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Ciderhelm
08-24-2008, 04:46 AM
I'm going to cover several of the WoW-related discussions I've had this last week, since they seemed interesting enough. There are a lot of subjects, so be sure to scroll down to check them out!

Wrath Impressions
The difference between Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King is significantly greater than the difference between original WoW and Burning Crusade was. Where Burning Crusade expanded on scripting and interesting quest lines, Wrath of the Lich King is rewriting the book on what the game can be.

That's the simplest way I can describe my impressions as I've gotten involved in the Beta process. I'm not talking about tanking in particular -- I'll get to that shortly -- but rather the entire game. The quests are a masterwork of well-implemented concepts. Northrend is visually stunning and smooth across the world. There's something magical in the air that sets this game apart from both Burning Crusade and other MMO's I've been involved with.


Threat Is Not A Raid Responsibility
I read this over the last week, and I was almost tempted to plaster it onto the TankSpot banner image or into our header. Over the last three years, I consistently hear Threat being described as a raid responsibility, and it grates on me every time I hear it. Many tanks are too focused on avoidance and mitigation at the expense of Threat in encounters where it really doesn't make sense.

Now, let me put in a few caveats. If a DPSer significantly outgears a tank, or is in a situation with unusual disparity such as running low-damage instances with high damage reduction gear, then there are naturally going to be issues. I'm also not suggesting that DPSers should be pushing their Threat as hard as possible at all times, especially on encounters with tank-directed CC. Obviously a DPS class should be careful not to pull.

What I'm more concerned about is tanks who are still averaging 400-500 TPS and feel that's acceptable. It's not. The most common excuse I hear is, "our DPS has Omen and knows when not to pull, so we're fine." This is simply not an acceptable attitude for a tank. It is your responsibility to allow the DPS to open up. It is your responsibility to understand gearing options to build Threat (Expertise/Hit/SBV) and when it's safe and beneficial to use them.

If you don't learn how to handle your Threat effectively, you'll be impotent when it comes to encounters with relatively hard enrage timers or other mechanics that require they die quickly. More importantly, you won't be playing to your potential; with tanking, satisfaction only occurs if you're playing excellently.

That's not to say that DPS have an excuse to be ignorant or blind to real tanking issues you'll have. Having mobs ranged down and attacked before they've even reached the tank is obviously not going to be acceptable.

Anyway, I'd suggest you jump into a bit of reading if this section applies to you:
Xav's Generating Threat Guide (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/35313-generating-threat.html)
Single & Multi Target Threat (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/warrior-reference/37005-single-multi-target-threat.html)


Looking Back, Looking Forward
I was most in love with my Warrior when Shield Slam was in it's glory days. I expect we'll see those days again. That said, I wanted to share an image that sums up the first year of Burning Crusade:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/../photoplog/images/1/1_shieldslam.jpg

I think I'm safe to post it since it's a picture from my own UI, but I'd love to know who originally authored it!


Wrath Warrior Development
I'm going to jump specifically into Warriors as far as the development process is going in Wrath. I'll let others cover the other tanking classes. :)

First, let me cover some of the basics of the current Beta for Protection Warriors. Sword and Board is highly underrated -- it is amazingly fun and the 10% proc rate means it comes up regularly. Shockwave is also much better than I expected, particularly due to it's low rage cost. These two abilities I hope remain in their current form.

Beta does have several issues at the moment. There are mechanical issues, such as Devastate currently only applying one Sunder debuff. There are tree issues -- Protection is currently not streamlined to allow tanks to pick up good tanking talents in a reasonable way. However, we know that Protection is shortly going to see substantial and substantive changes, so I've been ignoring the bloat.


I appreciate people raising their concerns, both here and on the official forums. While Burning Crusade release was generally good, we waited for a very long time for much-needed improvements with rage, itemization, and class balance. Endless Rage is an ability that should have never made it to live servers. My own promotion of Devastate on the Beta and official forums only prolonged the time a fundamentally awkward ability stayed untouched on live. If you have an issue with abilities, voice your opinion!

However, let me be clear: Protection could be amazing. Waiting on the next Protection build in Beta is like waiting on Christmas. I believe we're going to get buffs, and I believe they're going to redefine our class in a way that hasn't been seen since Shield Slam was introduced. The changes we see will likely be related to our core design (bear in mind how many of our talents are starting to have synergy with Shield Slam) and our ability to handle much more than just tanking.


Speaking of Shield Slam Synergy (Remember That Awful Trinket?)
I tend to focus on strange trinket combinations to pull off some neat tricks. That's the basis of our Shield Slam thread (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/miscellaneous-pre-burning-crusade/438-current-shield-slam-records.html), but also what allows for things like solo'ing old raid bosses.

For Black Temple raiders who may be tempted to level Protection after the upcoming changes, try this on for size: Ashtongue Talisman of Valor and Sword and Board are increasing the up-time of the buff and increasing the average healing I'm getting across the board. It's an attractive trinket, especially now that both Shield Wall and Recklessness (now unlinked) can be used regularly. Shield Wall allows more efficiency when grinding, Recklessness allows more burst when the buff is up.

Don't take this to mean Protection is the best leveling build. It is not, and before any recommendation is made that even remotely suggests Protection for leveling solo, we'll have to see the new changes. However, if you're in the position I am, having very little DPS gear, but having a whole lot of SBV/Crit gear, it is proving once again to be the most fun and interesting way to level.


What's cuter than a Gnomish Deathknight?
Keep your eyes out for Deathwait's son at Blizzcon!

http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/1235/large/1_TSBack-1.JPG

Sales on this particular hat have been picking up in advance of Blizzcon. If you're heading that way, be sure to purchase the official baseball cap (http://199952.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/Article/Index/article/Legendary-TS-on-Back-3356381) to identify fellow tanks!


Wrath Podcasts
Lore and I have been on vent the last week discussing podcast ideas and our impressions of Wrath of the Lich King. It has been our intention to start these up again with all of the new Beta information, and it appears we're on track to do so.

Our original plan was to create a comprehensive overview of tanking and the new instances after running them together... then we realized that that we play different factions. He has since begun leveling a Deathknight on Alliance, and is nearly ready for Northrend. Expect information soon!


Recruit-A-Friend
We recently had a few discussions on TankSpot about people's impressions on Recruit-A-Friend. I'll take this opportunity to give my own -- this is awesome!

For those who weren't aware, many of the TankSpot regulars formed up a guild in Age of Conan where we've been enjoying raiding in our spare time. The flip side of this is that we've brought several friends back from that game through this recruitment system.

