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Ciderhelm
09-05-2008, 03:41 AM
I'm going to take this opportunity to summarize the approach Blizzard is taking with Warriors. This should be a fairly in-depth overview of what we're going to be looking at in Wrath of the Lich King.


Yes, All Tanks Equal
Save your breath. This philosophy isn't going to change. This philosophy does not suggest that Warriors will be inferior. Once you accept that this is their intention, read on and start enjoying your new potential.


You'll Want To Level With A Shield
This is first because it's the most important piece of information you'll need stepping into Northrend -- if you've spent Burning Crusade preparing tanking gear but have not focused as much on a DPS set, you're in for a treat. For the first time in WoW, dedicated Protection Warriors will have a dedicated Sword and Shield build designed for every aspect of the game.

Love respecing Arms and think that Arms or Fury should be what you spec if you want to do something else? Then keep it up. None of the changes will prevent you from doing so.


It's About Damage
Tanking, leveling, grinding, and PVP will all be focused on damage output that has not been seen before. Threat is, by and large, being replaced by damage. Abilities like Concussion Blow are now going to see 4-digit crits. Shield Slam has seen a huge number of new and revised talents that increase it's potency and effectiveness. Strength, once considered one of the weakest means of scaling Threat output for Warriors, is now front and center in everything. The Defensive Stance damage penalty is now effectively removed.


Enraged Regeneration Makes All The Difference
Don't overlook Enraged Regeneration. This brings Warrior into the fold with other tanks, all of whom have self-healing that is immensely useful for speeding up leveling, grinding, and dailies.

To explain Enraged Regeneration in a complete way, we have to summarize several aspects of damage intake. First, Enraged Regeneration is a percentage of Health, and Protection Warriors have high Health in tanking gear and this scales with gear. Second, Protection Warriors have high damage reduction and this scales with gear. Third, any given mob has a maximum amount of damage it is capable of dealing to you.

Enraged Regeneration is virtually guaranteed to increase the type and the number of mobs we can solo grind at any given time. Combine this with trinkets or Health Potions, or both, high Thunderclap and Shockwave damage, and reactive damage: Protection Warriors will be able to effectively AOE grind.

The bottom line: Never underestimate the value of scaling healing when you're wearing gear with scaling damage reduction.


The Trees Will Be Slimmer
We're already aware the trees are getting slimmed down. I'm confident the next serious Beta push will prove this out. Stay tuned!


We'll Worry About Balancing When It's Balanced
Blizzard has stated numerous times that they will balance disparities to bring them in line. This will be done and is currently being done by dedicated test teams and by data from the Beta.

You can bet that balancing issues will be on TankSpot's news page when there are serious issues. We don't want the balance issues going into Wrath that we saw going into Burning Crusade. But we also really don't have a way of making judgment calls without knowing glyphs, itemization, or even many of the instances. After everything else we've seen, I'll place my trust in Blizzard, but we'll stay on alert.


Bulk-To-Baseline
Many of our mitigation and Threat talents that once filled our trees are baseline. Don't worry about Defiance. Don't worry about the Defense Skill. They're baseline, either in our class or in our gear, because they took too many points and allowed too little choice. Them going baseline means Arms and Fury Warriors will be capable of tanking better than they currently have been able -- this is great!

Almost every talent that will be in the final tree will have a real purpose and a real benefit. These aren't obscure benefits the way they have been in the past, but tangible benefits like decreasing the new Shield Block cooldown, which also happens to greatly increase Shield Slam damage for the duration.


PVP Functionality Does Not Diminish PVE
Hate PVP and hate the idea of Protection having anything to do with PVP? Don't worry! The PVP talents are small and are in no way required to get deeper in the tree. In other words, they are 100% optional, and skipping them will not have a negative impact on the tanking functionality of the class. They are as deep as they are in the tree because they are intended to be off-limits to Arms or Fury builds.

With the inevitably-slimmer trees, Protection Warriors will have a real choice to pick up some of these talents after min/maxing their builds.


Vigilance Does Not Replace Shield Slam
That 31-point talent just doesn't measure up to the impact Shield Slam had on Protection? That's fine. Remember, Shield Slam is baseline, so Vigilance did not replace it.


AOE Tanking -- It's Not Just Shockwave
We've been worrying about Shockwave and it's conal effect but much of the community has looked past Thunderclap. Thunderclap is receiving major buffs and, while it doesn't have an unlimited number of targets, the new instances are not designed around massive AOE tanking. Keep an eye out on the potential for this ability in multi-mob packs.


Blizzard Listened To Us
Blizzard has listened to us and our community in a way they haven't shown before. This is, perhaps, the most heartening thing of all.

