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Lizana
09-06-2008, 09:10 AM
From talking over with the officers over the past weeks and other raid leaders in general, i have come up with this short list of things that raid leaders wish everyone in the guild knew. So here we go...

1. During the boss fight, I am trying to watch 30 things at once. Boss hp, raid member hp, combat logs, threat meters, buffs, timers, boss mods, positioning, etc all to ensure that we don't wipe and we down the mob. So when i call you the wrong name, or even just hey you shammy or even don't call your name at all and just tell you to pop a cooldown, its not that i am making fun of you or don't respect you as a raider ( unless your a gnome). It just means my brain only process so fast at any given moment.

2. When i am giving out assignments, whether it be dps assignments or healing or even buffing assignments, I am asking you to remember one thing that I just told you. I am remembering what I am going to tell the next 24 people what their job is. So please try to remember it.



3. If you have an uber temp buff or a raid wipe prevention, please don't use it till I call for it. Chances are if you pop heroism or put your Soulstone on who you think I might want you to put it on, you will be wrong. I am a bastard like that. Don't worry I haven't forgotten about your ability, I am just waiting for the right time to use it. And so you know right time is when I say it is, one of the perks of being the leader.

4 When I am doing raid invites, Its not that I hate you personally, its not because I think your under geared, its not because your a gnome and smell bad (well maybe it is because your a gnome, I just wont let you know that), the reason you didn't get the invite is pretty simple. Either you did not sign up, or I have having to balance the raid in order to maximize the raid chances of downing the bosses planed. I know you want to raid, so did the other 23 hunters that signed up, but 23 hunters one pally and a priest wont be downing any bosses anytime soon. If I don't invite you this time, I promise you will get a higher priory next time as long as you meet the gear requirements. Now if I have never invited you, and you want to know why, chance are I just don't know you. Pst me sometime and allow me to get to know you. Next time I am spaming lf mage in guild chat, and your circling shatt for the 10th time, join up in the group and show me what you can do.


5. If I tell you to do something in the raid, DO IT. Don't question me over vent. Don't tell me your past 100 guilds all did it this other way in vent. Don't tell me I am doing it wrong and your not going to do what you were assigned. If I tell you I want you to strip naked, stand in the corner of curators room for 2 min then go fist fight the boss, then thats what you need to do. My entire strat for downing the boss is dependent on the raid following the orders assigned. By all means if you have a suggestion, whisper me, send a pst to one of the other raid officers and give it. But be respectful of me and the officer team. If you were leading you would want the same respect.



6.Come prepared. Have your arrows bought, have your pots bought, if your going to need to respec have it done before the invite time. After one wipe you should not be saying whoops my gear is red I need to go repair. If invites go out at 9:15, don't start a heroic MGT at 8:50. And if you choose to do that, don't expect me to hold your spot for you. Also on the same note, Kara takes longer than 20 min, Gruuls isn't a 10 min instance, SSC will not be done in 30 min. ZA bear runs do not allow you to take a 40 min break after first boss while you go eat dinner. If you cannot put the time into the instance that it requires, don't come.


7. Do everyone in vent a favor, if your eating, drinking, already drunk, smoking pot, having sex ( Even with yourself) Unplug your mic. Also on that note, Get rid of the speaker/mic on your monitor combo. A basic headset at walmart is 8 bucks. Buy it and use it.



8.If you have been in the raid party for 15 min, you should not be asking for a summon, A level 40 mount can make it from Shatt to TK in that time. Its part of being prepared to make sure you are where you can get to the instance by the raid start time.


9. When a gear item drops, you should know before hand if its a valid upgrade for you. I don't want to take 10 min while you go check out the comments on tankspot or wowhead to see if you want the item. With that said, if your in tier 20 gear, don't roll for the need roll on the tier 4 item.. You don't need it. On the same hand, if your wearing a 70 green and the epic drops, roll for it, we wont think your a loot whore if its a valid upgrade.


10. I am not the all knowing all seeing master of WoW. I know thats a shocking thing to consider, but I came to terms with it a long time ago. But you know what, I am the raid leader. I was chosen to lead the raid, thats my job for the night, not you. Let me lead the raid, chances are if you are knowledgeable and respectful enough with your suggestions, I will rely on you to help the raid out, heck you might even become an assist and lead raids of your own one day for us. But in the raid there can only be one leader, and for tonight thats me, too many chiefs makes sure nothing gets done.

