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Satrina
09-27-2008, 10:46 AM
Thanks and credit to Whitetooth for doing all the math and analysis to get us the numbers and formula that make all of this explanation possible. (Want math? It's in post #2)

Dodge, parry, and miss are subject to diminishing returns. When you determine how much dodge/parry/miss you gain from rating or defense, it must be converted into the diminished amount. The diminished amount is what is added to your dodge/parry/miss chance.

Diminishing returns on avoidance do not work like diminishing returns on stuns! There's a common belief that if you avoid an attack, your chance to avoid subsequent attacks is reduced. This is not true - read on!

What are diminishing returns? One definition puts it this way: The principle that further inputs into a system produce ever lower increases in outputs. Basically, you get less avoidance for every point of rating than you got for the last one. There's a simple step-by-step "here's how it works" explanation of diminishing returns here: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/41522-diminishing-returns-armour.html.

Some things worth noting:

Chill of the Throne is applied after diminishing returns. If you get all buffed up outside of ICC to, say, 26% dodge, when you zone in you will have 6% dodge.
The diminishing returns on dodge, parry, and chance to be missed are independent of each other. Each has its own cap and formula.
There is no "avoidance cap". If you can get to 10% miss + 20% parry + 70% dodge, you would indeed be completely unhittable by an equal level attacker
Avoidance contributed by defense is subject to diminishing returns, as will be shown below
Your base (naked) avoidance and avoidance given by talents and racials is NOT subject to diminishing returns, and are not included in the formulas. Just add them on at the end.
The cap for miss has been verified for warriors only at this time.
The dodge and parry numbers shown on your character sheet do have diminishing returns taken into account (see Post #86 (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance-5.html#post228997) for how that works)
The miss chance on the defense tooltip does not have diminishing returns taken into account (see below for how to calculate miss chance.) The tooltip is also reporting only the non-diminished amount of miss chance that your defense is contributing - it does not include the basic 5% miss chance that an equal level opponent will have against you.
Block chance is not subject to diminishing returns at all


The total change in an avoidance type (i.e. dodge, parry, or miss) from all sources (rating, defense, agility, etc.) must be calculated together so that the result correctly takes the diminishing returns into account. When considering an item and whether it is an upgrade or not, a total recalculation of each avoidance type using the new item's stats and all stats from other items, buffs, etc. must be performed. To avoid a great deal of tedious calculation and recalculation, an addon like Whitetooth's RatingBuster is highly recommended. RatingBuster will do the complete recalculation for a given item, and display the correct increase or decrease in stats in the item's tooltip. Get RatingBuster: WoWInterface (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info5819-RatingBuster.html), Curse (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/rating-buster.aspx)

Here's a sampling of rating vs. avoidance (pretty graphs are below in other posts).
- We start at zero and just show values for different amounts of rating.
- The expected value for each of dodge, parry and miss is simply the amount of rating divided by the rating needed for 1% (what you would have gotten as a tank in the Burning Crusade era)
- The diminished value for each is what you will actually get.
- See post #2 to see how these diminished numbers are actaully calculated, if you care.


expected diminished expected diminished expected diminished
rating dodge dodge parry parry miss miss
0 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
100 2.21 2.25 2.21 2.20 0.81 0.81
200 4.42 4.39 4.42 4.21 1.63 1.54
300 6.63 6.43 6.63 6.04 2.44 2.20
400 8.84 8.37 8.84 7.73 3.25 2.81
500 11.05 10.22 11.05 9.28 4.07 3.36
600 13.26 11.98 13.26 10.71 4.88 3.87
700 15.47 13.67 15.47 12.04 5.69 4.34
800 17.68 15.29 17.68 13.27 6.51 4.77
900 19.89 16.83 19.89 14.42 7.32 5.18
1000 22.10 18.31 22.10 15.50 8.13 5.55
1100 24.31 19.73 24.31 16.50 8.95 5.90
1200 26.52 21.10 26.52 17.44 9.76 6.23
1300 28.73 22.41 28.73 18.33 10.57 6.54
1400 30.94 23.67 30.94 19.17 11.39 6.83
1500 33.15 24.88 33.15 19.95 12.20 7.10
1600 35.36 26.05 35.36 20.70 13.01 7.35
1700 37.57 27.18 37.57 21.40 13.83 7.60
1800 39.78 28.26 39.78 22.07 14.64 7.82
1900 41.99 29.31 41.99 22.71 15.45 8.04
2000 44.20 30.32 44.20 23.31 16.27 8.25
10000 220.99 63.80 220.99 39.06 81.33 13.47

Note that actual avoidance approaches the cap asymptotically as expected. Stacking rating to try and hit the cap will leave you disappointed. All of the above numbers are based on just the ratings. To these you need to add your base chance to dodge, parry, and be missed (don't forget an extra 2% if you're a Night Elf).

How much rating?
The most popular question: How much should you get then, and in what balance? Thanks to a bunch of work by Xenix, Jere, Theck and others (see here (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?p=461664)), we have some general rules for the post-3.2 world:

Warriors and Paladins
Take your total values for dodge and parry from the character sheet. From there, your optimal balance between dodge rating and parry rating is

(character_sheet_dodge-10%)/(character_sheet_parry-10%) = 1.88

Of course, if you're outside of your "optimal balance" and you add a parry gem, that may be enough to tip the balance back. The odds of you needing to actively pursue parry are pretty low.

Death Knights
The parry you get converted from strength is subject to diminishing returns. This means you will always have lots of parry rating. Your optimal balance is

dodge is always better

Frequently Asked Questions

Q What about parry gems?
A If you're a Death Knight, you're never using them. For a Paladin or Warrior, it may be that a parry gem may satisfy the optimal balance for you. Then again, most will only use such a gem to satisfy meta requirements (the greater debate of stamina vs. avoidance gems is not something we'll go into here), so the likelihood of having the "wrong" gem socketed and making a big difference is basically none. As noted, the likelihood that you will need to stack parry gems to achieve your "optimal balance" is pretty low. Even if you did need multiples, the change in your overall avoidance is on the order of fractions of a percentage.

Q Does gear that is itemised with parry suck?
A Nope. The parry you get from itemisation will help keep you in balance as you go. Of course, the old comparisons still apply: if you have iLevel 187 bracers with 20 dodge rating and get iLevel 200 bracers with 55 parry rating, that's an upgrade no matter how you look at it. If you have bracers with 50 dodge rating and get bracers with 55 parry rating, it's a little less clear as to whether that's an upgrade.

Q Does this mean that every X avoidance you add increases time to live linearly, like armour?
A Nope, it falls out differently for avoidance. Being based on probabilities, you can't determine a concrete amount of time to live it would give anyway.

Q Are we sure that chance to be missed subject is to diminishing returns?
A Yes. Daelo told us so on the WoW forums. Whitetooth has done an insane amount of testing to determine what the miss cap is (here: The Miss Cap (http://elitistjerks.com/1053037-post335.html))

Q Has anyone confirmed the miss cap for Paladins, Deathknights, or Druids yet?
A Not 100% absolutely yet, but it's a good bet the cap is the same as Warriors for Paladins and Deathknights since the dodge and parry caps are the same. Druids may have a different cap given their cap for dodge is different from everyone else's.

Q What's my chance to be missed at 540 defense?
A 9.29% unless you're a Night Elf, in which case it's 11.29%. Example 3, below, breaks down the math for 540 defense (689 defense rating from gear)

QIs the dodge and parry chance listed on the character panel before or after diminishing returns?
AThe dodge and parry percentages have diminishing returns taken into account. It's a bady worded tooltip for sure. See here: Post #86 (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance-5.html#post228997)

Q What's the macro for avoidance now?
A http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f120/44685-block-cap-pure-avoidance-macros.html

Q Is there a real example of the calculation I can see?
A These use Patch 3.1 values: Warrior (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51657-avoidance-calculation-plate-wearers.html#post241854) and Death Knight (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51657-avoidance-calculation-plate-wearers.html#post241860). The method used there is the same as you'll use with the current values, though.

Satrina
10-22-2008, 10:06 AM
Here comes the math
The basic conversions for defense, dodge and parry rating at level 80 are:


4.91850 defense rating = 1 defense skill
45.25019 dodge rating = 1% dodge chance
45.25019 parry rating = 1% parry chance
122.9625 defense rating = 1% dodge/parry/miss chance

These values are correct as of patch 3.2

You generally only gain miss chance from defense, though things like the Night Elf racial (which is not subject to diminishing returns) are around. Testing to determine the exact diminishing returns on miss has not been completed. We know that miss is subject to diminishing returns because of Daelo's comment here: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Avoidance change (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10043278278&sid=2000). (emphasis mine)


We just restarted the servers to fix an issue with the diminishing returns formula we added for Dodge, Parry, and the enemy's chance to miss you.

Whitetooth has also done the work to isolate the miss cap (link above)

There is a coefficient (k) for each class that bounds the diminishing returns:

Class k
Warrior 0.956
Paladin 0.956
Deathknight 0.956
Druid 0.972

These values are correct as of patch 3.2

There is a cap (c) for each class, for each avoidance type:

Class type c 1/c
Warrior Dodge 88.129021 0.011347
Warrior Parry 47.003525 0.021275
Warrior Miss 16 0.0625
Paladin Dodge 88.129021 0.011347
Paladin Parry 47.003525 0.021275
Paladin Miss 16 0.0625 (presumed since all other caps are the same as warriors)
Deathknight Dodge 88.129021 0.011347
Deathknight Parry 47.003525 0.021275
Deathknight Miss 16 0.0625 (presumed since all other caps are the same as warriors)
Druid Dodge 116.890707 0.008555

These values are correct as of patch 3.2

Finally, the agility you have beyond your naked agility also affects your dodge chance, based on class:


Class Dodge/Agility
Warrior 0.0118
Paladin 0.0167
Deathknight 0.0118
Druid 0.0209

These values are correct as of patch 3.2

Note that your base (naked) avoidance and avoidance given by talents and racials is NOT subject to diminishing returns - do not include them in the calculation

Also note that your base defense (what you have when you're naked) is not used in calculations - only the defense you gain from gear.

