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Ciderhelm
10-06-2008, 12:16 AM
http://media.libsyn.com/media/ciderhelm/From_Patch_to_Wrath.mp3

This podcast is an overview of what you need to pay attention to and prepare for once 3.0 launches and up through the release of Wrath of the Lich King. This details the extensive changes for Protection Warriors and Paladins.

Duzzit
10-06-2008, 01:20 AM
spotted tanking...with spots lol.

Galushi
10-06-2008, 01:24 AM
Cider, you are correct about shield block. increases by +100% sbv pre modifers. Just tested it with my dps gear on beta.

593 SBV with Shield Mastery (130%)
456 SBV without (100%)
1049 SBV with SM and Shield Block (230%)

Darksend
10-06-2008, 03:50 AM
Thanks cider, i actually have most of the guide writen but because of the way things change (the notorious druid nerf patch early on in BC) i want to hold off on posting it till people start getting 80 on live and really see how things work. most of what i have done is the explainations of talents, listening various builds, talking about how builds will be very differnt simply because of 5 and 10 mans you wont always have a warrior or a DK for thunderclap/demo.

what i really need help with is the numbers, threat values, things like that. ive been talking to toskk (a very well know druid theorycrafter about trying to get him involved here) and hes gona help me when he has the time but hes usually pretty busy with his other projects. last time i spoke to him he was working on the 3.0 dps cycles and numbers and when he finishes with that hes going to start his level 80 tanking analysis so once hes done with that ill try to get him to post that stuff here as well.

Zelgius
10-06-2008, 07:28 AM
I don't consider myself overly serious but getting passed the beginning was very difficult for me.

Alent
10-06-2008, 08:06 AM
Cider. Passive unhittable?

Say it: "guaranteed block."

Ciderhelm
10-06-2008, 08:48 AM
Say it: "guaranteed block."
That's not accurate.

mero12513
10-06-2008, 09:09 AM
Unhittable is not accurate either: you can still be hit.

The combat log will read: Boss hits tank for 4000 damage (2000 blocked).

Lore
10-06-2008, 09:33 AM
Unhittable is not accurate either: you can still be hit.

The combat log will read: Boss hits tank for 4000 damage (2000 blocked).

Speaking from a mechanics perspective though, that's a block, not a hit :P

veneretio
10-06-2008, 09:33 AM
Unhittable is not accurate either: you can still be hit.

The combat log will read: Boss hits tank for 4000 damage (2000 blocked).
...

Let's be honest... that's a block.

Guaranteed Block doesn't make sense because you can have an attack dodged, parried or missed.

Unhittable makes logical sense.

Lore
10-06-2008, 09:35 AM
The only problem with "Unhittable" is that then we'll get tons of threads of people saying "I have 102.4% miss, dodge, parry, and block... and the boss hit me! EVERYTHING I HAVE BEEN TAUGHT IS A LIE"

jere
10-06-2008, 09:40 AM
Out of all the options, I think unhittable sounds like the best so far. From an attack table perspective, no hits are landed, which is what this applies to anyways. Even if we sometimes think of a block as a hit, the combat table differentiates between the two.

mero12513
10-06-2008, 09:44 AM
No matter what, we're still going to have to retrain the non-tank community about the terminology. If I were to tell my healer "I'm unhittable", he would promptly respond with "Bullshit, you get hit all the time".

adenosine
10-06-2008, 10:28 AM
On dual wield devastate, you mentioned this was not a good way to go about killing things. Could you give some clarification on this point?

Do you need to be pulling larger packs in order for the shield using style to be better, or does sword and board and revenge simply make it better than the 3% crit and whirlwind that one would get in berserker stance?

Related to this, in a fight where you are a pure dps role are you still going to be using a shield to dps or will the rage generation just not be there without incoming damage?

Ciderhelm
10-06-2008, 10:42 AM
On dual wield devastate, you mentioned this was not a good way to go about killing things. Could you give some clarification on this point?

Do you need to be pulling larger packs in order for the shield using style to be better, or does sword and board and revenge simply make it better than the 3% crit and whirlwind that one would get in berserker stance?

Related to this, in a fight where you are a pure dps role are you still going to be using a shield to dps or will the rage generation just not be there without incoming damage?
I was hoping to emphasize the point a little more clearly than I must have.

Rage generation with 1h/shield is not a restriction on your 1h/shield rotation. Sword and Board procs so often that it's not hard at all to have the rage.

