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Ciderhelm
09-03-2008, 02:47 AM
Needless to say, I'm ecstatic about the changes Protection is seeing. There are still issues, so keep raising awareness of them, but let's not forget the amazing things we're seeing. Here's the latest:


Enraged Assault redesigned, now Enraged Regeneration: You regenerate 30% of your total health over 10 sec. This ability consumes all Enrage effects and prevents any from affecting you for the full duration. Must be enraged to use. Cost 15 rage, 3 min cooldown.
This is absolutely awesome. This fits perfectly with Improved Defensive Stance, which will keep an Enrage effect active through almost everything we do. This will be great for virtually everything we do, from grinding to tanking to PVP, and could be the ability that finally makes grinding casters and elementals bearable.

Now couple this with the extraordinarily high Shield Slams we're seeing, the addition of Weapon Throw, and several other buffs, and what does this remind you of? Maybe they're watching! (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-news/38969-wotlk-what-fun.html#post93144)



Vigilance will soon transfer the 10% threat lost to the warrior. It will also have 3 charges to curb using it on targets that are being hit constantly. We’re still polishing this element to get it to feel right.
Vigilance has gone from bad to awesome. Coincidentally, I just read a post (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336798482&sid=1&pageNo=2#23) from Nephele on the WoW-US forums yesterday and thought, "that would be pretty cool." Quite happy to see this change!

You can find the rest of Gamnin's post here. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336581178&sid=2000&pageNo=1)


Protection PVP
I know many people in the community aren't looking to PVP as Protection. This is fine. However, I'm not part of this group, and I have to say I'm genuinely excited about the changes to class design to allow effective group PVP in as many specs as possible.

As it stands, Protection will bring the following: Shield Slam burst damage (and crits!), Dispels, single target and conal AOE stuns, and, thanks to Safeguard/Warbringer, very high mobility.

It needs to be emphasized that this is a direction they are taking classes across the game -- it isn't unique to tanks. PVP buffs aren't coming in at the expense of PVE performance.

With that said, I can effectively close the chapter on what I once felt (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/theory-articles/35800-protection-pvp-open-letter-blizzard.html) was a futile effort (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/blogs/ciderhelm/18-improving-protection.html).

Arudar
09-03-2008, 03:10 AM
Very nice changes overall. The 10% threat change to vigilance is awesome, but I am a little concerned about the "3 charges" aspect. Think of the amount of raid damage that goes around in boss fights - if every little bit of damage counts as a charge, it's going to last no time at all, and it'll be a pain to keep reapplying. It's certainly going in the right direction, but needs more tweaking yet (to be fair, which blizzard have admitted).

I am in love with the Enraged Generation change. There's the survivability talent we've been yammering for.

Still a bit baffled by the nerf to sword and board - a talent that was already underpowered. Hopefully this just means a big boost to the numbers is coming soon. Equally baffled by the charge talent - if it was in defensive stance I might be enticed, but battle stance? I can't see any great reason to take this right now.

Ciderhelm
09-03-2008, 03:14 AM
Equally baffled by the charge talent - if it was in defensive stance I might be enticed, but battle stance? I can't see any great reason to take this right now.
As someone who is in love with Improved Intercept, all I can say is that this is good. It's designed for PVP and it's in a place where it's 100% optional (i.e. you'll never need to take it to get to a later tier).

Would it be better in Defensive Stance? Absolutely. But I'll find a point for it regardless, because mobility is a godsend. In PVP, it may as well be called "Improved Safeguard," since it's a third means of breaking movement impairing effects.

Dots
09-03-2008, 03:16 AM
Pretty sure the Vigilance charges only get expended if the target is hit by melee to prevent it from chain resetting your Taunt cooldown if put on a mage who is AEing or something liek that.

Lilie
09-03-2008, 03:29 AM
/ahhhhhhh

a self heal :)

that is fun

Galushi
09-03-2008, 03:39 AM
Curious to see if the self heal will also give us some threat =)

Aughban
09-03-2008, 04:07 AM
Curious to see if the self heal will also give us some threat =)

It will definatly generate threat, i just wonder how much threat.

Galushi
09-03-2008, 04:12 AM
Well this is just a guess, but if its a 30% hp heal and if a tank has around 20k hp, gets full use of the heal (isnt topped off so none is overheal), gets 1 threat per 2 healing, and is in defensive stance...

(.30)*(20,000)*(.5)*(1.45) = 4350 Threat. Um...Not bad at all.

Galushi
09-03-2008, 04:15 AM
Oh since i dont think i can edit my previous message...

I'd probably pop this as soon as the first enrage buff procced after engaging the boss, the initial heal threat to establish agro and health gain itself would ease a pull by making your health spike less and reducing the chance for your healers to pull agro.

Rak
09-03-2008, 04:16 AM
It would have to depend on the boss fight. On many fights I imagine keeping the enrage buff for 10% more damage would be more threat than the HoT (which would be overheal on many fight openers).

Jasra
09-03-2008, 04:17 AM
It's interesting, but doesn't it seem odd that a baseline ability (Enraged Regeneration) would be 100% useless for a protection warrior who didn't spend points in improved defensive stance?

Galushi
09-03-2008, 04:17 AM
Oh i guess that's true since the HoT buff prevents you from gaining the Enrage buff right away. That is a tough call.

Rak
09-03-2008, 04:18 AM
Not really because it seems like it's aimed more at DPS warriors than tanks. It strikes me as being more of a pvp/grinding ability, with prot uses being a bonus.

Aughban
09-03-2008, 04:18 AM
It would have to depend on the boss fight. On many fights I imagine keeping the enrage buff for 10% more damage would be more threat than the HoT (which would be overheal on many fight openers).

yes but you enrage every time you block, dodge and parry (if you have 2 points in imp defencive stance), so it won't be long untill you enrage agian after using the 3 min CD.

Rak
09-03-2008, 04:19 AM
It will be at least 10 seconds before you enrage again, actually. Go read the post.

Aughban
09-03-2008, 04:23 AM
im sorry, 10 seconds is a long time now is it?

Galushi
09-03-2008, 04:23 AM
It's interesting, but doesn't it seem odd that a baseline ability (Enraged Regeneration) would be 100% useless for a protection warrior who didn't spend points in improved defensive stance?

Imp Def Stance isnt the only way to get "enraged" to be able to use Enraged Regeneration. I believe bloodrage and berserker rage can be consumed as enrage effects.

Ciderhelm
09-03-2008, 04:23 AM
Not really because it seems like it's aimed more at DPS warriors than tanks. It strikes me as being more of a pvp/grinding ability, with prot uses being a bonus.
I'm fairly certain it's aimed at all Warriors, not any specific subset. But then, I also don't think it's safe to be saying classifying tanks as separate from DPS warriors these days, in terms of the goal that they to be effective at grinding, etc.