The net amount of avoidance you get is given by:

http://evilempireguild.org/guides/images/avoidance.diminish.jpg

Where
A is the amount of avoidance before diminishing returns
c is the cap for the avoidance stat
k is the constant for your class
Ad is the amount of avoidance after diminishing returns are applied (how much your avoidance actually increases)

Each avoidance type (dodge, parry) is calculated separately from the other. The amount of dodge you have does not affect the diminishing returns on your parry, and vice-versa.

Example 1 - Dodge

Suppose a warrior has 5% dodge when naked with +261 agility from gear, +557 defense on gear, and +368 dodge rating on gear:

First, calculate the base dodge chance from gear:
1a) Convert defense rating to defense skill: 557/4.9185 = 113 defense skill
1b) Convert defense skill to base dodge chance: 113 * 0.04 = 4.52%
1c) Convert dodge rating to base dodge chance: 368/45.25019 = 8.13256%
1d) Convert agility to base dodge chance: 261 * 0.01360 = 3.5496%
2) Calculate k/A: 0.956/(4.52 + 8.13256 + 3.5496) = 0.059
3) Calculate 1/c + k/A: 0.01135 + 0.059 = 0.07035
4) invert the result from step 3: 1/0.07035 = 14.21434%. This is Ad, the diminished amount of dodge actually gained

Now add the diminished dodge from gear to the dodge when naked, and the warrior will end up with 5% + 14.21% = 19.21% dodge

Example 2 - Parry

Suppose a deathknight has 5% parry when naked with +255 defense rating on gear, and +375 parry rating on gear:

First, calculate the base parry chance from gear:
1a) Convert defense rating to defense skill: 255/4.9185 = 51 defense skill
1b) Convert defense skill to base parry chance: 51 * 0.04 = 2.04%
1c) Convert parry rating to base parry chance: 375/45.25019 = 8.28726%
2) Calculate k/A: 0.956/(2.04 + 8.28726) = 0.09257
3) Calculate 1/c + k/A: 0.02128 + 0.09257 = 0.11385
4) invert the result from step 3: 1/0.11385 = 8.78383%. This is Ad, the diminished amount of parry actually gained

Now add the diminished parry chance to the base parry chance and the deathknight will end up with 5% + 8.78% = 13.78% parry

Example 3 - Miss
We know that each point of defense skill increases your chance to be missed by 0.04%, and that defense is currently the only way to increase your chance to be missed. Suppose a human warrior has +689 defense on gear:

1a) Convert defense rating to defense skill: 689/49.18499 = 140 defense skill
1b) Convert defense skill to base miss chance: 140 * 0.04 = 5.6%
2) Calculate k/A: 0.956/5.6 = 0.17071
3) Calculate 1/c + k/A: 0.0625 + 0.17071 = 0.23321
4) invert the result from step 3: 1/0.23321 = 4.2879%. This is Ad, the diminished amount of miss actually gained

The warrior will end up with 5% + 4.29% = 9.29% miss. If the warrior were a Night Elf, the chance to be missed would be 11.29% (because of the Quickness racial.)

You can not simply calculate what a given item "should" increase your stats by and just add it to what you have.

Example 4 - Optimum Balance vs. Stamina
Suppose we have a warrior with 695 defense rating, 600 dodge rating, and 100 parry rating.
This comes out to 26.61% dodge and 18.21% parry. Following the opimum balance formula, we see that the warrior has (26.61 - 10)/(18.21 - 10) = 2.02

If the warrior trades one stamina gem for +20 parry rating, then the 695/600/120 stats become avoidances of 26.61% and 18.67%, for a ratio of 1.92. Trading another stamina gem for 20 more parry, then the 695/600/140 stats become 26.61% and 19.14%, for a ratio of 1.82. In this case two parry gems brings the warrior back into optimal balance at a cost of 60 stamina.

Example 5 - Trading for Optimum Balance
Suppose we have a warrior with 695 defense rating, 600 dodge rating, and 100 parry rating.
This comes out to 26.61% dodge and 18.21% parry. Following the opimum balance formula, we see that the warrior has (26.61 - 10)/(18.21 - 10) = 2.02

If the warrior trades one dodge gem for a parry gem then the 695/580/120 stats become avoidances of 26.30% and 18.67%, for a ratio of 1.88. In this case changing one dodge gem for a parry gem brings the warrior back into optimal balance.

Example 6 - Optimum Balance vs. Defense
Suppose we have a warrior with 695 defense rating, 600 dodge rating, and 100 parry rating.
This comes out to 26.61% dodge and 18.21% parry. Following the opimum balance formula, we see that the warrior has (26.61 - 10)/(18.21 - 10) = 2.02

If the warrior trades one dodge gem for defense rating, then the 695/580/100 stats become avoidances of 26.41% and 18.38%, for a ratio of 1.96. Ultimately, three defense gems would be required to bring the ratio below 1.88 if trading dodge gems for them.

If the warrior were to trade stamina gems for defense gems then a trade of 6 gems would be required to bring the ratio below 1.88, or 180 stamina for 120 defense.

weel
10-22-2008, 10:53 PM
But how do we know that avoidance-talents are not diminished. With high avoidance on gear speccing in and out of the talents would show it, anyone done this yet?

edit: nwm, whitetooth had alrdy tried it

Tamsen
10-28-2008, 06:06 AM
Does increased dodge rating give diminishing returns on parry? Or are the two stats evaluated independently?

Kazeyonoma
10-28-2008, 10:13 AM
evaluated differently, look at his examples.

Tamsen
10-28-2008, 10:46 AM
That's what I thought, it's just these couple sentences that made me think it might be otherwise:



The total change in avoidance from all sources (rating, defense, agility, etc.) must be calculated together so that the result correctly takes the diminishing returns into account. When considering an item and whether it is an upgrade or not, a total recalculation of avoidance using the new item's stats and all stats from other items, buffs, etc. must be performed.

Satrina
10-28-2008, 11:13 AM
Clarified in the text.

Manßearpig
11-03-2008, 02:54 PM
I did a little Excel for Druid Agility to Dodge conversions @ 80


http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/9398/1_agi-to-dodge.jpg

http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/9398/1_agi-dodge-_.jpg

Here are my Sets using Whitetooths Formula

http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/9398/1_sets.jpg

*Edit*
These numbers do not include the base Dodge from Agi or Talents

Lilie
11-04-2008, 05:12 AM
Nice work pig :).

Naaven
11-04-2008, 05:59 AM
Charts are hot.

Also, the TankPoints addon (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/tank-points.aspx)is another addon that seems to work well for this sort of thing, and is very easy to use. You can bring up an extensive calculator and adjust your stats as required, with all the outputs calculating automatically. It also puts a +/- value for each item in the popup info box that compares it to whatever item you have equiped for that slot.

Khadir
11-04-2008, 02:47 PM
Thank you.

Made an Exel file for my self using this info and expended it with the 0.25 parry rating DK's get from 1 str. I only insert the ratings I have ( def rating, parry rating block rating, agility, strength ) and it gives me 12 outcomes. Those are 3 for each of the 4 tanking classes. Each class has an outcome fore Undeminished Dodge+Parry+Baseavoidance, the same for Deminished and 1 wich also includes Block and Chance to be missed. I putted block in it in a way it didn't get deminished cause this new mechanics only work for parry and dodge.

Anyway, thanks for the easy explanations. I wish I could post my Exel file here but it is either not posile or I don't know how to do it.

Anyway, thanks for your topic.

Arideni
11-05-2008, 07:25 AM
Click "Post Reply" & scroll down where it says "Additional Options." There is a button which says "Manage Attachments," click that. Should be able to upload your excel file so we can see your work.

Khadir
11-05-2008, 08:18 AM
I hope it works. Anyway, The fields in which you can put in your own variables is colored yellow and the fields which show the results are colored orange to make it easier for you to use. I did that because I wanted to keep it simple first and the kept expanding it so it grew in an odd shape. But it funcions perfecly since i got the same answers when I entered the values from the shown examples.

If you see any of my mistakes, just send me a PM or just reply to this topic.

Hope it helps you a bit.

supmeow
11-05-2008, 11:13 PM
first, thanks for all of your hard work that you put into this.
second, i am stupid and need clarification

the talents that increase dodge and parry, are they good because they are NOT affected by diminishing returns?

also are these diminishing returns a huge deal? if i had 5% would i lose 1%, or is it more towards 5% goes down by 0.1%?

Arideni
11-06-2008, 07:02 AM
Talents such as Anticipation & Deflection are good because they are not affected by diminishing returns (same with racials). Baseline stats are unaffected. Period.

If you're looking for more information, have a look at this thread (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html).

Galushi
11-12-2008, 12:49 AM
RatingsBuster has to be one of the greatest and most important mods ive ever used.

Rhaegar
11-13-2008, 04:15 AM
First off, thanks for the very informational post :)

After reading and thinking about it a bit, do however still have a few questions...
It basically comes down to: how will this affect us when choosing gear?

From what I understand is that the diminishing returns for avoidance now work quite similar to the diminishing returns of armor.
By this I mean that a point of dodge rating will yield less dodge percentage the more you add, but that every point of dodge rating will have a linear decrease in the amount of damage received (on average over time).

The tricky part is that unlike armor, avoidance is distributed over three different stats (dodge, parry & miss/defense).
Assuming the comparison with diminishing returns from armor is correct, the best way to get maximum time-to-live from your avoidance stats would be to keep them as balanced as possible. Increasing dodge while you already have more dodge than parry, will yield less benefit than adding the same amount parry.

I'm thinking of the following gearing rules:

If you have more dodge than parry, go for parry gear.
If you have more parry than dodge, go for dodge gear.
Defense gear is always good, but don't favor defense over dodge or parry when you're lacking one of those.


Any feedback would greatly be appreciated, and please do correct me if I'm wrong.
Right now I'm trying to find some easy guidelines that prevent me from grabbing a calculator/addon each time some gear choice has to be made :)

Kazeyonoma
11-13-2008, 07:56 AM
the first 2 rules you state make some sense, but defense is likewise almost as good as dodge point for point even without diminishing returns. I'd say that defense is probably a better stat to stack than parry most of the time because you get more return out of it, it gives you the best avoidance ever (miss) and it also gives you some parry, AND some shield block rating which is a good way to increase your overall mitigation by ensuring more attacks get blocked. it's the easiest stat to balance yourself around, but dodge converts at a slighty better rating so it's prioritized a little higher.