This isn't scientific because I haven't run the math, but I'd wager that 1h/shield -- even when not tanking and not proccing revenge -- will be dealing significantly more single-target damage than DW Devastate. I can't say this for sure because Heroic Strike usage does factor into this.

Kossaks
10-06-2008, 10:47 AM
could use uncritable since its more specific

Stubbi
10-06-2008, 10:50 AM
Based on your podcast, does this make sense for 70 spec then building up the missing parry/dodge (deflection/anticipation talents) ?


WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents2.html?tal=00000000000000000000000000000030 50000000000000000000000000533012252030125203301133 21)


I think I grabbed everything there was to boost damage while ensuring enough rage intake with lower defenses.

I am still pretty puzzled about the value of Incite (3/3) vs Imp Heroic Strike (3/3) ... Guess I'll just have to see how much time I spend starved for rage.

Lore
10-06-2008, 10:51 AM
could use uncritable since its more specific

that's... something entirely different.

loquatious
10-06-2008, 11:14 AM
We are debating the term for the condition where we can block all (or damn near all) incoming damage so that the mobs are effictively unable to hurt us.

Uncrittable= wrong because they may be able to crit
Unhittable is wrong because they obviously hit.


The term you are all missing is "Nigh-Invulnerable" made famous by The Tick.

Obviously you can slam him through a brik wall but he will simply dust himself off and continue to battle for justice!

Taelas
10-06-2008, 11:25 AM
"Pushed hit off the attack table" >_>

Ciderhelm
10-06-2008, 11:25 AM
We are debating the term for the condition where we can block all (or damn near all) incoming damage so that the mobs are effictively unable to hurt us.

Uncrittable= wrong because they may be able to crit
Unhittable is wrong because they obviously hit.


The term you are all missing is "Nigh-Invulnerable" made famous by The Tick.

Obviously you can slam him through a brik wall but he will simply dust himself off and continue to battle for justice!
Avoidance is, technically, a form of damage reduction. However, we use Damage Reduction to specifically refer to the amount of damage reduced by Armor, because it allows us to speak more accurately about the subject matter.

The Combat Table is the reason we would use Passive Unhittable. For nearly four years, we've described a Miss, Dodge, Parry, Block, and Critical Strike as different than a Hit. So, yes, while you do take damage and are technically hit when Blocking, it is not inaccurate to refer to the process of clearing the Combat Table of Normal Hits as Passive Unhittable.

"Guaranteed Block" doesn't work in any logical way.

Hypatia
10-06-2008, 11:42 AM
"Ununblockable".

Lore
10-06-2008, 11:57 AM
Avoidance is, technically, a form of damage reduction. However, we use Damage Reduction to specifically refer to the amount of damage reduced by Armor, because it allows us to speak more accurately about the subject matter.

The Combat Table is the reason we would use Passive Unhittable. For nearly four years, we've described a Miss, Dodge, Parry, Block, and Critical Strike as different than a Hit. So, yes, while you do take damage and are technically hit when Blocking, it is not inaccurate to refer to the process of clearing the Combat Table of Normal Hits as Passive Unhittable.

"Guaranteed Block" doesn't work in any logical way.

It's not inaccurate, but it's also kind of confusing to Joe McAverage who hasn't been keeping up on theory for 4 years. At best I can see "unhittable" causing a lot of stupid arguments where someone who doesn't realize that blocks are not hits comes in and says "unhittable is impossible."

It doesn't particularly help that, for 2/4 tanks, "unhittable" means you take no melee damage at all (even though it shouldn't be possible for either to reach that state). In fact, in TBC, we used the same term to describe rogues and druids who had stacked so much avoidance that nothing would connect.

I like Norrath's suggestion - just say you pushed Hit off the attack table.

Ciderhelm
10-06-2008, 12:01 PM
It's not inaccurate, but it's also kind of confusing to Joe McAverage who hasn't been keeping up on theory for 4 years. At best I can see "unhittable" causing a lot of stupid arguments where someone who doesn't realize that blocks are not hits comes in and says "unhittable is impossible."

It doesn't particularly help that, for 2/4 tanks, "unhittable" means you take no melee damage at all (even though it shouldn't be possible for either to reach that state). In fact, in TBC, we used the same term to describe rogues and druids who had stacked so much avoidance that nothing would connect.