Tatt
09-06-2008, 09:14 AM
My only comment would be that it goes miles to share some of the reasoning behind your decisions with the rest of the raid. Most people would be more accepting of odd ideas or makeups if they knew why you were doing what you were doing. Take charge, yes. Leave everyone in the dark? No.

Lizana
09-06-2008, 09:16 AM
My only comment would be that it goes miles to share some of the reasoning behind your decisions with the rest of the raid. Most people would be more accepting of odd ideas or makeups if they knew why you were doing what you were doing. Take charge, yes. Leave everyone in the dark? No.

And i agree, but the time to do that is not mid pull when the mage is complaining because he has been moved out of the ele shammys group. To me its more of an issue of trust. Ask questions sure, but do it at the right time.

Ukk
09-06-2008, 10:43 AM
All very valid points, but your tone is the precise reason that 10-man raids are the future of WoW.

Edit: I am not trying to insult you; it is just that your level of frustration with sloppy raiders is very evident - and very common among 25-man RLs.

Tatt
09-06-2008, 10:46 AM
I agree with Ukk...class composition will not be as important as skill and ability. Raid buffs instead of party buffs. More coordination, less pointing and shooting. I am sure most of the groups farming bears do not even listen to the raid leader much, they play together as a team and know what each member needs to do to achieve their goal. Lizana - from the sounds of it your raids have a great deal of people not pulling their weight in them, 10 mans will not allow for that, a dead weight will get dropped, because it is too hard for 9 people to make up for him, xcompared to 24 others.

Lizana
09-06-2008, 11:08 AM
I agree with Ukk...class composition will not be as important as skill and ability. Raid buffs instead of party buffs. More coordination, less pointing and shooting. I am sure most of the groups farming bears do not even listen to the raid leader much, they play together as a team and know what each member needs to do to achieve their goal. Lizana - from the sounds of it your raids have a great deal of people not pulling their weight in them, 10 mans will not allow for that, a dead weight will get dropped, because it is too hard for 9 people to make up for him, xcompared to 24 others.

With buffs being raid wide, it doesnt change the fact that some one will be the one putting the buff up,

And the point being made about a ZA bear run, that was thrown in to show something that is on a time frame. With the amount of coordination thats to be expected with Lich king raiding, havening non sloppy raiders will be even more important than it is now. And actually my raids don't have these issues, i have long since gkicked the people that had the issues. This is actually an old list, i had made back in Original wow, that i updated at the start of TBC, and later when we merged with a diff guild. I posted here to get others thoughts on the list, since we just merged with another lowbie guild and i have had to repost them once again.

Stearns
09-06-2008, 12:09 PM
I think its a great list, and definitely geared towards newbie raiders who are used to a lot of slack. Its should be second nature for the rest of us. I dont think 10 mans are necessarily the future of wow; lets see how it plays out.

I want to keep running 25 mans myself, as do a lot of my guildies. With a solid group of 25 people (and yes, skill should be a bigger deciding factor than class, and the instance design supports that) its going to be a blast.

Lol - I do think you should modify point 4 to say that maybe you dont get an invite because you're a lazy low skilled player :P Give people a kick in the !#$ when they need it ! Some people respond well to that; others should find themselves a more casual environment.

orcstar
09-07-2008, 05:16 AM
#0 I expect everyone to have read tactics, and also read our forum where the tactics are the we're going to use.

#0.5 Some situations require other officers (assigned people) to give orders. Listen to them as if it were the raidleader giving the order.

Ylun
09-07-2008, 06:29 AM
I recognise most of the points in one form or another, but that's not exactly how my current raid force works. And I'm quite happy about it. We're not the most progressed raid, and not the fastest, but we're getting there.



1. During the boss fight, I am trying to watch 30 things at once. Boss hp, raid member hp, combat logs, threat meters, buffs, timers, boss mods, positioning, etc all to ensure that we don't wipe and we down the mob. So when i call you the wrong name, or even just hey you shammy or even don't call your name at all and just tell you to pop a cooldown, its not that i am making fun of you or don't respect you as a raider ( unless your a gnome). It just means my brain only process so fast at any given moment.


