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Wartank
10-11-2008, 10:52 PM
Just a quick one, wanting to hear peoples thoughts on:

A guild run in say Kara with no real loot system in place, who should get priority over gear

A Main's off spec or an Alt's main spec

The Alt obviously believes they can put the item to better use being main spec, the Main thinks how can i ever build an off spec set when theres always alts to be geared up.

If you gave priority to the Main spec does this include 2 off specs, such resto and balance in feral druids case? Or limit them to one main off spec if that makes any sense lol.

Silentslayer
10-11-2008, 11:00 PM
I can see much conflict generated by this, lol.

Meeks
10-11-2008, 11:01 PM
Personally in kara I would just have both of them roll.

marketfresh
10-11-2008, 11:25 PM
my guild always does alt main spec before main offspec. however, most of our mains get filled up on offspec gear in t6 content so most kara off spec gear isnt an issue anyway, but when it is, alts main spec gets first dibs.

Parah
10-11-2008, 11:27 PM
For kara at this point in BC, I'd have them just both roll.

Silentslayer
10-12-2008, 12:17 AM
There wont be a problem most the time if people just dont get greedy with the loot.

orcstar
10-12-2008, 01:20 AM
We have people declare a mainspec at the start of the run, that's the spec they can roll on.

Krashtork
10-12-2008, 02:11 AM
Alt mainspec has prio. It's just the way it's always been for me.

Nicki
10-12-2008, 02:22 AM
Keep it civil.

A druid who never specs boomkin wont roll on boomkin gear etc. If people want to roll let them roll. Having an decent geared offspec allowed me to get into sunwell!!!(from mid BT) Having decent geared alts gets me nothing=\

orcstar
10-12-2008, 03:04 AM
Well this discussion can go on and on, just don't expect people who have everything to carry alts through a dungeon "when there's nothing in it" for them. Other mains however which helped you get the dungeon on farm is an entirely different story.

(And I would go as far as to say for tanks, dps gear is like half mainspec already. Especially in 25 men content, different fights require a different number of tanks so most tanks should have a dps (or for pala healing) set to avoid the hassle of going into every other fight with a different raid setup.)

(edit)
I should have pointed this a bit different. But bringing alts in an equation can throw off what you can expect. I'll make an example. Zul'Jin drops Berserker's Call. I would really like to have it on my tank. But it's a dps trinket. So I pass it to the rogue, pass it to the enhancement shaman and pass it to the hunter.Fine you think now all physical dps has the trinket now I at least get a chance to get it and roll against other offspecs. But hey what happens here, mr shaman mr hunter and mr rogue are happy to give up their spot for other people because they have what they need. It even goes so far they bring in people just for Zul'Jin. What I expected was a chance for the trinket after the other mainspecs got it. What I got was a flood of mainspecs which never ended, giving me no chance at all for the trinket.
(/edit)

tobarstep
10-12-2008, 06:16 AM
Yeah, I'd go with the alt mainspec first. Main offspec... that's why Kara gives badges.

Orcstar, in the situation you give, you simply let people know ahead of time. "Hey, guys, if X drops, I'm rolling on it".

Darksend
10-12-2008, 07:48 AM
see as a feral druid i opposed to this simply because an alt rogue who hit 70 2 days ago is not going to come in on Zul'jin and take my Berserkers Call that i will use in sunwell simply because i tanked the run.

that aside, it should always be main > alt no matter what spec it is. The rare exceptions being people like me who have not respeced to balance or resto in 6 months.

one thing also is that healing is being changed to spellpower so "off-set" with healing classes has very little meaning anymore. an item with crit and spellpower drops, a holy priest takes it as a "main spec healing upgrade" even though it is clearly for his DPS set. Or say nightbane drops his staff, a warlock takes it because life tap is now based off spirit instead of spellpower.

This is indeed a very grey area, but i will always feel that main > alt reguardless of if it is an offspec. My priest was full time holy, but healing gear never dropped and my shadow set was so good that when we lost some priests i got to raid BT on bosses where my druid was not needed to tank. Offspec means nothing, its relative, there is a trainer 50G away at all times.

Machus
10-12-2008, 08:09 AM
If loot is an issue, set up some rules beforehand. If you outgear Kara generally and are bringing alts/farming badges, then with common sense and considerate players it's not a big deal. If someone needs a specific item that they "miss", agree on that at the start of the run.

