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Foolishness
09-21-2008, 06:20 AM
trying to decide on a good DKP system for my guild in WotLK.

Im thinking of a modified suicide kings with dkp (that you have to spend ALL OF to trump and item) for 10 mans,

and possibly a 0 sum with decay for 25 mans. I have never used a decay system for zero sum, or regular DKP. I was hoping anyone with a good decay system could let me know how theirs works.

My aim is basically to allow new members to eventually catch up on the 'DKP gap' which is produced by a 0 sum system.

orcstar
09-22-2008, 06:59 AM
I've been breaking my head over dkp as well.

In my old guild a lot of things could change only the dkp-system was set-in stone. It was utter frustration to see how it held us back. Massive amounts of dkp were built up and people would rather farm old content (which yielded more dkp) then go for new bosses.

At the moment I'm looking for something which rewards recent (as in last month or 2 months) activity, goes against saving massive amounts of dkp and stimulates people to progress. (was thinking about something which decreases your dkp by 25% each week and maybe only rewards dkp for killing new bosses and a set amount for the clear up to that new boss.)

tourette
09-22-2008, 07:14 AM
World of Warcraft (English) Forums -> Guild Loot Distribution Systems (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14733001&sid=1)

Thats a pretty good read about dkp-systems. However there is no perfect system and it will always depend on the guild/people your running with.

Looking forward to wotlk and 10-man raiding, i tend to fancy a pure suicide kings system or even the standard need/greed system provided by blizz. It's simple, easy to understand and there is no heavy maintainence needed. However this will require a group of adult players who understand the "don't be an asshole"-rules.

Satrina
09-22-2008, 07:18 AM
We're changing to EPGP (EPGP - WoWWiki (http://www.wowwiki.com/EPGP)) when WLK drops. I actually just yesterday modelled a 41 person roster (including member turnover) out to 300 raids and I am really liking what I see in terms of numbers and how the loot rotates over time. The fact that it uses a ratio really keeps things in check.

Lore
09-22-2008, 07:30 AM
The system we used, that worked quite well:

Set prices, set rewards. For example, attending a Kalecgos kill was worth 5 DKP, and his Dragonspine-Encrusted Longblade was worth 100. Things scaled up and down from there, based on item values, usually in increments of 20 DKP. So rings were 60, boots were 80, chests were 100, etc.

2 DKP for showing up on time. 5 DKP per hour of attempts on progression nights (basically worth a boss kill every hour). Loot that no one wanted for main spec would go for free to offspecs (ie: resto shaman taking enhancement gear). Sidegrades (as determined by the officers on a case-by-case basis) and crafted items were half DKP. When an item drops, people interested send me a whisper, whoever has the highest current DKP wins it and is charged the set value. You can't win loot over anyone else until you've attended for a full reset (though usually it didn't matter anyway because either no one else wanted the item or they had more DKP than 0).

Separate DKP pool per instance set; this not only keeps people interested in picking up stuff they missed from the last instance (because they've got DKP they can only spend) but also encourages attending the new instance because their old DKP is worthless. Also helps knock down inflation.

Now, this is designed for a hardcore raiding guild that doesn't want to get up in arms over loot. It worked out well for us because it's very hands-off, very little room for drama since the numbers pretty much show everything. If someone's got more DKP than you, it's because they've either contributed more or been rewarded less.

Sharlos
09-22-2008, 09:36 AM
eh, loot council works really well for our guild, very little administration required.
We base the loot on your performance, your reliability (attendance), and how much loot you've already received.

Prunetracy
09-22-2008, 09:46 AM
We're changing to EPGP (EPGP - WoWWiki (http://www.wowwiki.com/EPGP)) when WLK drops. I actually just yesterday modelled a 41 person roster (including member turnover) out to 300 raids and I am really liking what I see in terms of numbers and how the loot rotates over time. The fact that it uses a ratio really keeps things in check.
I would love to use EPGP, but I haven't found a good way to track it yet. The mod uses Officer notes to store numbers, which is both functionality that I don't like and useless for me since I raid with a guild-alliance.

If anyone knows an easy way to keep track of EPGP, I'd love to hear about it. Also, Satrina, how did you do your simulation?