Armageddn
09-05-2008, 04:02 AM
nice summary i'm looking forward to try all this new stuff out =)

Armageddn
09-05-2008, 04:04 AM
Doh no edit button =(

anyhow the thing that excites me the most is the multi-mob tanking abilities i've always liked tanking many mobbs and all the new things like shockwave and T-clap gives us better potential to do that in an effective way

SoaD!
09-05-2008, 04:32 AM
I just agree with everything in this article.

Really good synthesis of what the War/prot will be in WoTLK with what we know and can imagine.

I really want to see what the prot will be on WoTLK, and also this new DK.

bludwork
09-05-2008, 05:02 AM
did you just repeat what GC said?

AnvilDK
09-05-2008, 05:03 AM
I like the enraging regeneration ability. It is nice we are getting a staple feral power in return for all our panic buttons that bears have been granted.

This will make us much more viable.

I do feel a bit sorry enraging assault got taken out. It was a powerful cheap attack that especially fury looked to benefit alot from.

Hope they throw Fury another bone the concept of enraging assault was great and very fitting in my opinion. I do not understand why we can not have the option of both since there is a 3 minut cooldown on enraging regeneration. What can we burn our enrage on the rest of the time ???

Looking forward to what benefit they will give fury and arms instead of enraging assault. I still think enraging assault had its place as a good way of punishing crit happy pvp opponents (evil twisted grin). Big loss for fury spec.

Anvil

Beauieux
09-05-2008, 05:32 AM
Ok, I am a relatively new warrior tank and have been accumulating gear over the past few months. I have mostly Kara/ZA gear and some notable badge pieces.

Quick question: should I start building a block value set for leveling in Wrath? For example, should I spend the badges on the block value badge legs? I have Sunguard currently but don't have that chunk of block that Unwavering have.

I'm trying to look forward and best prepare myself for the expansion, any tips appreciated as it relates to gearing in that direction.

Orenus
09-05-2008, 06:49 AM
Quick question: should I start building a block value set for leveling in Wrath?


I get the impression that Block Value is going to be a deprecated stat and strength will be the primary means of boosting block. The expertise on the sunguard legs will continue to be very valuable.

jere
09-05-2008, 06:59 AM
I get the impression that Block Value is going to be a deprecated stat and strength will be the primary means of boosting block. The expertise on the sunguard legs will continue to be very valuable.

Well there has been some WotLK level 80 gear released with block value on it, so it may not go the way of deprecation.

Daimon
09-05-2008, 07:08 AM
2 thumbs up, however I'm lean to wait and see the fixed trees before see what will be the optimal multitask spec. I'm worried about things might look better in theory than in practice.

Chunes
09-05-2008, 07:29 AM
welcome to the AoE paintrain my red-barred bretheren :p

Lore
09-05-2008, 07:35 AM
Warriors are silly.

PS: DPS or PVP with a shield on is awesommmeeee I'm speccing my Warrior prot and never stoppin'

...until I feel like whirlwinding with two 2handers on...

Galushi
09-05-2008, 07:37 AM
Lore has a Warr?

+5 rep with Galushi.

Lobo
09-05-2008, 07:43 AM
Any word on if our current tier gear will be adjusted to reflect these changes? I'm hoping my T6 will get some Str added to it so I don't have to quest grind in my DPS suit.

Bonerot
09-05-2008, 07:47 AM
They had mentioned a while back that tier sets may get new stats based on massive changes to talents. I haven't seen a new change to any of my items yet but I will say that my prot dps set which is heavy in strength anyway does well for prot in beta.

Lore
09-05-2008, 08:02 AM
Lore has a Warr?

+5 rep with Galushi.

I was a Prot Warrior from release until TBC. Leveled Protection, in fact.

Orenus
09-05-2008, 08:19 AM
Well there has been some WotLK level 80 gear released with block value on it, so it may not go the way of deprecation.


Ah, I hadn't seen any of that yet. No beta key for me, so I only see what lands on the front page of MMO Champion. Still, unless they're really generous with BV, strength will be a better stat.

Galushi
09-05-2008, 08:47 AM
Strength will be superior in that in addition to the block value, it will add attack power to scale every other threat ability besides just shield slam, will have a 10% bonus with Vitality, and also benefit from blessing of kings.

Block Value is a good stat because of all the new mods on Shield Slam, but in general Strength will probably be more useful.

jere
09-05-2008, 09:02 AM
Ah, I hadn't seen any of that yet. No beta key for me, so I only see what lands on the front page of MMO Champion. Still, unless they're really generous with BV, strength will be a better stat.

Here ya go, found an image of one:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/august/lootupdate/cotstratholme_03.jpg

Kavtor
09-05-2008, 09:12 AM
Any word on if our current tier gear will be adjusted to reflect these changes? I'm hoping my T6 will get some Str added to it so I don't have to quest grind in my DPS suit.

