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View Full Version : Tanking dagger? WTH?



mero12513
09-19-2008, 03:15 PM
Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/september/8962/boeepic_namlakssupernumerarysticker.jpg)

Somebody please explain this item to me.

Gneecapper
09-19-2008, 03:16 PM
Pre BC tanks used daggers frequently and post BC there are still some decent tanking daggers if other items are not available.

Evelaula
09-19-2008, 03:17 PM
Man the animations will look silly but statistically it should perform the same as any other weapon type. Does however have serve style crampage. Lack of stam sucks too.

Keshiji
09-19-2008, 03:25 PM
Less normalized weapon speed hence less dmg on some spells, no? Aka daggers = baaaad choice

Forklift
09-19-2008, 03:42 PM
Daggers are bad news for Devastate. This dagger has no EH stats. All you're getting out of equipping this is 1.5% avoidance. The rest is DPS stats.

This is not a tanking dagger. This is a strange rogue offhand.

Lore
09-19-2008, 03:50 PM
Paladins can't use daggers as well, so yeah. It's pretty much just bad.

TomHuxley
09-19-2008, 03:51 PM
Can DKs or druids wield them? Perhaps offhand for DKs?

Lore
09-19-2008, 03:54 PM
Druids can, but druids are going to use a feral staff.

Origin of Nightmares - Item - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40280)
Journey's End - Item - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40388)

DK's will use twohanders.

TomHuxley
09-19-2008, 03:58 PM
Meh, maybe with tanking offhands there will be situational usage for druids. And I've seen several DKs inquire about DW tanking (not a good idea IMO, but hey, why not let them if they really want to?).

I assume they must be trying to solve some desire rather than tossing out a PoS.

Lore
09-19-2008, 04:00 PM
Druids also can't parry :P

MontanaTaur
09-19-2008, 04:09 PM
Meh, maybe with tanking offhands there will be situational usage for druids. And I've seen several DKs inquire about DW tanking (not a good idea IMO, but hey, why not let them if they really want to?).

I assume they must be trying to solve some desire rather than tossing out a PoS.

Druids can't dual-wield. So the only way we could use a dagger like this would be if they made an "off hand frill" item with feral attack power and other feral stats. I've never seen such an item, ever. Most of those off-hand frill items are caster items.

I'm thinking it is just a freaky item. Can't imagine who would use it, other than maybe a DW tanking DK...although as others have said, the intent is for them to use a 2-h.

Alent
09-19-2008, 04:47 PM
The End of Dreams is 1H, but it's not an OH...

yeah, that dagger's got me stumped, too.

tobarstep
09-19-2008, 04:51 PM
For a rogue's evasion tanking set? Or maybe for rogue solo-grinding? That's about all I can come up with.

MonkH
09-19-2008, 04:51 PM
Druids can, but druids are going to use a feral staff.

Origin of Nightmares - Item - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40280)
Journey's End - Item - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40388)

DK's will use twohanders.

DKs can Dual wield think itll be better for tanking not sure tho 2x tanking 1h;ers surly better than a 2h;er?

veneretio
09-19-2008, 05:00 PM
Somebody please explain this item to me.
It's to distract us from actual issues they don't want us to complain about ;)

Karih
09-19-2008, 05:15 PM
I could see that dagger getting used in an OH for PvP Rogues. Yeah it doesn't have resilience, but it has dodge and parry which can be useful to rogues, which they don't have alot of.

thedrawrf
09-19-2008, 05:24 PM
Wow that is a thing of beauty. Think of it, more avoidance than the sun eater, on a dagger, plus +hit too. Wow.

Huckle
09-19-2008, 05:42 PM
What about and encounter like Vael in BWL. I didn't tank with my warrior then (druid actually) but IIRC the warriors used a dagger (name escapes me) due to it's fast speed and unlimited rage for HS spam.

Forklift
09-19-2008, 05:58 PM
The fastest swords are 1.50.
The fastest daggers are 1.30.