I like Norrath's suggestion - just say you pushed Hit off the attack table.

Should we not have used the term Passive Uncrushable because not everyone read up on their theory?

Long phrases don't replace good terminology. Describing it is helpful, but not every time we ever talk about it.

huggy77
10-06-2008, 12:01 PM
MORE PODCAST!!!!

Damn work for getting in the way of me listening to the tankspot podcast...

Bishoptwo
10-06-2008, 12:08 PM
-In reference to what "Passive Uncrushable" should now be called:

>Block

>Avoidance

Combine these and you get "Blockidance"

i.e. "I have 100 percent 'Blockidance' against all attacks"


.....yes I'm that bored =D

phaze
10-06-2008, 12:12 PM
"Ununblockable".
/cheer


'Guaranteed Block or Better'? ;) Still long, but related to previous incarnations, and describes the intent?

jere
10-06-2008, 12:18 PM
unthwackable!

Lore
10-06-2008, 12:19 PM
Should we not have used the term Passive Uncrushable because not everyone read up on their theory?

Long phrases don't replace good terminology. Describing it is helpful, but not every time we ever talk about it.

True. Passive uncrushable makes significantly more sense to someone who's not up on theory though; they might not understand why it works, but they know it means that you cannot be hit with a crushing blow and don't have to be actively doing anything to maintain it.

"Unhittable" is always going to sound like "I dodge and parry everything" to the uninformed.

Note that I'm not really putting forth a good alternative here, because I don't really have one. Just expressing concern.

Alent
10-06-2008, 01:03 PM
"guaranteed block" just conjures up the right mental image tho'.

And it's every bit as accurate as "unhittable" because you're addressing the same line of the combat table. in fact it states WHERE you become "unhittable". :p

Art
10-06-2008, 01:19 PM
Anyone suggesting replacing +18 sta to shield with toughened shield enchant for 3.0? Seems like it would have good synergy with shield slam and damage shield.

Kazeyonoma
10-06-2008, 01:35 PM
But it's not a guaranteed Block. You might Dodge, You might Parry, you might be missed. Those are neither blocks =T

Heartwood
10-06-2008, 01:56 PM
UUB (Ununblockable) -- It gets my vote ;)

But seriously, I do agree that 'unhittable' is misleading. The idea is that we can no longer take a hit that will not be mitigated. The trick is finding a word or compact phrase to get that across. A snazzy acronym would be tops.

Complete/Comprehensive Attack Mitigation (CAM) - All attacks will receive mitigation if not avoided.

Uninterrupted/Uninterruptable Mitigation (UM) - No interruption to mitigating incoming attacks that actually land.

Uninterrupted/Uninterruptable Blocking (UB) - Focuses on the fact that all physical attacks that are not avoided, will be blocked to some degree.

Those would be my two suggestions.

Lore
10-06-2008, 02:01 PM
Let's just call it Paladin.

"So are you a Paladin?" "no" "lol noob"

Kazeyonoma
10-06-2008, 02:03 PM
GAoBA, Guaranteed Avoided or Blocked Attack.

Kazeyonoma
10-06-2008, 02:03 PM
Let's just call it Paladin.

"So are you a Paladin?" "no" "lol noob"

*$(# You P******n. Get out of here. lol

Alent
10-06-2008, 02:04 PM
*sigh*

This thread is so Hit and Miss.

Girlie
10-06-2008, 02:05 PM
what's unhittable?

Lacunata
10-06-2008, 02:16 PM
MHN = Mitigated Hits or None!

veneretio
10-06-2008, 02:18 PM
/cheer


'Guaranteed Block or Better'? ;) Still long, but related to previous incarnations, and describes the intent?
Funny I was thinking of the phrase "Block or Better" just as I was about to post too.

BoB for short?

Are you BoB?

Yes, I think a BoB trend must begin. I'm in my BoB gear, are you?

Alent
10-06-2008, 02:25 PM
Block Plus Plus.

B++.

take that, C#.

Arold
10-06-2008, 02:32 PM
I like Bishoptwo's Idea. "Blockvoidance" really could catch on if people start saying it.

Tywin
10-06-2008, 02:58 PM
Sooo..

The term uncrushable is obsolete since bosses in Wrath routinely will not crush tanks anymore.

The term unhittable refers to having enough block/dodge/parry so that every incoming attack from a boss is blocked/dodged/parried.