They recently reitemized the shaman sets to have AP rather than strength to reflect class changes. On the other hand, you'll still be better off wearing your DPS gear to level. Tanking on the other hand... they've still not made changes that'll make T6 / sunwell loot better for tanking WotLK 5 mans than PVP gear.

It wouldn't be -that- hard though. Strip 25% avoidance off all the current gear and use those ilvls to add STR. Remove sunwell radiance. Done. Probably makes M'uru and learning BT & archimonde tougher though, so I wouldn't nessisarily expect a change to our gear.

Orkchops
09-05-2008, 09:46 AM
My pantaloons swell greatly at the thought of things to come.

Compa
09-05-2008, 09:55 AM
We can always switch to DPS gear but ... well, we shouldn't.
I don't know about T6/SW gear :( never been there but Badge gear has 0 Block Value and 0 Strength so I hope so see a little change on that.

Anywyas, the changes look nice and I'm eager to see them :D

Machus
09-05-2008, 09:55 AM
Well, Vigilance is now fixed, pretty much. In its initial form it was of situational use to let you tank with a melee DPS that would otherwise be troublesome. In it's current form with 10% threat transfer it would be worth the point even on a raid build.

Blizzard seems to be doing a good job of combining talents so that they are always of some benefit so you don't have to respec for every fight even if you are that hardcore. I'm really pleased with the combined effect of Imp. Def. Stance, for example.

Kazeyonoma
09-05-2008, 09:56 AM
My pantaloons swell greatly at the thought of things to come.

Your Junk?! hahaha

Nez
09-05-2008, 10:01 AM
My Name is Nezastus and I approve of this message.
:D

Cant wait to try out the changes, thanks for the update Cider

Kiel
09-05-2008, 11:32 AM
AOE Tanking -- It's Not Just ShockwaveWas looking forward to seeing Bloodbath as a new tool for Warrior AOE tanking. Hopefully it returns in a future build.

Orkchops
09-05-2008, 11:39 AM
Your Junk?! hahaha

Now it just sounds like a Fergie song...lol.

My junk, my junk.....my junk, my junk, my junk.

Aldragoriad
09-05-2008, 12:10 PM
Vigilance Does Not Replace Shield Slam
That 31-point talent just doesn't measure up to the impact Shield Slam had on Protection? That's fine. Remember, Shield Slam is baseline, so Vigilance did not replace it.

I really hate this line of thinking. When people really complain about Vigilance not being an adequate replacement for Shield Slam, I believe they are talking about it from an iconic point of view rather than a functional one. Mortal Strike, and Bloodthirst are the other tree's 31 point talents, and they're representative of why the class is cool. Shield Slam used to fit this bill, a 31 point ability that defined what the tree was about. Vigilance can't measure up in any shape or form, thus making it feel very lackluster, even though with the recent changes its actually going to be a very good talent.

Personally I want a 31 point talent that screams Protection is cool, since that seems to be Blizz's stated goal with the updates, not some lame threat stealing talent. I want something that gets me excited about the tree, Sword and Board would be an ok fit here, and solve the problem of it being a bloated 5 point talent, but even then, I want something better, something more fun, something cooler. I want a sexy talent on par with Mortal Strike, or Bloodthirst, preferably something to do with the shield, although that'll probably be hard to do since they already have shield slam as baseline.

Completely off the top of my head, and probably insanely overpowered but maybe something like:

Shield Surge - Step forward and crash your shield into your target, causing medium damage, knocking your target down, and dazing them for 6 seconds.

Give it a 20 second cooldown or something so it doesn't make us overpowered, but it would still be "cool and fun." It links better with concussion blow too.

I could get excited for a talent like that, and it would be a tree defining one, instead of this vigiliance garbage that nobody can really accept.

Ciderhelm
09-05-2008, 12:19 PM
Aldra, did you really go from saying Vigilance is a "very good talent" with recent changes in the paragraph to referring to "this vigiliance garbage that nobody can really accept" in the last? ;)

You may hate the line of thinking, but unfortunately most people are going to disagree with you. Shield Slam is still the core of Protection and one look at the talents will make that abundantly clear. We have awesome 31-point talents at the moment -- and not just with Vigilance.

Yes, it is a bad argument to say that Vigilance replaced Shield Slam.

Daimon
09-05-2008, 12:23 PM
@Aldragoriad:
Shield Surge - Step forward and crash your shield into your target, causing medium damage, knocking your target down, and dazing them for 6 seconds.

well but.... thats far from being a signature to the protection tree (Vigilance is actually more funtional than that one u made out) lets see why: Concussion Blow already does that and it doesnt do mid dmg...it does 4 digit dmg!!!!
And let me see how many bosses are not inmune to stuns?....uh? None. GG for a talent 31pt only good for trash,..and maibe pvp.
thx god you're not part of blizzard design team.