Jasra
09-03-2008, 04:23 AM
Not really because it seems like it's aimed more at DPS warriors than tanks. It strikes me as being more of a pvp/grinding ability, with prot uses being a bonus.

But that's the whole point - I don't think there's anything in our baseline that does absolutely nothing unless you spend talent points to unlock it, regardless of who is "supposed" to use it.

Jasra
09-03-2008, 04:26 AM
Imp Def Stance isnt the only way to get "enraged" to be able to use Enraged Regeneration. I believe bloodrage and berserker rage can be consumed as enrage effects.

Oh, that would make sense if it's true. I never thought of those as "enraged", just as buffs. Hopefully we'll see this in beta soon to make sure.

Ciderhelm
09-03-2008, 04:26 AM
But that's the whole point - I don't think there's anything in our baseline that does absolutely nothing unless you spend talent points to unlock it, regardless of who is "supposed" to use it.
Dare I suggest that if you're level 74, you should probably have enough talent points spent to have an enrage in at least one tree? Improved Defensive isn't exactly a low-desirability talent! :D

That said, it's worth checking Bloodrage and Berserker Rage, as Galushi mentioned.

Rak
09-03-2008, 04:27 AM
im sorry, 10 seconds is a long time now is it?
Yes, if my dps has to hold back for 10 seconds at the start of a pull that is a very long time.

Galushi
09-03-2008, 04:28 AM
Dare I suggest that if you're level 74, you should probably have enough talent points spent to have an enrage in at least one tree? Improved Defensive isn't exactly a low-desirability talent! :D

That said, it's worth checking Bloodrage and Berserker Rage, as Galushi mentioned.

True, every talent tree does have some sort of proc based enrage.

Galushi
09-03-2008, 04:32 AM
In regards to the other discussion going here. For the 4300 threat (assuming best case) from the heal to be worse then 10% more dmg threat during that 10 second time period at the beginning of the pull, doesnt that mean youd have to already be doing 43k threat in 10 seconds, roughly equating to 4.3k tps. If you're already doing that much, isn't it kinda moot to gain another .4k tps. Yikes. lol I'd think health stability and and possible AE heal threat would be more useful.

Rak
09-03-2008, 04:34 AM
The issue is that when a tick is overheal, it doesn't give you any threat. So it's possible threat, but also possibly none.

Sharlos
09-03-2008, 04:37 AM
did you take account that healing usually generates 1/2 threat?

Galushi
09-03-2008, 04:38 AM
Well yeah. Thats why i said 4300 threat best case. Though i think even 75% overheal, and only using 1k heal threat of it would put it at par with 1k tps over 10 seconds as far as balancing the 10% enrage dmg.

It all will come down to the pull really and what specific needs you have. I can see it being pretty useful though.

Galushi
09-03-2008, 04:40 AM
did you take account that healing usually generates 1/2 threat?

Yeah that was why i multiplied by (.5) in that formula i had on page 1.

(.3)(20,000)(.5)(1.45) = 4350

30% times total health times 1/2 threat per healing times defensive stance

Urhan
09-03-2008, 05:05 AM
Good changes, but now that vigilance is a must-have that's two more points that have to be spent in a crowded prot tree. Hopefully a few points get freed up by consolidation.

I wonder how enraged regeneration will interact with last stand and other temporary health increases? At 30000 hp, it'd increase the heal by 2700 if the regeneration takes the extra health into account, and it'd be usable every other regeneration. Not advisable in a boss fight, but nice for grinding.

Extermi
09-03-2008, 05:08 AM
Congratulations to my warrior buddies, that is an extremely nice buff fur survivability, grinding and PvP. I have been seeing our Druid tanks using their similar ability to much use in different situations.

Its funny that we Paladins are now the only tanking class that has no on-demand self-heal in the game (at least not wenn being hit by something big), a bit funny if you think of what a Paladin is. But I'm not complaining since I also like our WotLk package so far, and it makes absolutely sense for a warrior to have this.

What strikes me is the comment on PvP viability, I, for one, would be very happy if they would also make our def trees usable.

Prot Paladins have at least some healing and some burst capabilities; together with our survivability that has been our story so far but it was not enough to get remotely competitive - maybe this will change. The story for warriors seems to take form, it seems.

Arrivan
09-03-2008, 05:22 AM
What do they plan on changing about Unending Fury if they go ahead with the change to Enraged Assault? Speaking from the perspective of a Fury warrior, I am unimpressed with Enraged Regeneration for DPS (although I do like it for tanking). What is going to take the place of Enraged Assault in an Arms rotation?

Galushi
09-03-2008, 05:26 AM
Well they did fix slam so that it merely pauses your 2h swing timer instead of reseting it. You could pretty much weave that in anytime you have the rage and only delay your white hits the .5 seconds

Arrivan
09-03-2008, 05:32 AM
I did see that, which is good news for Arms. Fury won't use it outside of Bloodsurge procs though because we don't get Imp. Slam, although I don't think it'll be much of a problem for us anyway. Oh well, time will tell how it goes I guess.

dotOrion
09-03-2008, 06:28 AM
Now couple this with the extraordinarily high Shield Slams we're seeing, the addition of Weapon Throw, and several other buffs, and what does this remind you of? Maybe they're watching! (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-news/38969-wotlk-what-fun.html#post93144)


Let's hope they are !

Blizz delivers :cool:

Also, boss practice dummies (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336666788&pageNo=2&sid=2000#29) ftw !



In an upcoming update one of the dummies will be level 80 with normal lvl 80 mob stats, the other will be a "boss" dummy with normal lvl 80 boss mob stats.

Enjoy!

mero12513
09-03-2008, 06:38 AM
Also, boss practice dummies (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336666788&pageNo=2&sid=2000#29) ftw !

I'd like to present a formal motion that the practice dummies be named after tankspot theorycrafters. After all, that's who's going to be using them. I'd love a screenshot of Satrina beating on a wooden dummy names Xav.

On a more serious note, these are great changes to see for our tanking, grinding, and pvp. However, I still believe that the prot warrrior needs a viable raid buff. If all tanks are viable main tanks (which I'm fine with), why take one that can't buff the raid over one who can?

veneretio
09-03-2008, 06:42 AM
Well, it's good to know we can all rest now... Vigilance is amazing.

10% threat increase basically with a few cool possibility of micromanaging it between the highest threat generators to keep numerous people at lower than normal levels on a mob. Very, very cool.

Belak
09-03-2008, 06:58 AM
I think these are fantastic changes too. However, this does make me curious about something -

Is there any reason we WON'T want to be Enraged? I saw a few reasons, but wasn't sure how serious they were:

Warrior:
Rend (Rank 10)
Wounds the target causing them to bleed for 300 damage plus an additional [ (30% of MWS * AP) / 14 + 15% of MWB + 15% of mwb ] (based on weapon damage) over 15 sec. If the target becomes Enraged, Rend causes four times the normal damage.
10 Rage, 5 yd range, Instant

Rogue:
Hunger for Blood (Assassination Talent)
Enrages you, increasing all damage caused by 5%. If used while a Bleeding or Magic effect is afflicting you, it will remove one Bleed and one Magic effect and refund the energy cost. This effect can be stacked up to 3 times. Lasts 10 sec.
30 Energy, Instant

(And will that cleanse the rogue before or after the Rend enrage bonus procs?)