I'd just go with Xav's advice and just go pure defense because you'll be hurting to stay uncrittable anyways =P

Shortypop
11-18-2008, 07:52 AM
I'm not sure if I'm correct but I was thinking of gemming for parry in red sockets as blue level 80 gear seems dodge heavy, but having done a closer read of this thread, am I right when I say that because of the relative caps on dodge and parry, its only worth gemming for parry if the bit of your dodge thats subject to diminishing returns is somewhere in the region of twice the part of your parry thats subject to diminishing returns?

That was probably badly explained, but presumably the lower cap on parry means the diminishing returns curve is far steeper than for dodge?

Shortypop
11-18-2008, 09:54 AM
aha! thanks kazey

North
11-20-2008, 09:52 AM
I found these trade-offs a bit hard to visualize until I drew an equivalent circuit:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5033/avoidancecircuittrw6.png

which I think is correct. Avoidance of dodge and parry add like resistance in series and parallel, based on the weightings k and c. This makes sense that as dodge and parry grow large, c dominates the parallel component (ie, the dodge and parry 'cap' from gear).

Throwing it up here in case the visual of an avoidance circuit helps anyone else...

-- North

Kazeyonoma
11-20-2008, 10:24 AM
I haven't dared look at an electrical Circuit diagram since Physics in College. I am now running in terror...

Satrina
11-20-2008, 12:18 PM
That is win and awesome.

Alkahn
11-21-2008, 03:31 PM
I somehow missed the post about the diminishing returns, and as a warrior I'm also trying to figure out how this affects my gearing. The thing that I've read and re-read that I don't understand is the "cap".

Class type c 1/c
Warrior Dodge 88.129021 0.011347
Warrior Parry 47.003525 0.021275

What exactly does 'c' mean? Are those hard coded maximum percents? Are they just per-rating constants for the formula? The fact that druids have a 100+ 'cap' would seem to indicate that it's not percent, and the numbers are way too low to be ratings (it would seem).

So outside of the equation, should that 'c' be evocative of anything to us? Are there hard-coded % maximums we can never achieve?

Kazeyonoma
11-21-2008, 04:43 PM
it is the percent cap on warrior dodge and warrior parry I believe.

Mambo
11-26-2008, 11:09 AM
My understanding is this:

The closer you get to the cap, the faster the returns diminish. For warriors, pallies, and DK's, the parry cap is lower so the returns diminish faster at the same avoidance. For example, you get the same "bang for your buck" (Ad/A) in rating at the following points.

10% dodge and 5% parry
15% dodge and 6.5% parry
20% dodge and 8.5% parry

So it looks like parry is much more expensive in terms of diminishing returns. So if your added avoidance from dodge is less than twice your added avoidance from parry, go for Dodge, otherwise go with parry. On top of that, parry is more expensive in terms of avoidance/rating so it makes it even more expensive.

I wonder how this is all related to defense and do misses from defense also suffer from diminishing returns?

Satrina
11-26-2008, 11:11 AM
do misses from defense also suffer from diminishing returns?
Yes (that's answered in the OP!)

Mambo
11-26-2008, 06:08 PM
So, in order to get the most out of the Defense stat, you also need to balance Dodge and Parry.

Zephyr
11-28-2008, 09:28 AM
After reading this post i decided to do abit of math myself, mainly to find a formula that tells me how much rating i need for another % of avoidance for dodge and parry, havent come to do def yet. And use those to find out when it's worth gemming for parry instead of dodge.

Since all data already have been multiplied with 100% omnitting the % sign ill do the same.

To gain an additional % postdimished avoidance of a single attribute post diminishing returns you will need Ax amount of of that stat pre diminishing returns furfilling following equation, where A the amount of avoidance you have in that stat exceding base, as listed in the tooltip:
http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/8456/1_EquationZephyr1.jpg

To convert that to rating pr avoidance post diminishing returns you only have to multiply with the base rating pr avoidance.
http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/8456/1_EquationZephyr2.jpg

To better understand these formulars i have made a graph of how much rating you need to gain 1% avoidance, compared to how much you have in your tooltip (predimished).
http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/8456/1_EquationZephyr3.jpg


As you can see from the graph you need quite alot of dodge for parry to be equally as good, i have decided to calculated this aswell to get the exact.
Ap is the % of additional parry in the tooltip, and Ad is the % of additional dodge. Then lets see what Add must be for both stats to return the same avoidance pr rating.
http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/8456/1_EquationZephyr4.jpg

So you more then twice as much dodge plus 10 then your parry for parry gemming to be worthwhile for avoidance purposes.


P.S. I apologize for any flawed language not used to writing in english.

Greymantle
11-30-2008, 11:55 AM
Sorry for being a nub, couldn't figure out how to post a graph.

If I get this right, I’m afraid spreadsheets are required gear decision.

First, I rewrote the formula to this:

Ad = 1 / [ (1/c) + (k/A) ]

Both c and k are constants, the only variable is A.

In terms of survivability, the only thing that matters is the difference (∆) for Ad. The smaller the denominator the lesser avoidance you lose on the ∆ Ad.

Due to the dodge and parry caps (c) are different, these two types of avoidance do not subject to the same rate of diminishing return. Essentially speaking, due to 1/c for dodge is smaller than for parry, for the same A value, the denominator for dodge is smaller than for parry.

The only general rule that derive from this is to diversify the different types of avoidance and keep each category low to minimize diminishing return (avoid stacking a single avoidance type). While this comes pretty close to stack defense, due to the rates for diminishing return for them are different, there should be more dodge than parry (not to mention the same amount of avoidance in parry cost than dodge, please read Zephyr’s post for details).

After saying all these, sorry, you still need to run a spreadsheet with your setups to make the final decision. I blame blizzard for making the math so much more complicated.


An interesting point, when A is an extremely small value, ∆ Ad is greater than A.

When A > 1.02%, A becomes greater than ∆ (parry)

When A > 1.92%, A becomes greater than ∆ (dodge)

Although practically, this makes no difference. Since you need 90 defense skills above base value to eliminate critical strikes against you; you should have A = 3.6% for every type of avoidance already.

Rorax
12-01-2008, 02:00 AM
Satrina,

Thank you for this post and all the information. It's certainly very useful and thorough :)

But in my case, my math skills are non-existent. I literally cannot do even basic math well. So when I go to add gems and enchants to upgrade my defense rating or dodge, etc. I often feel very frustrated because I have no way of knowing exactly how much + defense (for example) I will actually get when I apply the new item.

To be honest, I think this is a fault in the game that Blizzard should fix. For example, if an item reads "On equip: Adds 12 defense rating", then it should do just exactly that when it is equipped. I'm a player, this is just a game I do in my past time and I shouldn't be required to do complex calculations to figure out just how much defense (for example) I will get AFTER equipping a BOE item that I could have sold instead.

Having said that, I realize Blizzard may not do this any time soon. So I guess my real question is, is there a simple script/macro/forumla somewhere that I can simply plug numbers into? I used to have one for total avoidance and it was very, very useful before we all leveled to 80 - Just click it and I'd know what percentage I was at.

Anyway, thanks again and I appreciate anyone who might be able to help.

Regards,

Ror

Xav
12-01-2008, 08:27 AM
Indeed, the math required now when making gear decisions is daunting, and not really worth the time. Luckily, some people have started spreadsheets which do the math for us.

Tanking Spreadsheet - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t36981-tanking_spreadsheet/)

Is one, and while it is not entirely updated, the vast majority of stuff is. If you are familiar with spreadsheets you can edit some things too.

Anyhow, I never used spreadsheets before but now that the value of def/dodge/parry changes based on your gear choices and gear level, it's pretty much required. Take a look, I assume the author will update it more in the future.

Janduin
12-03-2008, 07:36 AM
Thanks Zephyr for the calculation. One thing I think you may want to clarify in your text though is that Ad and Ap need to be the undiminished avoidance from the dodge and parry tooltips PLUS the undiminished dodge and parry % you get from the defense tooltip, right? For instance, at exactly uncrittable, your additional defense gives you 5% pre-diminishing returns to dodge, parry and miss. Assuming no additional defense or parry on gear, how much dodge rating would you have to stack to reach parity per rating point with parry? Using your formula, you'd need about 20% additional undiminished dodge. You have 5% from your defense, so 15% undiminished dodge. 39.34799 dodge rating per percent undiminished, we get ~590 dodge rating. Any additional parry or defense you have is just going to make this number go up, so the rule of thumb should be: Until you are at 590 dodge rating, point for point dodge is better. Gem for dodge. Once we get that high we can revisit the calculation.

Kerg
12-04-2008, 04:14 PM
From what I understand is that the diminishing returns for avoidance now work quite similar to the diminishing returns of armor.
By this I mean that a point of dodge rating will yield less dodge percentage the more you add, but that every point of dodge rating will have a linear decrease in the amount of damage received (on average over time).

So what you are saying is that, like armor, stacking avoidance is actually linear now? As Satrina's famous example way back when showed, in Time to Live terms, adding 100 armor benefits you the same whether you have 10,000 armor or 20,000 armor (until you reach the cap). Would the same hold true for avoidance stats now? Is adding 12 Dodge Rating always the same no matter how much you currently have (until you reach the cap)?

It used to be that avoidance had increasing returns, e.g. adding 12 Dodge Rating when you were at 80% avoidance reduced a lot more incoming damage than adding 12 Dodge Rating when you were at 60% avoidance. Is this change meant to offset that (to keep avoidance tanks from stacking too much)?

Kazeyonoma
12-04-2008, 04:25 PM
yes that is the intention Kerg, whether it is exactly the same as Armor in terms of TTL? I dunno, but it's supposed to be linear somewhat.

Petninja
12-04-2008, 04:37 PM
I might suggest Rating Buster (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/rating-buster.aspx) for anyone who looks at math and runs for a cootie shot. It should help with some of your woes, though perhaps not as effective as having a pet Satrina or a spreadsheet.

nips
12-06-2008, 04:15 AM
Is Rune of Swordshattering - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=53323#comments) affected by diminishing returns? And is the parry DK's get from strenght affected by it?