With Wrath coming up, it's good to be able to bring people in and help them get up to par as we come towards this expansion. The system specifically makes it easy to bring people who may have more time than you -- for instance, if you're raiding nightly and can't group with them -- since it allows granting levels as well. This is doubly exciting for those of us who're seeing how this next expansion is shaping up.


TankSpot Moderation
The site has been coming along well. We've been expecting increased traffic and increased discussion as we near Wrath, and we're certainly getting it. The downside is that this means increased moderation and work on our ends. I'm on a relatively short fuse when it comes to new member posts, because we're getting a lot of people who don't understand the community we've built here.

I don't want to read why X class should not be allowed to tank as well as Y. I don't want to read about why X class does or does not require skill. I don't want to read why X guild or player is stupid if they don't do things a certain way. That belongs on the official forums. If you bring it here, it will be moderated and, if you don't learn it quick enough, you'll be banned. You may think these things only affect you, but no one likes going to a forum and having their first impression of the class that they're leveling be that they're not appreciated or as capable as others.

Debates -- even viciously argumentative ones! -- are encouraged so long as they're helpful and based in reality. :)


Gnohawk

http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/1/large/1_WoWScrnShot_082308_214714.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/1/1_WoWScrnShot_082308_214714.jpg)

veneretio
08-24-2008, 02:01 PM
I think the underwhelming-ness in regards to Sword and Board stems from everyone looking at it in terms of rage efficiency. After all, 17ish rage/minute is hardly anything to go home and tell mom about for a 5 point talent. What is often overlooked is the additional damage/threat that's gained by being able to Shield Slam instead of Devastate or Revenge. The combination of the two makes for a pretty cool talent and I'm not surprised that it's fun after all although I'll have to experience it for myself whether that god awful trinket is actually useful or not.

Ciderhelm
08-24-2008, 02:17 PM
I think the underwhelming-ness in regards to Sword and Board stems from everyone looking at it in terms of rage efficiency. After all, 17ish rage/minute is hardly anything to go home and tell mom about for a 5 point talent. What is often overlooked is the additional damage/threat that's gained by being able to Shield Slam instead of Devastate or Revenge. The combination of the two makes for a pretty cool talent and I'm not surprised that it's fun after all although I'll have to experience it for myself whether that god awful trinket is actually useful or not.

Where on earth are you coming up with 17 rage a minute? You realize it procs off Devastate as well?

Horacio
08-24-2008, 02:39 PM
Fantastic post. I'll dig into it when I get a chance but great stuff. You should really get your own website, dude.

Horacio
08-24-2008, 02:48 PM
Sword and Board certainly makes items like the Autoblocker interesting...I mean it currently has a limited number of SS you can get off during its duration but with a few S&B procs.....

I love Shield Slams and am guilty of stacking BV from time to time away from the ideal gear set just to bigger slams in. That's my favorite 'screen shot' and 300 is just an awesome movie.....every time we throw it in the DvD machine and I don't want to log in any alts for a week.

veneretio
08-24-2008, 04:36 PM
Where on earth are you coming up with 17 rage a minute? You realize it procs off Devastate as well?
I'd read it somewhere. Chalk that up to not thinking enough before posting.

You're correct it's way off. The standard rotation now of rev > ss > dev > dev would lead to 30 opportunities per minute averaging out to 3 ppm. Changing that rotation to ss > dev x3 leads to 40 opportunities making for 4 ppm. So even in the least ideal of situations, we can expect 2 proc per minute or 34 rage saved.

Anyway my hasty, incorrect math aside, I agree it seems like a really fun talent. I assume that your free Shield Slam can proc another free Shield Slam?

TomHuxley
08-24-2008, 04:48 PM
After reading your excellent sumary of WotLK game play I have an important question: Is it possible to get that screen cap composite in a higher resolution?

I want to use it as wallpaper on my desktop...

Kromzul
08-24-2008, 09:18 PM
Haven't we agreed by now that Sword and Board is an awful talent that doesn't do a damn thing about any of the major problems with the Protection warrior spec, given that it's an incredibly low proc rate on an effect that is, itself, mediocre?

There needs to be major changes in the way warrior tanks gain rage if the Protection warrior isn't going to be the least enjoyable spec in the entire game.

Ciderhelm
08-24-2008, 09:36 PM
Haven't we agreed by now that Sword and Board is an awful talent that doesn't do a damn thing about any of the major problems with the Protection warrior spec, given that it's an incredibly low proc rate on an effect that is, itself, mediocre?
Sword and Board is more rage effective than Anger Management and Improved Bloodrage combined. It will enable more Threat than 5 points in Cruelty. It is more likely to help in low-rage situations than Justified Killing. It's also a lot of fun.

So, while I'm not sure what agreement you're talking about, anyone saying this flatly does not understand what they're talking about. There are plenty of severe shortcomings in Protection atm, but Sword and Board does not fall into that category.

Kromzul
08-24-2008, 10:21 PM
Sword and Board is more rage effective than Anger Management and Improved Bloodrage combined. It will enable more Threat than 5 points in Cruelty. It is more likely to help in low-rage situations than Justified Killing. It's also a lot of fun.

Anger Management and Improved Bloodrage are also horrible talents that qualify as filler, at best. Your claim that it causes more threat than 5 points in Cruelty is dubious (particularly given that these talents multiply with one another...).

Let's suppose a theoretically best-case scenario of four operations that can trigger SnB. I've got a 10% chance that a Shield Slam procs SnB, thus basically giving me a 4.5 second reduction in the cooldown of Shield Slam. I've got a 10% chance that the Devastate after it procs SnB, for a 3.0 second reduction in the cooldown, and another 10% chance for the next Devastate to give me a 1.5 second reduction. Overall, that's 0.1*4.5 + 0.1*3.0 + 0.1*1.5 = 0.9 -> an average of 0.9 seconds reduction in the cooldown of Shield Slam. Remarkably similar to Improved Mortal Strike (which is the first talent anyone drops), minus the damage bonus. And relying on a perfect cycle where the player is able to capitalize on every opportunity to use the ability (which, given the colossal amount of button mashing a Prot warrior already engages in, probably isn't realistic).

The rage savings is another factor, but I really don't consider yet-another-RNG solution to rage problems to be an ideal solution to anything. And if they this doesn't come with a host of other rage-efficiency or generation mechanics, then I'll consider it another misguided Endless Rage-like kludge to make up for the fact that rage often flows in at a trickle.

The simple fact of the matter is that they're going to have to drastically increase the proc rate and/or boost the actual effect of the proc to make this anything but *even more expendable* than the pre-Wrath Improved Mortal Strike.