Those were the only 2 I found quickly. Did I miss any? Just trying to make sure that there isn't going to be a significant downside to this.

Kavtor
09-03-2008, 08:45 AM
10% threat increase basically with a few cool possibility of micromanaging it between the highest threat generators to keep numerous people at lower than normal levels on a mob. Very, very cool.

I'm still curious about the balance. Does that mean the tanks with out it do 10% more base threat than warriors, so they can tank with out it? Or that threat really doesn't become a concern, since I can take 10% of the top guys threat?


As someone who is in love with Improved Intercept, all I can say is that this is good. It's designed for PVP and it's in a place where it's 100% optional

Sure, but... if you're going to PVP, why don't you pick up improved intercept? (and MS) Arms still can use shields for the dispel and spell reflect.

I can see better places to spend that point for a primary tank build, so if I'm going to respec to PVP, I'm going to respec arms, not a hybrid prot PVP build. I'd be all for a -real- viable prot PVP build, (I do the pvp daily often enough as prot) but there's no way it's there yet. You're not generating enough rage, and you're not a big enough threat or distraction to encourage people to focus you.

If this is still a process with many changes to come, then fine. But Ghost's comments seemed to indicate that prot PVP wasn't something that was going to -really- happen right now. So it's a talent that will appeal to the folks who loved to spec deathwish / shield slam, and while it's a fun novelty, it's a long way from actually viable, and thus doesn't seem to be a valuable allocation of their limited design time.

It's encouraging to see them trying to close the gap, but if they're going to try, they should go all the way, not just add one talent, along side a host of prot talents that are -only- in effect when you're tanking.

The new imp. defensive stance looks to be an effective, and fun tank talent. But why can't I get enraged when someone else is tanking and I'm 'DPSing'? Or when I'm PVPing? In both cases, no one is hitting me. Critical block should proc off of my shield slams, rather than my shield blocks, so it can be used offensively.

Vigilance should have a greater over all damage reduction, (and include magic damage) ala pain suppression to make it more attractive in PVP. Or set it up soul link style, such that you really can 'protect' an ally. Or a flat 15% damage reduction on your vigilance target, so the enemy is encouraged to attack you to remove the buff. Between that and safeguard, we could really frustrate a PVP team. Assuming we had an MS effect.

Kavtor
09-03-2008, 09:00 AM
Can't edit news posts with my new thought!

A more powerful suppression style vigilance has certain PVE implications in order to make it more attractive for PVP. Especially regarding excessive protection on another tank.

The balance implications are that DK's and Druid tanks can't protect a teammate. But Paladins have Hand of Protection, or you can use it to bring another source of the resto shamans Spirit Link. Following the pattern of spreading around useful buffs to multiple classes. Lower the damage transfer percent to account for the extra power that the warrior ability would have because of it's threat transfer.

veneretio
09-03-2008, 10:01 AM
Make Charge usable in Defensive Stance, but generate no rage when in combat.

Voila! Problem Solved!

Next?

Alent
09-03-2008, 10:10 AM
Now if only they'd fix Avenger's shield. :)

AnvilDK
09-03-2008, 10:26 AM
Going arms means you lose devastation and the whole option of tanking.

Me personally I am a sword and board protection tank because that is the playstyle and responsibility that appeals to me. Sure once in a while I spec arms or fury but I always go back to my protection build.
Once you got the gear the other specs are only decent at pvp. I even grind protection. The downtime is virtually nonexisting as protection. Yes we do not kill as fast but we are not that far behind again. And we survive bad situations 10 times better.

The appeal of the Protection tank in pvp ?

Shield slam dispel is better then a dispel. If you hit a shielded priest and your dispel goes through your shield slam hits the priest without the shield absorbing anything.
Shield bash with talents silence 3 seconds. Damage scales with ap.
Devastate has build in sunders lowering armor class on a cloth class is not to be denied its a huge hit to their mitigation.
Spell Reflect ... well reflect a spell ... says it all.
Charge in combat... never be starved for rage.
Concussion blow stun
Shockwave cone stun plus damage that scales with ap.
Intervene with safeguard can deny the opposing team a kill opportunity.
Charge Intervene and Intercept all remove snare effects with safeguard.
Shield Block makes you virtually impervious to physical damage classes for 10 seconds.

Some of these things can be done by any warrior but Arms and Fury warriors will be married to their 2H weapons. That is what makes them deadly and dangerous. Sure they can situational equip a shield but it will severly impact their ability to dish out the hurt.

Protection tanks are more of a survival class with great short CC. Direct dispel interrupt and built in debuff that improves their damage.

We will be annoying as hell and impossible to ignore for fear of our ability to render their focus fire ineffective be it with stunning the right person to safeguarding the right ally.

Vigilance gives 5% dodge might be a nice buff for an ally.

A personal ambition of mine is to make an arena team of 2 Protection warriors and a protection paladin ... just to see what happens.

Sure we might not kill fast but be fun to see just how viable we will be.

Schleppy
09-03-2008, 10:56 AM
Vigilance is still crap on a stick. If you need that 10% threat either the person you cast it on screwed up or you did. It's only point other then allowing bad dps'ers raid spots or bad tanks raid spots is..... Hell, I can't think of one good thing about it.


As far as an arms or fury warrior wearing a shield, well, that only really hurts the arm's warrior, as he has to use a 1-hander with no points in improving his 1-handed damage. however a fury warrior can use a 2-hander+shield and only loose out on what, WW damage from that offhand weapon? I'm fairly sure the ability to SS will more then offset that damage decrease from having a shield instead of another 2-hander equipped for WW, so it only hurts your white damage since enraged assault is going the way of death wishes fear immunity.

mero12513
09-03-2008, 11:08 AM
Vigilance is still crap on a stick. If you need that 10% threat either the person you cast it on screwed up or you did. It's only point other then allowing bad dps'ers raid spots or bad tanks raid spots is..... Hell, I can't think of one good thing about it.


No offense, but this simply isn't true. Only if you outgear content should you be perfectly fine on both threat and survival. Even if you could hold aggro on your own, there is no reasonable way to do so without putting on some aggro gear. Simply because threat stats cost itemization points, you WILL lose SOME amount of survival/mitigation by doing so. By siphoning 10% of a high dps-er's threat, you allow yourself to spend less itemization on threat and more on survival. This eases the load on your healers, which allows you more room for bad luck, errors, or even to bring more dps in your raid instead of healers, speeding content.

Taelas
09-03-2008, 11:48 AM
I'm personally still not overly impressed by Vigilance. :/ It's an awesome buff, yes -- but it's clunky. Why would I want to rely on a DPSer to do my threat for me?