Oghula
12-06-2008, 05:42 AM
So what you are saying is that, like armor, stacking avoidance is actually linear now?

yes that is the intention Kerg, whether it is exactly the same as Armor in terms of TTL? I dunno, but it's supposed to be linear somewhat.
Unlike effective health, it is not exactly linear. TTL has diminishing returns in avoidence, but they are so small you shouldn't worry about them.
I'll use dodge rating as an example:

TTL (dr=0) = 1 (obviously)
TTL (dr=1) = 1.00026583 or 0.02658% increase

TTL (dr=999) = 1.256401494
TTL (dr=1000) = 1.25664929 or 0.02478% increase

So while diminishing returns on TTL exist, you will have a hard time to notice them.
http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/4770/1_TTL_diminishig_returns.png

elusive
12-07-2008, 12:08 AM
First let me say this helped me figure things out quite a considerable amount, thank you.
My trouble however lies when I attempted to run your calculations myself, I'll admit that it could be a mistake with my maths but I rechecked it as best I can with identical results or perhaps I've mistaken some of the explanation.

My Paladin, 80th level has 699 def rating, 127 dodge rating and 22 agility from gear. These being the stats used in the calculations of dodge chance.
According to your information this results in 13.79% dodge after diminishing returns, the trouble lies in that according to my in-game character screen I have 18.73% dodge (before diminishing returns).

Now I know that 5% of that is from the Anticipation talent, but how is my in-game before diminishing returns statistic lower than the result of calculating it using your notes?
Surely it should be the other way around?

Kazeyonoma
12-08-2008, 09:40 AM
no, this was discussed that at lower levels of avoidance, DR actually gives you MORE per rating than before, it's kind of a weird anomaly.

Janduin
12-12-2008, 06:28 AM
First let me say this helped me figure things out quite a considerable amount, thank you.
My trouble however lies when I attempted to run your calculations myself, I'll admit that it could be a mistake with my maths but I rechecked it as best I can with identical results or perhaps I've mistaken some of the explanation.

My Paladin, 80th level has 699 def rating, 127 dodge rating and 22 agility from gear. These being the stats used in the calculations of dodge chance.
According to your information this results in 13.79% dodge after diminishing returns, the trouble lies in that according to my in-game character screen I have 18.73% dodge (before diminishing returns).

Now I know that 5% of that is from the Anticipation talent, but how is my in-game before diminishing returns statistic lower than the result of calculating it using your notes?
Surely it should be the other way around?

No, I think you are doing something screwy with your calculation. I get something like 9.33% dodge subject to diminishing returns, 8.79% after. Add in 10.04% from anticipation, base dodge, and base agility (none subject to DR) and you get 18.83% for your character sheet dodge %, which is pretty close I'd say, considering defense rating is rounded to defense skill and I rounded some of the other numbers. The final % on your character sheet is AFTER DR, the only number before DR is the % given in the tooltip.

Zephyr
12-13-2008, 08:37 AM
Ok to bring it down abit for some ground rules about what avoidances to stack.

Defense vs Dodge:
The value of defense for mitigation is very close to that of dodge. Defense will give slightly less avoidance then dodge but it will give you block and crit, along with a better kind of avoidance*.
So defense will be slightly better then dodge if you can use block rating or if you need more to reach uncritable.
Dodge will be slightly better if you cant use block rating and well above uncritable (so it doesn't cause problems when swapping gear)

*Better kind of avoidance in the sence that parry gives parry haste and miss works from behind and while stunned/feared.

Dodge vs Parry:
With talents and base values you should have 10% dodge and 10% parry, atleast for warrior/pala these are not included in diminishing returns.
So for it to be worth it gemming for parry you will need to have more
10% parry: you need more then 20% dodge. (base)
15.6% parry you need more then 31.2% dodge. (uncrittable)
17.5% parry, you need more then 35% dodge. (normal stats)
20% parry, you need more then 40% dodge. (high stats)

And the formula:
Parry is worh more then dodge if:
2x Dodge% in tooltip > parry% in tooltip

As you can see it's highly unlikely that you will ever care more for parry then dodge.
Note that doesn't mean that parry is a bad or wasted stat in any way on an item, due to the stat allocation on items having defense, dodge and parry on an item will always be better then just defense and dodge.

Enthalpy
12-16-2008, 09:25 AM
Hi everyone.
I've made up a spreadsheet to try and determine stat weights. I'll post it a bit later.
I am generating weights based on the amount of rating required to gain 1% additional avoidance. I figure that step size is small enough that it will remain somewhat accurate. Everything works fine except for defense, I'm getting an increasing returns effect which means I'm not using the right equation or modelling for defense weighting.

What I did, is i took the 1/lambda = 1/c + k/A, and I solved for lambda getting
lambda = c*A/(A+ck)
Then to find weights i used
Lambda(A+x) = Lambda(A)+1, where the left side is avoidance + additional rating, and the right side is previous avoidance +1%.
After solving for x, that is the amount of raw avoidance required to gain 1%, and i then convert it back into a rating.

Obviously defense can't be done exactly the same way due to diminishing returns on both parry and dodge (not to mention there is no modelling of miss yet, but I'm just trying to get a dodge/parry # in there).
So what I did
Lambda_Parry(A_p + x) + Lambra_Dodge(A_d + x) = Lambda_Parry(A_p) + Lambda_Dodge(A_d) + 1
A_p and A_d are the raw avoidance in parry and dodge respectively.

I end up with x = k^2*Cd*Cp+k*(Ad*Cp+Ap*Cd)+Ad*Ap/(2K*Cp*Cd+Ap*Cd+Ad*Cp)
I used an equation solver to get this part.

So basically, the issue i'm having is that x is showing increasing returns, which means its wrong. Does anyone know if my mistake is in the modelling of defense with lambda_P+Lambda_D?

For entertainment, the first form of the spreadsheet I made. Its not done yet (obviously) but there will be graphs and the like on here later.
http://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mantone2/shared/DiminishingReturns.xls

No macros, standard office spreadsheet format.
Any comments or the like would be appreciated, thanks.

Honeyblossom
01-12-2009, 06:26 PM
So all this could explain why rawr is trying to fix me up with defense gems/gear before agility as a druid tank? I think I have something like 51 defense rating 830 agility and 150 dodge.

Also valueing dodge rating before strict agility made me wonder when you needed less than 15 agility to get 1% dodge but a massive 19 dodge to get a whole percent of it.

Willeh
01-17-2009, 08:24 PM
- Don't bother with parry rating (unless the item itself is better than what you have already)
- Do not gem for parry. Ever.

Even as a DK I'm not supposed to gem for parry or "bother with parry rating"? Or was this post made before the Death Knights existed? I started WoW again not to long ago and i have an 80 DK frost tank and a warrior tank friend turned me on to this site.

Kazeyonoma
01-19-2009, 10:42 AM
from the intial post:


Deathknight Dodge 88.129021 0.011347
Deathknight Parry 47.003525 0.021275


he includes deathknights, and yes you do not want to stack parry. why? because you're diminishing point is at the same place as warriors, relatively low. That means once you start stacking it (you'll automatically get it from str anyways so why go for gear with it as well?) you'll start hitting higher/harder DRs on it quickly.

to visualize, imagine a curve that gets very very steep very very quickly. THAT is Parry.

Furrio
01-30-2009, 09:13 AM
So according to all these theories, best avoidance is gotten by having much more dodge than parry, given the very exponential diminishing returns on parry as apposed to dodge.
Funny thing, I looked up a couple of the best tanks I've heard of, Ciderhelm and Kungen. They have about same ammount of parry and dodge. What gives ?
I guess it can be said that the itemization available is what causes this. Well if parry is so terrible when it comes to diminishing returns, why would blizz add same ammount of parry as dodge to highest lvl tanking items ?

Satrina
01-30-2009, 10:30 AM
The basic problem is that the content doesn't warrant worrying about avoidance at all. What you're seeing is a side effect of prioritising other stats over avoidance. If you look at the gear, the pieces that happen to have parry on them are best in slot (or close to it). You're getting it just because it's there, not because you go out of your way to get it.

Kavtor
01-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Plus, just the way a lot of gear is itemized. Some of the best items just happen to have parry on them instead of dodge. I think it's part of their suboptimal itemization plan so they can scale up to better designed gear in later instances.

Darvenof
02-02-2009, 12:53 PM
The basic problem is that the content doesn't warrant worrying about avoidance at all.

While I agree completely with what Satrina has said, one additional explanation may do with rage generation. If you dodge an attack, you don't generate any rage. When you parry, you do. Certainly, this is not an issue in raids...but perhaps in 5-man content where rage may not be as plentiful.

Ragefury
02-03-2009, 12:43 AM
Im quite suprised parry is being marked as so inferior to dodge in original post. Im aware its general avoidance guide, but i would like to know your opinions on my case

As a DK i specialized myself into caster tanking. After patch 3.0.8 i got Gargolye and defense sigil, just to be uncritable and socketed rest of my gear only with parry and stamina

With innate high DK parry (from strenght) and Blade Barrier im sitting at about 28% parry (my guild does 10man only) and it goes very well with spell deflection and gives me roughly extra 10% migitation on direct spells when im raid beefed.

My build is Acclimation/Spell deflection for best results in caster type tanking

Galushi
02-03-2009, 12:50 AM
While I agree completely with what Satrina has said, one additional explanation may do with rage generation. If you dodge an attack, you don't generate any rage. When you parry, you do. Certainly, this is not an issue in raids...but perhaps in 5-man content where rage may not be as plentiful.

This is not true. You do *not* gain rage from parrying an attack. When you parry, your next melee swing is hasted, which if not a heroic strike will give you rage, but the Parry mechanic itself does not give you rage. I don't know where this rumor was ever started but its not true.

Darvenof
02-03-2009, 01:38 PM
This is not true. You do *not* gain rage from parrying an attack. When you parry, your next melee swing is hasted, which if not a heroic strike will give you rage, but the Parry mechanic itself does not give you rage. I don't know where this rumor was ever started but its not true.

Yes, quite right. I stand corrected. The parry in-and-of-itself, does not generate rage. The next swing coming quicker perhaps does generate additional rage when compared to having dodged that attack and following with a normal speed swing...but the differences should be minimal. Mea culpa! (That's what I get for thinking I have something to add to Satrina's post). I'll take my shield and go home now.

