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Bonerot
08-25-2008, 10:41 AM
Has anyone seen or heard any comment from blizzard if they intend the new WotLK 10 man raids to be run with 2 or 3 healers?

The guild I was in started with 3 healers in both kara and ZA and eventually dropped the number as the healers got geared up but maybe it would have been possible to just learn with 2 from the beginning assuming more experienced raiders.

Derrick
08-25-2008, 12:38 PM
1 tank and 2 healers is the intention, but it obviously will work with 3 and may be advantageous in places.

Lavache
08-25-2008, 01:09 PM
so they are adding a tank class and lessening the number of required tanks? does that not seem ass backwards?

phaze
08-25-2008, 01:28 PM
so they are adding a tank class and lessening the number of required tanks? does that not seem ass backwards?

Problem: tank shortage (demand > supply)
Fix 1: require fewer tanks (less demand)
Fix 2: add more tanks (more supply)

Nothing wrong with combining both approaches! ;)

That said, I still suspect there'll be enough encounters that need 2 tanks, similar to the MT/OT setup that works well in ZA.

Ceravantes
08-25-2008, 02:40 PM
There is not a tank shortage in raid settings...there never has been. The tank shortage has always been for puggable content, adding more tnaks and reducing the number of raid tanks required will cause some serious problems.

Me Smash U
08-26-2008, 05:59 AM
so they are adding a tank class and lessening the number of required tanks? does that not seem ass backwards?

Speculation:
Perhaps to throw another wrench in, within a single instance they may expect you to rotate different tanks in that are suited for each encounter. I think that the one tank, two healer recommendation is just that: a recommendation.

veneretio
08-26-2008, 06:43 AM
Speculation:
Perhaps to throw another wrench in, within a single instance they may expect you to rotate different tanks in that are suited for each encounter. I think that the one tank, two healer recommendation is just that: a recommendation.
One of Blizzard's many agendas is to not be wasting your time. Switching people wastes your time so while I would expect each class having some encounters they are particularly advantageous for, I wouldn't expect it to be such a huge advantage that you'd want to swap tanks mid-raid.

Also keep in mind, a number of guilds learned and have always done Karazhan with 2 healers.

Lavache
08-26-2008, 12:31 PM
There is not a tank shortage in raid settings...there never has been. The tank shortage has always been for puggable content, adding more tnaks and reducing the number of raid tanks required will cause some serious problems.

this is really where i was going with this, i just didnt realize it at the time ;)

we have +/- 5 raid tanks now for 25 man stuff - 3 very regular and 2 make maybe 50% due to work / family. now if a raid only needs 2 tanks, we are up a creek without a paddle for the other 3 tanks - and this doesnt even consider someone in guild who decides they want to play a death knight.

jlafleur
08-26-2008, 01:06 PM
10-man raids and 10 classes. Hmmm....

protonly
09-03-2008, 01:11 PM
It'll prolly work out how kara/za were early on for *most* guilds: 2 full protection/tank spec tanks and3 full healy spec healers. Then as you gear up you you generally drop a healer first and then much later on you drop a tank.

This does seem to be a really screwed up way of solving the tank shortage. If anything, having fewer raid spots will result in fewer tanks. But I think the odds are for *most* guilds that a single tank just won't cut it in a 10 man...or you're OT will have to spec deep enough into prot for threat generation or mitigation to really gimp their dps that it makes more sense to have them just go full prot.

At least that is what I think, not having seen the beta much.

Andenthal
09-03-2008, 05:07 PM
so they are adding a tank class and lessening the number of required tanks? does that not seem ass backwards?

They are actually fixing something that has been broken since the very first Molten Core raid in 04-05. The number of healers required in 25 man instances is disproportionate to the number needing in 5 and 10 man instances.

Assume the natural progression of instance gearing (in TBC).

5 man instance:
1 Tank
1 Healer
3 DPS/CC

Every 5 man instance in the game is doable this way. Some may argue that it's easier to bring an off-healer, or an off-tank to various instances. They are correct. But easier, and required are two different things. One would assume that you would double that for a 10 man instance, and multiply that by 5 for a 25 man instance. Doing so would result in the following.

10 man instance:
2 tanks
2 Healers
6 DPS/CC

It's easy enough to do a 10 man instance with this configuration. Although most guilds/raids replace 1 DPS with 1 Healer when first learning the instance.