The raid leaders don't try to micromanage that much. And they doesn't generally yell at people at all. An occasional "time to pop bloodlust" might be heard, but generally they expect raiders to think for themselves



2. When i am giving out assignments, whether it be dps assignments or healing or even buffing assignments, I am asking you to remember one thing that I just told you. I am remembering what I am going to tell the next 24 people what their job is. So please try to remember it.


They don't hand out specific assignments for 24 people, other than perhaps the Vashj fight.



3. If you have an uber temp buff or a raid wipe prevention, please don't use it till I call for it. Chances are if you pop heroism or put your Soulstone on who you think I might want you to put it on, you will be wrong. I am a bastard like that. Don't worry I haven't forgotten about your ability, I am just waiting for the right time to use it. And so you know right time is when I say it is, one of the perks of being the leader.


Raiders are expected to think for themselves. The raid leader might kindly ask the warlocks to soulstone a healer on Azgalor, but most of the times, people do it on their own accord.



4 When I am doing raid invites, Its not that I hate you personally, its not because I think your under geared, its not because your a gnome and smell bad (well maybe it is because your a gnome, I just wont let you know that), the reason you didn't get the invite is pretty simple. Either you did not sign up, or I have having to balance the raid in order to maximize the raid chances of downing the bosses planed. I know you want to raid, so did the other 23 hunters that signed up, but 23 hunters one pally and a priest wont be downing any bosses anytime soon. If I don't invite you this time, I promise you will get a higher priory next time as long as you meet the gear requirements. Now if I have never invited you, and you want to know why, chance are I just don't know you. Pst me sometime and allow me to get to know you. Next time I am spaming lf mage in guild chat, and your circling shatt for the 10th time, join up in the group and show me what you can do.


We use a web based signup systems where first signed up means first to go. Even it means no pally tank in Hyjal, or 4 tanks on an Archimonde wipe night. It's friendlier that way.



5. If I tell you to do something in the raid, DO IT. Don't question me over vent. Don't tell me your past 100 guilds all did it this other way in vent. Don't tell me I am doing it wrong and your not going to do what you were assigned. If I tell you I want you to strip naked, stand in the corner of curators room for 2 min then go fist fight the boss, then thats what you need to do. My entire strat for downing the boss is dependent on the raid following the orders assigned. By all means if you have a suggestion, whisper me, send a pst to one of the other raid officers and give it. But be respectful of me and the officer team. If you were leading you would want the same respect.


People in our raid force are allowed to suggest things in vent. They don't defy the raid leader if their suggestion doesn't make it into the strategy. But no one gets hurt by some kind suggestions.



6.Come prepared. Have your arrows bought, have your pots bought, if your going to need to respec have it done before the invite time. After one wipe you should not be saying whoops my gear is red I need to go repair. If invites go out at 9:15, don't start a heroic MGT at 8:50. And if you choose to do that, don't expect me to hold your spot for you. Also on the same note, Kara takes longer than 20 min, Gruuls isn't a 10 min instance, SSC will not be done in 30 min. ZA bear runs do not allow you to take a 40 min break after first boss while you go eat dinner. If you cannot put the time into the instance that it requires, don't come.


Agree on this one, partly. You don't have to come fully buffed, although it's nice if you do. But most important is that you have read up and know the strategies.



7. Do everyone in vent a favor, if your eating, drinking, already drunk, smoking pot, having sex ( Even with yourself) Unplug your mic. Also on that note, Get rid of the speaker/mic on your monitor combo. A basic headset at walmart is 8 bucks. Buy it and use it.


Haha. :D Do these things really happen?



8.If you have been in the raid party for 15 min, you should not be asking for a summon, A level 40 mount can make it from Shatt to TK in that time. Its part of being prepared to make sure you are where you can get to the instance by the raid start time.


People have to get their flasks done, people are stuck in Orgrimmar. Such things happen, and mostly it is the warlocks that suffer. The raid leadership does not care about how people get there (unless they're a warlock).



9. When a gear item drops, you should know before hand if its a valid upgrade for you. I don't want to take 10 min while you go check out the comments on tankspot or wowhead to see if you want the item. With that said, if your in tier 20 gear, don't roll for the need roll on the tier 4 item.. You don't need it. On the same hand, if your wearing a 70 green and the epic drops, roll for it, we wont think your a loot whore if its a valid upgrade.