So, while I'm not sure what agreement you're talking about, anyone saying this flatly does not understand what they're talking about. There are plenty of severe shortcomings in Protection atm, but Sword and Board does not fall into that category.

Well, I disagree. And I think I do have some minor clue what I'm talking about. I just don't believe that being able to very occasionally press a button on a skill that would have been on cooldown is enough to warrant praise to the talent designers.

It sure as hell can't compete with the 45-point talents in Arms or Fury.

Ciderhelm
08-24-2008, 10:39 PM
Anger Management and Improved Bloodrage are also horrible talents that qualify as filler, at best. Your claim that it causes more threat than 5 points in Cruelty is dubious (particularly given that these talents multiply with one another...).

Let's suppose a theoretically best-case scenario of four operations that can trigger SnB. I've got a 10% chance that a Shield Slam procs SnB, thus basically giving me a 4.5 second reduction in the cooldown of Shield Slam. I've got a 10% chance that the Devastate after it procs SnB, for a 3.0 second reduction in the cooldown, and another 10% chance for the next Devastate to give me a 1.5 second reduction. Overall, that's 0.1*4.5 + 0.1*3.0 + 0.1*1.5 = 0.9 -> an average of 0.9 seconds reduction in the cooldown of Shield Slam. Remarkably similar to Improved Mortal Strike (which is the first talent anyone drops), minus the damage bonus. And relying on a perfect cycle where the player is able to capitalize on every opportunity to use the ability (which, given the colossal amount of button mashing a Prot warrior already engages in, probably isn't realistic).

The rage savings is another factor, but I really don't consider yet-another-RNG solution to rage problems to be an ideal solution to anything.

You're being disingenuous by following up math with that statement. In other words, you realize you'll come to the same conclusion I made if you count both the cooldown reduction and the rage reduction, so you dismiss the rage reduction altogether, saying 'it's not ideal.' Yet rage seems to be your primary complaint in your previous post.

Let's make this clear:

1. On 25-30 attacks per minute, there is a 10% chance that Shield Slam's cooldown will be removed, allowing a Shield Slam earlier than it would have occurred otherwise. Shield Slam is still the best and highest Threat ability available to Warriors, and the damage buffs provided to it in Wrath make this even more true than it currently is.

2. On 25-40 attacks per minute, there is a 10% chance that your next Shield Slam will take zero rage (a 17 rage reduction from the cost of a Shield Slam or a 9 rage reduction from the cost of a Devastate on that same cooldown, depending on whether you're looking at effectiveness or efficiency).

What does this mean? In high rage situations when tanking, this allows an extra Heroic Strike on that cooldown, on top of the extra Threat that may be provided. In low rage situations -- and I can say this for fact based on Beta testing -- it realistically means a rotation where I have been struggling for rage is suddenly very stable, because I got a buffer of one cooldown.


If you're expecting Sword and Board to solve all issues in Protection, you're expecting too much from one talent. If you're suggesting that it's not a good 5-point talent, you're just wrong.

AnvilDK
08-25-2008, 01:10 AM
I still do not like Sword and Board talent. Alone because of the needed attention from my part.

As a tank you need to be dependable. You need to output TPS dependable. Sword and Board talent runs on devastate and shield slam but does not include revenge.

That means to optimize for Sword and Board you either take out revenge or you extend the time it takes to get it to proc.

The difference is by optimising you remove revenge for a higher proc chance. This makes your rotation more expensive. Requiring more rage.

Miss dodge and parry will extend the time it takes to get a proc.
If I take it out of the equation on your 10th hit you proc sword and board. Thats 1,5 minuts per proc.
If it procs off devastate your limited by the GCD. If it procs off shield slam the GCD gets refreshed as well(hope you can confirm this).
With lag it will take some time to actively hit the button unless you macro it. Once you have used your "free shield slam" your back to the rotation with 3 devastate before your next shield slam. Again furthering the idear of just macro devastate and shield slam making us a 1 button wonder.

I would much rather have the new nifty enrage mechanisme built into Sword and board. 15% more damage in 12 seconds yes sir gimme more of that.

I would rather have my attention on the playing field then looking for that little shield slam icon to light up out of order. That might be fun for a dps that spends the majority of his time kissing a bosses behind. I for one feel I got pleanty of reactive abilities to play with in the form of my ohshit buttons infront of the boss. Or for that matter keeping my raid fellows safe from harm.

Fun factor?? I get fun from achiving great things. Be it to drag a pug through a instance by sheer force of will or save the day in a raid encounter going horrible wrong. Hitting a button and seeing big numbers is fun but as long as it isnt dependable I can not rely on it for anything but random tps boost.
In pvp another shield slam out of order might improve my damage but you will not be doing your cycle reliable on anything since pvp is so mobile. This talent is so limited in its application that I would rather spend points elsewhere. I am waiting with glee for the new Protection setup. I am almost 100% sure sword and board will get cheaper talentwise and move down and replaced with some kind of enrage mechanisme Like we see in both Arms and Fury. It looks like its our new "Warrior" flavor.

So I say pop enrage

Anvil

Aldragoriad
08-25-2008, 01:11 AM
My entire problem with SnB is the fact that is symptomatic of the tree bloat in prot right now. I hate the fact that its a 5 point talent, when it realistically is no better than shield mastery. I'd love it as a 1 point talent, and would settle for a 3 pointer, but 5 is just way too much, especially considering the fact that its hard enough to find room for everything in the revamped tree as it is.

Ciderhelm
08-25-2008, 01:47 AM
I still do not like Sword and Board talent. Alone because of the needed attention from my part.
I can see this being an issue with original Devastate since it required you have both Sunder and Devastate on your hotbar, which could be frustrating.

Sword and Board, however, is not annoying in the same way. It doesn't require you learn new keybinds, it just requires you pay attention to either your buffs or your cooldowns. Watching buffs, cooldowns and timers is all that raiding has been in the last three years. It has had nothing to do with watching the playfield -- that's reserved for 5-man content. So, being rewarded for paying attention to what tanks already should be paying attention to isn't exactly a bad thing.


That means to optimize for Sword and Board you either take out revenge or you extend the time it takes to get it to proc.

The difference is by optimising you remove revenge for a higher proc chance. This makes your rotation more expensive. Requiring more rage.

Miss dodge and parry will extend the time it takes to get a proc.
If I take it out of the equation on your 10th hit you proc sword and board. Thats 1,5 minuts per proc. I'm not entirely following you here. Unless I'm lost on conversion, are you really saying that you think Sword and Board will only proc every minute and a half?... If so, that is completely incorrect.