That's 15% more heroic strikes per unit time, going to the dagger. Except you lose weapon damage from AP at the rate of 2.4 to 1.7. You never want a dagger, even for HS spam.

Thinking about this more, however, I think perhaps DKs will use two-handers for DPS and two-weapons for tanking, thematically. It makes sense--DKs can share two-handers with arms and fury warriors (all three want DPS stats), and share one-handers with prots (both--or all three if prot pallies also want these weapons--want tank stats).

Schleppy
09-19-2008, 11:51 PM
The fastest swords are 1.50.
The fastest daggers are 1.30.

That's 15% more heroic strikes per unit time, going to the dagger. Except you lose weapon damage from AP at the rate of 2.4 to 1.7. You never want a dagger, even for HS spam.

Thinking about this more, however, I think perhaps DKs will use two-handers for DPS and two-weapons for tanking, thematically. It makes sense--DKs can share two-handers with arms and fury warriors (all three want DPS stats), and share one-handers with prots (both--or all three if prot pallies also want these weapons--want tank stats).

Heroic strike gets no penalty as it's not a normalized attack. Daggers used to be a tanking weapon of choice before devestate was changed to be worth getting because HS was not normalized and your weapon was irrelevant to sunder or shield slam.


Having said all that it looks to be more of a DK offhand tanking weapon assuming they can use daggers, otherwise it's worthless to anyone other then a fury or arms warrior offtanking now and then.

Satrina
09-20-2008, 12:42 AM
Oh noes, a dagger!

Remember this? Dagger is not necessarily a dirty word (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/blogs/satrina/427-dagger-not-necessarily-dirty-word.html)

Yeah, that will apply just the same in WLK. Of course, given a reasonably equivalent iLevel sword/mace/axe you'd use that instead - no question.

Now look at that thing. It has great stats. It's BOE, so could be a world drop that you have ready to roll the moment you hit 80. Depending on what you're using at the time you come across it at 80, it may well be an upgrade for you. Hell, if you have an iLevel 175 weapon in hand that dagger will be an unquestionable upgrade. For some people who don't raid or have just had bad luck with the Sun Eater 2.0 (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/general-discussion/39564-suneater-2-0-a.html), it may be the best upgrade they can reasonably find. For some, it may be the best upgrade they can expect for some time. Of course, people will go omgdaggernoob! Ignorance is bliss and all that.

(And Schleppy is correct, HS as nothing to do with anything here. Next attack abilities don't get normalised.)

Hypatia
09-20-2008, 02:46 AM
You know...a fury warrior with a dagger would tank reasonably nicely. ;> Then again, they'd probably be all up in the boss's grill with a two-hander.

Forklift
09-20-2008, 01:37 PM
Oh noes, a dagger!

Remember this? Dagger is not necessarily a dirty word (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/blogs/satrina/427-dagger-not-necessarily-dirty-word.html)

Yeah, that will apply just the same in WLK. Of course, given a reasonably equivalent iLevel sword/mace/axe you'd use that instead - no question.

Now look at that thing. It has great stats. It's BOE, so could be a world drop that you have ready to roll the moment you hit 80. Depending on what you're using at the time you come across it at 80, it may well be an upgrade for you. Hell, if you have an iLevel 175 weapon in hand that dagger will be an unquestionable upgrade. For some people who don't raid or have just had bad luck with the Sun Eater 2.0 (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/general-discussion/39564-suneater-2-0-a.html), it may be the best upgrade they can reasonably find. For some, it may be the best upgrade they can expect for some time. Of course, people will go omgdaggernoob! Ignorance is bliss and all that.

(And Schleppy is correct, HS as nothing to do with anything here. Next attack abilities don't get normalised.)Straw man. First of all, I never claimed HS suffers from AP normalization--but if you're HSing at all, you're Devastating on-cooldown, which DOES suffer from normalization. Daggers are not necessarily bad tanking weapons, just like a freaking caster weapon would not be a bad tanking weapon, if you had such bad alternatives that the base weapon damage is that far off.

