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Dunkealme
09-22-2008, 02:50 PM
Hi, new to tankspot.

I have some tanking gear pieces (that I am currently not wearing):
Felsteel Helm, Felsteel Gauntles and a green chestpiece with a lot of def rating (+32 i think). The reason I am not currently wearing them is because when I do, even if my def goes up to 448, my imba scores drops.
While if I keep my welfare epics and gem them with def, I get a better imba score.
Also, with both sets Imba says I am overcapped in defense (meaning I am uncrittable, right?)

My Armory Link (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gul%27dan&n=Dunkealme)

My Imba Link (http://be.imba.hu/?zone=US&realm=Gul%27dan&character=Dunkealme)

So is this hybrid set good enough that would let me OT kara or MT the first few bosses?

Obviously I am still working on it, but I get a feeling that I am losing time while working on getting better gear when: 1) I could be in Kara right now (imba again) and 2) WOTLK is coming out soon and Kara will be deserted.

Yup call me noob. It's ok. I've grown a pair and I can handle it.

tcdgais
09-22-2008, 03:23 PM
first off...here (http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/05/20/am-i-ready-for/)...people who ask these questions are usually ready.

though your gear isnt ideal pre-kara gearing...it should get the job done. you do appear to be uncrittable with the def/resil combo (need to reduce chance to be crit by 5.6% if my memory is correct). not to mention you are sitting on a comfortable amount of armor for starting out.

might recommend gemming stamina in your pvp pieces since your avoidance is a tad low, but as you replace those pieces with tanking pieces that will smooth out.

go for it, imo.

Dunkealme
09-22-2008, 03:56 PM
Thanks. Yeah I read tanktips as well and I had an idea of being good enough but then you get those PUGs where they won't look at you if you don't have 490 defense.

Now if I understand correctly, while Defense assures me that I won't get crit hit, resilience just removes the damage from crits? And the one thing that resiliance might have over defense is that resilience absorbs also DoTs while defense doesn't, simple because defense doesn't absorbe damage but removes chances to be hit, but not on spells, correct?

I'll stak up stam, with gems and enchants, like you mentioned. I did notice in the few heroics I did that I was getting hit pretty hard, nothing that a healer couldn't take care of, but I think I'll have to get used to not looking at my health anymore (waaaay low sometimes - hence shield wall / shield block frenzy LOL).

tcdgais
09-22-2008, 09:24 PM
not bad. you understand what is required of you at least. the beauty in defense is there isnt a hard cap. sure there are more efficient ways to obtain more avoidance, but dont turn away extra defense even beyond the required 490. you still earn 0.04% dodge/parry/block (think thats the percentage). so even having 500+ is achieving something.

Optimoos
09-22-2008, 09:34 PM
Now if I understand correctly, while Defense assures me that I won't get crit hit, resilience just removes the damage from crits?

AFAIK, both are a reduction in critical strike chance, which needs to be 5.6% to be uncrittable against boss level mobs. If you mouseover your defense and your resilience and add the crit reduction together and it comes to 5.6%, then you're fine. However, as already stated, you're generally sacrificing avoidance for resilience, so you should look to replace your pvp gear with pve gear. This is not a hard and fast rule, don't replace a pvp epic with a blue which has defense but is going to sacrifice large amounts of stamina. Basically I'd worry about being uncrittable going into Kara, then start building your pve gearset from kara drops and enhance it with heroic and badge items, then keep going from there.

As for the reduction in DOT damage resilience gives you, this will be negligible as most dots will be cleansed off of you as a tank - the avoidance from defense will be better for you long term as a warrior tank.

Megatrohn
09-22-2008, 10:14 PM
Hi there Dunkealme, the posters above have explained how resil and defense works, but one thing you should keep in mind is that be.imba rates items based on level. Therefore, equpping an item with a higher iLevel but bad stat allocation will give you a higher imba score than a lower iLevel item that is excellent. It would be prudent to evaluate items based on their stats rather than iLevel alone (although iLevel IS a decent indicator).

An example would be Shard of Contempt (which is iLevel 115) versus almost any other DPS trinket for melee classes.

Hope that helped!

Optimoos
09-23-2008, 12:35 AM
Decepticon blather

Megatrohn... you, me, some random city where we can wreck stuff. It's go time.

Dunkealme
09-23-2008, 09:03 AM
Thanks all.
But this bring up another question. If Defense cap is a "soft" cap, why are raiding guilds so hung on 490 defense for Kara?
I can understand how it would become an issue later on and I do plan to replace my pvp gear with better pve one as time/badge/drops permits. but you guys are making it sound that it's ok not to have 490 def going into kara as long as you are uncrittable.