The term is unhittable is argued to be misleading since players not familiar with tanking theory will assume unhittable means I can not be hit.

Does this sound like an accurate summary?

Also given Wrath's itemization, will both Warriors and Paladins be able to obtain enough block/dodge/parry so that every attack is blocked/dodged/parried?

edit: How about the term Hit Immune?

Kazeyonoma
10-06-2008, 03:03 PM
BoB means Best of Breeds, cmon guys, we can't go there.

Lizana
10-06-2008, 03:40 PM
Passively marmot - I think this is a phrase all of tank spot can get behind... And just think when some one asks what it is, theres a chance at free adverting for tankspot.

Lemurian
10-06-2008, 03:40 PM
What about just calling it DA? Damage Absorb. Cause really, thats whats happening you're taking the hit still but its being Absorbed.

Also, this thread is silly.

Kazeyonoma
10-06-2008, 03:46 PM
All this terminology speak is silly, people will learn what unhittable is when they research it, if they don't research it, they'll ask what it means elsewhere and get their info there, if they don't than they're bad.

Passively Marmot is awesome but, of course, non-tankspotters will just be like wtf?

phaze
10-06-2008, 03:52 PM
Funny I was thinking of the phrase "Block or Better" just as I was about to post too.

BoB for short?

Are you BoB?

Yes, I think a BoB trend must begin. I'm in my BoB gear, are you?

"We're throwing a party, it's BYOBoBG!" ;)

Lizana
10-06-2008, 03:53 PM
All this terminology speak is silly, people will learn what unhittable is when they research it, if they don't research it, they'll ask what it means elsewhere and get their info there, if they don't than they're bad.

Passively Marmot is awesome but, of course, non-tankspotters will just be like wtf?

And thats when you direct them to the new Sticky - So you want to be Marmot too?

And the Follow up guide - How to gear Marmot Style

And cant forget the post Marmot Vs Stam stacking Vs Avoidance.

Mardran
10-06-2008, 08:31 PM
As far as the taunt change goes, I agree that we probably will see some encounters that will require tanks to taunt from a distance, but I think one other utility detail is possibly being overlooked.

I'm currently playing a Ironbreaker in Warhammer Online who is a dwarf tanking class (there is a purpose to this, believe me). The Ironbreaker and actually all of the other tank classes in Warhammer have a taunt that works similarly to Taunt's new design in WoW in that it taunts from a decent distance, however whenever you taunt an opponent, it causes them to take 30% more damage from your attacks until they either hit you 3 times or after a certain time the debuff will fade. This usually leads me to actually pulling mobs to me when I'm questing using my taunt ability, which does work quite nicely.

I'm not sure if taunting a mob that is not in combat from a distance in WoW post 3.0 will actually pull it, but if it does, Taunt could become an additional pulling tool, which is always nice.

Parah
10-06-2008, 11:42 PM
I believe the new term should be AoC (Avoidance of the Chinchilla), I mean who could really hit a chinchilla?

Party member -"Are you geared enough for this?"
Tank - "I have avoidance of the chinchilla"
Party member - "omg, will you have my babies"

kpxneophyte
10-07-2008, 12:28 AM
You know, I get the feeling that people aren't aware of the fact that charge is usable in Defensive Stance.

My typical pull on PTR is usually shoot/throw, run back, charge, thunderclap, etc. I mean it's 15-25 free rage every 15 seconds; what's not to love about that?

As for dpsing when you're Prot specced and in a raid setting, spamming Devastate for the Sword and Board proc while charging every 15 seconds along with Bloodrage doesn't seem too bad of a combo for me.

Or I could be out of the loop and charging in Defensive Stance isn't all that great.

And sorry for changing the topic. Sort of.

Xhathor
10-07-2008, 12:36 AM
I mean who could really hit a chinchilla?


They are fast, so you have to aim a bit in front of their run direction.

Lizana
10-07-2008, 01:27 AM
I believe the new term should be AoC (Avoidance of the Chinchilla), I mean who could really hit a chinchilla?

Party member -"Are you geared enough for this?"
Tank - "I have avoidance of the chinchilla"
Party member - "omg, will you have my babies"

Are you really wanting to inflict that misspelling nightmare on the trade chats of your server. Chincilla Chinchillia Chunchilla, and the possible spelling problems go on and on.... Not so with Passive Marmot, Nice simple and Furry

Blatman
10-07-2008, 01:34 AM
why not just go with untouchable.