With Revenge included, Sword and Board will proc 2-3 times per minute. Each of those time will provide both the free rage on that cooldown and will shorten the cooldown. Yes, Hit and Expertise will make that more reliable, but that's not exactly a strong argument since everything else works that way as well.


Fun factor?? I get fun from achiving great things. Be it to drag a pug through a instance by sheer force of will or save the day in a raid encounter going horrible wrong.
I agree that the satisfaction from raiding is achieving things with friends and saving a raid from a wipe. However, that's because that's literally the only thing people could find enjoyable, given that raiding is tedious and relatively worthless as far as requiring attention or player skill. You will learn more tanking skill, reaction, and effectiveness in 5-Mans and Heroics than you will in any raid zone.

Anything -- anything -- which requires more than 2344 2344 2344 2344 during a raid is a positive change.


My entire problem with SnB is the fact that is symptomatic of the tree bloat in prot right now. I hate the fact that its a 5 point talent, when it realistically is no better than shield mastery. I'd love it as a 1 point talent, and would settle for a 3 pointer, but 5 is just way too much, especially considering the fact that its hard enough to find room for everything in the revamped tree as it is.
I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it being a 3-point talent, nor would I be opposed to it being in another position. However, the statement was that it's underrated and I've been having fun with it.

The position and the talent point requirement are far more an issue of the general issues and bloat in Protection -- as you said -- than an issue with the talent. Everyone is aware Protection is coming up desperately short in design at the moment. The Sword and Board talent itself is good regardless.


To make this clear again -- Sword and Board is doing two things. It's giving quicker Shield Slams and it's conserving rage on our highest-rage ability. While both look small separately, they are well worth the points together.

Some of you have latched onto this talent as though it's supposed to be the savior of all Protection woes, and anything short of that means it needs to be scrapped. I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. It's not a 31, 41, or 51 point talent, it's a filler talent I wrote a sentence about because it's been fun. ;)

Aldragoriad
08-25-2008, 01:53 AM
Shield Mastery does 2 things too, lowers the damage you're taking whenever you block an attack, and ups the damage on your shield slams, by about the % of extra shield slams you get from SnB. Now you can arguably say that the rage savings are better than the damage reduction of Shield Mastery, but in the end, unless you're rage starved they're both the minor part of the equation. I see no reason to have to use 5 talent points for the same benefit I get from 3, earlier in the tree.

AnvilDK
08-25-2008, 02:00 AM
With Revenge included, Sword and Board will proc 2-3 times per minute. Each of those time will provide both the free rage on that cooldown and will shorten the cooldown. Yes, Hit and Expertise will make that more reliable, but that's not exactly a strong argument since everything else works that way as well.


2-3 times per minut sounds huge. I can understand your excitment.

I will wait and see how it pans out. I trust your insight.

you got 6 rotations in a minut. That is more like 33-50% proc rate. Certanly not just 10%.

Anvil

Ciderhelm
08-25-2008, 02:02 AM
Shield Mastery does 2 things too, lowers the damage you're taking whenever you block an attack, and ups the damage on your shield slams, by about the % of extra shield slams you get from SnB. Now you can arguably say that the rage savings are better than the damage reduction of Shield Mastery, but in the end, unless you're rage starved they're both the minor part of the equation. I see no reason to have to use 5 talent points for the same benefit I get from 3, earlier in the tree.

Rage efficiency =/= damage reduction.

Rage effectiveness =/= damage reduction.

The talents are absolutely and completely unable to be compared beyond Threat. In Threat they have a synergy, and no tank will ever make the decision between Shield Mastery and Sword and Board. The reason I cited Cruelty and Anger Management is because both are end talents that players would make a choice between.

I currently spend 4 points more than I need in Arms to pick up Anger Management. I consider it worth it in the majority of situations I'm in. Rage efficiency matters that much to me.

Aldragoriad
08-25-2008, 02:20 AM
I didn't say they were the same, in fact, I said that you probably got more use out of the rage reduction from SnB. In the larger scheme of things however, I don't feel that the rage savings are 2 points better than the damage reduction that comes out of shield mastery, especially given the fact that we're supposed to get better rage generation in WOTLK anyway. I see the two sets of talents by and large to be of equal use, so why am I having to invest 2 more talent points in SnB, in an already bloated tree. Personally, I'd like to have them dump useless Vigilance, and make SnB the 41 point single talent linked to Concussion Blow.

I'm curious as to how you get 4 points in arms for AM though, near as I can tell you're only forced to spend 3, 2 of which do have some side benefit attached to them in the form of lower rage heroic strikes, which you can argue the usefulness of, but there is some benefit to it. And with the latest patch release and Justified Killing, its probably a moot point anyway.

Ciderhelm
08-25-2008, 02:37 AM
Personally, I'd like to have them dump useless Vigilance, and make SnB the 41 point single talent linked to Concussion Blow.
As I said earlier, I certainly wouldn't have a problem if Sword and Board were changed in the talent tree. I just find it fun. Position or points doesn't particularly bother me.


I'm curious as to how you get 4 points in arms for AM though, near as I can tell you're only forced to spend 3, 2 of which do have some side benefit attached to them in the form of lower rage heroic strikes, which you can argue the usefulness of, but there is some benefit to it.
3, not 4. At any point I've been in raiding in TBC, either imp TC or imp HS has been good, but not both, so take your pick on which one I don't like any given day. :p

Rage efficiency is the only way to maximize Threat output. My particular build is not the best build out there for it -- getting three in Heroic Strike is unquestionably better than Anger Management in some content depending on gear.

Focused Rage is unquestionably the king of rage efficiency. 5 points in Sword and Board don't touch it, nor does Imp Sunder, Imp Heroic, Imp Bloodrage, or Anger Management. But all of these talents play off each other, and once you get down to using 2 and 9 rage attacks as the majority, saving 17 rage is suddenly a bigger deal. It can allow for one more attack or, more importantly, one more Heroic Strike.

As I suggested earlier, the value in Sword and Board (outside of raiding) is that a single proc provides a small buffer that can cascade through several rotations without me needing to worry about rage again. It procs often enough that this is a nice benefit.



And with the latest patch release and Justified Killing, its probably a moot point anyway.
I am operating under the assumption that Blizzard will not leave that in it's current location. If the comments on the Beta board are an indication, Rage from Avoidance is a given, and will probably be included without needing talents for it.

Taelas
08-25-2008, 03:08 AM
My main problem with Sword and Board is that it makes it impossible to hold a steady rotation (unless you specifically save the proc until Revenge, Devastate and Devastate have been performed, but that means losing procs).