Nygma
02-04-2009, 09:42 AM
With innate high DK parry (from strenght) and Blade Barrier im sitting at about 28% parry (my guild does 10man only) and it goes very well with spell deflection and gives me roughly extra 10% migitation on direct spells when im raid beefed.

My build is Acclimation/Spell deflection for best results in caster type tanking

Not terribly familiar with Spell Deflection, but the tooltip says direct damage spells. I would assume in that case it doesn't apply to aoes and dots.

If that's the case, then a large amount of the spell damage you'll see doesn't even get mitigated. Add in the fact that the large majority of damage you'll see is physical and that you only get 3% of that limited mitigation for every 10% of parry, I'd think you'd still want to stick with dodge.

Ragefury
02-04-2009, 10:53 PM
My point was to migitate as much spelldmg as I can, thats why Spell Deflection/Acclimation. Dodge doesnt help on caster bosses at all, their melee is always kek. Except of dragons ofc.

Question is if to socket for parry and its limited value with spell deflection, or go straight for stamina. Im gonna test how much it worth lets say with with Gotthik

Satrina
02-04-2009, 11:18 PM
I'm not super familiar with the deathknight mechanics, but let's see. As I understand it, a deathknight gets 25% of their strength as parry rating. To me this implies that it's subject to diminishing returns since it's rating and not straight up parry chance. So, you're getting all the parry from defense, plus whatever from strength. If you have 1000 strength, that's 250 parry rating. Combine defense and strength and whatever parry you get from gear puts you pretty high up the diminishing returns curve. At that point, adding parry through gems is going to be hitting pretty severe DR. You didn't log in your tanking gear, so I can't see what your parry would be at to play with numbers. Now if the parry rating you gain from strength is not subject to DR, that's a whole different story.

The big problem you're going to have is that right now you could be gemming for spirit and tank Gothik without your healers noticing. In a fight that's hard, the question is, is even a highly diminished amount of parry worth it for that extra fraction chance of activating deflection?

Someone who knows deathknight mechanics better than I can probably give a better answer.

Ragefury
02-06-2009, 01:27 AM
Thanks Satrina, unfortunately i cant link armory as my toon is geared and talented for dps atm, raid buffed 29-30% parry due to Blade Barrier (10% undiminished talent). So averrage it would be 10% migitation for direct spells. I have been thinking about it and it really seems not as big addition as lets say 3 points Acclimation. As blizz already said they are buffing Blood of North in 3.1 to be actually useful, its probabaly time to change my tank build

Sry for the offtopic :)

tikidude99
02-06-2009, 05:28 PM
I'm not super familiar with the deathknight mechanics, but let's see. As I understand it, a deathknight gets 25% of their strength as parry rating. To me this implies that it's subject to diminishing returns since it's rating and not straight up parry chance.

This is what I concluded from playing with the numbers myself and looking at the stats in-game. When wearing no gear, 25% of your strength is converted to parry rating, which is subject to DR. This can be verified by taking off all your gear and verifying that your parry rating is greater than 0.

A consequence of this is that for a def-capped DK tank, additional dodge rating is preferable to additional parry rating, as your parry rating will be affected by your high strength and subject higher DP penalties.

I did however notice that the 25 defense from stoneskin gargoyle is not subject to DR - this is easy to verify, just equip a weapon with the rune and no other stats that increase parry, and watch it go up exactly 1%.

Forklift
02-07-2009, 03:44 AM
I've made a spreadsheet to figure out exactly what the marginal avoidance of dodge, defense, and parry ratings are given my current stats. I could post it if people express an interest.

Satrina, why is that chart so "zoomed out"? Why would anyone care what OVER 9000! dodge rating gives? Can you post a chart with, like, relevant values? Dodge/defense/parry ratings below, say, 1000?

Forklift
02-09-2009, 06:19 AM
By the way, here's the excel file: http://ancalimohtar.googlepages.com/AvoidanceDR.xlsx

Put your current stats on the left orange cells, the additional rating on the right orange cells, and it'll help you determine what the net change is in the bottom yellow cells--I use it to choose between and rank different pieces, and also to just find out what 10 rating of each of the different stats come out to be so I know the weight to assign to each when deciding.

Edit: This assumes combat against a level 80, however, and also assumes you have 5/5 in both the parry and the dodge talent, and that you're not a night elf.

tikidude99
02-10-2009, 06:48 AM
By the way, here's the excel file: http://ancalimohtar.googlepages.com/AvoidanceDR.xlsx

Put your current stats on the left orange cells, the additional rating on the right orange cells, and it'll help you determine what the net change is in the bottom yellow cells--I use it to choose between and rank different pieces, and also to just find out what 10 rating of each of the different stats come out to be so I know the weight to assign to each when deciding.

Edit: This assumes combat against a level 80, however, and also assumes you have 5/5 in both the parry and the dodge talent, and that you're not a night elf.

I made a spreadsheet too - then I downloaded the TankPoints mod which implements the same formula and comes up with the exact same result. The calculator (/tp calc) it great for figuring gear "what if" scenarios

Forklift
02-11-2009, 06:08 AM
Yeah I have TP. The problems with using TP's calculator are that 1) you can't put in different starting values from what you have on right there, and 2) you can't use it unless you're logged into your character. I just want a simply excel file to mess around with while I've got wowhead open, checking out some possibilities down the line.

khonnan
02-11-2009, 02:56 PM
Hi there. Just trying to make sure I have my head around DR... Few quick questions: Using dodge as my example.:

1. My Naked Dodge percentage at level 80 is 10% according to the wow interface. 5% of that comes from Anticipation.

a. Where does the other 5% come from? I assumed naked defense and dodge. So I did the maths.
Naked Agility : 113 * 0.01360 = 1.5368% dodge
Naked Defense: 400/4.9185 = 81.32(skill) , 81.32 * 0.04 = 3.2538%
3.2538 + 1.5368 = 4.7906%.
Shouldn't the wow interface show my naked dodge as 9.79 or 9.8% instead of 10? It's normally capable of showing that level of precision. Is it rounding up to 10% or am I shtoopid?

b. When trying to calculate diminishing returns, the only value not subject to DR is the 5% from talents? Naked agility and defense are subject to DR - is this correct?

Thank you in advance for the clarification.

Satrina
02-11-2009, 03:24 PM
Your basic 400 defense for being level 80 is never calculated into DR, only defense gained from gear (this is noted in post #2). If you have 10% dodge when naked and get 5% from Anticipation, your naked dodge chance is 5%.

Forklift
02-12-2009, 07:17 AM
Err 15%?

Satrina
02-12-2009, 07:20 AM
No, if your character sheet says Dodge: 10% when you are naked and you have 5/5 Anticipation, then your naked dodge chance is 10% - 5% = 5% :p

Tandrakh
03-11-2009, 08:49 AM
It can't be said enough, but Thank you all so much for the effort in providing the tanking community with this much valued information. I would also like to thank Whitetooth for his work on RatingBuster (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/rating-buster.aspx) which is a great addon and I HIGHLY reccommend it to anyone.

As difficult as it is for me to wrap my head around this(to me) very complex math, I depend on RatingBuster to help me in my gearing decisions.
My question is if it indeed does take into consideration the diminishing returns as a warrior.

I know it was mentioned earlier, but couldn't tell if it was adressed as being a great tool to determine values for before, or after diminshing returns.

Malvat
03-31-2009, 09:49 AM
Ugh! if only i'd read this b4 socketing 3 dragon's eye with 27parry!!

Kerg
03-31-2009, 02:41 PM
The basic problem is that the content doesn't warrant worrying about avoidance at all. What you're seeing is a side effect of prioritising other stats over avoidance. If you look at the gear, the pieces that happen to have parry on them are best in slot (or close to it). You're getting it just because it's there, not because you go out of your way to get it.

Okay, so I'm looking over my gear this week, and noticed that hey, a LOT of my gear has +Parry on it. And I haven't focused on it at all. It just happened. In the gear spreadsheet I use, I value Dodge to Parry at 8 to 10.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scarlet%20Crusade&n=Kerg)

But like you said, many of the BEST pieces are loaded with Parry. And many of the alternative gear of the same level has BLOCK RATING on it! My thought is Parry is not as good as other avoidance, but at least it IS avoidance. I'd much rather have Parry than Block Rating.

So it's not that simple to just say, okay, let's AVOID Parry gear. Instead I'll take the piece with the highest Armor, Stamina, Defense, and Dodge.... and run like hell from those horrible Parry pieces. Because your choices are very very limited, and because the pieces WITHOUT Parry... probably have Block Rating or Expertise/Hit instead of Parry, neither of which are going to help a warrior survive tanking Sartharian w/ 3 drakes.

As an example, look at the top current chestpieces in the game of equal level (gemming w/ 24 stam blue, 8dodge/12 stam red, 8def/12 stam yellow)...

Dragonstorm Breastplate...............2298 Armor - 100 Strength - 160 Stamina - 52 Defense - 45 Dodge - 58 Parry
Breastplate of Tormented Rage......2298 Armor - 84 Strength - 150 Stamina - 58 Defense - 72 Dodge - 36 Hit
Valorous Dreadnaught Breatplate....2298 Armor - 92 Strength - 151 Stamina - 60 Defense - 58 Dodge - 45 Block Rating
Chestguard of the Exhausted.........2298 Armor - 84 Strength - 159 Stamina - 83 Defense - 49 Parry - 39 Block Rating

Which one is the best for survivability? The one with the most Parry on it... Dragonstorm Breastplate. Not because it has Parry. But because it has Parry instead of Block Rating or Expertise/Hit. And the same is true for majority of the other slots, including neckpiece, shoulders, bracers, gloves, belt, boots, ring, weapon, and shield.

xbobohobox
04-17-2009, 05:46 PM
I believe your Miss DR Calculations are no longer accurate as of 3.1.0

Using your formula I get very different numbers than my char sheet.
As far as I'm aware the Miss value presented on the char sheet is ultimately correct, with the only adjustment being -0.6% if you're dealing with a boss type mob.