Satrina
09-22-2008, 10:02 AM
I'm just going to write my own for our guild, yeah. Maybe 2-3 times a night people get "gkicked" for dumb jokes/shenanigans/silliness and then reinvited. Storing stuff in officer notes just isn't going to work for us =)

There are instructions on how to modify EQDKP to do EPGP here: House of Elders / Implementing EPGP with EQDKP the House of Elders way... (http://www.houseofelders.org/viewtopic.php?id=2258)

I wrote a Lua program with a table of 41 people with predicted attendance, then functions to simulate making a raid with waitlist, "killing" bosses (and attempts at bosses), and then loot "drops". Iterate that 300 times and see how it came out.

Celandro
09-22-2008, 10:34 AM
I use the Ni Karma system
Poseidon Guild :: View topic - Ni Karma System (http://www.poseidonguild.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=616)

Its very simple
You get points for whatever reason
You have 3 options when an item drops: Spend half your points, spend 10 points, spend nothing (offspec only)
Once you make your choice, everyone who made the same choice /rands, you add in half your points and highest total wins.
Each tier is seperate but convertable to the next tier at a 4 to 1 ratio
Tracking is mod + simple php page that reads the .lua file


Main benefits:
Very simple
Randomness prevents point hording on keeping yourself exactly 1 point above your competition
You can give rediculous numbers of karma for wipe nights (like archi) or for any reason at all and it will leave the system fairly quickly due to people spending half their points


We have had almost no issues in months since we implemented this system. Only minor issues have been
1) If the person tracking does not have 100% attendence, they must make sure that the people who handle tracking update thier .lua file from some central site
2) WoW crashes can lose mod info
3) Low attendence people can get very highly contended items if they save up points (had archi bow go to a low attendence hunter cuz the high attendence hunter blew his points on the supremus weapon)

Any system with fixed point generation and fixed costs is likely to end up horribly skewed and need to be scrapped/heavily modifed. I prefer fixed points and variable costs (auction based or % based systems) OR variable points and fixed costs (null dkp).

Jorge
09-22-2008, 01:19 PM
If anybody is interested, I managed to plug the whole EPGP system into the EQDKP+ (http://www.eqdkp-plus.com) PHP code. It even works with configurable decay rates.
I mostly sticked to the very helpful post of Moxley from House of Elders over >here (http://www.houseofelders.org/viewtopic.php?id=2258)< and stuffed the changes he made into EPDKP+ by visual comparison and common sense.
I can provide a complete zip (or whatever) package one has to unpack into their eqpdkp-ready webserver, change the config.php to fit the servers mysql database and alter the _config table in the database for server_name and server_path. See my post >there (http://www.houseofelders.org/viewtopic.php?pid=20205#p20205)< for complete instructions

Of course this isn't safe from updates to EQDKP+, which will very likely happen, come WotLK. Should be not too hard to alter the code again, I suppose though.

Bugs are: Strange decay behaviour when changing older raids and manually adding items to past raids.

Andenthal
09-22-2008, 04:35 PM
I understand why some use a "decay" in their system. To me it doesn't make sense. They dont want players to continually farm SSC when the guild is on the verge of clearing BT.

The solution I use it to only award DKP for the current Tier of progression. Once you kill 2 (or whatever) bosses in T6, T5 no longer awards DKP. You can still do these instances, but they will no longer cost or award DKP. Players still usually want to come to get "free" gear, but they also have to show up to T6 to get DKP.

Jorge
09-22-2008, 11:05 PM
I understand why some use a "decay" in their system. To me it doesn't make sense. They dont want players to continually farm SSC when the guild is on the verge of clearing BT.

The solution I use it to only award DKP for the current Tier of progression. Once you kill 2 (or whatever) bosses in T6, T5 no longer awards DKP. You can still do these instances, but they will no longer cost or award DKP. Players still usually want to come to get "free" gear, but they also have to show up to T6 to get DKP.

Decay in EPGP is used to prevent players from hoarding DKP and passing on items which would be an improvement. The sooner you spend your points, the more valuable they are.
Decay for gearpoints is used to display the value of gear over time. Your super-item from half a year ago is now maybe only 10% the value of when you purchased it, therefore your overall point ratio is higher than somones who just bought the item a few days ago (think BT farming for 7 months).
To solve the problem with different tier instances, just use a seperate DKP pool for every tier.

Satrina
09-23-2008, 04:41 AM
The solution I use it to only award DKP for the current Tier of progression. Once you kill 2 (or whatever) bosses in T6, T5 no longer awards DKP.