Never seen them wait more than 5 seconds after a drop. 5 4 3 2 1, win. If you ask "wait" you'll get some more time. Not that often it happens though.



10. I am not the all knowing all seeing master of WoW. I know thats a shocking thing to consider, but I came to terms with it a long time ago. But you know what, I am the raid leader. I was chosen to lead the raid, thats my job for the night, not you. Let me lead the raid, chances are if you are knowledgeable and respectful enough with your suggestions, I will rely on you to help the raid out, heck you might even become an assist and lead raids of your own one day for us. But in the raid there can only be one leader, and for tonight thats me, too many chiefs makes sure nothing gets done.

Raid leaders with this attitude are pain when they have a bad night or when wiping gets rough. Laid back and mature raid leaders listen to their (mostly) mature raiders, and doesn't freak out if someone briefly oversteps their position.

salihe
09-12-2008, 04:21 PM
From talking over with the officers over the past weeks and other raid leaders in general, i have come up with this short list of things that raid leaders wish everyone in the guild knew. So here we go...................(shorted for quoting sake)

.................But in the raid there can only be one leader, and for tonight thats me, too many chiefs makes sure nothing gets done.

One word: agreed.

And you know what the sad part is? My guild is still stuck on doing 10-mans despite have approx. 75 70s.

But that's more regarding a post I'm about to make in two seconds...

Whisperawr
09-17-2008, 03:28 PM
Liz,

I think your post is right on the money! For a guild that is focused on progression, it is a boon to be friendly but it's not the major concern. Ylun's post grinds at me because it's the exact attitude that, to a raid leader, makes your raid atmosphere and attitude (read: progression) go from fantastic to mediocre even before the first pull.

To have a great raid night (even if it means wiping again and again to new boss content.. hey, i consider that GREAT :) ) everyone needs to be on the same page. Having just one person hold up a 25 man encounter is frustrating for 24 other people, but no one more than the raid leader.

I think that it should be mentioned that raid leaders often put TONS more time into learning boss encounters and doing research prior to the raid than even the average quality raider. The LEAST someone can do is craft those consumables beforehand and show up at a stone helping to summon other raiders. Also, vent talking and "friendly suggestions" are not looked upon by a raid leader as disobedient as much as it's frequently confusing to other raid members to have "too many cooks in the kitchen." Those suggestions are best kept to whispers between pulls or, most appropriately, left to a vent conversation after the raid night ends.

Inaara
09-17-2008, 04:08 PM
The raid leaders don't try to micromanage that much. And they doesn't generally yell at people at all. An occasional "time to pop bloodlust" might be heard, but generally they expect raiders to think for themselves
I'm not sure if you're in Sunwell but there is alot of micro-managing to ensure that the raid gets the most out of each ability, especially Heroisms.




They don't hand out specific assignments for 24 people, other than perhaps the Vashj fight.
We have a spreadsheet for Muru assignments, then again he's no Vashj right?



Raiders are expected to think for themselves. The raid leader might kindly ask the warlocks to soulstone a healer on Azgalor, but most of the times, people do it on their own accord.
Although a raid leader may not assign every single stone there is still
someone that should be taking care of a order for (in this case) the locks to use teir SS. Things are done best when carefully organized.




We use a web based signup systems where first signed up means first to go. Even it means no pally tank in Hyjal, or 4 tanks on an Archimonde wipe night. It's friendlier that way.
This is more of a personal pet peeve for our guild leadership. I expect EVERY raider to be online for invites and to preserve a balanced raid comp I sort it out after I know I have to work with. Keeping sign-ups, at least for a serious raiding guild is a waste of time. Raiders should show up every day with the intention to raid. What happens when someone shows up that didn't sign up but is clearly needed for class balance?




People in our raid force are allowed to suggest things in vent. They don't defy the raid leader if their suggestion doesn't make it into the strategy. But no one gets hurt by some kind suggestions.
Like the military, there is a chain of command that should be followed. The point I believe he is trying to make and that I agree with is that suggestions can be made through whispers instead of blared over vent. When you call the raid leader wrong in front of everyone it creates distrust that is at the core very unproductive.




