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View Full Version : Tanking Stat Comparison - Live vs 3.0



Fortris
09-25-2008, 02:22 AM
Been doing some direct comparisons of tanking stats etc due to changes in abilities, itemisation and talents for Prot Warriors between current Live WoW and the 3.0 PTR, for my own information.

I took some pictures of the results, and thought some of you might be interested in the results. This will be old news for the regulars, but it might give casuals a better idea of how huge the changes are. Bear in mind that this test was completed with no buffs (not even self buffs), on the same mob (Servant of Razelikh), in exactly the same gear (mixed Badge/T4/T5/ZA gear), on both Live and PTR. I didnt use any trinkets, potions, or anything else that would skew from plain-vanilla results.

Live on the Left, 3.0 on the Right.




Base Stats
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Comp1.jpg VS http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Comp2.jpg

We get a massive boost to Strength, and therefore AP, from reitemisation and the new armor->strength conversion talent. Crit rate is lower because there arent enough points @ 70 (or even at 80) to take Cruelty without giving up talents that give you even more benefit. We lose 20 Defense (which lowers Dodge/Parry/Block quite a bit), and lose more from the conversion of secondary stats into Str on gear. But we do get 5% dodge to somewhat make up for the lost avoidance.



DPS Comparison
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/DPS1.jpg VS http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/DPS2.jpg

Pretty simple one here : our DPS went through the roof.



Ability Damage Comparison

White Melee Swings
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Melee1.jpg VS http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Melee2.jpg

Lower crit ratio due to no Cruelty, but they hit a pissload harder anyway.


Devastate
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Dev1.jpg VS http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Dev2.jpg

Almost double the damage per Devastate.


Shield Slam
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Slam1.jpg VS http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Slam2.jpg

The damage dealt not only more than doubled, the crit rate went through the roof. HUGE buff.


Revenge
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Rev1.jpg VS http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Rev2.jpg

About 30% damage increase from Live.


New Ability - Shockwave
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Shock.jpg

Conal AoE attack which deals a high amount of damage (based solely off AP), and stuns all targets for 2 seconds. Hits hard enough to use it even in single target rotation. Can crit for double damage (no crits recorded here)


Changed Ability - Concussion Blow
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/Conc.jpg

Still has the 5 second stun, but now deals a pile of damage too. Our 2nd hardest hitting ability after Shield Slam now.

veneretio
09-25-2008, 07:15 AM
I'm pretty sure that Shockwave and Concussion Blow will actually do the same damage and your findings of CB being more damage than SW is likely due to a small sample size for your test.

Very cool comparison nonetheless.

Horacio
09-25-2008, 07:36 AM
Great job, this is a useful snap shot to help people wrap thier head around the changes.

On Cruelty: In a lvl 80 build I found what looked to my non-beta testing eye a good spec that included it but I can see it being tough to grab at 70 on the rest. I may be wrong and it may be something most tanks don't feel they can take but I intend to bust my ass to get it.

Resilliance might be a good way to slap on some emergency crit immunity for the patch --> expac time frame if one is continuing to raid. I know with the Season 2 shield, someone did the math a while back and the 31 Res= 471 Def skill needed to gain crit immune. With it equipped, in anticipation of the patch, I'm at about 507 def. so i think I can remain crit immune.

Anyhow, good job!

Stubbi
09-25-2008, 08:01 AM
Just thinking through the changes ... so to keep alive, we need to have 511 def prepatch to not suddenly become crit meat after the patch goes in?

Your screen shots are showing a far more dramatic change in that value then just the expected 20 I thought we'd be dropping.

Dots
09-25-2008, 08:05 AM
I'm pretty sure that Shockwave and Concussion Blow will actually do the same damage and your findings of CB being more damage than SW is likely due to a small sample size for your test.

CB actually does more damage even though the tooltips show the same number. I think the reason for that is that it is a melee attack (it requires a weapon) and as such is affected by 1h spec. Shockwave on the other hand is a spell. You can verify this on any Target Dummy.

mero12513
09-25-2008, 08:09 AM
This is excellent. Thank you, I think this is one of the most concise ways of seeing our buffs I've seen yet.

Some suggestions (I'm a science/testing nerd so forgive me if I seem tedious):
1. Could you post the spec you used? I think it would be helpful in understanding exactly what the testing parameters are.
2. Post a pic of your Character screen with your gear, just so we can see it. Again, this just makes the parameters a little more visible.
3. I (respectfully) disagree that cruelty isn't worth picking up. Well, clarification: I respectfully disagree that cruelty isn't worth picking up *when Beta releases*. If you continue raiding at the release of 3.0, I can see where some of the more defensive talents would be more important. However, I think dropping points from Shield specialization and maybe even from Deflection would be worthwhile to max out cruelty, especially when we consider that we're still going to be more than geared for normal instances while leveling to 80 (in T4/T5/badge gear).

kolben
09-25-2008, 08:23 AM
In your live screenshots you have slightly different stats that I'm trying to figure out, particularly armor. Was this due to buffs you had on live that you didn't on PTR, gear, spec?

Helpful information, thanks for posting it in a way that is tangible and easy to understand. Rawwr me hit harder make mob mad when I kick dem in da jibblies!