On the otherside, when I wear my pve gear that pushes my def to 448 I get better heals and typically a heroic runs smoother. In both gears I am uncrittable... I'll check what my dodge, parry and general avoidance are respectively with both gears, but I doubt it would change much at all.

So I guess that's 2 questions lol
1) why are raiding groups so hung up on 490 def going into Kara
2) With 2 uncrit sets, why is the one with higher def allowing better heals? (less crit heals)

tcdgais
09-23-2008, 12:52 PM
i dont know if i can do your questions justice 1) without writing a small novel here and 2) without robbing you the joys of the research and gaming experience to learn what you are asking.

people get hung up on the "490" defense benchmark because its easy to remember. especially among tanking layman, its easy to recall, maybe not to completely understand. ever heard those conversations in guild chat where a mage is schooling a young tank in pre-raid stats/gearing? bottom line, you have to push the 5.6% crit chance off the hit table. that is accomplished one of three ways: 490 defense, some total amount of resilience (never tried it this way), or a combination of the two (your situation).

i dont really understand the situation you describe in your second question. since you are uncrittable, the amount of stamina and armor (see effective health theory) is actually pretty nice; however, the pvp gear does not have the avoidance/mitigation stats that typically follow suit on tanking gear with those amounts of stamina and armor.

now lets stop discussing it and come back to tell us how well you have started tanking in kara. lol.

Optimoos
09-23-2008, 01:43 PM
When I wear my pve gear that pushes my def to 448 I get better heals and typically a heroic runs smoother.

So I guess that's 2 questions lol
1) why are raiding groups so hung up on 490 def going into Kara
2) With 2 uncrit sets, why is the one with higher def allowing better heals? (less crit heals)

I'm going to answer your 2nd question first because it's a little more obvious - I believe that in a heroic you will never face a level 73 mob (or at the very least this is a very rare occurrence), thus your defense doesn't need to be as high to be uncrittable. The higher your defense, the less crits you take along with increased avoidance. Resilience is only helping you remove crits, you will still be getting hit more so you may be more "difficult" to heal.

As for being hung up on 490 defense, well it's basically the standard for starting raiding. If you are at the bottom end of the gear curve for an instance, allowing a boss to crit you will most definitely be devastating. If you are crittable, there will be a time where you are crit, parried with shield block down, and crushed or crit again, and you will die.

At the end of the day, it depends on the group you're running with. If everyone is at a similar gear level to you, you need to make becoming uncrittable your primary goal. If you're running with people who significantly out-gear you, then it's not as much of an issue, especially if you're just OTing.

Bottom line, in TBC, it is not difficult to get uncrittable. If you're wearing pieces that are not contributing to uncrittable in one way or another, find an "Of the champion" green on the AH, or invest a little more time in finding quests and craftable items that will help you. Looking at your armory right now I might try to go and pick up Dabiri's Enigma, Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard, and your rings being particularly weak, Wind Trader's Band (a 114 ilevel green, should almost be a blue). Although your current resil/defense mix appears to be enough to keep you uncrittable, moving towards more avoidance will help with the healing difficulty you mentioned.

Dunkealme
09-23-2008, 02:11 PM
Optimoos, thanks for your reply.

Yes I will be looking for more avoidance pieces. As part of gemming, I just stam gemmed almost everything I had. Also with enchanting I am aiming to stam boosts, but I now wonder:
Should I start enchanting and replacing stam gems with avoidance stats?
A better question would be:
To what degree I can sacrifice stam gem/enchants for avoidance?

Looking at Raid Zone Minimums (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/warrior-reference/37020-raid-zone-minimums.html) here on tankspot.com it seems I am ok right now on effective health, avoidance... But how much health can I sacrifice to increase avoidance and remove crushability?

Optimoos
09-23-2008, 02:20 PM
Gemming and enchanting for stam is the way to go when you undergear content, for sure. Don't stop doing that for avoidance gems/enchants. Let the avoidance come on your gear as it improves. Basically the only time this comes into question is in Sunwell when you have to deal with the zone debuff Sunwell Radiance, and even then some tanks stick with pure EH and some choose to start gemming avoidance to make up for the debuff - a personal choice. Apart from the Sunwell case, the only other time I'd personally gem for avoidance is on older or duplicate gear which you will use for farm content.

To comment regarding enchanting your boots, I would suggest that you choose Boar's Speed for your boots over the straight +stam Fortitude enchant - the difference of 3 stam is far outweighed by the movement increase (pallies who spec PoJ don't need to do this).