Aldragoriad
09-05-2008, 12:26 PM
Its a dichotomy, but its still there. Vigilance is both very good and garbage at the same time. Yes its a great talent, yes everybody will spec it regardless of what else gets added to the tree. At the same time its just not one of those "fun" talents that GC likes to talk about. In that light its complete garbage. It is not iconic, and in fact if you really look at it, its actually something of a degradation, we have to "Steal" threat from someone else, we're inadequate on our own. Its garbage because it doesn't belong where they put it, nice as the talent is. It "replaces" Shield Slam in one area at least, that of defining the tree, and it fails miserably at doing it. Thats what makes it garbage, at least from my point of view.

Aldragoriad
09-05-2008, 12:27 PM
Damion, I said knock down and Daze, no stun in there... WTB reading comprehension PST.

Daimon
09-05-2008, 12:29 PM
ok, my bad, editing: "how many bosses are able to being knocked down: None again"
and its Daimon (WTS reading comprehension) ;)
lol.

Aldragoriad
09-05-2008, 12:29 PM
Yay for triple post, but no edits... Also, I said I pulled it out of my ass with about 3 seconds of thought, I never claimed it was anything more than an example of the type of talent I want to see in that slot.

Ciderhelm
09-05-2008, 12:29 PM
It "replaces" Shield Slam in one area at least, that of defining the tree, and it fails miserably at doing it. Thats what makes it garbage, at least from my point of view.

No it doesn't. Nothing is replacing Shield Slam in defining the tree. Look at the Protection tree again and pay attention to just how much focus there is on Shield Slam.

What you're arguing is that there should be a replacement for Shield Slam and that the Protection tree should be built around whatever that replacement is. That's not particularly exciting for the rest of us who love Shield Slam. ;)

Aldragoriad
09-05-2008, 12:37 PM
No it doesn't. Nothing is replacing Shield Slam in defining the tree. Look at the Protection tree again and pay attention to just how much focus there is on Shield Slam.

What you're arguing is that there should be a replacement for Shield Slam and that the Protection tree should be built around whatever that replacement is. That's not particularly exciting for the rest of us who love Shield Slam. ;)


Mmmm I would disagree, I believe that the tree is defined by shields, of which shield slam is a part of it. Yeah there are a lot of talents that deal with our shields, but very few are exclusive to shield slam, most do something else that just happens to boost shield slam as well. Imp shield block, crit block, shield bash, shield mastery, all these buff more than shield slam. The only current talent thats shield slam exclusive is SnB.

Now don't get me wrong, I love shield slam, and I don't want to see it changed, but I still want an iconic 31 point talent in the tree, something that says "I'm cool, and the reason I specced into this tree," not just improvements to a now baseline talent, and some other talent that just doesn't sit well with me from a happiness perspective, Vigilance.

Daimon
09-05-2008, 12:51 PM
The same thing happened to the druid innervate, it was the top of the resto tree, there was no resto druid that wanted to raid w/o innervate. After blizzard put it in the spell book and until today one of the 1st things they think when invite a tree to raid is "nice innervate and bres, FTW!"
Similar analogy applies for the prot warrior, I won't see SS being removed from the rotations ever. And as Cider pointed, there are 2 if not 3 talents that buff SS. And worries about fury and arms using it for dps and therefore making use of was a pure prot spec talent will be absurd because they will have to hybrid spec into proct and lose some core talents from their own trees.

Aldragoriad
09-05-2008, 01:05 PM
Not the point I was trying to make at all Daimon. I don't really care about fury and arms having access to it for dps purposes or whatever. I just feel that prot lost something with the removal of shield slam from the tree. Its has very little to do with anything mechanical or balance wise, and a LOT more to do with the feel of the tree. It just doesn't feel right without an iconic 31 point talent, which vigilance is not, otherwise we'd have been drooling over it before the most recent change. Just like people have had a hard-on for SnB even though its fairly clunky and way too many talent points. Its an aesthetic problem, which I think a lot of people are feeling, but not recognizing as what exactly the problem is.

To put it another way, the "replacement" I pulled out of my ass earlier came to me because I thought to myself, it would just be fucking awesome to basically knock someone over with my shield and I'm really disappointed that shield slam doesn't have that in the current animation. What can I come up with as a mechanic that would add it. Now since stuns are A) useless against a boss, and B) annoying on trash, what other mechanic could I use to convey getting laid out by a 4 foot chunk of metal, oh hay daze works just great. I know if I just got smacked in the face with a barn door I'd be kinda loopy for a few seconds.