These values are taken from my 80 orc DK, without rune of the stoneskin gargoyle on, since that the 1% miss gained from that is immune to DR's (as i've confirmed with testing)

With sheer defense rating here are some of the numbers I had on my char sheet
Defense Rating - Miss%
568 4.6
633 5.12
602 4.88
537 4.36
468 3.8
436 3.52
351 2.84
420 3.4

See if your miss formula can give correct values for miss on this data, I dont believe it can.

My solution to make your formula work was to solve for a new value of the constant K, and 1/c

Given the above data, I get k = 1.003138066
and 1/c = 0.0002820
aka c = 3546.

It doesnt make sense that the miss cap would be 3546, but thats what the data would indicate, per solving the formula.

This leads me to believe that the formula is no longer accurate. Though by plugging in my new values for the constants, the formula does work 99.9999% accurately.

Can I get some others to check this out?
Is there a new formula I should be looking at?

Forklift
04-17-2009, 10:24 PM
bobo, the miss value presented in the character pane is undiminished and non-final. The game does not provide to the player a final miss value.

UvulaBob
04-25-2009, 10:29 AM
I've gotten real interested in the math aspect of these diminishing returns. I understand how the formula ((1/c) = (k/A)) works, but I don't understand why some of the values are what they are. For example, what's the significance of (c) and (k)? Why does Blizzard use those numbers and why is this formula the way it is?

I understand that these are really open-ended questions, but I never got around to re-attempting Calculus after dropping it in college. :confused:

Carmaine
05-21-2009, 07:38 AM
Problem with the Warrior Dodge DR calculation.
I am currently making a spreadsheet for gear comparison and I've stumbled upon a problem. I've used the Dodge DR calculation, but I am getting some off-values. For instance, after using the formula for my current dodge on my warrior, it gave me 25.06% dodge, but according to armory, I am at 25.03%.

Parry is exactly the same, and the value for my block is 0.01% too high.(28.75 instead of 28.74). Is it because I am not using enough decimals or did the value really slightly change since 3.1.0?

EDIT for the block, if calculating with 16.39 from RatingBuster, you get wrong values, while 16.40 from some post I found here seem to be giving proper values after switching gears around.

jere
05-21-2009, 08:22 AM
Try running the calcs with 6 places behind the decimal (to match the Cd values in precision). I was getting pretty much what your character sheet says.

I would doubt it if they changed the values only so much as to make those size of changes (hundreths of a percent) honestly. Probably just a precision issue.

Carmaine
05-21-2009, 08:45 AM
I just redid it and it still gives me wrong values for dodge only.1

=1/((0.956/(Avoidance from Def rating+Avoidance from Dodge+Avoidance from Agility))+1/C_D)
I am using 1/C_d = 0.0113469999853964
Dodge rating / 39.34799 = % of dodge
Agility * 0.0136 = % of dodge
Round Down (Def rating * 4.9185) * 0.04 = more % of dodge (If it's not rounded down and used as a decimal value, it will give fictive dodge that is NOT applied.)

So, I really don't get it.

Edit: here is a download link for it, made it pretty quickly, tell me if you find anything that is wrong in there.

Download Link: http://uploading.com/files/XUXBTA5N/Tanking Gear Comparison V.1.0.ods.html

jere
05-21-2009, 09:21 AM
Are you splitting your agility up? Part of it isn't affected by DR (111) and part of it is (22).

Carmaine
05-21-2009, 09:30 AM
I am only taking the agility that is over my naked agi (in this case, it's only 22). On that, I apply 22*0.0136.

I thought the Agi that is from naked gave no dodge :/

EDIT: Oh god, just noticed MANY calc mistake, currently rereading it. But this is in the gear comparison part, not the base calc part.

jere
05-21-2009, 09:52 AM
I am only taking the agility that is over my naked agi (in this case, it's only 22). On that, I apply 22*0.0136.

I thought the Agi that is from naked gave no dodge :/

EDIT: Oh god, just noticed MANY calc mistake, currently rereading it. But this is in the gear comparison part, not the base calc part.

Naked agility goes into your naked dodge (not affected by DR):

Naked_Dodge = Base_Dodge + Naked_Agil*Agil_coeff

Carmaine
05-21-2009, 09:59 AM
But then that would mean that I am ignoring dodge from somewhere, increasing my theoretical dodge even higher, which would make it way more off than just 0.03% in difference :/.

EDIT: From what I understood, naked agility gives no dodge, only the agility from gear.

jere
05-21-2009, 11:17 AM
But then that would mean that I am ignoring dodge from somewhere, increasing my theoretical dodge even higher, which would make it way more off than just 0.03% in difference :/.

Why is that? What other dodge are you ignoring?



EDIT: From what I understood, naked agility gives no dodge, only the agility from gear.

Naked agility provides dodge not affected by DR that is added to your base dodge (which is also not affected by DR).

From Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-combat_ratings_level_80_a/)

Base Dodge = 3.463600
Agi/dodge => 73.529412
Dodge_rating => 39.347988

Naked agility = 111 => 111/73.529412 = 1.509600% dodge

From your armory:
159 Defense Skill => 159*0.04 = 6.360000% dodge
22 Agil from gear => 22/73.529412 = 0.299200% dodge
421 dodge rating => 421/39.347988 = 10.699403% dodge

Not affected by DR:
Base_dodge + Naked_Agil_dodge+anticipation:
3.463600 + 1.509600 + 5 = 9.973200% dodge not affected by DR

Affected by DR:
def_dodge + dge_rating_dodge+extra_agil_dodge:
6.360000 + 10.699403 + 0.299200 = 17.358603 before DR
DR: 1/(1/88.129021 + 0.956/17.358603) = 15.055580% dodge after DR

15.055580 + 9.973200 = 25.02878% dodge

This rounds to 25.03% dodge

This is what shows on your character sheet on the armory.

Carmaine
05-21-2009, 11:47 AM
Ah, kk, thanks, I see my mistake now. I assumed the base agi gave 5% Dodge, and it actually gave me 4.97ish, meaning the dodge, stupid assumptions, sorry about that and thanks.

jere
05-21-2009, 11:58 AM
I think for human paladins it comes out to 5% oddly enough, but it changes based on race/class.

Satrina
05-21-2009, 01:47 PM
Yeah, I sorta glossed over the derivation of naked dodge in the math and just used "suppose you have 5% dodge naked". I should probably add a bit on how to calculate it.

jere
05-21-2009, 03:36 PM
I think a lot of people have trouble with base versus naked stats, if those are even good terms to use.

I tend to use base to mean how much of a particular stat a class in general has with no regard to race, talents, gear, or contributions from other stats. I then tend to define naked as how much of a particular stat you have without talents or gear (but does consider race and contributions from other stats). Kind of the two extremes when not considering gear or talents.

Like agility for example, I differentiate dodge like this:
Base Dodge = how much dodge you have minus all agility and without gear or talents. The only thing that affects base dodge is class.

Base Agility = how much agility you have regardless of race, gear, or talents. The dodge from this is not considered part of base dodge, but simply referred to as dodge from base agility. Only class affects this.

Naked agility = how much agility you have regardless of gear or talents. Both class and race affect this. It is simply base_agility + agility_from_race

Naked dodge = how much dodge you have regardless of gear or talents. Both class and race affect this. It is simply base_dodge + dodge_from_naked_agility.

I do the same with health defining the base_health (which is class based), base_stamina (class based), naked stamina (race&class based), and naked health (race&class based)

Again, those are my own definitions though.

I noticed in your OP, you kind of use them interchangeably (not that my method is standard). I kind of wish there was a well defined terminology to differentiate the two.

Shiika
05-21-2009, 09:35 PM
The dodge and parry numbers shown on your character sheet do have diminishing returns taken into account




I don't really know, but on my in-game character sheet it's said that numbers do not have diminishing returns tanken into account :

http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/26398/1_DR.JPG

So, how is it really ? Are DR taken in account and blizzard's saying wrong stuff again or not ?

Thx for the anwser and great job by the way =)

Satrina
05-21-2009, 10:08 PM
The tooltip is worded in an awkward way. Since Deathknights have funky stuff with strength converting to parry, I'll use my own stats as a warrior.

I have a base 5% chance to parry, and 5% from Deflection for 10% parry that is not on DR. I'm at 549 defense (733 defense rating). As we see here, I have some parry rating:
http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/483/1_parry.jpg

When I crunch out the numbers (converting defense to parry chance and parry rating to parry chance), I find that my defense before diminishing returns is contributing 5.97% parry, and the parry rating is contributing 5.96% parry, for a total of 11.93% parry.

If I add that to my base and talent parry, I get 21.93%, which is not what we see on the tooltip. So, let's put the parry from defense and rating to the DR. When we do that, they combine to make 9.85% parry, which when added to the 10% from base and parry gives the correct 19.85% parry chance.

So the answer to that question is that the number at the top of the tooltip is your complete parry chance including diminishing returns. The "before diminishing returns" part applies only to the parry chance from rating shown on the tooltip. Same thing happens on the dodge tooltip.

GravityDK
06-06-2009, 05:43 AM
I believe your Miss DR Calculations are no longer accurate as of 3.1.0

Using your formula I get very different numbers than my char sheet.
As far as I'm aware the Miss value presented on the char sheet is ultimately correct, with the only adjustment being -0.6% if you're dealing with a boss type mob.


Your premise is incorrect. The Char panel miss % is wrong, it excludes base miss (5%), talent miss, nelf miss and it does not include dim returns either.

The 0.6% is also missing, you're right.

xbobohobox
06-08-2009, 10:53 AM
Your premise is incorrect. The Char panel miss % is wrong, it excludes base miss (5%), talent miss, nelf miss and it does not include dim returns either.

The 0.6% is also missing, you're right.


There seem to be a lot of confusion about whether or not the values displayed on the character sheet are correct, let me see if I can clear some of this up. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

The character sheet values are correct. When you open up your character sheet, all of the numbers displayed to you as statistics for base stats, dodge, parry, crit, armor, whatever are the correct values that formulas (like satrina's) are trying to reproduce.

If your character sheet says you have 23.45% dodge chance, thats what you have.