Agree on this one, partly. You don't have to come fully buffed, although it's nice if you do. But most important is that you have read up and know the strategies.
I believe that everyone should come completely prepare to every single raid with every possible consumable that they can use, end of story.




Haha. :D Do these things really happen?
yes.... lol




People have to get their flasks done, people are stuck in Orgrimmar. Such things happen, and mostly it is the warlocks that suffer. The raid leadership does not care about how people get there (unless they're a warlock).
It is everyones responsibility to have all their consumable taken care of before the raid and to be at the entrance on time. There is no excuse for this. As far as I know there is no guild in the world that raids 24 hours a day so there should be ample time to have flasks made before the raid starts.




Never seen them wait more than 5 seconds after a drop. 5 4 3 2 1, win. If you ask "wait" you'll get some more time. Not that often it happens though.
Lucky you, thankfully we use a Loot Coucil which requires members to link the item that they are replacing.




Raid leaders with this attitude are pain when they have a bad night or when wiping gets rough. Laid back and mature raid leaders listen to their (mostly) mature raiders, and doesn't freak out if someone briefly oversteps their position.
Everyone needs a kick in the balls to get their shit straight every once in a while. It can be a shitty job but someone has to do it, I personally take pleasure in it.

Ylun
09-18-2008, 06:13 AM
How do you kill Archimonde if your raiders cannot make decisions on their own? Does your raid leader have to klick the tears for all the other 24 raiders too?

There are different ways of handle slackers. Either you get upset, and if you're upset you cannot focus on the raid properly. Or you can ignore the bad habits and instead encourage the good habits. Positive leadership always works best, imo.

The worst slackers shouldn't even make it into your roster, that's why you have a trial.

No, we're not in Sunwell, but we are among the fastest progressing raid forces on our server. Full clears of SSC, TK, MH and working on Reliquary of Souls.

orcstar
09-18-2008, 07:45 AM
I think you're talking aboutdifferent situations. There's a big big difference between progression based raiding where you really have to min max everything and everyone has to give their top game to even barely beat an encounter and going through SSC/TK fully decked out in badge/pvp-epics where the underperforming by some can be handled by the overperforming of others.

Positive leadership always works best, imo.
I don't agree on this one. Especialy the word "always".

Inaara
09-18-2008, 09:44 AM
How do you kill Archimonde if your raiders cannot make decisions on their own? Does your raid leader have to klick the tears for all the other 24 raiders too?

There are different ways of handle slackers. Either you get upset, and if you're upset you cannot focus on the raid properly. Or you can ignore the bad habits and instead encourage the good habits. Positive leadership always works best, imo.

The worst slackers shouldn't even make it into your roster, that's why you have a trial.

No, we're not in Sunwell, but we are among the fastest progressing raid forces on our server. Full clears of SSC, TK, MH and working on Reliquary of Souls.

There's a difference between delegation and personal responsibility that you don't seem to understand. Even the best raiders need to be shook up and put back on track every once in a while.

A raid leader explains the strat before each fight so that everyone is on the same page. Part of explaining the strat is telling EVERYONE what they will be doing and in your archimonde example that would be telling your groups where to stand and for the first attempt when to click the tears.

With your reasoning I could simply say "DPS the boss, heal people that take damage, collect purples," when that clearly is not the case.

protonly
09-18-2008, 11:37 AM
@ Inaara -- I agree with your lengthy post above as most of it is sound. I've always felt progression raiding is a battle against the raid bosses and the clock since the goal is each night to have a new kill and improve on previous kills. You don't accomplish this when you're playing grab ass. You end up stuck in TK/SSC for 9 months jacking around and then suddenly progress through half of BT/MH in one night when you kick a few people in the butt.

And believe me, there are times when you need to literally tell people "You stand here and spam the fuck out of FOL. Do not stop spamming it until your finger is a stub." otherwise they just won't do it or won't know to do it.

Positive leadership works best when things are going well. When things start to suck, sometimes you need some tough love to get things back. Wiping 30 times on farmed content and being positive about sucking doesn't fool anyone. "

"Praise in public; criticize in private." -- Lombardi

To the OP, you need to add this one to your list of things a RL wished his/her raiders knew: Yes, there are stupid questions.