Horacio
09-25-2008, 08:25 AM
Just thinking through the changes ... so to keep alive, we need to have 511 def prepatch to not suddenly become crit meat after the patch goes in?

Your screen shots are showing a far more dramatic change in that value then just the expected 20 I thought we'd be dropping.

I'm not certain. I think some of the tanking plate is being reitemized to incorporate more strength so if that's the case, some items may be adjusted more than others. /shrug, I dunno.

Avagro
09-25-2008, 08:32 AM
The missing armor comes from the 15 agility he's lost in 3.0:

126 >> 111 agi - 15 agi lost; that's 30 armor, which is the difference in armor between the two patches :).

knagh
09-25-2008, 08:33 AM
as another data point on the 3.0 gear conversions, here are the diffs i found comparing my current gear to the WoTLK version (based on wowhead).



Stat BC WoTLK Diff
Armor 15678 15678 0
Strength 46 231 185
Agility 38 0 -38
Stamina 484 484 0
Defense 282 239 -43
Dodge 141 125 -16
Parry 29 19 -10
SBR 46 19 -27
SBV 110 110 0
Hit 38 35 -3
Expertise 45 38 -7
which converts to:


Attack Power 370
SBV 92.5
Armor -76
% to crit -1.151515152
Defense Skill -18.14345992
% Dodge -2.838071025
% Parry -1.148571378
% Block -4.152134336
% Miss -0.725738397
% Avoidance -4.712380799
% to be crit -0.725738397
% to hit -0.19035533
% target dodge -0.444162437
% target parry -0.444162437 note that these are pure gear stat differences, they do not include talent changes. the slots which had stat changes were the head, shoulders, chest, wrist, hands, waist, legs, feet, and shield.

i just now logged out in the same armor set that i used to do the gear comparison (hopefully armory will update soon):

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Feathermoon&n=knagh)

kolben
09-25-2008, 08:33 AM
That sounds about right. I haven't had but a couple of minutes to check out the PTR. I think my defense was above 500, but I normally have ~525 - 535 depending on the shield I wear.

kolben
09-25-2008, 08:40 AM
The missing armor comes from the 15 agility he's lost in 3.0:

126 >> 111 agi - 15 agi lost; that's 30 armor, which is the difference in armor between the two patches :).

Ew... that's right AGI is mostly scrubbed from our gear in this change correct?

veneretio
09-25-2008, 10:22 AM
CB actually does more damage even though the tooltips show the same number. I think the reason for that is that it is a melee attack (it requires a weapon) and as such is affected by 1h spec. Shockwave on the other hand is a spell. You can verify this on any Target Dummy.
Hmm... if it requires a weapon that would make sense. Further testing to verify it's affected by 1h spec would be cool to see.

Avron
09-25-2008, 12:42 PM
Thank you for the comparison. I am still uncrittable according to calculations having 80 resilience and 483 defense. Will be testing it on the PTR with my guild running Kara this weekend.

Fortris
09-25-2008, 12:59 PM
Your screen shots are showing a far more dramatic change in that value then just the expected 20 I thought we'd be dropping.

Lots of gear also had its defense value lowered to accomodate the extra strength. For example, the Chestplate of Stoicism has 51 defense rating on Live, but only 34 defense rating in 3.0.

Note that in my screenshot, despite having only 483 defense, i'm still uncrittable since i replaced my beloved Presence of Might with the SSO head enchant. 20 resil on the enchant lowers the defense 'cap' for uncritability to 478.

Fortris
09-25-2008, 01:22 PM
1. Could you post the spec you used? I think it would be helpful in understanding exactly what the testing parameters are.Sure. Bare in mind that i've specced with the intention of continuing raiding inbetween 3.0 and LK release, so the talent choices are more raid centric than levelling/instancing centric.

Live Build : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Li0cZVZ0EtoI0kcest)
PTR/3.0 Build : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhZVItrx0zibIzsGo)



2. Post a pic of your Character screen with your gear, just so we can see it. Again, this just makes the parameters a little more visible.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f372/BlackrazorNZ/WoWScrnShot_092608_081427.jpg

Shadevarr
09-25-2008, 01:58 PM
Did anybody else notice the HUGE hit taken to hit rating?

Caireagin
09-25-2008, 02:08 PM
Most of the stat losses will depend on what gear you're using.

With a huge drop in hit rating, I'm guessing you're using both Bonefist Gauntlets and Girdle of the Fearless. Neither of them have hit rating anymore. Kaz'rogal's Hardened Heart and Aldori Legacy Defender lost 3 rating each, which isn't a huge deal.

Dazhbog
09-25-2008, 02:15 PM
Someone needs to do this for paladins, in a couple of different gear sets >.> I'm having some real trouble wrapping my head around the dual AP/SP scaling.

Minaba
09-25-2008, 03:55 PM
Terrific post Fortris :)

kolben
09-26-2008, 07:14 AM
I had a minute this morning before work to look at the latest from the PTR.

There was a pretty big hit to defense on the badge chest and legs, with gear that I normally wear to raid on live I have ~528 defense, and on the PTR today same gear I had 485.

Now at the same time, while I think on live I have ~600 SBV and ~618 AP unbuffed, it's closer to ~820 SBV and ~1200 AP on PTR.

Apologies if this is not new'ish information.