorbed. Here's a pretty easy to maintain AE threat rotation that I have personally found to be very effective. Thrash and Swipe are both on a 6 second CD, and Mangle is on a 8 second CD. What does this mean to you? Start the pull by initiating with Feral Charge, along with a FFF in transit. Follow this up with a Thrash, as it generates more threat than Swipe, and it also leaves a bleed on all the targets it hits. Getting the bleed on the targets gives threat faster. Swipe is next, followed with a Mangle on the main target. If your DPS are smart and are focusing the kill target, then you would Lacerate once. Now your Thrash is coming off CD, so hit that next. Follow up with a Swipe and a Mangle, then switch to the next kill target.
This allows you to build threat on all the targets around you, while maintaining managable threat on the main kill target.

If you are running into the issue of breaking CCs while maintaining this AE threat rotation, let your CCers initiate the combat by using their CCs, and you grabbing immediate attention, NOT THREAT, on the rest of the active targets with a FFF. DO NOT CHARGE. You want to pull the mobile targets away from your CCd targets. This allows your CCs to stay immobilized, and the active ones to be subject to the above threat rotations.

Adjust these to your playstyle, and you won't have issues holding AE threat. For those who are not 83 yet, and actively tanking instances, just remember to tab target things, which allows you to generate AE threat, just the hard way. ;)

Fendi
01-03-2011, 12:55 PM
Thanks for the advice Kilikus. My problem with Pulverize is partially talent points. Given others that I feel are more useful, I can't find a point to drop late enough in the tree to pick it up. Given that Pulv feels situationally useful (boss fights) and I don't have any problem with boss encounter threat, I can't justify taking the point from another talent and putting it in Pulv.

I'm not shooting it down for you, others, or even myself, that is just my perspective. I would also be curious to see the talents/glyphs you are using, if you don't mind posting them.

Bovinity
01-04-2011, 05:25 PM
Given that Pulv feels situationally useful (boss fights) and I don't have any problem with boss encounter threat, I can't justify taking the point from another talent and putting it in Pulv.

It's more than just threat, that 9% has a significant effect on Savage Defense uptime.

In fact, I'd really say that threat is the least of the concerns with Pulverize. Practically an afterthought.


Generally, casters die first, since we have poor avoidance, since our only method of avoiding incoming damage is misses, dodges, and SD proc absorbs,

Given equivalently geared characters, bears should have more actual avoidance than other tanks. The gap is actually quite significant. It has been a common misconception since TBC that because Bears don't have parry we must have less avoidance for some reason.

I assume you were referring to avoidance from magical damage in your comment, but I figured I'd clarify that one tidbit that always irks me, and the terminology used might confuse people.

Fendi
01-06-2011, 12:18 PM
Thanks Bovinity. I hadn't thought of it that way. Assuming 9% crit is a 9% increase Savage Defense uptime, that is pretty significant. I'd still be interested in seeing someone's spec including Pulv though.

Ragefury
01-08-2011, 05:15 AM
Fendi has got nice post, tho i diagree with "no pulverize" part (and im adult so I can express my opinion without the "omgnoob" bit). Pulverize value is in Savage Defense uptime, unless you do heroic raids, threat is not an issue at all in Cata. I personally keep it up mostly on bosses, simply when there is time to do so. Please note the only value of Lacerate is in Berserk proc, bleed was nerfed to ground and its pretty much spammable threat move now, so ignore the bleed and apply one stack after each Pulverize to keep the proc.

As far as i have seen, skull bash talented to 10sec is mandatory and its used all the time.

I have got few advices for the AoE threat too. 1st of all, dont try AoE tanking on your tier level, mobs will tear you apart. Almost all classes have got CC now (I regulary use my own roots on pull, or Hibernate in Grim Batol) so the real art is in positioning and holding threat on 2-3 mobs without breaking CC. Thrash is high aggro move, almost twice as Lacerate application, swipe on same CD. Personally I use glyph of maul as well and have no trouble holding threat as long as targets are marked and dps doesnt pick different mob each. For nasty or even slightly more difficult mob packs burn your Berserk, its 3min cooldown so you can use it on every even pack. Its not just win aggro, but win dps as well, so the mobs go down faster.

Same deal with survival cooldowns, you got 3 + some trinket, use one whenever fighting more mobs to make sure things go smooth

Bovinity
01-08-2011, 12:19 PM
Thanks Bovinity. I hadn't thought of it that way. Assuming 9% crit is a 9% increase Savage Defense uptime, that is pretty significant. I'd still be interested in seeing someone's spec including Pulv though.

The numbers shift based on your current Crit percentage, hit/exp, probably even haste...but in my gear for example, the 9% Pulverize crit is something close to 7.5% increase in Savage Defense uptime.

As for the spec, I believe I'm using: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZfMGbkubzrckMcu:0rqzwZMmz

Fendi
01-10-2011, 10:50 AM
Rebirth Glyph
I would also like to add one other little nugget of wisdom. I have found Glyph of Rebirth to be very awesome in my recent travels. Yes, even as the tank. Being as how there are only 2 bear glyphs worth having (maul and faerie fire), we have an empty slot anyways. Thorns is almost always off of CD when you do your next pull, so that would be a wasted glyph. You could go with the Frenzied Regen glyph, but if your healer is out of mana, that is pretty useless and, in the current world I play in, many healers are having problems with mana. I picked the Rebirth Glyph thinking it would be used very infrequently, but I have found that, as I start on heroics, that is not the case.