But that is not the point.

The point is, given reasonable alternatives, dagger are fail tanking weapons. And if an item is only useful when there are no alternatives within 20 ilevels? That's a fail weapon.

Ciderhelm
09-20-2008, 02:01 PM
I'd suggest actually reading Satrina's blog entry before typing. There have always been situations where Daggers can be better given the options available, and flatly saying that they should never be used is ridiculous.

Heroic Strike does have everything to do with this. It scales a whole lot better with Weapon Speed than Devastate does with Attack Power. Not to suggest that's a hard and fast rule in Wrath given our new AP levels, but it's something good players will keep in mind instead of passing up a genuine upgrade.

Satrina
09-20-2008, 02:19 PM
The point is, given reasonable alternatives, dagger are fail tanking weapons


Of course, given a reasonably equivalent iLevel sword/mace/axe you'd use that instead - no question.

Nifty.

Also:


Somebody please explain this item to me.
He asked, and I answered. A strawman argument reqires an opposing viewpoint to refute. I was answering a question.

Forklift
09-20-2008, 02:24 PM
I'd suggest actually reading Satrina's blog entry before typing. There have always been situations where Daggers can be better given the options available, and flatly saying that they should never be used is ridiculous.

Heroic Strike does have everything to do with this. It scales a whole lot better with Weapon Speed than Devastate does with Attack Power. Not to suggest that's a hard and fast rule in Wrath given our new AP levels, but it's something good players will keep in mind instead of passing up a genuine upgrade.And you may want to re-read my posts before you, once again, attack the straw man. "Given the options available" is code for "I'm not willing to admit that for 95% of cases, daggers are fail. I'm going to instead focus on repeating that the 5% exists, which nobody cares about."

If you're going to talk about that 5%, you might as well talk about that 1% when a caster weapon is your ideal tanking weapon.

Also, I read that link. In fact, I remember reading Berg's gear rankings and checking out all the daggers he listed--and getting the Warp Splinter dagger or whatever it's called, and then as soon as I got a weapon that was at all comparable, vendoring the dagger.

Now, to return to the original point, (what Blizzard intended this weapon to actually do) warrior tanking is not it. If you are lacking in any comparable alternatives within 20 ilevels, this may serve in the short term as a tanking main hand. But I think that short of being an odd rogue offhand, this might be the beginning of a new philosophy re: DK tanking. Like I said before, the standard tank weapon setup for DK might be dual-wield. If that's the case, parry and dodge would both be useful, and daggers probably wouldn't be a problem, since specials rarely use off-hand attacks, and thus AP normalization wouldn't hurt it. Fits the rapier/dagger combo Renaissance duelers sported.

Forklift
09-20-2008, 02:30 PM
He asked, and I answered. A strawman argument reqires an opposing viewpoint to refute. I was answering a question.

Here's the straw man whacking:


Of course, people will go omgdaggernoob! Ignorance is bliss and all that.

And you didn't answer the (implied) question at all. The question is: "For what did Blizzard intend this item to be used?" Not, "In fringe cases, who could possibly make use of this weapon for the short term until he gets a blue 15 ilevels below it?"

I mean, this would benefit a rogue for far longer than a warrior tank. But its stats are still wasted itemization points, to a large degree, for a rogue. What class/spec could possibly use this weapon to its full intended effect? That is what I'm trying to discuss.

Satrina
09-20-2008, 02:45 PM
And you didn't answer the (implied) question at all. The question is: "For what did Blizzard intend this item to be used?" Not, "In fringe cases, who could possibly make use of this weapon for the short term until he gets a blue 15 ilevels below it?"