It's not a big deal, it's just annoying.

Ciderhelm
08-25-2008, 03:18 AM
I assume that your free Shield Slam can proc another free Shield Slam?
I don't know! I've been paying more attention since you asked the question, and I haven't seen it happen yet, but I always seem to stop watching carefully right as I get a series of procs.

I'll have an answer soon if it's the case. I won't for a while if it's not. :)

Narshe
08-25-2008, 04:27 AM
Imagine a mage, trying to ambush you:
Spell reflect, shield slam then 2 chained free shield slams..... bye-bye clothie!

Kromzul
08-25-2008, 05:45 AM
Imagine a mage, trying to ambush you:
Spell reflect, shield slam then 2 chained free shield slams..... bye-bye clothie!

In theory, every Shield Slam you cast could activate SnB, so that you could chain Shield Slams forever the moment you get this talent, and never cast Devastate again (unless you want the Sunder debuff)!

In practice, however, chaining three Shield Slams together will happen very infrequently.

Because 10% is a very low proc rate.

Lore
08-25-2008, 06:44 AM
Too much talk about stupid Warrior stupids, not enough talk about how awesome my deathknight is.

HER NAME IS SPIDERHELM, COME ON.

Widdox
08-25-2008, 06:46 AM
Blizzard is really trying to add bloat to their trees. I think SnB is one of those attempts. They dislike that everyone takes all the best "tank/dps/heal" talents and everyone ends up with the same spec. Its been very interesting reading these last couple pages.

I'm not a warrior, but if I was I would have a hard time telling anyone that their choice between SnB and SM are wrong. They both seem like good talents, depending on playstyle.

Caulle
08-25-2008, 06:51 AM
Too much talk about stupid Warrior stupids, not enough talk about how awesome my deathknight is.

HER NAME IS SPIDERHELM, COME ON.

That's the best thing I ever heard.

Lore
08-25-2008, 07:15 AM
Regarding "Bloat": Having lots of good options is not talent bloat. It's a good thing. Imagine you're at a buffet, and your choices are the most delicious steak you've ever seen and the most delicious chicken you've ever seen (vegetarians, just pretend it's tofu or a salad or something ;) ). Do you complain to the restaurant that there's no way you could possibly eat all of that?

Now, if they told you you could have either of those, but you had to eat your placemat first, that would be talent bloat. There's still a couple examples of that in place (usually early in the tree where you're picking between several talents of dubious value just to get down the tree farther). All tanks have had sort of "automatic cookie cutter" builds for a while though, and I want to make the distinction between having to spend points on crap talents in order to get to the good stuff and simply being able to tailor your build to fit your needs.

Widdox
08-25-2008, 07:21 AM
I guess bloat is the wrong word, but I do think they are trying to make people make decisions like you said.

veneretio
08-25-2008, 07:29 AM
2-3 times per minut sounds huge. I can understand your excitment.

I will wait and see how it pans out. I trust your insight.

you got 6 rotations in a minut. That is more like 33-50% proc rate. Certanly not just 10%.

Anvil
You get 10 Rotations in a minute, not 6.

Rev > SS > Dev > Dev is 6 seconds.

That's 3 opportunities to proc SnB. Over the course of a minute, that'll be 30 opportunities which averages out to 3 SnB procs/minute. If you change the rotation to:

SS > Dev > Dev > Dev

That's 4 opportunities per rotation or 40 opportunities per minute leading to 4 SnB procs/minute.

10% is 10%.

knagh
08-25-2008, 07:31 AM
quick question on the timing of the SnB (although i think SwAB is a better acronym) proc.... do you find that the timing of the proc "notification" is a bit delayed so that you end up using it one ability late? e.g.

SS (triggers SnB proc) -> Devastate -> (notice the proc) SS

not a huge deal either way, but it does reduce the SS cooldown effect improvement factor.

suesse_llane
08-25-2008, 07:43 AM
That's 4 opportunities per rotation or 40 opportunities per minute leading to 4 SnB procs/minute.
I agree with your math, but for me, I'm probably doing ~3 thunder claps and 3 demos every minute, so that's a 15% decrease from the 40 opportunities. It still seems like a cool talent. Are people finding it lag-free enough to actually use shield slam on the next GCD after it procs?

Taelas
08-25-2008, 07:47 AM
Assuming it works like other procs, that really shouldn't be a concern.

phaze
08-25-2008, 07:53 AM
My main problem with Sword and Board is that it makes it impossible to hold a steady rotation (unless you specifically save the proc until Revenge, Devastate and Devastate have been performed, but that means losing procs).

It's not a big deal, it's just annoying.
Yeah, that's my only real complaint as well. If you want to trigger your SS's sooner, you'll have to keep an eye on your action bar to see if SS gets its cooldown reset. That's less focus on the actual fight, which I would rather be watching. Shield Block usage is being completely overhauled to move away from staring at the short cooldown / macroing it in, so replacing that behavior with a new version seems odd.

I like the rage savings from SnB. But I'd like to see the 'cooldown reset' replaced with something else of equal value (+x% damage or +y% crit chance on next SS, increase avoidance by z% for 5s, drop the base SS cooldown from 6s to 4.5s, etc.). But as Norrath said: not a big deal, just me being nitpicky. ;)

Mardran
08-25-2008, 08:13 AM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/../photoplog/images/1/1_shieldslam.jpg


Only one word is needed to describe this image: yes

Lore
08-25-2008, 08:33 AM
I agree with your math, but for me, I'm probably doing ~3 thunder claps and 3 demos every minute, so that's a 15% decrease from the 40 opportunities. It still seems like a cool talent. Are people finding it lag-free enough to actually use shield slam on the next GCD after it procs?

Note that, at least in a raid environment, any Death Knights/Protection Paladins/Feral Druids in the raid will be applying an attack speed reduction that's close or equal to the Thunderclap Effect as part of their normal DPS or threat rotations, so thunderclapping won't always be necessary.

Horacio
08-25-2008, 08:46 AM
Additionally, I think warlocks are having a curse modified (Weakness?) that will also apply the same sort of debuff. I think Imp TC will still be necassary for AoE threat but as an MT, it may not be all that useful for boss fights.

Daimon
08-25-2008, 09:16 AM
Only one word is needed to describe this image: yes

ROFL, woot, WTB spartan talent tree FTW

AnvilDK
08-25-2008, 09:25 AM
You get 10 Rotations in a minute, not 6.

Rev > SS > Dev > Dev is 6 seconds.