Yes. When we move up a tier all of the instances in the previous tier go on the free list and they are no longer targets for raid nights. People can go PUG it up or form offday guild raids all they want.

bludwork
09-23-2008, 10:27 AM
We use a combination of dkp and loot council. We track dkp with the website and everything but it's hidden to everyone but officers. On most rolls it's just pure dkp, however if necessary we override it. This approach removes much of the bias from pure loot council (since we have dkp) but allows us to gear up a tank or healer who has been getting shafted week after week because he just doesn't have enough dkp to win loot.

Andenthal
09-23-2008, 01:48 PM
Decay in EPGP is used to prevent players from hoarding DKP and passing on items which would be an improvement. The sooner you spend your points, the more valuable they are.
Decay for gearpoints is used to display the value of gear over time. Your super-item from half a year ago is now maybe only 10% the value of when you purchased it, therefore your overall point ratio is higher than somones who just bought the item a few days ago (think BT farming for 7 months).


I suppose my solution is a bit simpler - maybe too simple honestly. The way I prefer to do it discourages players from NOT spending points. Little bit harder for them to hoard points when they aren't receiving any.

Optimoos
09-23-2008, 01:56 PM
My guild had a major problem with standard DKP in that people were hoarding their points to guarantee themselves that one drop they really wanted, which ended up holding back the raid in general as people were not taking pieces of gear that would be upgrades for them because it would knock them out of first in line for that other piece they really wanted. After talking to some other guilds on our server about the issue, we ended up transitioning to a wishlist system. Here's a copy/paste from our forums on the implementation:


How it works - it's just like it sounds, you create a "wishlist" of drops you would like from the 25-man instances we are running. Tiered instances are paired together, so you will have 1 wishlist for SSC and TK combined, and 1 wishlist for Hyjal/BT.

Key points:

1) Your wishlist can only contain 10 items for an instance set. You can also create a 3-item off-spec wishlist. All items on your wishlist should have their correct names and be spelled correctly, also indicating which boss and which instance they drop from.
1a) Resilience items are always off-spec items, unless being used by a tank to reach crit-immunity.
2) The 10 items should be ordered in priority of which you most desire to which you least desire.
3) When an item drops, wishlists will be checked, and the person with the item highest on their wishlist will receive it. That position on their wishlist will be "consumed" and cannot be modified or re-assigned at any point after that.
3a) Wishlist modifications are acceptable under reasonable circumstances. Reasonable circumstances are considered spec changes, loot buffs and nerfs, or new loot introduction. Unreasonable circumstances are not having your mind made up, discovering someone elses wishlist order and wishing to "outbid" them
4) If nobody has it on their wishlist, an on-spec roll will be called.
5) If nobody wishes to roll for on-spec, off-spec wishlists will be checked. If it is not on the off-spec wishlists, an off-spec roll will be called.
6) Every raid you attend will gain you 1 "point" - in the event of a ranked tie on two or more wishlists, the character with the highest points will be given the option to spend ALL of their points (no exceptions) to receive the item over another person. If nobody chooses to spend their points, the item will be rolled for between the tied characters.
6a) All current DKP will be transitioned to points at 50 dkp per point, to carry over existing effort to the new system.
7) Special items such as mounts (ie: Ashes of Alar) cannot be placed on your wishlist and will always be free rolls.
8) All new members to the guild must complete 3 25-man raids to be eligible for loot (on your 4th raid your wishlist will be valid).
8a) Players with multiple characters which are raid capable are allowed only a single wishlist for their core raiding character. You will be allowed to roll for on-spec and off-spec loot.


Due to our raids falling apart over summer vacation, I have since stopped raiding with this guild and moved to a new guild on my warrior where all loot is simply given out by the raid leader - again, this solves the issue of people hoarding points and is less administrative than something like wishlist, but it can introduce issues with favoritism when desired items like Tsunami Talisman or The Skull of Gul'dan drops (these problems always seem to crop up with trinkets, I dunno why).

Satrina
09-23-2008, 02:04 PM
I suppose my solution is a bit simpler - maybe too simple honestly. The way I prefer to do it discourages players from NOT spending points. Little bit harder for them to hoard points when they aren't receiving any.