And the 5% dodge/taunt refresh still seems absolutely useless 90% of the time.

jere
09-03-2008, 11:53 AM
Actually I am curious about the implications of the new vigilance. Will the other tanks be balanced around not having it in terms of threat generation or is the idea to make one of warrior's niches be "generates most single target threat" (it may not accomplish this at all, just speculating since we don't have any numbers). It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Aughban
09-03-2008, 11:53 AM
I'm personally still not overly impressed by Vigilance. :/ It's an awesome buff, yes -- but it's clunky. Why would I want to rely on a DPSer to do my threat for me?

And the 5% dodge/taunt refresh still seems absolutely useless 90% of the time.
`

well tbh its probably going to change agian, the point of it being in the game atm is to see if it works however i agree the taunt refresh and dodge does seem a little pointless at times however i think that 10% reduced threat is invaluable.

Alent
09-03-2008, 11:55 AM
I still think Vigilance should be given to every tank class as a "Trained at level #" thing. Paladins could make even more use of it due to Righteous Defense's unmercifully long cooldown.

veneretio
09-03-2008, 12:05 PM
Actually I am curious about the implications of the new vigilance. Will the other tanks be balanced around not having it in terms of threat generation or is the idea to make one of warrior's niches be "generates most single target threat" (it may not accomplish this at all, just speculating since we don't have any numbers). It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
I think at one point they had stated that they wanted warriors to be the threat kings on single targets. (but who knows... regardless they'll balance all this in someway)

The interesting implications of this talent is that your raid could bring along 1 person from another guild that grossly outgears the tank and it wouldn't hinder that person at all. This could be especially relevant in a 5 and 10 man setting.

Kavtor
09-03-2008, 12:40 PM
Charge in combat... never be starved for rage.
Concussion blow stun
Shockwave cone stun plus damage that scales with ap.

Can we do something about the stun on charge? Make it a one second disorient or something? If they're going to try to make the in combat charge work, can it please not give diminishing returns on my concussion blow?

AnvilDK
09-03-2008, 12:54 PM
Can we do something about the stun on charge? Make it a one second disorient or something? If they're going to try to make the in combat charge work, can it please not give diminishing returns on my concussion blow?

I belive they changed charge and Intercept to not count towards diminishing returns. I can not confirm it I do not pvp. Just remember a patch way back that addresse this issue.
Regardless 15 rage (25 with improved charge) every 15 seconds makes it the most rage giving talent over time. Closest thing is intensify fury with improved beserker rage for 20 rage every 20 seconds plus the unknown more rage on hit bonus. And that costs 5 talent points.

Rage will be less of an issue in mobile pvp fighting. Time will tell if it does not get nerfed 6 feet under.

AnvilDK
09-03-2008, 01:06 PM
well I found the patch however I remembered incorrectly.

Like way back when. Do not think they changed it since. So I guess your fears are justified.

Patch 1.90 (Warrior section)


Execute - Improved Execute and other discounts to the Execute ability will now correctly convert the resulting extra rage into damage.
Retaliation - This ability will no longer lose charges when the attacker is behind the warrior.
Sword Specialization - Special attacks such as Sinister Strike, and Mortal Strike now properly trigger the chance to gain an extra attack.
Sweeping Strikes - Whirlwind and Retaliation will now correctly consume the charges from Sweeping Strikes.
Bloodthirst - The damage component has been increased to 45% of attack power.
Enrage - The talent will now grant 5/10/15/20/25% extra damage when enraged, instead of 8/16/24/33/40%.
Mace Specialization - The stun effect's duration no longer diminishes or is diminished by controlled stun abilities and spells (e.g. Cheap Shot, Hammer of Justice, Charge etc...).
Improved Revenge - The stun effect's duration no longer diminishes or is diminished by controlled stun abilities and spells (e.g. Cheap Shot, Hammer of Justice, Charge etc...).
Unbridled Wrath - Only normal melee swings will trigger the rage generation from this ability.

Schleppy
09-03-2008, 01:16 PM
No offense, but this simply isn't true. Only if you outgear content should you be perfectly fine on both threat and survival. Even if you could hold aggro on your own, there is no reasonable way to do so without putting on some aggro gear. Simply because threat stats cost itemization points, you WILL lose SOME amount of survival/mitigation by doing so. By siphoning 10% of a high dps-er's threat, you allow yourself to spend less itemization on threat and more on survival. This eases the load on your healers, which allows you more room for bad luck, errors, or even to bring more dps in your raid instead of healers, speeding content.


If other tanking classes dont have this mechanic, it's safe to assume encounters wont be made assuming this talent will be used. Since blizz has stated on many occasions they want groups to be able to run with any tank and get away from the current "formula's" people use to min/max the best tank for each fight, encounters will not be balanced around this talent. If encounters are balanced around us not needing to use this ability to tank the content, then how exactly do you need it to bypass the content? You are thinking of this in current game mechanics, which are not relevant to a discussion about wrath tanking mechanics I'm sorry to say.

-You will NEED to use to use it to make up for that bad dps'er who cant control their threat or those who don't understand aggro dump's..
-You will NEED to use it if you aren't such a hot tank to get enough threat to keep good dps'ers below you in aggro so they don't have to throttle their damage as much to complete the encounter.
-You will NEED to use this ability if your healers can't keep you alive without that extra 4-6% avoidance, and I guess it's easier to use this ability then to find better healers.

-You will not NEED to use this ability to kill bosses as the encounters wont be designed with the idea that whomever is tanking this boss will have it, otherwise any tanking class that does not have this ability would be unable to tank that encounter.

After reading my post here I have to say I am not trying to come across as attacking you for your comment, but your post seems to ignore the fact we have had a considerable amount added to our threat-generation without this talent so if we in fact NEED to steal 10% of a party-members threat to beat an encounter, didn't blizzard do something wrong with the talents in the first place?

veneretio
09-03-2008, 01:33 PM
-You will NEED to use to use it to make up for that bad dps'er who cant control their threat or those who don't understand aggro dump's..
-You will NEED to use it if you aren't such a hot tank to get enough threat to keep good dps'ers below you in aggro so they don't have to throttle their damage as much to complete the encounter.
-You will NEED to use this ability if your healers can't keep you alive without that extra 4-6% avoidance,
As much as you're trying to make a negative spin here, I read these all as great things. It's going to make players with average threat have good threat. It's going to allow high aggro classes/specs to do solid dps and maintain high aggro. It's going to allow me to gear more for survivability and make my healer's job easier.

I don't really understand why you're trying so hard to find the bad in an obvious buff. They took a bad talent and made it good. Let's be happy about that :)

relgatta
09-03-2008, 01:41 PM
If other tanking classes dont have this mechanic, it's safe to assume encounters wont be made assuming this talent will be used. Since blizz has stated on many occasions they want groups to be able to run with any tank and get away from the current "formula's" people use to min/max the best tank for each fight, encounters will not be balanced around this talent. If encounters are balanced around us not needing to use this ability to tank the content, then how exactly do you need it to bypass the content? You are thinking of this in current game mechanics, which are not relevant to a discussion about wrath tanking mechanics I'm sorry to say.