In TBC, a person with Grom'tor's Charge who was still trying to get a Sun Eater, and not yet having access or luck with a King's Defender was hardly a fringe case. (Note also that Grom'tor's is iLevel 109 to Unrequited's 115, and the Unrequited is unquestionably an upgrade to that blue item. iLevel is by no means a measure of intelligently distributed item budget - see T6 warrior tank helm)

Sure, maybe this is designed for a DW Deathknight tanking setup. Sure, maybe the drop rate on the Red Sword of Courage is high, or there are other easily attainable items that will make a warrior pass over this particular weapon. The point is, we simply don't know right now.

Many people who are immediately dismissive of daggers do so because they've heard someone say "daggers suck at Devastate because of normalisation". They have no clue as to why beyond that - they're just parrots. (I'm not saying this is you, Forklift.) So yes, I'll call that out if only to make someone think a moment before carrying on the argument. Also, not every warrior has Devastate. An arms or fury warrior filling in on a tanking job and using Sunder will do just fine with that.

Lore
09-20-2008, 03:37 PM
This thread is dumb.

Ciderhelm
09-20-2008, 03:40 PM
This thread is dumb.
You take that back.

Satrina
09-20-2008, 03:47 PM
This thread is dumb.
I agree!

That hasn't stopped me from doing some math, though! (who is surprised?)

Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/september/8962/boeepic_namlakssupernumerarysticker.jpg) vs. Red Sword of Courage (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/september/utgardepinnacle_heroic_01.jpg)

Say I have 2600AP (+186DPS).

Dagger:
Average damage is 215, speed is 1.5
186DPS normalises to 316 damage per hit. Non-normalised, it's 278

Weapon damage will be (316 + 215) 531. Half weapon damage is 266. Add 505 (101 damage per Sunder stack from Devastate) and we get 771 damage from Devastate

Devastate threat is damage + 5% AP, yielding 771 + 130 = 901 threat for a Devastate from the dagger.

Sword:
Average damage is 229, speed is 1.6
186DPS normalises to 446 damage per hit. Non-normalised, 297

Weapon damage will be (446 + 229) 675. Half weapon damage is 338. Add 505 (101 damage per Sunder stack from Devastate) and we get 843 damage from Devastate

Devastate threat is damage + 5% AP, yielding 843 + 130 = 973 threat for a Devastate from the sword

Net difference against an equal iLevel epic sword is 72 damage (and threat) per Devastate, about 24TPS.

Not as bad as most people make it out to be, but definitely inferior to the sword (nobody was arguing that point.)

Edit:That said, Eternally Folded Blade (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=36984) drops in Lightning Halls, so it may well be that most warriors will end up with that first.

Schleppy
09-20-2008, 04:35 PM
The fastest swords are 1.50.
The fastest daggers are 1.30.

That's 15% more heroic strikes per unit time, going to the dagger. Except you lose weapon damage from AP at the rate of 2.4 to 1.7. You never want a dagger, even for HS spam.


Straw man. First of all, I never claimed HS suffers from AP normalization--but if you're HSing at all, you're Devastating on-cooldown, which DOES suffer from normalization. Daggers are not necessarily bad tanking weapons, just like a freaking caster weapon would not be a bad tanking weapon, if you had such bad alternatives that the base weapon damage is that far off.

But that is not the point.

The point is, given reasonable alternatives, dagger are fail tanking weapons. And if an item is only useful when there are no alternatives within 20 ilevels? That's a fail weapon.

See? You did say HS suffers normalization although not in as many words.. What else was the point to the 2.4 to 1.7 thing have in your first quote? Since 1 handed weapons normalize at 2.4, and daggers normalize at 1.7, what else could you possibly mean?