This is the kind of thing I think blizzard has missed, especially with their stated "goal" of making prot, and tanking in general more "fun."

etakerns
09-05-2008, 01:09 PM
Two questions for the peeps that have been lvliing in Beta thus far. in relation to what gear should i be grinding for now to give myself an edge when lvling when DK is released. Would all badge gear carry me to 80 or at least the majority of the way. Cider is suggesting str. for all aspect of lvling, but how will block fit in to high shield slams and so forth?

Orenus
09-05-2008, 01:14 PM
I see your point Al, but I think it's a sentiment that will fade very quickly. I've got to go with Cider on this one; Shield Slam still defines us, even if Arms and Fury warriors can use it. Sure, they can Shield Slam, but not like we can.

And I agree that a knockdown on Shield Slam would look pretty cool, but part of being a prot warrior is valuing function over form. Vigilance may not be flashy, but it's solid as hell.

Urhan
09-05-2008, 01:19 PM
I hope you're right about all of this, Cider, because you're putting your reputation in Blizzard's hands here. Last time around, it was Aedak talking about how great the warrior changes in the expansion would be, and he's not exactly remembered fondly now. If somebody sees you on a Death Knight a week into the expansion, the Warrior forum will be breaking out the tar and feathers it didn't use last time. ;)

Aldragoriad
09-05-2008, 01:30 PM
I see your point Al, but I think it's a sentiment that will fade very quickly. I've got to go with Cider on this one; Shield Slam still defines us, even if Arms and Fury warriors can use it. Sure, they can Shield Slam, but not like we can.

And I agree that a knockdown on Shield Slam would look pretty cool, but part of being a prot warrior is valuing function over form. Vigilance may not be flashy, but it's solid as hell.

While it may fade quickly, I believe its what the majority of people feel when they talk about the issue at the moment. Hence my having a problem with it in Ciders original post.

As far as the function over form thing, Blizz has pretty much blanket stated they want more flash for "fun" to go with value for what we need. I don't want vigilance to go away, I just want it moved to another slot and something awesome put in the 31 point talent. I want both flashy and solid, since thats what Blizz keeps trying to promise.

Daimon
09-05-2008, 01:32 PM
As how I see it: old Vigilance wasn't worth my attn, the new turn of Vigilance so far and hoping it's mechanic "work as intended" fullfills what I needed, it gives me peace of mind. Is actually a passive move in my point of view in the way it doesn't atacks directly; but nevertheless a great one. Is a matter of taste, I like it and I know it will be use oftenly by all of us.
Remember at the beggining of Devastate few ppl actually spec for it, now is like mandatory.

Beauieux
09-05-2008, 01:42 PM
Al, I don't really understand what the problem is. The way you're talking, it sounds like you would be happier with Shield Slam back in the 31pt slot and (re)moving Vigilance from either that slot or the tree altogether. Since its an "aesthetic issue", it really sounds like you would be satisfied to have what we have right now - that "tree defining" ability sitting in the 31pt slot.

So, why complain that we get an "extra" ability in Vigilance? It certainly does not hurt warriors or their ability to tank. Are you saying you want a new 31pt talent to base the tree around? That would mean that Shield Slam would presumably become less important, and the tree would likely need a significant redesign.

In my opinion, the thing this affects mostly is non-prot warriors. They now have access to Shield Slam. Does that irritate you? I personally don't care too much because it is good for them and I still get a new ability and significant upgrades to the existing Shield Slam.

MS is still the defining Arms ability. Bloodthirst is still the defining Fury ability. Shield Slam is still the defining Prot ability.

The only difference is, Prot warriors' ability was made baseline, so we don't have to spend a talent point on it, and we get to spend it on a brand new, helpful (even if not irreplaceable) ability.

In short, why the long face?

etakerns
09-05-2008, 01:45 PM
Im not going to say i aggree w/ any1 on the 31pt. vigilance spec. , but i will say that Aldra really puts up a good argument and stands his ground. I think this is what these threads are good for in a way that some1 may see something in a diff. way. I never thought about something more designing as a 31pt. vigi spec. but now im starting to see things in a diff. way and thinking that maybe something else wouldn't be a bad idea. And if something else would be more defining than vigilance and maybe there could be something else other than What Aldra suggest. All in all its not a bad idea in the least.

Satrina
09-05-2008, 02:23 PM
I hope you're right about all of this, Cider, because you're putting your reputation in Blizzard's hands here

While there are a few things I've commented on that I would personally like to see happen to make things perfect from my perspective, I do agree with Cider that the warrior tank will be just fine in WLK. It may be that there will be a bit of tweaking in patch 3.1 or 3.01 (not necessarily to warriors!), but they are not going to leave anyone in the lurch.