To hit something you have to make contact or touch it right so if its unhittable its also untouchable.

Party: "Are you untouchable?"
Tank: "Damn right I am and don't you forget it"

Lizana
10-07-2008, 01:36 AM
why not just go with untouchable.

To hit something you have to make contact or touch it right so if its unhittable its also untouchable.

Party: "Are you untouchable?"
Tank: "Damn right I am and don't you forget it"

Because blocking counts as unhittable. That was the whole argument they were saying if your blocking your being hit, the rest were saying a block is a block not a hit

tobarstep
10-07-2008, 03:25 AM
You know, I get the feeling that people aren't aware of the fact that charge is usable in Defensive Stance.

My typical pull on PTR is usually shoot/throw, run back, charge, thunderclap, etc. I mean it's 15-25 free rage every 15 seconds; what's not to love about that?


I forget it a lot. When I do remember, I love to hit Shockwave, back up, and then charge back in. Good times.

Morcius
10-07-2008, 03:27 AM
"Tanktastic"

Many warriors are tanks, but it takes the right amount of Block/Dodge/Parry to be tanktastic

Smaken
10-07-2008, 05:41 AM
I've been pondering this for quite a while and I would suggest instead of passive unhittable (which does bring to mind avoidance) that we use the term Deflection as the term for our block & (avoidance + block), thereby giving us an idea of how many hits are going to be actually hitting us.

As in, currently, Smaken sits at 27/70. That's 27% block / 43% (dodge/miss/parry) + 27% block = 70% of the time I'm not getting hit for full damage.

Lilie
10-07-2008, 05:47 AM
Just call it "300" and really mess everyone up...

"Are you 300?"

Lore
10-07-2008, 06:27 AM
Close, I'm 269.

Gloinir
10-07-2008, 07:50 AM
"Allmitigated"?

"Blocked out"?

Dunmail
10-07-2008, 08:05 AM
why not just go with untouchable.


I like the idea of keeping it terse but I get images of an overpriced slappa in a signing on queue, or a chav kappaslappa kicking in your headlights whilst a copper is chatting to a colleague nearby.

In the vein of above and a bad on-line thesarus....

Uncloutable?
Unwallopable?
Unassailable?
Unspankable?
Unconkable? - two pallys playing marbles?

jere
10-07-2008, 08:28 AM
unjabbable

Lore
10-07-2008, 08:57 AM
"almost as cool as Lore"

Atman
10-07-2008, 11:13 AM
Hey, first time posting, love the site & podcast. Thought I'd drop a line to attempt a contribution to this terminology thread. :)

How about changing Hit to "Clean Hit" as a way to describe an attack for which nothing "special" happens (no crit, crush, block, etc)? It's just a clean hit. Thus, instead of "hit immune" we can refer to being "clean-hit immune" (hyphens optional). I've used the term in vent before, when someone asks how much damage I was taking from a boss and I wanted to distinguish what kind of event was occurring. It seemed to be pretty well understood when I said "I took a clean hit for 7k damage."

As for a short term that means "stats that work towards clean hit immunity," I like "deflection," although in my mind that only includes block and parry, excluding dodge or miss. Again, this might be more semantics than combat mechanics, but there you go. Maybe "damage modification," as a complement to "damage reduction" or the term you used in a previous podcast, "handling damage."

Ciderhelm
10-07-2008, 11:14 AM
Does that mean we should use the term, Passive Dirty Hittable?

Atman
10-07-2008, 11:19 AM
Haha: "The tank got one-shotted by a dirty, dirty crush." Sure, that works. :p

Alent
10-07-2008, 11:20 AM
I stand by Block ++.

"passively Block ++"

Acronym: PB++

And if you're hungry: PB++Jelly

phaze
10-07-2008, 11:57 AM
Does that mean we should use the term, Passive Dirty Hittable?

I know what you're thinking: "Does my defense, dodge, and parry fully work on Arthas, and is it enough with the diminishing returns?"

Being that you're gambling on facing the attacks of Arthas, the most powerful being on Azeroth, you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?"

Well, do ya, punk? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066999/)

Lore
10-07-2008, 12:26 PM
Its pb++jelly time

tobarstep
10-07-2008, 07:05 PM
Does that mean we should use the term, Passive Dirty Hittable?

Ridin' Dirty.