In the end, no you won't "need" to use this talent. A group with any other tank will be able to do the same content just fine. This buff however lets the tank push his threat a bit more, which allows all DPS to push their dmg a bit more, and one DPS to push his dmg quite a bit more. So mobs will die faster. Will it be earth shatteringly faster? Probably not. But faster is better, even if it isn't mandatory to go faster.

ivanstone
09-03-2008, 02:45 PM
After reading my post here I have to say I am not trying to come across as attacking you for your comment, but your post seems to ignore the fact we have had a considerable amount added to our threat-generation without this talent so if we in fact NEED to steal 10% of a party-members threat to beat an encounter, didn't blizzard do something wrong with the talents in the first place?

One of your criticisms is that its a crutch for bad DPS or tanks but the facts are no one is flawless at the game and you may not have the most desirable raiding group. I regularly raid with people who could be better at the game or try to stroke their epeen at the expense of others. Sure we could gkick them but then we might not be able to raid. So we shoulder on with what we have, sometimes they improve and sometimes we laugh at them when they die. In any case its just a tool to help control an errant player or to help gimmick fights. Its also very good for small group encounters. For example, you can provide it to a mage and give them more latitude for AOE.

I should also point out that pallies have their own aggro control in the form of Hand of Salvation.

tobarstep
09-03-2008, 04:26 PM
Its also very good for small group encounters. For example, you can provide it to a mage and give them more latitude for AOE.


I've been wondering how it will work along these lines, actually. If you cast it on a single target dps, say a rogue, you'll gain 10% of his threat. On what? On the single mob he was fighting or the one you are fighting (assuming they aren't the same)? What if you cast it on a mage who is doing aoe damage to 5 mobs? Will you get 10% of his threat on all those mobs, or will you get 10% of his total threat just focused on your own current target? If it applied 10% of the threat on every single mob that he was generating threat against, this could be a fantastic tool for aoe tanking.

Schleppy
09-03-2008, 04:49 PM
As much as you're trying to make a negative spin here, I read these all as great things. It's going to make players with average threat have good threat. It's going to allow high aggro classes/specs to do solid dps and maintain high aggro. It's going to allow me to gear more for survivability and make my healer's job easier.

I don't really understand why you're trying so hard to find the bad in an obvious buff. They took a bad talent and made it good. Let's be happy about that :)

I'm not saying it's bad, (well, crap on a stick isn't a good thing, maybe I am saying it's bad) but it certainly isn't a "must have" thing. It's bad from my personal perspective as I play the role of drill sgt. when I tank in a pug or even in guild. I'd rather personally let the guy die who cast that fireball as I was firing my gun at the mob, he wont learn to be better otherwise. :) It's defintely part of blizzard's attempt to make the game more casual friendly and that is a good or bad thing depending on how you perceive that change to be.


I just think blizz could have done a lot better for a talent then this to replace shield slam. This is what 120 million a month buys us?

Jasra
09-03-2008, 04:54 PM
As much as you're trying to make a negative spin here, I read these all as great things. It's going to make players with average threat have good threat. It's going to allow high aggro classes/specs to do solid dps and maintain high aggro. It's going to allow me to gear more for survivability and make my healer's job easier.

I don't really understand why you're trying so hard to find the bad in an obvious buff. They took a bad talent and made it good. Let's be happy about that :)

I think I understand what he's trying to say, and it makes sense to me. The risk is the potential that having it trivializes threat gen and lacking makes it too hard to keep up, or that it gets nerfed to the point where we're back at square one because of either or both factors.

While it's in the "glass is half empty" side of perception, I think it's a justified concern. Personally I wish they would have scrapped that talent altogether and tried something less passive.

Now on more important issues, I hope Improved Defensive Stance doesn't mean protection warriors are going to be running around every dungeon constantly glowing bright red!!

veneretio
09-03-2008, 06:07 PM
I'm not saying it's bad, (well, crap on a stick isn't a good thing, maybe I am saying it's bad) but it certainly isn't a "must have" thing. It's bad from my personal perspective as I play the role of drill sgt. when I tank in a pug or even in guild. I'd rather personally let the guy die who cast that fireball as I was firing my gun at the mob, he wont learn to be better otherwise. :) It's defintely part of blizzard's attempt to make the game more casual friendly and that is a good or bad thing depending on how you perceive that change to be.


I just think blizz could have done a lot better for a talent then this to replace shield slam. This is what 120 million a month buys us?
Vigilance is probably going to do the same amount of threat as 2 points in Defiance does now. (at the very least, the same as 1 point did) I'd like you to try to sell any tank on 3/3 Defiance not being a must have.

What I find mind blowing is if it was a 1 point talent that said: You generate 5% more threat and get 6 Expertise... then people would have sang it's praises, but instead we get a talent that takes a little thought... is a little creative... but ultimately does the same or more and people call it not good enough?

I think too many people are getting caught up on it somehow having to be as good as Shield Slam was. Why does it? It's not like we lost Shield Slam. It's not like this slot in the talent tree must be something ridiculously uber. It's a strong threat talent. If you just want to offtank all day, it's probably fine skipping it, but I wouldn't want to be staring new content in the face as the main tank without it. It's a must-have in my books.

Ewanar
09-03-2008, 06:39 PM
what about the changes to Toughness.

Protection

* Toughness now also reduces duration of movement slowing effects by 10/20/30/40/50%.

sounds terrible to me.

MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies (http://www.mmo-champion.com/)

veneretio
09-03-2008, 07:10 PM
what about the changes to Toughness.

Protection

* Toughness now also reduces duration of movement slowing effects by 10/20/30/40/50%.

sounds terrible to me.

MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies (http://www.mmo-champion.com/)
It's a buff of an already good talent. How can this be terrible?

Lart
09-03-2008, 07:25 PM
Vigilance is probably going to do the same amount of threat as 2 points in Defiance does now. (at the very least, the same as 1 point did) I'd like you to try to sell any tank on 3/3 Defiance not being a must have.

Aren't current encounters designed based on the warrior tank having 3/3 defiance, paladin tanks having 3/3 Improved Righteous Fury, and Druid tanks
having 3/3 Feral Instinct.

Do you want them to design encounters based on the warrior tank having picked up vigilance? If you say yes, doesn't that screw over Druids, Paladins and Deathknights? If you say no, doesn't that make easy mode threat generation for a Warrior that does take it?

The 10% threat transfer seems OP to me, I expect it to get nerfed back to at least 5%, maybe even 1% if not just thrown completely away.

Just on some base numbers ( picked purely for ease of calculation ).