The values that are troublesome and inaccurate are the ones displayed when you mouse over one of your statistics to get more detailed information about that stat. For example: mousing over dodge tells me that 600 dodge rating gives me 15% dodge. note that the tooltip here says "before diminishing returns." In this example 600 dodge rating is not really giving me 15% dodge, despite the tooltip, its giving me maybe 12% dodge.

The only avoidance chance that isn't displayed on your character sheet directly is Miss Chance, which you need to mouse over your defense value to see. Because it is displayed in a tooltip, it is not accurate in regards to diminishing returns. This also makes it tricky to test formulas for miss chance.

Also because miss is displayed in the tooltip of defense, and we do not have a stat to actually show us our miss chance, we don't see our base miss chance, miss chance from buffs, or any other factors affecting miss chance.


Another piece of information to keep in mind while looking at character sheet values is that these values are for fighting a mob that is the same level as you. When fighting higher level mobs, there are usually penalties (stat depression) applied to each stat, for example if you're level 80, fighting a level 83 mob, your chance to dodge is actually 0.6% lower than what your character sheet displays. Another example is in physical hit chance, where your chance to hit has a penalty equal to: 0.1% per point in difference between the targets defense skill (level x 5) and your weapon skill and if the difference is more than 10 points, a 1% penalty + 0.4% per point difference after the first 10 points

So basically if you see a value displayed directly on your character sheet, and not in a tooltip for one of the stats on your character sheet, then the information you're looking at is correct for fighting mobs your level. The stats displayed in tooltips ,on the other hand, are not always correct. Miss chance displayed in the tooltip for defense is not accurate, nor is it attempting to represent your total miss chance.

Hope this clears up some of the confusion :)

gary9400
06-30-2009, 12:08 PM
Is there a warrior i guess macro i can use to see what my total percentage of avoidance is and if so is it different than the paladins Thank yall for your help

Molohk
06-30-2009, 12:11 PM
Check out: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f120/44685-block-cap-pure-avoidance-macros.html

gary9400
06-30-2009, 12:15 PM
ty

fjsuarez
08-11-2009, 04:13 AM
I have been trying to calculate my dodge % and I've found some ambiguities.
I am a Blood Elf Paladin, and currently without talents and gear I am sitting at 5.03% dodge.
When calculating my dodge using the formulas in the OP, I always ended up right on what is shown in my character sheet, BUT that is assuming that we have 5% base dodge.
In wowwiki, I found a list of supposed "Base dodge" and they have listed 3.268500% for paladins. Adding the 92 agility from base stats should give 92/52.083333=1.76640% dodge. This adds up to 5.034900%, which is closer to what is shown in my character sheet and more logical than assuming plain 5% base dodge. Now, there are 2 things that I do not understand about this method to calculate base dodge, 1) Where do those 3.2685% come from, and 2) Why isn't the dodge coming from base agility subject to diminishing returns?
Lastly, when I calculate my dodge using 5.03% base dodge, I always end up ~0.3% higher than what is shown in my character sheet. What is the problem here?

I also just realized one more thing.
Patch 3.2.0 (2009-08-04):

Agility: The amount of agility required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This change required recalibrating the amount of dodge a player has with 0 agility by a slight amount as well, so all players will see their dodge percentage vary a small amount.

If agility per dodge % was increased, how come does the formula still works just fine?

jere
08-11-2009, 12:01 PM
Everything comes out correctly for me using the 5.03% you see naked:

1. Agility from gear = 22. The conversion factor for this is 0.0192/1.15 per the 3.2 changes. This gives you 22*0.0192/1.15 = 0.3673 % dodge from agility pre DR

2. You have 12.31% dodge from dodge rating pre DR

3. You have 5.64% dodge from defense pre DR

Your sum dodge pre DR is 0.3673 + 12.31 + 5.64 = 18.3173% total dodge pre DR

Running that through the DR equation gives 15.7386% dodge post DR.

I am guessing you aren't calculting your dodge from agility from gear? That's around a .367% difference before DR is accounted for.

Adding in 5% from talents and your 5.03% naked gives:
15.7386 + 5 + 5.03 = 25.7686% dodge, or 25.77% on your character sheet.

I am not sure what math you are running, but everything comes out ok on this end

fjsuarez
08-11-2009, 02:39 PM
Thank you very much, adjusting for the change in agility it works out now. But still I am confused about the 5.03% base dodge. How do you calculate that? Or is it an arbitrary value?

jere
08-11-2009, 03:17 PM
Thank you very much, adjusting for the change in agility it works out now. But still I am confused about the 5.03% base dodge. How do you calculate that? Or is it an arbitrary value?

You cannot calculate it because:

naked_dodge = dodge_from_naked_agility + base_dodge.

While you can calculate dodge_from_naked_agility, base_dodge has no "calculation". It is that it is. Just like base health for a particular class is X, base dodge for a particular class is Y. Blizzard picked those values for some reason, but we don't know why.

Doombringer
08-14-2009, 12:41 PM
WoW -> Patch Notes -> Current Patch Notes (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/)

Since the Changes in 3.2 to Dodge Rating and Parry Rating.

Dodge Rating: The amount of dodge rating required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply.

Parry Rating: The amount of parry rating required per percentage of parry has been reduced by 8%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply. Parry still diminishes more quickly than dodge.

I would like to just Double check on the topic of:


Gemming for Avoidance

The Diminishing on Parry hasn't changed, so after 540 DEF, you should not Gem for Parry

But

Should you NOW not gem for Dodge also, but instead just gem for Straight Defense?

Bustter
08-21-2009, 03:28 PM
WoW -> Patch Notes -> Current Patch Notes (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/)

Since the Changes in 3.2 to Dodge Rating and Parry Rating.

Dodge Rating: The amount of dodge rating required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply.

Parry Rating: The amount of parry rating required per percentage of parry has been reduced by 8%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply. Parry still diminishes more quickly than dodge.

I would like to just Double check on the topic of:


Gemming for Avoidance

The Diminishing on Parry hasn't changed, so after 540 DEF, you should not Gem for Parry

But

Should you NOW not gem for Dodge also, but instead just gem for Straight Defense?

Why should you not gem for parry? Its 1:1 with dodge now according to blizz... What is the diminishing on parry and dodge? I just regemmed all my gear to dodge/parry for the most part, trying to be more of an avoidance tank then a stam stacked tank..

Satrina
08-21-2009, 03:59 PM
Nono, dodge and parry now have the same conversion before diminishing returns, at about 45 rating to 1% pre-diminishing returns. Parry still hits its diminishing returns far faster than dodge, as shown in Post 29 (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance-2.html#post133637)

Parry is now better than it was, but it is still inferior to dodge. There is, however, a point where adding parry is (briefly) better than dodge. That point is when you have more than 1.88 times your parry rating in dodge rating. So, if you have 100 parry rating and 190 dodge rating, then adding 20 parry rating will net you more avoidance than adding 20 dodge rating. Of course, once you've added that 20 parry rating, 1.88 times that 120 parry rating is 225.6, so you're now adding dodge rating again for a while. Because of this, gemming parry is probably not worth your while even still, just because it's a pain in the ass to keep all that balanced. As soon as you swap a piece of gear around for a fight, your whole "parry balance" will get thrown away.

It's still not a very good idea to try and be an "avoidance tank" anyway.

jere
08-21-2009, 04:46 PM
Well the ratio of 1.875 more applies do "dodge affected by DR" compared to "parry affected by DR". Not the ratings specifically, though they obviously contribute to those values.

The general equation for paladins/warriors is *approximately*:
(character_sheet_dodge-10%)/(character_sheet_parry-10%)

The general equation for deathknights is "dodge is always better".

Satrina
08-21-2009, 09:11 PM
Thanks, Jere, I didn't know the exact math that people had worked. I'll include this in the initial posts later!

jere
08-22-2009, 08:18 AM
No problem.

As a note, the reason I say *approximately* in the warrior / paladin equation is that "-10%" for the dodge side varies from race to race due to naked agility, but all of them are pretty close to 10% (5% from anticipation + *about* 5% from naked dodge). The parry side is good cause paladins and warriors get exactly 10% non DR parry (5% deflection and 5% base).

Luj
08-30-2009, 02:20 PM
Hello,

I've tried to follow the formulas presented here as carefully as possible in order to find my information. I keep getting small (<0.08%) errors, though, which leads me to believe that either the constants used in the formulas are incorrect (possible) or that I am making some small error (likely). I'd greatly appreciate it if somebody could read over my work and comment. Thank you.

First, my stats:
10% dodge and parry when naked (as seen in the character tooltip)
48 agility from gear ("green" agility)
711 defense rating (tooltip says 5.76% miss)
427 dodge rating (tooltip says 23.89% dodge)
177 parry rating (tooltip says 18.32% parry)

Now, after adding in the base 5% chance to miss, I should get a total avoidance of 52.97% (I'm just adding the tooltip percentages), shouldn't I?

Ok, so let's go throught the calculations I did using the formulas next.

Parry = (u_p * 47.003525) / (u_p + 0.956 * 47.003525)
u_p = (177 / 45.25019) + (711 / 122.9625)
so Parry = 18.34067553254883 (~0.02% off from tooltip)

Dodge = (u_d * 88.129021) / (u_d + 0.956 * 88.129021)
u_d = (427 / 45.25019) + (711 / 122.9625) + (48 * 0.0118)
so Dodge = 23.906167676679544 (~0.01% away from tooltip)

Miss = 5 + (u_f * 16) / (u_f + 0.956 * 16)
u_f = (711 / 122.9625)
so Miss = 9.389169308039125 (>1.0% away from what I think it is?)

Together, then, the formulas say I should have 51.6360% total avoidance after diminishing returns.

Thanks in advance for your help.

-L

jere
08-30-2009, 04:11 PM
you are not treating defense correctly. Remember that defense is awarded in integer chunks. Taking 711/122.9625 by itself will give you slightly off numbers. Just take what the character sheet tells you for it (5.76% in your case). I ran the numbers and came out with exactly what your character sheet says you should have.


************************************************** **************

As an example for your dodge:

113 naked agility => 1.3334 dodge
base dodge (from EJ) => 3.664 dodge
---------------
naked dodge => 4.9974% dodge
talents => 5% dodge
------------------
9.9974% nonDR dodge

48 agility from gear => 0.5664 dodge pre DR
+9.44% dodge from dodge rating
+5.76% dodge from defense
---------------------------
15.7664% DR'able dodge

After DR:
13.8923

Add in nonDR dodge:
23.8897 => 23.89 rounded to two decimal places.