Is anyone here saying that dagger is something worth spending dkp or large amounts of time/gold to acquire it? HELL NO! What we are saying is it will probably beat OR AT LEAST BE EQUAL TO any blue 20-30 ilevels below it if you are lucky enough to have it drop, and it probably would be a pretty darn good tanking weapon for a fury warrior for those 5-10 pulls a run he has to offtank a mob assuming your raid has fury warriors offtank mobs in the few extra-large pulls in a run. Some people are unlucky (like me) and never see optimal tanking weapons drop when they play their tank. I've never seen a mallet drop when I played my warrior, i've never seen the kings defender drop when i was on my warrior, I dont even want to talk about that damned Suneater, it drops almost everytime I run mech on my druid, but only those stupid healing boots drop when I go on my warrior.

What's my point? I have two of them. First is your attitude kinda sucks, second is the same one everyone else has been saying. This dagger in question is far from the best tanking weapon available, but it's equally as far from the worst one.

Forklift
09-20-2008, 11:53 PM
See? You did say HS suffers normalization although not in as many words.. What else was the point to the 2.4 to 1.7 thing have in your first quote? Since 1 handed weapons normalize at 2.4, and daggers normalize at 1.7, what else could you possibly mean?Rereading that, I must have been distracted when I typed it, since I definitely meant you would lose the base weapon damage (from AP normalization) on Devastate.


Stuff1. I don't care much what your opinion of my e-attitude is. Sorry. 2. The point being made by a number of people on this thread, that sometimes, daggers are better than whatever shitty blue you happen to have, was never in doubt. I never disputed this. Repeat: I never disputed this. This was brought up as a straw man because it's one of Satrina's pet peeves and he loves talking about it. Again, you might as well talk about caster weapons.

If you want to read my point again, here it is: WHAT DO YOU THINK BLIZZARD'S INTENTION FOR THIS WEAPON IS? BEING A SHITTY TANKING SUBSTITUTE WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN UNLUCKY ON TANKING WEAPON DROPS IS MOST ASSUREDLY NOT IT.

mero12513
09-21-2008, 01:38 AM
This thread is dumb.

I personally believe that Satrina summed up the purpose quite well: it's probably a weapon that can serve as a superb entry weapon because it's BOE and you can pick it up immediately. The fact that it's a dagger makes it less optimal than alternatives of the same level, which means that you'll simply take an upgrade when you have the time to do the instances and get one. Thank you Satrina (and others who have posted reasonable discussion).

GG.

Machus
09-21-2008, 02:04 AM
Tanking with a dagger is probably a bad choice because Devastate does less damage, but otherwise it's quite workable. There's no effect on your ability to parry, slam, etc. Having said that the dagger is probably for rogues.

Satrina
09-21-2008, 07:19 AM
Tanking with a dagger is probably a bad choice because Devastate does less damage, but otherwise it's quite workable.


BEING A SHITTY TANKING SUBSTITUTE




Net difference against an equal iLevel epic sword is 72 damage (and threat) per Devastate, about 24TPS.

Meh.

Taelas
09-21-2008, 07:35 AM
Forklift, would ya calm down?

ebs2002
09-22-2008, 09:58 AM
I've still never seen the pocketwatch drop after 50 kara clears, and never seen the sun eater drop after 50 heroic mech's. Meanwhile, I had been using the Warbringer and Ancient Aqir Artifact. Personally, I'd rather have the Sun Eater and the pocketwatch, because yeah, it's better. And I've tried to get them (50+ attempts to get each, never saw them drop a single time).

So I have to use the lesser items. They're not *that* bad...they're not the *best*, but I got them, and I didn't get the watch or the sun eater.


What does this all mean? The dagger may not be the BEST item at a given point for any particular spec or class. Not every item is. The point is, you can't always get the best in slot, and you take what you get along the way to best-in-slot. This dagger is one of the "along the way" items, just like half of the epics in the game.

Synapse
09-22-2008, 10:12 AM
Seeing forklift seethe is amusing.

I'm afraid that's the biggest contribution of this thread =(

Kazeyonoma
09-22-2008, 10:48 AM
Sooo, I'm pretty sure we've seen the arguments and are baffled by this item. Let's just leave it at that shall we?

Closed.