Thrym
09-05-2008, 02:47 PM
Just got a beta invite yesterday, and got to try it out a bit today.

I went out on the town in my DPS gear, which is a mix of badge, PVP, ZA, and T5 stuff. I can't remember the overall AP/Crit numbers, but I do know that with at one point with an item proc I hit 2500ap.

Anyway, the first thing I noticed is that with my rather strength heavy dps gear, my block value was very similar to my actual tanking block value set(obviously, avoidance and HP took a nosedive). In terms of effectiveness for this stat, DPS gear seemed to be the way to go, since BV was very similar and AP/Crit where drastically increased.

I did not spec vigilance at this time, but it wasn't exactly out of protest--it was simply out of pure tree bloat and I had to make concessions here and there because it simply didn't fit everything in. When the time comes to actually tackle some group play, I'll pick it up. One way or another, I think Blizzard deserves a bit more feedback based on actual usage with this talent.

As far as "fun" and defining stuff, shield slam is still very much there. 1400-1600 point crits where so common that I actually found myself dissapointed when they didn't happen.

Another that I really enjoyed--and walked into as a relative unknown to me-- was shockwave. It was very defining(people where actually sending me tells to inquiry about my impressions of it), and I found myself anxiously awaiting the cooldown on it to use it again. The damage was solid, and the cone wasn't nearly as cumbersome to aim as I had been lead to believe. The stun didn't seem particularly rage starving with the extra white damage rage generation(which will ostensibly translate into our tank gear, in the end).

Sword and Board appeared to not be working very well, it wasn't refreshing the shield slam cooldown. Also, without refreshing the cooldown, I found several times that I wasted the proc because I couldn't get a slam off in time with it.

And in the two hours I wandered around killing stuff with my new toys, I ate twice and bandaged twice. Both times that I had to eat where because I pulled everything I could find(5-6 at once) to try to stress test myself. I never really found my limit, with creative cooldown and consumable use I probably could have killed twice that number.

So overall, I have to agree that it is shaping up very well, and it looks very promising. I have an even greater confidence that the little tweaks will work their way in, and the base that is already there is pretty darn solid.

Urhan
09-05-2008, 03:15 PM
While there are a few things I've commented on that I would personally like to see happen to make things perfect from my perspective, I do agree with Cider that the warrior tank will be just fine in WLK. It may be that there will be a bit of tweaking in patch 3.1 or 3.01 (not necessarily to warriors!), but they are not going to leave anyone in the lurch.

Yeah, it looks to me like it's going to be OK, too, particularly once glyphs are added into the mix, and I can't imagine Cider doing something as cynical as what Aedak did by talking up the changes and then jumping to paladin. But if Blizzard somehow blows it and we're broken on launch day, there's going to be some finger-pointing at the guy who said things would be great, no matter how accurate and honest that statement was at the time it was made.

MontanaTaur
09-05-2008, 03:27 PM
I like the enraging regeneration ability. It is nice we are getting a staple feral power in return for all our panic buttons that bears have been granted.


Out of curiosity, what panic buttons have bears gotten exactly? So far I see exactly 1 -- Berserk's "last stand" like ability, and it is a 51-pt talent (as opposed to your 11-pt version), and it does so many things at once, there's a good chance it won't be off CD when you need it. If there are other panic buttons that you have that have been given to bears, I'd love to know what they are (being a feral druid myself).

Your new regen, incidentally, is better than the feral version. You get 30% for 15 rage. For a bear to get 30% health out of the beta FR, it costs a full rage bar (100 rage). The feral version converts rage to health, so if you don't have a full bar when you pop it, you don't get the full 30%. (Even so, the beta version IS better than the live version, where you get a fixed amount rather than a percent.)

I'm all in favor of all tanks being good and viable, and I think it is great you all got a self-heal, so don't take this the wrong way. It is just your post made it sound like lots of abilities like shield wall and so on were going to bears, and as far as I can tell, that is not the case. I've been pretty disappointed with the druid trees so far, as I was hoping for a few more buttons to push while tanking.

I just got into beta yesterday, so hopefully I'll get to try some of this stuff soon.

Ciderhelm
09-05-2008, 04:03 PM
I hope you're right about all of this, Cider, because you're putting your reputation in Blizzard's hands here. Last time around, it was Aedak talking about how great the warrior changes in the expansion would be, and he's not exactly remembered fondly now. If somebody sees you on a Death Knight a week into the expansion, the Warrior forum will be breaking out the tar and feathers it didn't use last time. ;)

The thing about Aedak was, for everyone's complaints, he was 99% right on Fury and Arms arguments he made. Even if he was a prick about it, he was helpful to the community.