Warrior doing 1000 tps.
Ranged DPS riding the threat Cap doing 1300 tps

Vigilance on the Ranged DPS means that the tank has just gone up to 1130 tps. ( actually it's more than that, cause the Ranged DPS is now only doing 1170tps, and has an effective cap of 1469, so can go harder, and generate more threat for the tank to take 10% of ).

There'll be a mathematical formula to work this out correctly, but I haven't sat down to work it out yet.

This is assuming I understand what the current intention of vigilance is. Maybe it will only make the 10% calculation on raw threat generated before the +/- 10% is fed back into the equation.

veneretio
09-03-2008, 07:34 PM
Well considering we lost 6 expertise with the change to talents and Druids + Paladins both outthreated us last expansion by large, large amounts and it didn't trivialize any encounters.... I see no reason why the situation can't be reversed. Not to mention, it's not like Druids and Paladins didn't get new Threat abilities too.

Higher threat doesn't mean Easy mode. It just means we get to focus on cooldown usage more and DPS gets to push that much harder.

Sharlos
09-03-2008, 08:26 PM
Encounters wont be balanced around having vigilance.

Warriors will be balanced around having vigilance. When they are balancing warrior threat, they will take into account the threat vigilance is giving them when comparing threat to Paladins, Druids and Death Knights.

Lart
09-03-2008, 08:31 PM
And that makes it a mandatory tanking talent, which is the type of thing that they say they do not want to do, and then makes the proposed off spec tanking less viable.

Hypatia
09-03-2008, 08:38 PM
One other possibility is that Vigilance somehow won't be usable with misdirects or the rogue tricks thing. Then you could either have "warrior brings his own and can use it on anybody" or "rogues and hunters bring theirs and can use it on whoever is tanking".

Schleppy
09-03-2008, 08:52 PM
Encounters wont be balanced around having vigilance.

Warriors will be balanced around having vigilance. When they are balancing warrior threat, they will take into account the threat vigilance is giving them when comparing threat to Paladins, Druids and Death Knights.


That makes it even worse from my viewpoint. We didn't have issues keeping up on single target threat currently, but now all the sudden we NEED a talent that basically steals 10% of someone elses threat to be able to not threat-cap our party-mates?

Assume you do everything right rotation-wise and max out your tps, do we really want a situation where we NEED to take this talent to not throttle our dps'ers?

Look, we are all in W.A.G territory (Wild Ass Guess) here discussing this talent, nobody has raided as of yet to see if this is "required" or not. The thing that bothers me about Vigilance is, are we happy with a situation where we are put in a position based off class balance and encounter-tuning to "NEED" to steal 10% of someone elses threat to effectively hold threat and not throttle our dps? If we dont NEED it, then it's a useless talent for the most part, is it not? Are we not already trying to skim points in prot to get justified killing?

I'm not happy with what this talent tells us "between the lines", and I hope nobody else is either.

veneretio
09-03-2008, 09:08 PM
Are we not already trying to skim points in prot to get justified killing?

Nope, I don't even think that talent is worth going out of one's way to get. (don't mistake this for me saying it's bad or even weak)

I am glad you mentioned it though because at least it gives us some idea of what you'd rather see.

We are definitely at an crossroads though. I will never understand the attitude of: "If something is really good then I don't like it b/c I'll be forced to use it and if I'm not forced to use it then it's a waste since what's the point in being ridiculously powerful when powerful alone is good enough?"

The point is being able to tank for people beyond yourself. The point is being able to trivialize some aspects of an encounter in order to allow one to focus on another aspect of it. The point is being able to still do an encounter in a way that you otherwise couldn't have.

I think you walked into this with the wrong attitude. I think you want Vigilance to be bad because you want to justify not taking it because you want Justified Killing. Perhaps if you imagine a world without Justified Killing then you'd see things a bit more from our perspective.

rustyboy
09-03-2008, 09:09 PM
It really depends on what side of the coin your on.

1. Getting 10% threat of a guy in a pug who is still learning how to play gives more leverage to the tank who normally would just have to deal with it.

2. If your in a very geared experienced group you can utilise this talent to put it on the guy who doesn't have an aggro drop (ie warriors), or your top dps'r so he can even go harder, or the melee who have a higher chance of pulling aggro. You can put this on healers in 5 mans at the start of the pull and then transfer it to a DPS mid fight.

This talent is not about compensating for bad tanks/bad dps, its about giving the tank more flexibility. What if your a tank and your gearing up and a T7 mate wants to help you, he wont be much use if he can't do the DPS to help you.

rustyboy
09-03-2008, 09:13 PM
Justified Killing is not a needed talent for anyone going all the way down the Protection tree imo at the moment and even if I could get it easily I would still not waste the points on it. I see it as a way Blizzard are trying to make Parry more useful, something which in BC most Protection tanks avoided.

rustyboy
09-03-2008, 09:17 PM
I can see Vigilance becoming very important for 25 or 10 man encounters especially in raid progression guilds. I don't believe you will have to have it to stay above the DPS in threat, its just another tool which can be used.

What happened to the edit function -_-

Lart
09-03-2008, 09:22 PM
"If something is really good then I don't like it b/c I'll be forced to use it and if I'm not forced to use it then it's a waste since what's the point in being ridiculously powerful when powerful alone is good enough?"


In it's current form, ( pending confirmation of how it actually pans out ) I'll sure as hell be picking up vigilance. Why? Because it's +10 to +13% threat

I still believe that Blizzard have got it wrong.

They say they want any of the four tanks to be able to tank all Raid Bosses.
They adjust all the tanks so that the +threat talents are all baseline, also to make it easier for offspecs to be able to tank.
Then they turn round and add a +10% threat 1 point talent halfway down 1 tree for 1 class?

Doesn't make logical sense to me.

mero12513
09-03-2008, 09:48 PM
I don't understand why there is such a problem with using someone else to generate threat. Whether it's from expertise, block value, or the warlock standing behind you, threat is threat. It's good. Why be upset about it?

There is also a huge problem in your argument that you seem to dislike the idea that we should spend ONE talent point to get more threat. Even if you MUST have vigilance to put out reasonable tps, why is that such a huge problem?

Right now, there are TWO one-point talents in the prot tree that you wouldn't even consider dropping for more than 3 milliseconds: shield slam and devestate. If you have a problem spending one point for baseline threat generation talents, why did you pick those up?

Lart
09-03-2008, 10:12 PM
There is also a huge problem in your argument that you seem to dislike the idea that we should spend ONE talent point to get more threat. Even if you MUST have vigilance to put out reasonable tps, why is that such a huge problem?

Cause it's +10% threat. So either you're 10% up on the other 3 tanking classes, or even worse, you're equal, and tanking without it is not an option, despite blizzard saying they want less mandatory talents. Remember that they want all the tanks to be as close as possible in threat generation.


Right now, there are TWO one-point talents in the prot tree that you wouldn't even consider dropping for more than 3 milliseconds: shield slam and devestate. If you have a problem spending one point for baseline threat generation talents, why did you pick those up?