That's 3 opportunities to proc SnB. Over the course of a minute, that'll be 30 opportunities which averages out to 3 SnB procs/minute. If you change the rotation to:

SS > Dev > Dev > Dev

That's 4 opportunities per rotation or 40 opportunities per minute leading to 4 SnB procs/minute.

10% is 10%.

Do not know what I was smoking when I did the numbers but I feel cheated out of a high.

Your are very right and I was way off. I guess I was thinking rotation which is just plain wrong.

I am getting old.

Futtah
08-25-2008, 09:26 AM
All my concerns regarding SnB are also stemmed primarily from a rotation point of view. It annoys me that I might have to miss seconds on my "SnB proc" because i didn't notice it refresh my Shield Slam. I've actually been wondering how this would be fixable and the only solution i've come up with so far is having SnB proc a buff which allows your next Shield Slam ability to be a double attack. I can't make my mind up if that would be too powerful or a nerf.
But this way i wouldn't have to break my rotation cause i'd just know that next time Shield Slam was ready i'd have this awesome Windfury-like attack.

But all in all i have no idea how these things will work out and i'm trying to stay as optimistic as possible. I've been playing Blizzard games since Starcraft and they've never let me down - so i have some trust in the effort Blizzard is putting into the expansion.

My two cents

Lore
08-25-2008, 09:30 AM
I think requiring more focus of tanks is a good thing, as far as threat rotation goes. It puts a measure of skill between the guy who can immediately recognize things like SnB procs and the guy who plugged 2344 into his G15.

veneretio
08-25-2008, 09:37 AM
I agree with your math, but for me, I'm probably doing ~3 thunder claps and 3 demos every minute, so that's a 15% decrease from the 40 opportunities. It still seems like a cool talent. Are people finding it lag-free enough to actually use shield slam on the next GCD after it procs?
Agreed which is why on the first page of this thread, we agreed 2-3 was more realistic.

As to those concerned with us actually having to pay attention and that a certain delay or lack of awareness may hinder us... I say pish posh!

Vene's Very Cheatie SnB Macro

/cast Shield Slam
/cast Devastate

Use instead of standard Devastate button in your rotation. You'll still want Devastate by itself for when you're stacking Sunder debuffs initially or when you're noticing that the debuff may fall off, but regardless this little gem of simplicity should let us happily go back to our boring 2344 lives ;)

(making stuff useful sure does take all the fun/challenge out of it, eh)

edit: The above macro is totally incorrect and doesn't work.

Kazeyonoma
08-25-2008, 10:12 AM
wow vene... that... macro does it all O_o, I was thinking to myself while reading this thread how I can fix the "oh crap I forgot to ss after a proc" and immediately thought macro, then read your post and realized... that does it. LOL

suesse_llane
08-25-2008, 10:25 AM
Vene's Very Cheatie SnB Macro

/cast Shield Slam
/cast Devastate

Why would this macro work? Wouldn't it just fail if shield slam were not available? Or were you joking? Internet sarcasm is sometimes difficult to detect.

Kromzul
08-25-2008, 10:30 AM
As to those concerned with us actually having to pay attention and that a certain delay or lack of awareness may hinder us... I say pish posh!

Vene's Very Cheatie SnB Macro

/cast Shield Slam
/cast Devastate

Well, you know, that's actually a really good idea, and I hadn't thought about it!

The talent still needs tweaking, as do various other aspects of Protection warrior rage generation, but at least a macro like that guarantees *some* benefit out of the talent.

Nez
08-25-2008, 10:33 AM
I would imagine SCT will have some big popup thingy when shieldslam is ready for those worried about missing one hehe

relgatta
08-25-2008, 10:40 AM
Why would this macro work? Wouldn't it just fail if shield slam were not available? Or were you joking? Internet sarcasm is sometimes difficult to detect.

The shield slam will fail yes, but it will not prevent the devastate from working, and vice versa.

I use a similar macro to have one button to cover both throw and shoot regardless of the gear I am wearing. You always get an error message saying on or the other doesn't work, but the one of the two always fires. The same is true of this macro.

If you can shield slam you will, and the GCD will prevent you from devastating. If you can't shield slam, you will still devastate.

Mardran
08-25-2008, 10:45 AM
I would imagine SCT will have some big popup thingy when shieldslam is ready for those worried about missing one hehe

If you have buff announcements turned on floating combat text or any other thing like it, it should show something for Sword and Board since it is a buff that has a duration. The blizzard built in FCT or other addons could possibly even include some more obvious warning similar to overpower and revenge.

veneretio
08-25-2008, 12:01 PM
Why would this macro work? Wouldn't it just fail if shield slam were not available? Or were you joking? Internet sarcasm is sometimes difficult to detect.
It doesn't actually work. I forgot they changed the way macros like this worked since I last used something of this kind. So while, it wasn't internet sarcasm, let's just pretend it was.

That being said, it should be possible using some unconventional means. For instance, the spell surge weapon swap addon checks if there's a buff and then swaps weapons. I don't see why such a thing isn't possible for warriors too where it checks if the buff is active then Shield Slams otherwise Devastates.

Is this possible without an addon? No
Is this cheating if you use an addon? Hard to say

It's all food for thought though. I wouldn't get too worked up about any of it. For all we know the talent could change before WotLK anyway.

Ciderhelm
08-25-2008, 12:09 PM
Are people finding it lag-free enough to actually use shield slam on the next GCD after it procs?

Yes, it's implemented well.

You get the buff near instantly when you use the ability that procs it. The cooldown of the attack that procced it still has to finish.

The only thing that is awkward in Beta right now is a proc off Shield Slam, because no global cooldown shows at all. Unless I'm mistaken, it still requires the GCD to finish, so this leaves you spamming it a bit more than usual... but I can double check that easily enough.

Tobius
08-25-2008, 12:52 PM
I use a similar macro to have one button to cover both throw and shoot regardless of the gear I am wearing. You always get an error message saying on or the other doesn't work, but the one of the two always fires. The same is true of this macro.
If you put a:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
at the end of this macro or your shoot one it should stop giving you the error message.

Lore
08-25-2008, 12:59 PM
It has been my experience so far in the Wrath beta that /cast X /cast Y macros will fail entirely if X is unavailable, regardless of what Y is up to. So if Shield Slam is on cooldown, the macro sees "I can't cast Shield Slam, this macro sucks" and stops there.

jere
08-25-2008, 01:15 PM
Do you know if that is true for all abilities?