Parry look similar.

siubosn
10-16-2009, 09:25 AM
A little help here plez I'm not sure where do I put my values in the equation shown below? and do I subtract the 10% or does the formula do that?
Sorry to be a NOOB but I just want to be clear on its usage LOL :))
Thanks Guys Great work
Zephryus
Warriors and Paladins
Take your total values for dodge and parry from the character sheet. From there, your optimal balance between dodge rating and parry rating is
(character_sheet_dodge-10%)/(character_sheet_parry-10%) = 1.88

Bashal
10-16-2009, 09:29 AM
and do I subtract the 10% or does the formula do that?


Looks like the formula is doing the subtractions for you.

siubosn
10-16-2009, 02:16 PM
ok thanks for that info, but where do i insert my info from my character sheet?

Zephryus

Subpar
10-22-2009, 11:58 AM
I think I have everything here digested however in the OP example for dodge:

1d) Convert agility to base dodge chance: 261 * 0.01360 = 3.5496%

Shouldnt the .01360 be .0118? for the warrior dodgge per agility base? Or am I missing something here

Kazeyonoma
10-22-2009, 01:19 PM
no the .01360 is correct.

currently it takes 73.52 agility to equal 1% dodge.
1/73.52 = .01360

so multiplying your agility by .01360 is equivalent to dividing your agility by 73.52. semantics.

Deevious
10-25-2009, 02:25 PM
Can someone work out what gems I should swap around please, I've been trying myself and keep stuffing it up some how.

Defense: 546 (Defense Rating 719 (+146 Defense))
(Increases chance to Dodge, Block, Parry by 5.84%)
Dodge: 28.18% (Dodge Rating of 703 adds 15.54%)
Parry: 20.34% (Parry Rating of 309 adds 6.83%)
Block: 21.39% (Block Rating of 91 adds 5.55%, Your Block stops 1335 Damage)
Agility: 157 (113 + 44)

This is with all my Tank gear on and no buffs.
My Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khaz%27goroth&n=Deevious)

Subpar
10-26-2009, 08:26 AM
no the .01360 is correct.

currently it takes 73.52 agility to equal 1% dodge.
1/73.52 = .01360

so multiplying your agility by .01360 is equivalent to dividing your agility by 73.52. semantics.

Ok so then his chart is incorrect that has the agility to dodge? Sorry not trying to nit pick as its an amazing amount of work. Just trying to make sure I have everything understood properly.

Kazeyonoma
10-26-2009, 09:31 AM
Hrm, I'd warrant that Satrina tested the number before he posted that it was valid for 3.2 so I'd venture that his .0118 is infact more accurate. I was going by Wowwiki's info of agility per dodge, and it's possible that number has changed. I apologize.

jere
10-26-2009, 10:39 AM
Whitetooth over at EJ has it listed as 0.0118 for patch 3.2 (where they changed the conversions):
Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-combat_ratings_level_80_a/)

EDIT:
And 0.0136/1.15 = 0.0118, so the 0.0118 seems to be correct.

Kazeyonoma
10-26-2009, 01:22 PM
Roger that, I fail for relying on Wowwiki.

Naraka
01-04-2010, 01:39 AM
I'm not sure if this is posted somewhere else, but I was just wondering how things change with the -20% dodge debuff in ICC. (ie stack more dodge, dont worry about it, etc)

Thanks!

Kazeyonoma
01-04-2010, 09:49 AM
nothing changes, the DRs are applied before the -20% so treat your gear exactly the same as outside as inside ICC.

Kaminari
01-26-2010, 12:42 PM
OK question for you all on dk's and avoidance. right now i have gemmed parry/stamina mostly. with some hit tossed in to get me to my caps and such my stats without food are as followed

HP 36,331
armor 26851
def 562
dodge 28.73%
parry 25.04%

this is in frost pres. no horn on no buffs.
my question is mainly. should i regem back to dodge with the icc debuff? so i not gem any avoidance and go straight stamina.
here is a link to my armory if there is anything else u need
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Area+52&cn=Kaminari

just trying to find the best way to go to be the most effective i can be, thanks in advance for any info.

Kazeyonoma
01-26-2010, 02:20 PM
dodge, almost always provides more avoidance even post dr, even post -20% than parry because of the way DR works. ESPECIALLY with DKS who get a lot of parry already from their str->parry conversion. Parry, is a good stat when it comes in gear, it is NOT a good stat to gem for.

Kaminari
01-26-2010, 03:21 PM
ok dodge is always the way i went before till i have multipule ppl yell at me about it. worth to gem the dodge over pure sta? i know dks are avoidance based just not sure where the breaking point is to say ok 65 percent avoidance... go stamina, or if there is even a point where u should break

Kazeyonoma
01-26-2010, 03:34 PM
right now, in ICC< i'd say the stam route is still the best you can do because of how hard bosses hit, and the nature of fights. giving a nice buffer for your healers to survive more hits is the way to go, especially with fights like festergut at 2-3 inhales.

Kaminari
01-26-2010, 03:41 PM
good deal. the biggest reason i was doing the dodge/sta purple was to split it down the middle still get some sta while keeping avoidance high and getting the +9 sta or +6sta socket bonus. the way i looked at it was gain some dodge and get 21 stamina instead of 30.

thanx for the info man i do appreciate it

Kazeyonoma
01-26-2010, 03:54 PM
Yeah, i mean, you won't notice massive gains/losses if you're doing it to get stam socket bonuses in the end you'll gain maybe like 1% avoidance, and lose maybe 15-30 stam, neither of which are zomg gamebreaking.

Kaminari
01-26-2010, 04:22 PM
great thank you very much for all the info i really appreciate it

Felycitas
05-25-2010, 09:44 PM
The miss chance on the defense tooltip does not have diminishing returns taken into account (see below for how to calculate miss chance.) The tooltip is also reporting only the non-diminished amount of miss chance that your defense is contributing - it does not include the basic 5% miss chance that an equal level opponent will have against you.

Specifically... "5% miss chance that an equal level opponent will have against you."

What is it for raid bosses? (since they're 3 levels above you)

What about for heroic bosses? (2 levels)

Felycitas
05-25-2010, 09:47 PM
Also, another question...

What is meant by the "cap" for dodge/parry/miss?

MISS: I'm assuming I can't go higher than 16% miss AFTER diminishing returns.

DODGE: I can't go higher than 88% dodge after diminishing returns?

PARRY: I'm not sure the number but I know it's lower than dodge so I'm assuming that means I can't get higher than X parry after diminishing returns?

..and further..

Why is it that parry hits diminishing returns faster than dodge? (or was that changed with the dodge/parry change a few patches ago)

Satorri
05-26-2010, 05:24 AM
What is it for raid bosses? (since they're 3 levels above you)

What about for heroic bosses? (2 levels)
4.6% for Heroic 5-man bosses, 4.4% (0.2% per level difference) for Raid bosses.




What is meant by the "cap" for dodge/parry/miss?
The 16% Miss, 88% Dodge, and 47% Parry "caps" are the limit to which the diminishing return curve asymptotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptote). In plain English, that is the value you will never quite be able to reach, if you had 2 trillion dodge rating you would still have 87.9~% dodge chance (actually, I could be off on my decimals there, but you get the idea).


Why is it that parry hits diminishing returns faster than dodge? (or was that changed with the dodge/parry change a few patches ago)
Originally, the two stats were separated by rating exchange *and* the cap, but now it is only the cap (the patch only made the pre-DR exchange of dodge and parry the same). The idea is that Parry technically gives you more than Dodge in that it also gives you Parry haste. The net effect of that is pretty small, but it is there and not insignificant if you are a DK with a 2-hander. It is not enough to make Parry a significant threat stat, or really shift the value of the stat, but off the top of my head, I think it makes 1% Parry worth something like 0.07-0.30% haste on average, depending on weapon speed, attacker swing speed, etc.

Felycitas
05-26-2010, 02:54 PM
The 16% Miss, 88% Dodge, and 47% Parry "caps" are the limit to which the diminishing return curve asymptotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptote).So basically the reason people say to go dodge over parry (in a very basic explanation of dodge vs parry) is because you'll get more % for your rating in DODGE as you get higher and higher in both. Right?

MellvarTank
05-26-2010, 02:55 PM
Basically yes.

Felycitas
05-26-2010, 03:16 PM
4.6% for Heroic 5-man bosses, 4.4% (0.2% per level difference) for Raid bosses.Does this also go the other way for lower level mobs?

I'd have an additional 10% miss against a level 30 mob.

jere
05-27-2010, 04:59 PM
So basically the reason people say to go dodge over parry (in a very basic explanation of dodge vs parry) is because you'll get more % for your rating in DODGE as you get higher and higher in both. Right?

Just bear in mind that if you stack dodge to all end but not parry, at some point, parry will be better just because you have advanced so far down the dodge curve. Deathknights don't currently reach that point as they end up with so much parry, there isn't enough dodge available to eclipse it. For warriors and paladins, it is much easier. There is a crossover point where parry become better:

(char_sheet_dodge-10%) VS 1.875*(char_sheet_parry-10%)

Again, that is only for paladins and warriors and that is a rough crossover as those 10% values actually vary with both class and race, but are within a few hundredths of a percent usually.

ee1
02-03-2012, 05:18 AM
Hello!
This is diagram "Dodge" - expected, diminished, marginal diminished and Qexpected - Qdiminished.
http://cs5679.userapi.com/u56329828/docs/868fb7e15a95/untitled.jpg
http://cs5679.userapi.com/u56329828/docs/868fb7e15a95/untitled.jpg

Fetzie
02-03-2012, 05:50 AM
That is using the old (WotLK) stat caps to calculate the diminished values. Cd and Cp are now both 65.631440 for warriors, paladins and deathknights; rather than Cd=88.129021 and Cp=47.003525. It also uses the level 80 base stat conversions (45.2509 per % instead of 176.7189 per %). This leads to a more uniform progression of the DR, as both parry and dodge diminish at the same rate (which is rather faster than in WotLK).