Because TBC talent trees and concepts != WOTLK talent trees and concepts.

bosephus
09-03-2008, 10:26 PM
Has anybody used the talent? It seems a bit awkward...while tanking a boss, I have to select the person I think is doing the most threat, use the skill, and then select the boss again. Or does this mean I'll actually have to start setting a /focus target?

Taelas
09-03-2008, 10:27 PM
I don't understand why there is such a problem with using someone else to generate threat. Whether it's from expertise, block value, or the warlock standing behind you, threat is threat. It's good. Why be upset about it?

Because you're relying on someone else to generate threat. If we are balanced with Vigilance in mind (I seriously doubt this, by the way -- I cannot see them doing that), we need a reliable DPSer to provide us with that threat.

Regardless, it's an awesome threat buff. Still not entirely happy with it.

mero12513
09-03-2008, 10:42 PM
I suppose I can concede that relying on someone else for threat is risky at best. It is, at any rate, and attempt to make the ability useful, which I see as a step in the right direction. Despite the buff, it's still awkward, and I can see where people are coming from on that regard.

However, I'm still waiting for blizzard to answer a very basic question:
Why should a raid bring a warrior tank?

We're all about equal main tanks, or at least they want us to be. If that's the case, why would you ever want the class that doesn't have BoK, a resurrection, a battle res, and innervate, or the semi-windfury deal that DK's have?

I see the 31 point talent as an opportunity to address this issue, as the community response to it has been sideways at best.

Alent
09-03-2008, 11:02 PM
Because you're relying on someone else to generate threat. If we are balanced with Vigilance in mind (I seriously doubt this, by the way -- I cannot see them doing that), we need a reliable DPSer to provide us with that threat.

Regardless, it's an awesome threat buff. Still not entirely happy with it.

Am I the only person who looks at Vigilance as a" what can we steal from EQ2 and bastardize into our own idea" thing? at this point it's a combination of Vigilance (give another tank a 5/7/9/11/13/15/17% chance to use your avoidance check if he fails his own) and Amends. (Give you 41% of a DPS'ers threat generation.)

Not that I'm complaining, but it's like... how much can you overload one ability with?

Schleppy
09-03-2008, 11:10 PM
Because you're relying on someone else to generate threat. If we are balanced with Vigilance in mind (I seriously doubt this, by the way -- I cannot see them doing that), we need a reliable DPSer to provide us with that threat.

Regardless, it's an awesome threat buff. Still not entirely happy with it.

Agreed completely. They can do a lot better then this. Where is my sundering cleave in this slot to cleave and sunder 2 targets? We could get a version of unbalancing strike here with a temporary ArP bonus for real threat increases. Instead we get an ability where we LEECH someone elses threat and give them a small threat reduction that they shouldn't need in the first place?


C'mon blizz, you can do better then that....

Alent
09-03-2008, 11:15 PM
Agreed completely. They can do a lot better then this. Where is my sundering cleave in this slot to cleave and sunder 2 targets? We could get a version of unbalancing strike here with a temporary ArP bonus for real threat increases. Instead we get an ability where we LEECH someone elses threat and give them a small threat reduction that they shouldn't need in the first place?


C'mon blizz, you can do better then that....

Spellbreaker, imo.

Schleppy
09-03-2008, 11:26 PM
Nope, I don't even think that talent is worth going out of one's way to get. (don't mistake this for me saying it's bad or even weak)

I am glad you mentioned it though because at least it gives us some idea of what you'd rather see.

We are definitely at an crossroads though. I will never understand the attitude of: "If something is really good then I don't like it b/c I'll be forced to use it and if I'm not forced to use it then it's a waste since what's the point in being ridiculously powerful when powerful alone is good enough?"

The point is being able to tank for people beyond yourself. The point is being able to trivialize some aspects of an encounter in order to allow one to focus on another aspect of it. The point is being able to still do an encounter in a way that you otherwise couldn't have.

I think you walked into this with the wrong attitude. I think you want Vigilance to be bad because you want to justify not taking it because you want Justified Killing. Perhaps if you imagine a world without Justified Killing then you'd see things a bit more from our perspective.

I don't want our 31 point prot talent to be bad, dont get me wrong at all, I just don't want to settle for this. I used justified killing as an example, not "my reason to not want vigilance". You are happy with warriors getting a threat reduction for a party member and a threat boost we probably don't need as a replacement talent for shield slam?

I'm not, and I know blizzard can do better then this.

Ciderhelm
09-03-2008, 11:54 PM
I don't want our 31 point prot talent to be bad, dont get me wrong at all, I just don't want to settle for this. I used justified killing as an example, not "my reason to not want vigilance". You are happy with warriors getting a threat reduction for a party member and a threat boost we probably don't need as a replacement talent for shield slam?

Nothing has replaced Shield Slam. That's a fairly important detail when we're talking about our 31-point talent.

Endyllion
09-04-2008, 12:36 AM
GhostCrawler latest post:

WoW Forums -> Dear Devs; want prot pvp to be viable? (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336801184&sid=2000)

---------------------------------------------------

Wall o' text coming...

As I said before, whether Protection shoud be viable for PvP is controversial. People on the extreme of both sides of the debate should be able to see pretty clearly that there are plenty of others who don't see their point of view. It's not an argument that is going to be won by debate, consensus or vote.

As I've also said, there are some things we want to do with Prot to improve it. We could make a very fat, very boring tree with 30 talents that promise excellent passive mitigation. I don't think that's going to make warriors any more fun to play. Here's what we'd like to do instead:

Add some more fun abilities to the tree. Warbringer is one such ability. It may not be something everyone will use, and honestly, we're cool with that. Some talents should be optional. We also know some tanks, even hardcore endgame ones are excited about the ability. As a tank it could be a good source of rage (Yes, we know you lose all your rage when stance dancing -- the design of Warbringer is not that you stupidly lose all your rage when you change to Battle Stance and then say oops.) It could also help your mobility on fights where you need to zip around a lot to put out fires -- that's part of tanking too. It's not all sitting there and getting hit by Brutallus.

To make room for some of those abilities, you have to have some options. The classic tanking build from BC doesn't leave you a lot of free talents. We need to combine a few mitigation talents together to buy you some space. Also, must haves like Imp Heroic Strike and Imp Thunder Clap may not be must haves anymore, because...

We're buffing Prot's dps. A lot. This is going to help with threat, and will make doing dps with a prot build (whether as OT, MT, leveling or doing daily quests) more fun. A lot of abilities that do +threat now are going to be doing +damage instead. You are going to see crits from Thunder Clap and Conc Blow that might blow your mind. You're going to hit Thunder Clap and have mobs stick to you long enough for you to use some other abilities. Oh and If you haven't tried Retaliation while tanking yet, it rules. For those who never got to enjoy the joys of Shield Slam with crazy +block, you'll soon get to.