Smaken
10-07-2008, 07:27 PM
As for a short term that means "stats that work towards clean hit immunity," I like "deflection," although in my mind that only includes block and parry, excluding dodge or miss.
Again, this might be more semantics than combat mechanics, but there you go.

That's kinda the reason I suggested it. We use avoidance to define when we're not getting hit but we don't include block in that number. Our block values should be significantly higher, and when you add in DR you are going to have (at least at first) a lot more variation than we're used to.

Since crushing blows are gone, uncrushable is no longer meaningful. What I'm trying to define as "Deflection" is how often do I take some damage (because of a block) and by inversion, how often does a full hit get me. Because thats the info that I really want to know.

Block/(block+avoidance) tells us that if it is 40/91 (rough numbers from my old uncrittable set I was working on) that 40% of the time I'll take some damage, and 9% of the time I'm catching it right in the face (I know its 11.4% but I'd expect anyone I'm discussing this with to understand 102.4%)

Once we know how much damage a given encounter puts out, we can then figure out the best gear balance for that encounter to put STDs (sudden tank deaths) off the chart (or at least to a lower percentage).

I've actually been giving this a lot of consideration and I think it would take a better mather than I am to figure it out (or at least someone who's not just an anecdotal tester) but I think if we can figure out a given bosse's dps we can put a list out with specific EH numbers so that we can gear more appropriately for specific encounters.

Machus
10-08-2008, 08:12 AM
I would just say:

"Could I have that item for my passive blocking set?",
"I'll use my passive blocking set for this gauntlet", or
"I can passive-block, so kill the elites first".

Lore
10-08-2008, 08:51 AM
I like "passive block"

Taelas
10-08-2008, 10:53 AM
That has the same connotation as 'guaranteed block', though. :p

EDIT: I vote for "BATANA"! (Blocking Attacks That Are Not Avoided)

mero12513
10-08-2008, 11:13 AM
Avoidance of the Marmot is without a doubt the best suggestion so far.

Lizana
10-08-2008, 05:01 PM
Avoidance of the Marmot is without a doubt the best suggestion so far.

Are you passivly Marmot?

hvidgaard
10-09-2008, 12:58 AM
My vote is for Untouchable, I can already see the majory of tanks doing the MC Hammer slide everytime someone ask :D

mero12513
10-09-2008, 06:35 AM
My vote is for Untouchable, I can already see the majory of tanks doing the MC Hammer slide everytime someone ask :D

Damn it feels good to be an orc :)

Killie
10-09-2008, 09:08 AM
Cool podcast guys, look forward to the instance and raid info :)

brain
10-09-2008, 08:11 PM
Note: real information doesn't start until well after 13:00m

Was hoping it was going to be a quick concise list of important information for tanks in the patch.

Embher
10-10-2008, 12:56 AM
Out of all the options, I think unhittable sounds like the best so far. From an attack table perspective, no hits are landed, which is what this applies to anyways. Even if we sometimes think of a block as a hit, the combat table differentiates between the two.

ok basics of tanking -Attack table

WIthout any stats, possible outcomes of an attack are
Normal hit
Crushing -shows (crushing) in log and is 1.5X the dmg of a normal hit
Crit-shows "crits" in log and is 2X the dmg of the normal hit.
Dodge-fully avoiding the dmg of the hit.
Parry-fully avoiding the dmg of the hit and your melee attack speed increases for your next hit.
Block-partial to full absorption of an attack. Your block value, which is a result of STR and +block value multiplied by your 30% block value increase (both prot paladins and prot warriors have this.), is the AMOUNT of dmg that is reduced from the dmg of the normal hit.
Miss-Attacker misses. Every player has 5% base miss and miss is increased by defense as much as it does for reducing crit chance.

In patch 3/WotLK, crushings will not be possible from bosses 3 levels are higher as it was in BC.

Warrior shield block in patch 3/WotLK will go to 60s cd , 40s cd with prot talent from 5 or 6s in BC.
So now warriors will fear being normally hit over the occasional crushing that shield block let through in BC (When the 1-2 blocking charges were used before the 5 or 6s cd, next unblocked hit could be a crushing or normal hit.) Now the warrior shield block cd has been increased, so normal hits are possible often. Though, critical block talent and shield block double your BV when you are blocking and shield block raises your block chance* by 100% during those 10s of the 40s cd.