So, when do I find time to Rebirth people as a tank?
Many bosses in Cata have more than one phase and there is a bit of downtime in between them. If someone bites the dust early, it can easily mean a wipe, even if it isn't the healer. Pop out of bear with Rebirth and spam your Bear button to get back as quickly as possible.

This boss has no phase and my healer is chewing gravel on the floor. What now?
Question is, can you make it without your healer? Not "Can you maybe make it?"...Can you really make it? If not, it is worth the chance to Rebirth your healer while the boss is smacking you around. Even in caster form, I have around 20% dodge. And, in most cases, I can take one hit in caster form anyhow. Wait until the boss has just hit you, then Rebirth and spam the bear button. If you are lucky (or fast), you will make it before the next swing. Sometimes, it is even worth doing this on your DPS if the bite it early enough and the DPS will be needed (ie: heroics).

Kilikus
01-11-2011, 12:31 PM
I'd still be interested in seeing someone's spec including Pulv though.

My Current Bear Spec (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/hellscream/m%C3%A5ulg%C3%A5r/talent/secondary)

Above is my current tanking spec, with Pulverize included. In my last post, I had stated that Pulverize gives you a 3% buff even when it doesn't consume a lacerate tick. That was incorrect, as you have to consume a lacerate tick in order to gain the buff that it grants. 3% per stack of lacerate consumed.

jere
04-14-2011, 04:16 PM
I've actually been having trouble with threat on my druid in single target. I definitely seen a lot less threat than I do on my other tanks (pally and warrior). I think it has something to do with my rotation:

Mangle > Pulverize (if expiring) > Lacerate

I make sure to get up Demo Roar and Faerie Fire off the bat and maintain them if they are about to fall off. I am using Maul whenever I have about 65+ rage as well.

I am wondering if maybe I should be using Faerie Fire on cooldown as the post on the previous page suggests, but in the back of my head I thought I remembered Faerie Fire being inferior to Lacerate threat at one point (I could be smoking something though).

I's there something else I should be doing?

Edit: As a side note, I do tend to try to gem with hybrids (stamina + agility), should I just being go full agility gems where possible?

AbbyGale
06-08-2011, 09:47 PM
Feral Tank Needs Help
not shure what is wrong with my spec. but im geting hit realy hard. does not seem like im dodgeing the swings. im also losing ability to hold agro my Current Spec (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/abbygale/talent/primary) . i had reforged my gear not even shure if i'v refoged it corectly to the specs i need as a feral tank.
i'v also searched online to find out what cap levels i need and not able to find them. all i know is iv used darksend wolk guide it worked awsome if i can please get some help to be come a better player that would be awsome thank . you

Shiftymojo
06-08-2011, 11:49 PM
As a side note, I do tend to try to gem with hybrids (stamina + agility), should I just being go full agility gems where possible?

Keep spamming FF as part of your rotation. That free threat right there. Lac uses rage and FF is free :D. I just macro it with maul works well for me.

With gems its I'd say 30%+ dodge is a must as far as I know, from there I drop a mix of Stamina and Agility and Agility and Dodge gems. If you have a red socket stick the Delicate Inferno Ruby in it always.

@AbbyGale you dodge seems a little low I really wouldn't worry about hit and exp cap too much and just go all out dodge. You might want to farm the armor trinket from VP heroic too drops off last boss.

Kilikus
06-12-2011, 04:14 PM
@Shiftmojo: While FFF may be rage-free threat, it still requires the use of a GCD (While FFF's GCD is only 1 second, unlike everything else's 1.5 second). TPGCD, if you will, at higher gear levels tends to point towards Lacerate spamming, instead of hitting FFF on CD.

You should also be able to get 30% dodge without gemming, only through reforging. The gemming is there for that added bonus (And some extra AP/Crit for you as well), though you should never throw in a +dodge gem. The majority of your green/purple gems should be Mastery/Stam and/or Agility/Stam

My current gemming philosophy looks as such:
Red: Delicate Inferno Ruby (Delicate Chimaera's Eye for JCs)
Yellow: Adept Ember Topaz
Blue: Puissant Dream Emerald or Shifting Demonseye

@AbbyGale: You should not be reforging into Hit/Expertise. In fact, these are the first two stats that you want to reforge AWAY. All of your reforges should be going into Dodge. Also, your spec should drop Nurturing Instinct, as it only applies to you while you are in cat form. You can place one point into Stampede, for a little bit of haste at the start of a fight/you moving back to a mob/boss. It helps out with rage generation, making it a little more plentiful, allowing you to Maul a little more often. The last point you need to place is to finish off 3/3 in Fury Swipes. Fury swipes is a rage free, big hitting ability. It hits as hard as a Mangle. It is a random proc on auto-attack, and costs 0 rage, does not affect your GCD's at all. This ability, you can safely call, free threat.
Reforging your gear, you want to maintain high Crit and Mastery, while reforging everything else into dodge. If the piece is nothing but crit and mastery, I personally always choose crit, unless the amount of dodge rating gained by choosing mastery would be 150% of the amount that reforging crit into dodge would be.

@jere: I tend to find myself hitting Thrash often, you should too. Has great upfront damage (I've seen a 8k crit on the initial hit, which is more threat than a lacerate), and the ticks are extra threat while you mangle/lacerate away at the target. It's also extra DPS that you are doing, helping the fight end sooner. (Thrash is also the first button you should be hitting when pulling an AE pack.)

If there's anything I failed to address, let me know.