For some reason I was thinking that the macro

/cast Divine Favor
/cast Holy Light

would work even if Divine Favor wasn't available, but I could be smoking something. If it does work, it might be the difference between abilities that trigger a global cooldown versus those that don't. I thought warriors used a similar macro for shield block sometimes.

I do know that /use can be cascaded:

/use 13
/use 14

will use the 2nd trinket even if the 1st is on cooldown.

Taelas
08-25-2008, 01:15 PM
That's quite intentional -- they made sure that would happen when they redid the API for TBC. They do not want "smart" macros. It was possible to put any rotation (such as SS > Rev > Sunder > Sunder) on a single key before by simply using script language.

The shoot/throw macro works because it has conditionals, such as

/cast [equipped:Thrown] Throw; Shoot

That is verbatim the macro I use, so I know it works.

It will not be possible to do Vene's macro under any circumstances. Not via an add-on, either; add-ons are strictly limited to what Blizzard lets them do, and this is something they specifically prohibit.

Unless the Shield Slam proc is taken off the GCD, but I seriously doubt that'll happen.

Taelas
08-25-2008, 01:17 PM
Do you know if that is true for all abilities?

For some reason I was thinking that the macro

/cast Divine Favor
/cast Holy Light

would work even if Divine Favor wasn't available, but I could be smoking something. If it does work, it might be the difference between abilities that trigger a global cooldown versus those that don't. I thought warriors used a similar macro for shield block sometimes.

You can do it for abilities that do not trigger GCDs, yes. AP-PoM-Pyro still works, for instance.

Danach
08-25-2008, 01:25 PM
When S&B was first released I wrote a very basic combat sim to see what sort of numbers I would get out of it. S&B averaged out to be roughly a 2.4% increase in threat and nearly 11% rage saved. The saved rage of course could be spent on Heroic Strikes as noted, which I did not model, but that would certainly increase the overall threat generated. Removing revenge from your rotation brought the total threat increase up to 2.75% due to the 4ppm instead of 3. However it ended up costing 4% more rage even with the extra proc due to the rage efficiency of revenge. Of course all these numbers were generated with the threat levels of the abilities at level 70, with typical tank gear, wrath gear could radically skew the results.

byechee
08-25-2008, 02:12 PM
The shoot/throw macro works because it has conditionals, such as

/cast [equipped:Thrown] Throw; Shoot

That is verbatim the macro I use, so I know it works.



actually, the throw/shoot macro i use (and i think this is what someone was referring to earlier) is just

/cast throw
/cast shoot

no conditionals, and it works fine (try it! all you get is the slightly annoying red error text when you can't throw, which you can remove with the line someone posted earlier, but to me it's not a big deal). similarly, my mount macro is simply

/cast Swift Blue Gryphon
/cast Amani War Bear

and that does fine as well, as it casts my flying mount in outlands and my regular mount in azeroth.

Foolishness
08-25-2008, 06:09 PM
as far as im concered, sword and board looks like an awesome talent.


however.. WHATS WITH THE NAME? for crying out loud blizzard, please dont use in game jargon to name your talents! You are more creative than that!

same with critical block! NONONONO

I predict tears running down my face as i put points into sword and board, purely because i can't believe they picked such a silly name for it.

Wars
08-25-2008, 06:23 PM
I wanted to thank cider for putting out some real great info about the different aspects in which the game is changing and that we ourselves will be changing in playstyle and effect as far as warriors go. Few things off the top of my head.

1) If you are interested in doing podcasts again w/lore, I know we are all for it, many of us I am sure ipod'd them and listened to em on the way to work or sitting around the dorm room. The instance format sounds like a great idea; I write for the Azeroth Advisor(that annoying ad on curse/worldofraids/wowhead) and one of the best things I've learned is if you're going to write/talk about instances you can often become pretty circumlocute. Shit can get real long-winded, maybe break each instance up into a 1-2 minute run down. Talk about our stengths as warriors(for yourself) in whatever roll you're playing. If lore wants to chime in about his huge #s as a DK then that would probably help too(I bet he'll be spec'n blood won't you lorepallydk?).

2) Moderation, I know many of us around here at least the regulars know when we see someone out of line, if you're looking for forum moderators, there are plenty of us here that visit the site 2-3 times a day checking the forums and seeing what is going on in here.

3) If you've got beta(and I'm insanely jealous) moreover than podcasts, throw some shots/videos up of the runs. #s, how things look, what you think needs tuning. Yeah, I'm sure you have a real job(though I seem to be running this plant fine while typing on the one of 10 computers in the room) just like the rest of us, and if you don't have time, no prob.
I know the rest of us would love to see more shots of the new instances, encounters, videos, descriptions of the bosses and of course the lore.

4) WTB Tankspot guild in wow, though I guess we'd be lacking healers/dps eh? I've been using recruit a friend for a week and have my 3rd warrior at 54 and my alt priest at 53.

A bunch of us from different servers rolled over on blackrock in a guild called <OP> and we're lvl'n real fast, good server and badass horde population, if you're looking for some fresh meat to run with, we're having a lot of fun nightly.

Glad to see you taking the time to keep us updated on the front page, wish we could have more beta testers on this site, it would certainly kick a lot of ass to have a tank beta mecha amirite!!?

Kazeyonoma
08-25-2008, 06:40 PM
Merged your thread here Wars since it's the appropriate location.

Lore
08-25-2008, 08:47 PM
I am specced frost on my DK, cuz it has bigger numbers.

Seriously I just crit a howling blast for 4.5k. I'm level 68.

Machus
08-25-2008, 09:23 PM
My main problem with Sword and Board is that it makes it impossible to hold a steady rotation (unless you specifically save the proc until Revenge, Devastate and Devastate have been performed, but that means losing procs).

OK, I don't have much experience tanking in a raid, but I don't find this a problem. I've never learned to keep a steady rotation. Instead, I always watch the SS, Revenge, and Devastate icons and hit the best one that's about to come off cooldown that I have enough rage for.

Hypatia
08-26-2008, 12:38 AM
OK, I don't have much experience tanking in a raid, but I don't find this a problem. I've never learned to keep a steady rotation. Instead, I always watch the SS, Revenge, and Devastate icons and hit the best one that's about to come off cooldown that I have enough rage for.

The main utility of a "rotation" is that it frees you from having to think too too hard about that portion of what you're doing. If you're pretty certain on a given fight that you'll always be in good shape to continue the Big Four, the it really pays to be able to keep doing that even, say, while watching for a boss to cast fear. Or, more relevantly, while dragging around a fire elemental, making sure it never faces the raid, and keeping up good threat output in FR gear. (That's the situation that made me really buckle down on things.)