Wartank
09-05-2008, 06:17 PM
Well many of my concerns are vanishing quickly, not so much because i love every new talent (yet) but more so the feedback from blizz/ GC.

One of my main concerns with evening up all tanks was that we'd be left behind in with poor AOE. Recent comments look very positive, with the gap between best to worst AOEer said to be diminishing.

Rage once over gearing: Again this has been mentioned by blizz and is being addressed. More rage from larger damage, warbringer and looking at other ways to address the issue.

Damage: who doesnt like to see big numbers, a huge help in making prot fun. Lets face it, taking 3 times longer than dps classes to do dailies is not fun!

PvP: While not a huge issue for me, i do welcome becoming more pvp viable. It will be nice to hit a battleground with guildies once in a while and not feel like a ball & chain on the team.

Evening up skill: Blizz have mentioned they want the determing factor in picking tanks to be us. Our commitment, our gear, our skill. I cant ask any more than this!

The most pleasing thing: Blizz have heard us and are addressing pretty much ever major concern i had + others. I now have much more faith they will get the balancing right.

Very much looking forward to tanking in WOTLK

Aldragoriad
09-05-2008, 08:09 PM
Al, I don't really understand what the problem is. The way you're talking, it sounds like you would be happier with Shield Slam back in the 31pt slot and (re)moving Vigilance from either that slot or the tree altogether. Since its an "aesthetic issue", it really sounds like you would be satisfied to have what we have right now - that "tree defining" ability sitting in the 31pt slot.

So, why complain that we get an "extra" ability in Vigilance? It certainly does not hurt warriors or their ability to tank. Are you saying you want a new 31pt talent to base the tree around? That would mean that Shield Slam would presumably become less important, and the tree would likely need a significant redesign.

In my opinion, the thing this affects mostly is non-prot warriors. They now have access to Shield Slam. Does that irritate you? I personally don't care too much because it is good for them and I still get a new ability and significant upgrades to the existing Shield Slam.

MS is still the defining Arms ability. Bloodthirst is still the defining Fury ability. Shield Slam is still the defining Prot ability.

The only difference is, Prot warriors' ability was made baseline, so we don't have to spend a talent point on it, and we get to spend it on a brand new, helpful (even if not irreplaceable) ability.

In short, why the long face?


I accept that Shield Slam needed to be baseline to give other specs the ability to "tank better." However when they did that they really gave away the one "fun" thing that Prot had all to itself. Blizz keeps saying they want to make tanking and prot more fun. If thats the case I want a fun talent at 31, not something that while worthwhile and functional, is not very entertaining.

I don't want them to put shield slam back, it makes sense to make it baseline, but in return, I want a talent in the 31 slot that screams "take me, I'm cool," such as Bloodthirst or Mortal Strike.

I guess the best way to put it is, they keep talking about adding things to the tree to make it more fun and interesting, and all I see are either some rather poorly implimented ideas, such as Shockwave, which seems really clunky, and SnB, which is still way too bloated, or solid but unspectacular like Vigilance or Safeguard. Blizz needs to put its money where its mouth is and gimme something to get excited about, not more of the same...

Beauieux
09-06-2008, 07:27 PM
Blizz needs to put its money where its mouth is and gimme something to get excited about, not more of the same...


That's fair, I suppose I am a little easy to please in that regard. While much of the tree is devoted to improving on existing tanking abilities, I personally am very excited about the upcoming changes. I guess part of that is because I do like the way warriors tank right now, and I did not want them to completely do away with our style.

I'm excited for just about every new talent they have implemented, especially with the latest changes. And from the perspective of "replacing shield slam in the tree", yes, I agree that Vigilance does not carry the fun factor. I guess I simply don't look at where in the tree fun things are, as long as they're around (and they are, in my opinion).

Aldragoriad
09-07-2008, 01:59 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with the way things are shaping up, just not excited. I guess my feeling is that there are a lot of good things getting added in, but not very many exciting things.

Wyleai
09-08-2008, 01:23 AM
PVP Functionality Does Not Diminish PVE
Hate PVP and hate the idea of Protection having anything to do with PVP? Don't worry! The PVP talents are small and are in no way required to get deeper in the tree. In other words, they are 100% optional, and skipping them will not have a negative impact on the tanking functionality of the class.

What about PvP gear?

Right now in the present state of gearing a toon up, we're all forced to PvP at some point for often very long periods of time (such as needing 25,000 honor to get a Mace used to PvE raid tanking on a paladin).

If you don't like PvP -at all- this means spending a good month or more (or several if your disdain of PvP forces you to see playing your toon as a chore during this period - I don't have over 20 alts above level 30 for no reason...) stuck in something you don't enjoy just so you can get the basic tools needed to return to doing what you made your toon for to begin with.

