View Full Version : 10 or 25man or both?

09-09-2008, 08:43 AM
With Wotlk nearing im wondering if many GMs/ officers have given much thought to the impact of having both 10 and 25 man progression paths.

The guild i was in before starting our current one, was very much a casual/ lvling guild. We had 3 kara teams and it become an Vs them mentality. Nobody wanted to be the shitty team.

Then when we tried to get gruuls/mags going on off nights, attendance was very poor, people tended to be more loyal to their 10 man team than the guild. We soon found out the 25 mans would take extra effort and structure to do it half seriously, something which the GM didnt want within the casual guild. So you can guess what happened when we decided to start a new guild (with the old GMs blessing), most of the team 1 and all of team 2 came accross and all of team 3 stayed.

The above illustrates i think, how having 2 or 3 teams combine to create a 25 man may not be the best thing for a guild. Any fracture could easily be terminal for a raiding guild. Of course leaders could mix the teams up each raid which would help everyone get to know one another better, but surely that would slow progression and perhaps frustrate players? I recall a podcast where Cider was asked about 10 mans within 25 man guilds, the answer i beleive was something along the lines of; they are trouble.

Now many players within guilds will hit 80 at various speeds. The faster ones will want to hit content. Do they start hitting 10 mans while the others catch up? Could 10 man teams start up in your guild during the early days even if its the intention to focus on 25 mans? Could there be a risk of that group breaking away?

Do you hit 25 mans with 10 mans on off nights, just stick to a few 10 man teams or do 10 mans with the odd 25 man on off nights? Also guilds that are chasing quick progression do you plan to focus on one?

I can see many headaches for 25 man teams down the track, and heaps of 10 man groups fracturing away/ forming.

Anyway im curious to know how others are planning to go foward in WOTLK.

09-09-2008, 10:53 AM
I don't think it will matter too much. Most casual guilds will find the 10 man path easier because they normally have a raiding core of 10 or so people who make nearly every raid anyhow.

For guilds that currently do 25 mans, they will probably continue to do so. I think the 10 man versions of the content will end up like ZA or Kara which people in 25 mans just sorta do sporatically.

09-10-2008, 12:24 PM
In my opinion I dont think it will change a lot. Wait about 12 months from WotLK release, then check your realm progression. I'll bet you a dollar that players currently in T5/T6 will be the ones raiding in WotLK. Guilds I think will be either 10 man or 25 man, not both. If a 25 man raiding guild does a 10 man raid, it will be on an off-night when most of the guild is not on.

Guilds will break-up and new guilds will be born, but the same players raiding now will be raiding after WotLK is released. Maybe under a different banner, but it will be the same players nonetheless

The players that are raiding now will likely continue to raid in the expansion. Players not raiding now will continue not to raid. I know of VERY few guilds right now that do exclusivly 10 mans (Kara and ZA). A guild could easily gear up in Karazhan and through Badge loot enough to finish all of ZA. Even get good enough to finish the timed event Heck, that's what my guild did before we merged and starting doing 25 man content (minus the bear mounts)

The main reason players PUG Karazhan now is because they overgear the place (S2 gear, badge gear). These players do not raid 10 mans because they dislike 25 raiding guilds (at least IMO). I think they only do it because it is now so easy with all the changes in the past 6 months. At least on my server there are no guilds that farm ZA as a progression instance. T6 guilds do it for bear mounts mostly, and the average T5 guild does it on off-nights for something to do.

09-10-2008, 04:11 PM
I can only say: mix and match.

On our guild, we started karazhan with one group. And progressed nicely. At some point we were close to Prince. At the same time our second group (which started a lot later) was having trouble at moroes.
It went on for like 2 weeks and then we decided to mix the groups. 2 weeks after that we had 2 groups clearing prince. So we decided never to make an A and a B team again. It really works.

You have the competition on the night of the runs but the week after the teams are mixed differently. You don't get guilds within a guild and everyone learns to play together and adapt to a changing environment. And there's nothing wrong in helping your guildies catch up.