Of course, it's never that simple. The good warrior tank has to be adaptable, because you don't always have enough rage. You have to be able to mix in demo shout and thunder clap if they're needed and for some reason your debuff b... er... DPS warrior had to run away from something nasty. You have to be ready for emergency buttons, stance dances, and the like.

Having S&B procs will definitely be an interesting difference. I'm still not sure I believe S&B is worth five talent points that deep in the tree the way it is now, but aside from that I'd say it's a good idea. It's something for "everyday tanking" that rewards a player who's adaptable (even when the fight doesn't force it). It satisfies a craving for occasional "big numbers". It does provide a threat boost.

I definitely expect to try it in LK. Once I reach 80, I'll probably sit down and do some log parsing and some math and compare it to other things I could spend those five points on to see if it really stands up. Anecdotal evidence sounds good, but it sounds so good that I'm not sure I believe the tooltip right now. We'll see. :)

Taelas
08-26-2008, 05:46 AM
OK, I don't have much experience tanking in a raid, but I don't find this a problem. I've never learned to keep a steady rotation. Instead, I always watch the SS, Revenge, and Devastate icons and hit the best one that's about to come off cooldown that I have enough rage for.
You can do that, of course -- but I find that at some point, it becomes a reflex. When you have a steady rotation, you don't have to think about what you're doing; you just do it.

Hypatia explained it much better than I did, so I'll refrain from going into further detail.

As I said, it's an annoyance, but not a big deal. :)

Kromzul
08-26-2008, 06:09 AM
When S&B was first released I wrote a very basic combat sim to see what sort of numbers I would get out of it. S&B averaged out to be roughly a 2.4% increase in threat and nearly 11% rage saved. The saved rage of course could be spent on Heroic Strikes as noted, which I did not model, but that would certainly increase the overall threat generated. Removing revenge from your rotation brought the total threat increase up to 2.75% due to the 4ppm instead of 3. However it ended up costing 4% more rage even with the extra proc due to the rage efficiency of revenge. Of course all these numbers were generated with the threat levels of the abilities at level 70, with typical tank gear, wrath gear could radically skew the results.

I think this is probably the best approach to it, writing a simulator to determine the results, because it's a difficult talent to evaluate. And it's basically what I would have expected; a marginal threat gain with a slightly more significant rage efficiency bonus. I will add that, if they don't do anything about Revenge, then Devastate will probably thoroughly overtake it in turns of threat output at 80.

However, I am a little surprised that the 3xDevastate result is an effective reduction in rage efficiency. And does this simulator assume the -3 rage to Sunder/Devastate talent?

Kazeyonoma
08-26-2008, 09:12 AM
well, revenge does only cost 2 rage compared to the 9 devastate costs.

Jasra
08-26-2008, 11:04 PM
Yes, it is possible to chain shield slams with S&B. It's nice to have, but I really think it should cost less and be much lower in the tree. 2 points would be a no-brainer. 3 points would need some consideration (after all, we haven't seen all the alternatives yet), but 5 seems like too much sacrifice.

Ghladum
08-27-2008, 08:19 AM
A SS with 3x Devastates rotation would leave Revenge able to be used in rage-starved situations. Sometimes it feels like an eternity before I'm able to get my next attack in if I've gone and blown all my rage on an ill-advised Heroic Strike...

Machus
08-27-2008, 08:47 AM
Since the Imp. Revenge talent now includes both a threat boost and a 45% stun, I'm guessing that we'll have to think about using Revenge rather than using it automatically. At least for trash, the rotation may be SS, Dev, Dev, Dev, with Revenge used in a more active way, for example to try and interrupt or stop a mob.

Wesclorck
08-27-2008, 09:01 AM
Hopefully the PowerAuras mod survives into wrath. I'll set up a big bright graphic to appear with a sound when SnB procs and I'll never miss a bonus SS.

Kazeyonoma
08-27-2008, 09:03 AM
But imp revenge has always done that, and I never once thought about saving revenge, if it stunned, great, if it didn't no big deal, now I'd pick up the talent just to get the bonus threat, the stun is a bonus. Any boss that matters won't be stunnable so I won't rage starve myself, and against bosses that are stunnable, dps just has to watch their threat for a few seconds.

AnvilDK
08-28-2008, 11:07 PM
But imp revenge has always done that, and I never once thought about saving revenge, if it stunned, great, if it didn't no big deal, now I'd pick up the talent just to get the bonus threat, the stun is a bonus. Any boss that matters won't be stunnable so I won't rage starve myself, and against bosses that are stunnable, dps just has to watch their threat for a few seconds.

Love to see the talent spec where you have made room for improved revenge.

This is the spec I am considering at 60

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=05000300000000000000000000000000500510253 002123501350133102000000000000000000000000 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=05002301200000000000000000000000500510253 002123501350135105000000000000000000000000)
and this would be my level 70.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=05002301200000000000000000000000500510253 002123501350135105000000000000000000000000

I for one just can not make room for a single attack improving talent where half the talent bonus is considered undesirable (my opinion). I would rather take incite if I was a main tank or improved disarmed if I was not.

I personally welcome any bloat reducing talent changes so I get more room for fun talents. Losing Safeguard is quite a blow. I did have a alternative build but at the expense of Toughness.

Having 16 mandatory points in the first 3 tiers of protection looks like alot to me. The alternative talents at the respective tiers are just fluff compared to core improvements.

Anvil

Ghladum
08-29-2008, 02:45 PM
I'm just thinking, and this might not be correct, but from what I've heard, it seems like with 5/5 SwAB, the Shield Slam + 3x Dev rotation works out to be higher threat and possibly slightly more rage efficient. (Man, I'd love to get some number for this, but everything is still being adjusted, so it very well may be a waste of time.)

But if that's true, nobody will put 3 points in Imp Rev just to bring up a SS + Rev + Dev + Dev rotation to being as good as the SS + 3x Dev rotation threat wise.

Also, Revenge isn't modified by Attack Power, it's a standard 450-550 damage attack. With Warriors now stacking Str for tanking, if this mechanic isn't changed, I'd be very very surprised if Revenge is as worthwhile (other than a rage-starved filler) especially in endgame raiding, where the Str will only make Devastates shine more.

All of this would make the warrior a two-button-masher with an occasional other button thrown in, which would probably not be as fun as the manic nature of our current rotations. :)

Kazeyonoma
08-29-2008, 04:08 PM
I thought I read that Revenge was being based on AP in the beta as well, was this misinformation on my part?

Ghladum
08-30-2008, 02:03 AM
Awesome! No, it surely wasn't!