That's the purpose of decay in EPGP. If you don't get gear points (by taking loot) to match the effort points you've earned, then your points decay without having done you any good at all - so you may as well take loot.

Wrosh
09-24-2008, 01:31 AM
Our guild is currently using /roll in ten man content and using a Fixed Price Fixed Income system in T5+ content.

For Wrath we are definatly going to keep /rolling in ten man content and most likely going to remain using a Fixed system in 25man content.

Our reason for rolling is that as soon as you introduce DKP to 10man content without any standby DKP (which we have never used) raid spots suddenly have to go out with a lot more thought and tact instead of just inviting what will work. It is a double-edged blade however as it is more likely to "waste" loot when you have invited such a misfit and he wins the roll.
To give you an example we have got a warlock in our guild (Class Leader and a 98% attendance over 7 months) who has been at 25 kills of Malacrass -also a high attendance as we had a late start- and out of the 3 Hoods of Hexing that lost he lost all rolls. As we haven't done VR in months, are currently working on Vashj instead of Archimonde/Gorefiend/Kael he is still using the crappy T4 helm.

As to DKP in 25man raids I (being the DKP admin myself) can only say one thing. Don't forget that DKP is intended to be a fairer way of /random then /random is itself. Loot assingments that you didn't want to happen will still happen as people will hoard points or other things might happen. We haven't had any DKP drama up until now which solely lies in the website being squished and me having a completly insecure backup which therefore was not published. In Wrath we will mod our EQDKP so that people can only see the order and not the exact amount of points.

bungernut
12-17-2008, 12:03 PM
I believe that we've taken the best parts of several systems to create a very successful system.

Roll in 10 mans

25-mans
DKP Earned
1) Progression raids are worth 10 DKP an hour, 10 DKP ironman bonus (>95% time)
2) Farmed raids are awarded per boss (~5 DKP depeding)
3) DKP is awarded the same for those on a wait list as those in the raid

DKP spending
1) closed bidding to the ML when the item is called via whispers
2) Winner pays second highest bid +1
3) Offspec/Alt max bid limited to less than 50 DKP
4) Minimum bid varies on item (recipies = 0, gear = 30, etc)

Guild Rank is based on attendance in the last 45days. Generally those above 80% are our hardcore raiders and receive invites first to raids. Anyone can improve their attendance even if they are waitlisted, so the system corrects itself.

If you want more details PM me.

Porcini
12-17-2008, 02:45 PM
Prune - you can in fact set up dummy users in EPGP, allowing you to award points to people outside of your guild. There's information about how to do this in the EPGP documentation.

Having investigated loot systems for several years, and having had experience with Suicide Kings, and FPZSDKP, I can say without reservation that EPGP is the best system we have ever encountered. It's transparent, flexible and fair - since we implimented it, we've had continual praise from the guild, and everyone seems very satisfied with it.

Bidding systems, especially closed bidding, are open to collusion and also don't allow your raid to discuss who the item is actually best for. A great majority of the time EPGP PR is ignored, because the item is a bigger upgrade for someone with lower PR and people are happy to pass. I should mention that this is always initiated by the bidders, not the ML/raid leader/officers - I personally think the "loot council" approach to loot distribution is flawed, even with the best intentions. Encouraging your guild to be thoughtful about taking loot, and to consider who else is bidding makes a great loot system like EPGP even stronger.

Wasshoi
12-19-2008, 05:33 AM
Zero Sum works okay, though im not too sure about decays - i guess it depends on how you reward your troops (ie attendance/show up bonus or pure looted item = dkp)

Though if i may, for zero sum dkp - it might be a good idea to have a positive sum dkp.... (instead of equalling to zero - the sum should be... say... 1000).

Why?
1) a positive total sum will mean that theres a lot more people with +'ve dkps instead of -'ve. Even though their standing remains the same - having a positive value in your dkp account looks much neater (since some raiders may equate DKP to their Credit Card account *cough*)
2) It means new members can start earning DKP right away but would still get a handicap over 'most' the older and time-tested raiders but can start accruing and using dkp right away. (you may opt to equalize their dkps at the end of the probationary period).

Yoshimitsu
04-15-2009, 01:01 AM
i recommend GildenDKP - Raidmanagement, DKP Hosting, Guild hosting (http://www.dkp4guilds.com/)

the best guildhosting system that i know
my guild is more than satisfied with it :)