Warriors lost a very comfortable tanking niche with the removal of crushing blows. We need to make sure there are still good reasons to take a Prot warrior. Vigilance and Safeguard are good starts there, but we're also looking at buffing signature abilities like Spell Reflect. A lot of the recent changes were intended as buffs, not nerfs. We'll get you your Expertise back. We'll get you your cheap Devastates back.

As we start to get the talent trees in better shape, we're going to be able to get a better handle on the state of balance. Simultaneously, people in the beta will start venturing into heroics and Naxx. This will start to give us some data for the first time on whether L80 Prot warrior threat or mitigation is too low compared to other classes. If it is, we'll fix it.

I mention that because we designed Vigilance not as a band-aid to fix Prot warrior threat (because we don't know if it's too high or low yet) but because we thought it would be fun. Use it on that reckless warlock who likes to pull aggro and you turn a weakness into a strength. Use it on your fragile healer and you can, yanno, actually *protect* them. Instead of having to say "Please wait for 3 Sunders before you attack" maybe people will say "That tank has Vigilance -- no way you'll pull off him."

We're not done with the trees yet. We still welcome your feedback on these concepts and abilities, but all this rerolling talk is quite premature... and almost always is. ;)
---------------------------------

I must admit i like where this is going. Let's hope that we won't be disappointed once again.

Schleppy
09-04-2008, 12:36 AM
Nothing has replaced Shield Slam. That's a fairly important detail when we're talking about our 31-point talent.

Semantics, our replacement talent for shield slam's previous position in the tree, not our replacement for shield slam in our rotation.

Ciderhelm
09-04-2008, 12:51 AM
Semantics, our replacement talent for shield slam's previous position in the tree, not our replacement for shield slam in our rotation.
It is semantics. That's the problem.

I really don't like people suggesting Vigilance has replaced Shield Slam. It suggests we've been nerfed. Even when Vigilance was awful and nobody took it, Protection still gets a net gain since it's two talent points not spent. ;)

Galushi
09-04-2008, 01:19 AM
yeah if anything pretend that the 31pt is still shield slam and some crazy weird threat transfer buff called Vigilance was added as baseline. I dont see how this talent can be anything but an improvement to current gameplay.

Galushi
09-04-2008, 01:21 AM
It also seems like a really nice OT skill. Putting it on the MT would be bad cuz you dont wanna lower the threat cap to everyone just to buff yours. But you could put it on the hunter thats already doing way more TPS then you can in a ragestarved enviroment and push your tps by a ton.

rustyboy
09-04-2008, 02:53 AM
In the end all I want is to be able to spec in various ways to maximise my potential in what ever I feel is enjoyable at the time. Be it being able to tank 5 mans and then go into bg's and not feel useless because everyone is ignoring me or tank a hard core boss in a 25 man and then go and do some dailys etc. If they make protection better for PvP then I think that will be a welcome change by most warriors, instead of the old PvP = Arms, PvE DPS = PvE and Full Prot = Tank while sucking at pretty much everything else we do one a daily basis.

Aughban
09-04-2008, 03:05 AM
It also seems like a really nice OT skill. Putting it on the MT would be bad cuz you dont wanna lower the threat cap to everyone just to buff yours. But you could put it on the hunter thats already doing way more TPS then you can in a ragestarved enviroment and push your tps by a ton.

Yeah its great as an OT, if im OTing something im not gonna complain about 10% of someone elses threat.

Taelas
09-04-2008, 03:27 AM
I really don't like people suggesting Vigilance has replaced Shield Slam. It suggests we've been nerfed. Even when Vigilance was awful and nobody took it, Protection still gets a net gain since it's two talent points not spent. ;)
Two talent points needed elsewhere, mind you.

I'm up in arms about where to get my last two points for Concussion Blow and Vigilance. >_< I was pretty settled on that 11/5/55 build. (Which is funny... my Prot paladin build is 5/55/11...)

Ciderhelm
09-04-2008, 03:30 AM
Two talent points needed elsewhere, mind you.

I'm up in arms about where to get my last two points for Concussion Blow and Vigilance. >_< I was pretty settled on that 11/5/55 build. (Which is funny... my Prot paladin build is 5/55/11...)
You can't be too far up in Arms. :D

No, really, they still haven't finished streamlining. I think they're going to gut out a good chunk of talent points soon. They've been saying as much publicly. Let's see!

Galushi
09-04-2008, 03:33 AM
I love that part about "thunderclap and concussion blow damage will blow your mind". Huge tanking crits incoming!

And when they say replacing +threat on abilities with +dmg, does that mean im not gonna have to deal with retardedly high threat when im dpsing in zerker stance? Woots.

tobarstep
09-04-2008, 03:35 AM
Two talent points needed elsewhere, mind you.

I'm up in arms about where to get my last two points for Concussion Blow and Vigilance. >_< I was pretty settled on that 11/5/55 build. (Which is funny... my Prot paladin build is 5/55/11...)

Going by just tooltips, I'd say Concussion Blow is now deprecated by Shockwave in much the same way Sunder was by Devastate. I wouldn't be surprised to see them having some type of shared cooldown before it's all over.

Taelas
09-04-2008, 03:36 AM
You can't be too far up in Arms. :D

No, really, they still haven't finished streamlining. I think they're going to gut out a good chunk of talent points soon. They've been saying as much publicly. Let's see!

Aww, you noticed my little word play! :D

Yeah, I know. Hopefully they'll clean it up nicely. Even just a small amount of talent points made available would be awesome.

Taelas
09-04-2008, 03:37 AM
Going by just tooltips, I'd say Concussion Blow is now deprecated by Shockwave in much the same way Sunder was by Devastate. I wouldn't be surprised to see them having some type of shared cooldown before it's all over.

Even if it is, I still need to take Concussion Blow to get Vigilance.

tobarstep
09-04-2008, 03:40 AM
Even if it is, I still need to take Concussion Blow to get Vigilance.

Doh! It's been so long since I've looked at the tree. I thought those were unlinked. They really should be. They have nothing to do with each other.

Taelas
09-04-2008, 03:41 AM
Well, Conc Blow didn't have much to do with Shield Slam either. :)

Regardless, a talented ability should not make a second talented ability obsolete -- I want both Shockwave and Conc Blow if I can fit 'em in.

Galushi
09-04-2008, 03:43 AM
as long as they have seperate cooldowns they will be useful for chain stunning mobs.

Kazeyonoma
09-04-2008, 09:37 AM
keep in mind conc blow is gonna have AP based damage and high threat attached to it, so it'll be worth it to have just as a threat move depending on how big of a threat move it proves to be.

Aughban
09-04-2008, 09:43 AM
keep in mind conc blow is gonna have AP based damage and high threat attached to it, so it'll be worth it to have just as a threat move depending on how big of a threat move it proves to be.

well from looking at the new talents and some of the gear i don't think anyone is going to be disappointed with the threat output of warriors.