09-10-2008, 04:14 PM
If you want to do just 10 man raiding I'm going to recommend not having enough people for 2 of them. Just slim down the guild to only be able to put up 1 10 man group and you won't have A or B teams.

09-26-2008, 03:54 PM
The jump form 10 mans to 25 mans was one of the most difficult things my guild has ever gone through. And I have heard the same from every one else that did it and survived. I believe that it is responsible for the break up of more guilds than we probably realize.

Given that we plan on only officially raiding 25 mans when Wrath comes out. 10 mans will be puggable by every one. This will let people go and run with their friends on off nights and let people that cant make the 25 man schedule or don't want to do the 25 mans get in. It also will take a huge burden off of me because organizing a regular raid schedule plus 2-3 nights of 10 mans a week is a huge task.

09-26-2008, 04:14 PM
If you want to do just 10 man raiding I'm going to recommend not having enough people for 2 of them. Just slim down the guild to only be able to put up 1 10 man group and you won't have A or B teams.

Why don't you just mix the teams up? Make raiding nights the same night and switch the players back and forth... granted my old guild had a few issues with that, there was a particular healer I (and most of the guild) didn't want to get stuck with... but switching the players up every week was better for keeping the whole guild together.

09-26-2008, 05:20 PM
If you have a large guild already then sure do the mix it up. If you don't it would make more sense to restrict the member count to not having 2 runs.

09-26-2008, 10:53 PM
Actually our jump from 10 man to 25 man was rather painless, just lots and lots of work.
Months on we still have all original members of the 10 man and everyone is very mindful we are now one team. Perhaps being a mature aged guild and not a progression at all costs guild has helped.

Come WOTLK i think there will be way more pressure on 25 man guilds. As it stands most people just pug the 10 mans on off nights or arrange them within guild. The difficultly within guild is always 'who gets to go' and how to keep it fair. Its impossible to keep everyone happy.

The major difference i see, is with WOTLK 10 mans can continue to progress unlike BC. So there will way more temptations/ offers for your players to leave. Easier to form, probably easier to progress, easier to get to togther come raid night and easier simpler loot systems.

For the 25 man guild its currently its hard enough, recruiting for example is almost seems a consistent exercise as it is. Will this get worse? Will 25 mans come under even more pressure? If you have have 10 mans within guild, who gets to go? And if you dont RL it do you risk members not liking the new RLs style? Are there added risks a 10 man could break away from your guild (if u dont RL)? Which would instantly kill most 25man guilds.

So many questions i know and i have little answers. But i do expect a mountain of extra pressure for most guilds trying to hold together 25 man raids.

09-26-2008, 11:26 PM
I think a lot of 25 man groups will end up doing both and the 10 mans will keep doing what they are doing. With the changes to badges only buying gear equivalent to the tier of instance there is more reason to run both 25 man and 10 man content.(assuming the 10 and 25 man version of the same instance drop the same badge) Plus factor in there will only be 3 raid instances ready at release, and 2 of those are single encounter instances. They are only talking about 5 total raid instances in Wrath, where TBC had 7. I think that's a recipe for having time to run both 10 and 25 man versions of an instance.

09-29-2008, 06:45 AM
The best way to keep problems from interfering with your main path of progression is to completely remove yourself from all decision making and control of the other progression path.

If you are a 25 man guild, your guild leadership should have absolutely no control over any 10 man content, regardless of what happens or what drama is caused in them. Give the guild a "do so at your own risk" clause. Groups will form on their own, and some people may feel left out, but this would happen whether the guild controlled it or not, by stepping aside you have, for the most part, absolved the guild of any of that trouble.

Realistically, it could still cause some problems, and possibly lead to a few gquits, but if you want to progress in both ways that will be the case regardless, and this saves leadership headaches, as well as leaving them the time to plan progression and manage the guild.