Paladins still have holy shield with 8s cd but the duration increased from 8 to 10s, helping with lag. Though, I had 0 crushings in BC with holy shield of 8 charges with 8s cd/duration, spamming it, where warriors had 5 to 10% crushing occurrence in real wws reports with the shield block of 1-2 charges with 5 to 6s cd. THe good thing is that crushings are gone in WotLK and warriors have doubling BV abilities and talents to make up for the long cd of shield block.

Paladins are inheritently unhittable.
Warriors are hittable but with doubling BV talents.

This is roughly equal in dmg mitigation and has its pros and cons.

Healers will see a predictable dmg intake on apaladin where warriors will have spiky dmg with normal hits. Though warriors can save their shield block for certain predictable parts of the fights, where paladins can be consistently mitigating to help with special attacks that are random and not predictable.

(By the way, I am paladin tank on Burning Blade, have experience with SSC and Hyjal but I took a break from WoW for the past few months and I have been playing on my paladin on Public Test realm for patch 3 the last few weeks and going crazy researching all the new changes for protection paladins and protection warriors. Please don't hate me cause I am paladin. :/ :) )

Worldie
10-10-2008, 01:05 AM
That's indeed the common opinion currently about the "flavour difference" between the paladin and warrior.

For once it'll be relatively fun to see healers telling the warrior "you take more damage!1111oneone", even if in fact it's not true, but we all know healers just look how much you spike rather than the actual stats :P

Embher
10-10-2008, 01:07 AM
That's indeed the common opinion currently about the "flavour difference" between the paladin and warrior.

For once it'll be relatively fun to see healers telling the warrior "you take more damage!1111oneone", even if in fact it's not true, but we all know healers just look how much you spike rather than the actual stats :P

Wow, there are paladins from maintankadin on this site.. Heya, pal, wave...

jere
10-10-2008, 05:07 AM
ok basics of tanking -Attack table

WIthout any stats, possible outcomes of an attack are
Normal hit
Crushing -shows (crushing) in log and is 1.5X the dmg of a normal hit
Crit-shows "crits" in log and is 2X the dmg of the normal hit.
Dodge-fully avoiding the dmg of the hit.
Parry-fully avoiding the dmg of the hit and your melee attack speed increases for your next hit.
Block-partial to full absorption of an attack. Your block value, which is a result of STR and +block value multiplied by your 30% block value increase (both prot paladins and prot warriors have this.), is the AMOUNT of dmg that is reduced from the dmg of the normal hit.
Miss-Attacker misses. Every player has 5% base miss and miss is increased by defense as much as it does for reducing crit chance.

In patch 3/WotLK, crushings will not be possible from bosses 3 levels are higher as it was in BC.



Umm, I already knew about the attack table, and being a paladin, I am familiar with the mechanics.

Though your combat table is a bit off. Block should be right after crush and before any pure avoidance.

As I said, the combat table differentiates between hits and blocks. Even the table you posted shows that.

Embher
10-13-2008, 06:57 AM
Umm, I already knew about the attack table, and being a paladin, I am familiar with the mechanics.

Though your combat table is a bit off. Block should be right after crush and before any pure avoidance.

As I said, the combat table differentiates between hits and blocks. Even the table you posted shows that.

Basics were not directed at you. Your quote mentioned attack table. I was expanding on it for other people on the discussion. Thanks for ordering it up about which one is considered first. My list is not ordered in any way, to be clear, to others.

Radhja
10-13-2008, 01:12 PM
that's... something entirely different.


Defense Capped would work just fine.

phaze
10-13-2008, 01:47 PM
Defense Capped would work just fine.

That's also something different. ;) Defense itself does not cap in effectiveness (under normal gearing), just the -crit contribution.

Waal
10-13-2008, 05:31 PM
Another phrase for your consideration:

Worst Case: Block.

As in, "I've reached Worst Case: Block on this set of gear..." or, "I'm at WC:B."


(As this is my first post, let me also say that I love this site almost as much as I love this community. Keep up the great work!)

Ciderhelm
10-13-2008, 05:34 PM
Another phrase for your consideration:

Worst Case: Block.

As in, "I've reached Worst Case: Block on this set of gear..." or, "I'm at WC:B."


(As this is my first post, let me also say that I love this site almost as much as I love this community. Keep up the great work!)
That's not bad, and it could be catchy.

Nez
10-14-2008, 08:14 AM
All joking aside, have you ever tried to hit a marmot with a stick? They have to be running some serious avoid numbers...