The general etiquette, though, is those present in the raid roll for the role that they came to do. If they tank, they roll tank loot. If they DPS, even with the wrong spec, they roll on DPS loot. And so on. If nobody qualifies, there's a general "off specs" roll so as not to waste the item.

Machus
10-12-2008, 08:16 AM
Another solid piece of advice is that, if you are the player who's new to the instance and has many upgrades to get from it, please be considerate and pass some exceptional or rare item to the guy who outgears the instance and still needs it.

They are making a major contribution to your success so they deserve it, and it's also one of their last chances to get the item before moving on to higher-level content. You on the other hand will have many more runs ahead of you in that instance.

Kamani
10-12-2008, 08:19 AM
In my opinion it shouldn't be based on the title of the character, rather the priority to the player.

IE me. I don't have an alt. 4 years in this game and I haven't had anything other then a main.

So offspec is second priority to me.

Then we have Joe Smith. He plays a resto Druid as his main. He has some feral gear on the side. He also has a 70 Warlock and 70 Warrior.

If my Warrior is tanking Kara and he brings his Warrior to DPS, DPS loot should prioritize to me.

Darksend
10-12-2008, 08:22 AM
The general etiquette, though, is those present in the raid roll for the role that they came to do. If they tank, they roll tank loot. If they DPS, even with the wrong spec, they roll on DPS loot. And so on. If nobody qualifies, there's a general "off specs" roll so as not to waste the item.

I still disagree because Paladins, shaman, and priests transcend specs. Other classes do to but these more than most. I know a paladin who is every week (paid for by his guild of course) prot at kalecgos ret on brut prot on felmyst holy on twins prot on muru then ret again on KJ. Chain heal is amazing on some fights such as najentus mother and when you get to twins its to the point where you NEED 4-5 resto shaman when progressing on them, yet you need to run 2 enh shaman for the 2 melee groups on brut to beat his enrage timer.

This may seem off topic because sunwell is so far away from kara but i promise i have a point.

We brought alt shaman to twins on our 1st kill in pre-kara 5 man blues and some kara epics. And he outhealed the resto druid in 8/8 t6 simply because of the mechanic of the fight. The enh shaman got sat out because he had no resto gear because he had not been allowed to bid on it in his old guild even in kara and ZA because it was his offspec and alt resto shaman got it over him.

Taelas
10-12-2008, 08:27 AM
Main spec before off-spec, main toons before alts.

Off spec main ~ main spec alt. Just roll.

orcstar
10-12-2008, 09:14 AM
On our transition from Karazhan to 25 men raiding we had a lot of work to do getting enough people geared, I made a lot of kara parties to gear up guildies so we would have an easier time in SSC.

Last thing I always said was: "we roll on things but I'm the evil lootmaster and reserve the right to ignore the roll" never had any drama :P:P

Lizana
10-12-2008, 11:47 AM
As someone with 4 raiding 70's, My main sits out to allow others to be able to have a raid spot. So by that logic i should not be able to roll for my "alts" gear over someone with only one 70 who wants to do something different... thats just BS.

The char you signed up for the raid on and are attending on for that night is your "Main" and your prefered spec that your currently raiding as is your "Main spec". In Wrath my guild is dealing with duel specs by going by what your glyphed for and what the guild recognizes your char as ( ie your a dps warrior that has a tank spec for off tanking - your a DPS warrior for loot priorities)

Thats why we just use a dkp system... those willing to bid the most get the item

Wartank
10-12-2008, 06:09 PM
Judging from the replies its little wonder i was left scratching my head on this one when asked for a ruling. We are a guild formed mainly from people that started late, so this issue hadnt really raised its head before. Generally it was just Mains main spec over Alts main spec roll for the rest like many suggest here. But lately with more and more alts pushing up some players are feeling disgruntled at their lack of a ability to gain offspec items.

I was asked for a ruling on this by 2 guildies, so nothing to do with myself. But i can use myself an example of how i can understand some players frustrations. I just got my T4 offspec helm last night after being MT and RL from the beginning. We took a group that had never been in kara before and expanded into a 25 man raid guild we are today which is just hitting MH now. Having run many heroics/ kara/gruul/mags to help gear people up that ive never had time for an alt untill the last few weeks (he's still only lvl63). With all badge gear, most offspec badge gear + around 500 extras its only now i manage to get the helm. TBH its never bothered me, but i can understand how it might bother others.