Ylun
09-18-2008, 03:03 PM
If you are lucky your "tough love" hits someone who knows how to handle it.

The normal case is that people get so upset over the criticism that they fail to hear the actual advice given. Their hurt feelings will actually lower their performance. You'll also get problems with people leaving the raid force or the game, because raiding doesn't feel fun when you are criticized and belittled by your peers.

The same applies in real life. I work as a project manager, and I get vastly better results by encouraging people and letting them participate, than by trying to enforce my decisions from above.

May I ask what age your raiders are? I recognize the behaviour from another raid force I was in, where people were teens or in their early twenties.

Inaara
09-18-2008, 04:19 PM
Our raiders age range from 19 to mid 50's, many with kids or even grandchildren. Some are stay-at-home mothers. It's a simple concept to understand really and a message I have given to members.

"I am here to raid, not babysit. I will give you 200% and I expect you to do the same. Critisism will be given and it will not always be constructive. Being a retard can only go so far and I as a human being can only handle so much of it. If I become upset with you it is because you deserve it, not because I am an asshole (Although I am). There are many guilds on this server but you chose to be apart of the best. I expect the best of you and if you can't give it to me then leave. So do us both a favor, turn off the down syndrome and do your job."

I have that as my auto copy/paste for members that bitch. By no means do I expect perfection. Everyone makes mistakes but there is a line that has to be drawn when it gets out of hand. When someone makes the same mistake repeatedly I'm not going to hold their hand, seductively rub their shoulders and tell them it's alright. I'm going to kick them from the raid for the day and tell them to shape up. It seems to have worked fine so far.

Gretchin
09-19-2008, 01:22 AM
If you are lucky your "tough love" hits someone who knows how to handle it.

If those people can't handle it they are in the wrong guild, easy as that. If you want to be server best you can't go all emo because you got told what you did wrong - those that really wants to be server best you set personal needs after group needs and focus on what's important. And the important thing is the raid and the kill, not someones feelings after they screw up again and again and ruines it for the other 24 raiders.


The normal case is that people get so upset over the criticism that they fail to hear the actual advice given. Their hurt feelings will actually lower their performance. You'll also get problems with people leaving the raid force or the game, because raiding doesn't feel fun when you are criticized and belittled by your peers.

I'm not a player pushing progression, haven't seen Sunwell and probably won't at all - but this is something even I can see is wrong from a perspective of noone is larger than the guild. If people can't be mature enough to accept their faults and take critisism and understand that they are the ones making everyone else suffer I see no downside what so ever if those people choose to leave the raid/the guild.


The same applies in real life. I work as a project manager, and I get vastly better results by encouraging people and letting them participate, than by trying to enforce my decisions from above.

That's what you do in a new situation. After 3 months on that project and you still are not progressing becuase one person fails to show up at meetings, fail to do his job as he should and continuasly claims that the world is flat instead of round - will you still be positive and encouraging towards that person? It is as Inaara said above me:


By no means do I expect perfection. Everyone makes mistakes but there is a line that has to be drawn when it gets out of hand. When someone makes the same mistake repeatedly I'm not going to hold their hand, seductively rub their shoulders and tell them it's alright.


May I ask what age your raiders are? I recognize the behaviour from another raid force I was in, where people were teens or in their early twenties.

I recognize your behaviors from guilds that just won't be more than mediocre ;)

Ylun
09-23-2008, 09:00 AM
Many relevations here! Obviously Tankspot is directed only to players who want to play in a server first raiding guild. The remaining 99% of guilds should try to imitate how they believe the server firsts behave, even if it causes them unnecessary drama and player losses.

May I ask, if you have 25 of these perfect raiders that only wants progressions, have no normal human feelings, and are endlessly motivated. Then why do you even need the 10 points in the threadstart?

What I am proposing is try to treat your raiders as your equals (in fact it is a computer game, so they already are), and they might actually start behaving as your equals.

protonly
09-23-2008, 10:04 AM
To quote Troxed, "If I raided with 24 other MEs, then the game just wouldn't be fun because I'd one shot every boss. By Raiding with 24 retards who do the most fucked up retarded shit you've ever seen, it just brings that extra level to the game and forces me to bring my game up that much more. The fact we manage to kill bosses just means I'm that much of a pro."