Bigunns
10-15-2008, 12:46 PM
I really like the pod cast. However, give us more meat baby. I want details. Don't worry about it being to smart.

Thanks

Plzdontpunt
10-15-2008, 04:43 PM
You scared the kangaroos ! (I might have had the volume up too loud hehe)

Thanks for another great podcast! I listen to them during my long road trips in the Country and have enjoyed them so much (both the meaningless banter and the good info) that I have now registered here on Tankspot and yes, I promise, I will click on the donation button that you mentioned once or twice or maybe three times haha

Thanks again! Can't wait for the next one.


B.

Jock
10-26-2008, 12:35 AM
I'm still with ciderhelm's original though process on this. Being "unhittable" doesn't mean your are immune to damage. For the entire length of this game, we have been emphasizing to all new tanks that being "HIT" and "BLOCKING" an attack are two separate things. Why suddenly do we need to change the way we have discussed this issue?


For the purposes of theorycrafting in the tanking community, we should all be able to understand a basic hit table and the fact that pushing "hit" off the table doesn't make you immune to physical damage. If not, we need to get another job in game.



As a side note, unless I am reading incorrectly, def/dodge/parry all cap out now correct? This was actually to help prevent rogues or cat druids from tanking bosses like Mother (in BT) was it not?

ussnorway
10-26-2008, 01:00 AM
Can any 1 confirm or deny if damage shield is working? I know Improved disarm & spell reflection are not working but damage shield is harder to test.

Kazeyonoma
10-26-2008, 01:47 AM
Damage shield definitely works. Spell reflection and improved disarm are working as well, I don't know who told you they aren't.

ussnorway
10-26-2008, 04:37 PM
can you post a screen shot of a mob taking 10% more damage while it is disarmed?

Leytur
10-26-2008, 05:59 PM
Blocked hittable.

Khayra
10-28-2008, 06:50 PM
Can any 1 confirm or deny if damage shield is working? I know Improved disarm & spell reflection are not working but damage shield is harder to test.
Improved spell reflection works like a charm. And why should damage shield be hard to test? Put on your tanking gear, pull a mob, stop your auto attack and go get some coffee. You should know if it works when you come back.

Feuerhund
11-07-2008, 12:53 PM
Non-undefended?

or

Non-unblocked+?

Warschild
11-08-2008, 04:34 AM
IBAH

I Block All Hits

yeah, lame I know, have not had any coffee yet. ust wanted to pretend to make a contribution :D

Milbu
11-11-2008, 05:27 PM
Personally I don't think the terminology should be changed just because some people are to lazy to go look into it for them selves. I only vaguely follow theory and I still picked up what unhittable means right away.

In simple terms, you do not get HIT, that does not mean you do not get hurt. As pointed out a block still does damage. For all this you have to keep in mind that a hit is a type of attack, block, parry, dodge, miss, crit, crush (its still there just not a problem anymore) are other types of attacks. Uncrushable means you remove crush for the attack table, unhittable means you remove hit from the attack table.

What I am calling "damage immune" is a situation where the incoming hits are smaller than your black value (see "druids need a fur padding value"), whilst this is in an unhittable state, it is also damage immune state which is what people seam to think (want to think) unhittable is.


Saying your blocking all hits is misleading, dodge, parry, and miss can all also happen, this also applies to guaranteed block and so forth. This is why shield block says increase your chance to block by 100% rather than guaranteed block.

greedyboo
08-09-2009, 07:40 PM
I just brought my prot warrior out from retirement who hasnt tanked since sheesh kara i reckon. I have use tankspot quite often for encounters and for my prot pally pre gear checks and whatnot. Now going over the information available on the site here I was wondering if the glyph of devastate stacks with glyph of sunder...

ie. If i spam devastate on a mob, which applies 2 sunders, do those 2 sunders affect nearby mobs with glyph of sunder?

Also my warrior is level 73 atm and i realise that I dont have all the talents available to me, rank wise or trained but what is a fairly descent rotation that i should be using at this lvl and if possible does anyone have a talent tree spec at or around this lvl that i may use to get my spec correct.

I appreciate all the work here at tankspot. Keep up the great work...

Heladys
08-11-2009, 01:56 PM
Sunder Glyph + Devastate Glyph = 2 sunders per devastate on your targeted mob + 1 sunder on a nearby mob