Lizana, ive seen a few people just bring their main to raid nights then spend the rest of their time leveling alts. Get them to 70, get them in kara/ZA/Gruuls/Mags which we do on non core nights (hense no offical loot system) and go back to leveling. Where as others will be out running heroics on their mains, making a real effort to make sure their main is in the best possible condition for raiding or simply helping guildies. Plus any item upgrade we can get for someones main raiding toon helps everyone in the raid, for these reasons, in our guild at least, Main will always have priotity over an alt for main spec items.

Lizana
10-12-2008, 10:27 PM
Lizana, ive seen a few people just bring their main to raid nights then spend the rest of their time leveling alts. Get them to 70, get them in kara/ZA/Gruuls/Mags which we do on non core nights (hense no offical loot system) and go back to leveling. Where as others will be out running heroics on their mains, making a real effort to make sure their main is in the best possible condition for raiding or simply helping guildies. Plus any item upgrade we can get for someones main raiding toon helps everyone in the raid, for these reasons, in our guild at least, Main will always have priotity over an alt for main spec items.

But what about people that level alts to become their main? My first char was a pally, i started to hate being a pally so i rolled a warrior. My warrior is now my main toon. I have also leveled a Shaman and a shadow priest, both to address needs that the guild needed. And i still have to bring in these chars on some fights for progression. For instance, ZA on dragonhawk boss, I have to log over to my pally every time for it, because i am the only one on with a pally tank. True its my "alt" But if i didnt bring the "alt" no one would get any loot. And yes, if your at the point that your still in greens and blues and can run heroics for gear. I dont want you in the raid in the first spot, i want you to have your char geared before you start your alt.

Andenthal
10-13-2008, 02:21 PM
...with no real loot system in place, who should get priority over gear


Didn't see too many people commenting on this part - more the "off spec main" vs "main spec alt" part of it, which I think is irrelevnant.

Loot with priority implies a loot system. If you say you have no real loot system in place, then the player with the larger /roll gets the loot.

Loot systems do not have to include DKP, or bidding or any of that more complicated stuff. If your guild decides that main characters get gear before alt characters - then that IS your loot system.

You can't say "We have no loot system, but you can not roll on that."

It's all or nothing
(IMO of course)

Fayre
10-13-2008, 06:37 PM
Yep Andenthal is right. There's always a loot system - and different guilds and different people will be 'used' to different defaults. Making it clear what is expected to happen with loot is the duty of the raid leader, and that's up to him (or the guild leadership) to sort out and enforce.

Wars
10-13-2008, 06:45 PM
After raiding in this game for 3+ years in about 9 different guilds, I have worked with every single loot system there is. From early DKP when people remembered came from Dragon Kill Points, to Loot council, to random /rolls, to zero sum dkp, to absolute sum dkp, to EGPG.

Personally it depends on the type of guild. If it is a progression guild where there are mostly just names and you don't know the faces(aka guilds that are there for progression, not friendship) you will more than likely see a form of DKP. This due to the fact that people are not to be trusted too closely with things most of us work so hard on. Master looter always as well.

With a tight-knit guild, which I am in atm, we use loot council as only people who are long time friends and in close proximity of one another are in there. We recruit people we trust. Also, master looter is great.

Suicide kings and EGPG, really in anonymity guilds mostly. Really in many alliance guilds from what I have seen. People who are looking for something that really really rewards those who contribute night-in and night-out.

Wartank
10-13-2008, 07:42 PM
Well yes i guess it is a loot system as such, but i meant we dont use our official loot system which is Ni Karma based. We raid 3 nights a week and atm thats only SSC, TK and MH. Many people would like a guild arranged kara, ZA, gruuls and mags runs on off nights to avoid the pugs. So yes to date our loot system on these runs has been main > alt.

Id prefer not to go a fully blown loot system for an off night event, but at the same token if the guild arranges such events its reasonable to expect the guild (a raiding/progression guild) gets some benifit which is looking after main toons first. We have geared up many a casual member this way who have since stepped up to become raiders as well as stengthen the raid by filling in the odd piece of missing gear for a raider.


But what about people that level alts to become their main?

The way we handle the above is we have raid spots open for certain classes. if you want to change classes then firstly get it up to standard and secondly wait until we need that class. We wont roatate out our usual warrior tank because our rogue decided he now wants to become a warrior tank. If and when that spot opens up then fine we'll look at it.