I'm being sarcastic and I'm sure I screwed up teh quote but that's about what he said. If you haven't heard him, go to troxed.com and enjoy the soundboards.

Some people like the hardcore guilds because they don't fuck around and just get to the point. Others prefer the more casual atmosphere. It is an individual's choice ultimately.

orcstar
09-23-2008, 06:39 PM
Many relevations here! Obviously Tankspot is directed only to players who want to play in a server first raiding guild. The remaining 99% of guilds should try to imitate how they believe the server firsts behave, even if it causes them unnecessary drama and player losses.

May I ask, if you have 25 of these perfect raiders that only wants progressions, have no normal human feelings, and are endlessly motivated. Then why do you even need the 10 points in the threadstart?

What I am proposing is try to treat your raiders as your equals (in fact it is a computer game, so they already are), and they might actually start behaving as your equals.
The irony is that you're spot on.
The points made in the first post are for people who want to be in a big-ass raiding guild. The guilds with the world firsts really don't need those guidelines. The guilds which focus on raiding where the members "say" they are hardcore raiders but don't act like that are the guilds that need such guidelines.

Some random person Y: Hey, I want to be in your guild.
Me: why
Y: you raid, are the best guild in the server and I want to be part of that. I think I can contribute.
Me: ok, welcome to our guild.

Raidnight Y comes unprepared, no pots doesn't know where we're going oblivious of tactics, hasn't read our forum.
Y gets killed, Y: it wasn't me, it was lag, it was the dog, the neighbors cut my internetline, a flying saucer flew over my house but it WASN'T ME.
Y gets killed again and again. Raidleader bashes head against brick wall, because in reality there are a lot of Y's which are all nice persons which you like but..............

Ylun
09-24-2008, 10:03 AM
Aw, mate. I can feel your pain. :(

Celandro
09-24-2008, 12:20 PM
Additional rule:

A) Trash pulls are going to be as fast as possible. If you need to go afk, do it during trash pulls if you possibly can but let us know. No, we will not wait for you, we keep pulling as fast as we can to get to the boss. No I will not slow down on trash pulls. If everyone is alive, the next pull is coming. The faster we pull, the less bored people are, the more attention is paid and the more likely we are to kill a new boss this week. If you died on trash, someone (either you, a tank or a healer) f'd up or weren't paying attention. I don't particularly care who or why, just figure it out yourself and don't do it again. If we wipe, so be it. 1 wipe on trash a night is better than spending hours and hours on trash. Treat every single raid like a bear run in ZA and everyone has a lot more fun.

B) If we are on a new boss and people F up and die, no I will not call for a wipe right away. People still alive need to learn the fight. People who died need to be looking at why everyone else ISNT dead like they are and think about what they did wrong. A lot of fights like archi/council are far easier learned with 15 people, half of whom are healers. Yes, I do consider having you stare at your dead corpse for 8 minutes after you died 15 seconds into the fight the minimum appropriate punishment for being retarded.

Shadevarr
09-24-2008, 12:29 PM
very good post. My guild is somewhere between casual and hardcore. We push through trash quickly (I get annoyed if a trash pull takes longer than 2 minutes) and we have been doing good progress on bosses. It is taking us about 4-5 hours for 1st down on average.

As far as chewing people out for screw ups? I take it to the whole class. If there was no soulstone I firmly remind the warlocks to pay attention to the ss rotation in the warlock channel. Did the healers/tanks screw up? same. I don't point out someones individual flaws but bring it to the raid that class/role X must do task Y for us to down this boss. Less hurt feelings all around and provides the same level of guidance.

then again, some people just go brain dead and start dropping searing totems in the middle of the room on hydross during transitions.

kolben
09-26-2008, 12:15 PM
A lot of raid leaders claim to watch an enormous number of things at once. That may be something your brain is capable of doing without boggling, but mine isn't.

The best raids (for me) are when I focus the raid onto what has to happen, and I somewhat ignore all other details. I have yet to see a fight that requires you to properly manage more than 4 things at the same time, including Vashj and Kael. Most are as little as 2 things you must do correctly to win.

Fortunately, I was blessed with a personality that can't process that much information so I zero in on only what's important :P