You comment addresses not needing PvP talents, but that doesn't say we won't still be stuck in BGs and Arenas. Is this being addressed in gear as well? Will PvP or PvE finally be a choice again? Or am I going to still be stuck finding PvP twinks in my PUGs while those PvP twinks are stuck finding me in their BG?

protonly
09-08-2008, 07:27 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with the way things are shaping up, just not excited. I guess my feeling is that there are a lot of good things getting added in, but not very many exciting things.

I think some of the latest changes are *very* exciting. The warrior tree now has a lot less bloat with a few of the talents merged. Damage Shield is going to be a huge one (this is a omfg-i-crapped-my-pants ability) -- on par with holy shield to some degree. I suspect they will tone down its percentage because it just seems way OP after crunching some numbers with various sbv amounts.

Can't wait!!!!!!!!!!

mero12513
09-08-2008, 07:43 AM
What about PvP gear?

Right now in the present state of gearing a toon up, we're all forced to PvP at some point for often very long periods of time (such as needing 25,000 honor to get a Mace used to PvE raid tanking on a paladin).

I admit first off that a protection warrior may be the sole exception to this rule. I have never PvP'ed. Ever. I've simply never had a compelling gear upgrade from it. Although the shield *might* be slightly better mitigation than my Gruul shield, it's not enough to worry about when I can just push for the ZA shield or even the Hyjal shield soon.

Wait, to be fair, I did so about 4 rounds of AV to get enough honor for the lowest little pvp trinket. For Rage Winterchill. That's literally as much as I've ever done. I think I have somewhere along the lines of 200 lifetime honorable kills.

protonly
09-08-2008, 09:19 AM
What about PvP gear?
Right now in the present state of gearing a toon up, we're (prot pallys) all forced to PvP at some point for often very long periods of time (such as needing 25,000 honor to get a Mace used to PvE raid tanking on a paladin).

I think part of that problem was the outright shitty itemization for protection pallys. I would consider that a fundamental design flaw in the game that is fixed (I think/hope) in wrath. I suspect gearing up a pally in wrath will be the ease that gearing a warrior now is -- and i'm lookin forward to it. :)

Jinpachi
09-10-2008, 06:24 AM
correct me if im wrong,but does stormherald still stun? with the addition of shockwave,prot warriors now have a decent chance at a stunlock..or at least keep an opponent locked down long enough for the rest of the team to finish them off..i cant wait!
shockwave,conc.blow,int shout,shield bash for silences,imp revenge...at least for a one on one match it evens things out imho.

Dunmail
09-10-2008, 08:04 AM
It is a pity that Shield Slam doesn't have a knockdown, just for a bit of realism. Not quite sure how having a beefy type fizzing redly and smacking you with a large blunt piece of metal wouldn't have you lying on the floor spitting teeth (MGT springs to mind....) but there you go...

I actually had the chance to try out the beta (server stayed up long enough to retalent and try a few quests), although it was horrifically lagged, and a good 2-4 seconds between commands. It was quite a novelty running around in tanking gear (eh/avoidance), with a couple of dps bits on and just piling into mobs (waiting eternally to smack them....) and kill them with very little incoming damage. I only had a couple of s/b procs but it seems to be up, and a slam was a easy 1800 damage which isn't bad in defensive rather than aggressive gear and I still need to pickup the T6 shoulder/legs.

It is nice to see the 'tuning' now provide some payback, I wasn't too impressed having main tanking abilities handed out to all and sundry like many others. Just be nice to have a stable test server to actually move/level/do anything on.

Thrym
09-15-2008, 07:00 AM
The prot build plays really well when levelling, damage is high, and survivability is very good even in DPS gear.

As far as PvP goes, I've no idea if there will genuinely be a gear reason to go--but actually playing it is quite a bit of fun! The new shield reflect talent is a tremendous defense in PvP, as is the new shield block. The actual damage from shield bashes isn't at all bad, and devastate bringing on the sunders lets damage start to stack up quickly when the fight drags into the terms of a defensive warrior.

As far as stunlock goes, eh, not so much. Everything is on the same diminishing return, and as such you quickly deteriorate your durations on them. The new weapon throw coupled with shield bash silence fills a ton of that gap, however, and you can get a fairly substantial amount of time in which it's hard to get magic damage off on you.

In terms of starter gear, premade level 80 characters are available with the full blue starter set and purple PvP accents. Avoidance is positively abysmal in this gear, HP after talents sits at 21k and change, resilience is at 700 something. You could get your uncrittable status out of this stuff, but I'm not seeing anything as of yet to indicate that you'll want much of it for actual tanking duty.