25 man instance:
5 tanks
5 healers
15 DPS/CC

This configuration is totally silly. How many boss fights require 5 tanks (as in Prot or Feral spec). How many 25 man bosses could you kill with only 5 healers (while not completely overgearing the crap out of it).

Instead the average 25 man is probably something like this:
3 tanks
8 healers
14 DPS/CC

Which obviously becomes a huge issue. After doing all the 5 mans, where are all of these healers supposed to come from? Or the inverse - if the 25 man raid were to break up into 5 - 5 man groups, there is a shortage of tanks, and an abundance of healers.

I like the way they intended to go with some of the 25 man fights I have seen (Void Reaver namely) that require much of the raid to avoid damage - either partially or totally. For the VR fight, I think it's possible for ranged DPS to completely avoid taking damage that fight.
I dislike the massive amounts of healing required for some fights - and/or the strats put up thusfar. I have yet to go into T6, so I'm just going off of others' responces.

I would much rather see fights designed to have players avoid damage, rather than design them so you need 45% of your raid healing to overcome it.

orcstar
09-04-2008, 04:47 AM
I'm interested in how the possibility to multiple specs will work out for these kind of raids.

Maybe switching from tanking to healing or dps midraid is possible?

Muggs
09-04-2008, 07:18 AM
I'm looking at using 1.5 tanks and 2.5 healers in my 10 man team. And the 0.5 would be a feral druid or warrior with tanking equipment to off-tank for me if needed. Healing wise, a prot paladin or ret paladin with a healing set could be a vital asset to a raid team if there is a little more healing power required during early progression.

Jericho
09-08-2008, 11:30 AM
Ten man raiding has always been considerably more limited in scope than the 20, 25, and 40 man counterparts. The fact that blizzard is making tanks more viable as a source of damage and making all specs of warrior and DK viable as an off tank for 10 man raid content is what we need to think about.

Five man non heroic dungeons are going to be tanked by warriors, dk's and paladins. Add in ferals and you are looking at the vast majority of things being tanked by dps classes in non raid settings. Move forward to the ten man raids and we will see something very similar. We will see an "offspec" off tank be viable for a great number of encounters.

What we all have to understand that unlike TBC where we were supposed to use Kara as a stepping stone into 25 man content, in Wrath we are not. Ten man content is intended to be an alternative progression route than 25 man content. We do not need to argue about raid makeups and progression from 5>10>25 when Blizzard's intention is not to have this as the progession route. Yes, most 25 man guild's will be running them in tandem, but we aren't pigeonholed into having to do this. Guild's should be pushing either or and if the 25 man guilds are going to run alternate groups on off nights then so be it.

Either way, most 10 man group make ups should and probably will be using 1 tank specced warrior or paladin and then 1 or even 2 dps specced offtanks. With the intention of having ferals doing "real" damage in cat form and DK's current damage output we are looking at a realm of possibility to have all 4 classes in a raid without harm to the overall experience and that is the stated intention of Blizzard.

The worst thing about TBC raiding for a tank has been the same thing it was back in PreBC. There are encounters that require 2+ tanks, then there are encounters that require only 1. The vast majority of progression guilds "used" their offtanks to get to the boss because the trash required it, and then swapped them out for another pure dps class. This is something the new itemization and threat mechanics should change...hopefully.

Leytur
10-25-2008, 04:12 AM
Could ONLY people in beta raiding in beta respond please? We don't need people who aren't in beta adding information that only clogs up the thread.

So people in beta who have raided naxx10--only 1 tank? Interesting if true.

Ukk
10-25-2008, 05:23 AM
Sorry Leytur, had to respond to the argument that lessening the number of raid tanks will address the tank shortage.

If only 1 tank is needed, then you only have one tank gearing up in epic tank gear. So now you have 1 tank available per 10 players for heroics, etc., instead of 2 tanks. This worsens the tank shortage for anything above regular level 80 instances.

Naaven
10-25-2008, 07:14 AM
The vast majority of progression guilds "used" their offtanks to get to the boss because the trash required it, and then swapped them out for another pure dps class. This is something the new itemization and threat mechanics should change...hopefully.
Probably worth reminding about the dual-specs here too.

Krashtork
10-25-2008, 01:56 PM
If naxx is anything like I remember it to be, having only 1 tank will be a stretch. Go go feral druid OT!