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creepzor
08-22-2008, 06:05 AM
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/icons/iwarriors.gif Warrior (Skills List (http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?page=600) / Talent Calc. (8820) (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior))
Skills
Arms


Thunderclap cooldown increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.


Protection


Shield Wall damage reduction increased from 50% to 60%.
Shield Block now Increases your chance to block and block value by 100% for 5 sec. Cooldown changed from 30 seconds to 1 minute.


Talents

ARMS


Bladestorm now lasts 6 seconds instead of 4.5 seconds.
Strength of Arms moved from tier 10 to tier 8. Changed to a 2 point talent and now increases your total strength and total health by 2/4% (was 1/2/3/4/5%)
New talent - Wrecking Crew (Tier 10) - Your melee critical hits have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to Enrage you, increasing all damage caused by 3% for 12 sec.
Blood Frenzy now makes your Rend and Deep Wounds abilities also increase all physical damage caused to that target by 1/2%. (was 2/4/%)
New talent - Bull rush (Tier 9) - Increases the duration of the Stun effect of your Charge and Intercept abilities by 0.4/0.7/1 seconds.
Improved Mortal Strike now increases the damage caused by your Mortal Strike ability by 2/4/6/8/10% and gives your Enraged Assault ability a 6/12/18/24/30% chance to refresh the cooldown of Mortal Strike.
Trauma has been moved from tier 8 to tier 9.
Unrelenting assault now reduces the cooldown of your Overpower and Revenge by 2/4 seconds. (was 1/2 seconds)
Mace specialization changed, it now gives your melee attacks a chance to generate 10 rage when using a Mace.
Improved charge now increases the amount of rage generated by your charge ability by 5/10 (was 3/6).
Bloodletting has been renamed to Improved Rend once again, and doesn't affect Bloodbath anymore.
Improved Slam (Tier 7) has been moved to the Arms tree.
New talent - Taste for Blood (Tier 4) - Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 10/20/30% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability for 5 secs.
New talent - Justified Killing (Tier 4) - You gain 6 rage every time you parry an attack.


FURY


Heroic Leap moved from Tier 11 to Tier 9.
Titan's Grip moved from Tier 10 to Tier 11. It is now 1 rank and Allows you to equip two-handed axes, maces and swords in one hand. No speed penalty anymore.
Furious Resolve (Tier 9) removed.
New Talent - Furious Attacks (Tier 8 ) - Your normal melee attacks have a 50/100% chance to reduce all healing done to the target by 25% for 8 sec. This can stack up to 2 times.
Rampage (Tier 9) completely changed: Your melee critical hits cause you to go on a rampage, increasing melee critical hit chance of all party and raid members within 20 yds by 5%. Lasts 10 sec.
Intensify Rage moved to Tier 5 and completely changed: Reduces the cooldown of your Bloodrage, Berserker Rage, Recklessness and Deathwish abilities by 11/22/33%.
Improved Slam (Tier 5) Moved to arms.
Death Wish is (Tier 5) now flagged as an Enrage.
Enrage (Tier 4) now gives you 3/6/9/12/15% increased damage after being the victim of a critical strike. It now works on all attacks for 12 sec. (Previously 5/10/15/20/25% and lasted for 12 swings)
New talent - Unending Fury (Tier 10) - Reduces the rage cost of your Cleave, Whirlwind and Bloodthirst abilities by 1 and gives your Enraged Assault ability a 6/12/18/24/30% chance to refresh the cooldown of Bloodthirst

PROTECTION


Stalwart Protector (Tier 8 ) has been removed.
Shield Mastery (Tier 6) Changed to increase block value by 10/20/30%.
Improved Sunder Armor (Tier 4) renamed to Puncture.
Improved Shield Block (Tier 3) Reduces the cooldown of Shield Block by 10/20 sec. (Previously 5/10 sec)


Discuss

phaze
08-22-2008, 07:01 AM
ARMS

New talent - Justified Killing (Tier 4) - You gain 6 rage every time you parry an attack.


PROTECTION


Stalwart Protector (Tier 8 ) has been removed.



I'm curious if there are other plans for gaining rage from Dodges, now that Stalwart Protector has morphed into Justified Killing (and changed talent trees).

EDIT: oh hey, more discussion in the General Forum threads, yay for reading out of order. ;)

creepzor
08-22-2008, 07:20 AM
Yeah, there is a thread in the general forums, but I saw that it was dealing with tanking. As you can see, this has everything, including the awesome looking arms and fury trees now. Titans grip has no speed reduction anymore? thank you!

Daavos
08-22-2008, 07:45 AM
i don't know... seems like the death of the pve arms warrior.

Meeks
08-22-2008, 08:02 AM
i don't know... seems like the death of the pve arms warrior.

This is prob true though it remains to be seen how enrage assault will interact with Wrecking Crew to increase dps. Though with the impressive changes to fury it is going to be a much better raiding spec then it is now.

Rishkkin
08-22-2008, 08:11 AM
i don't know... seems like the death of the pve arms warrior.

Any way you slice it I don't think we'll be able to rivalise with the utility and DPS of DW TG Fury.

it's not our 2 % blood frenzy that will make up for raid utility.

Our personal dps will still be pale in comparison to fury.

It is a dark dark for PvE arms...

Kavtor
08-22-2008, 08:33 AM
i don't know... seems like the death of the pve arms warrior.

Actually the synergy between bleeds, rends, and overpower which will keep up wrecking crew seem really solid. Between that, second wind, Imp. Intercept, and Imp. Hamstring, I think it'll still be the PVP tree of choice.

Rishkkin
08-22-2008, 08:50 AM
Actually the synergy between bleeds, rends, and overpower which will keep up wrecking crew seem really solid. Between that, second wind, Imp. Intercept, and Imp. Hamstring, I think it'll still be the PVP tree of choice.

They already said that their objective was to stop pigeon-holing trees in definitive roles.

The changes we see is pushing us out of the PvE game...

Meeks
08-22-2008, 08:59 AM
Who is being pushed out? Until enraged assault is tested with Wrecking Crew we have no idea what kind of dps arms is going to be putting out.

Enraged Assult:

A furious assault that consumes an Enrage effect on the warrior and attacks with all weapons. Can only be used while Enraged.
15 Rage, 5 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown

Arms will conviently be having an enrage effect that they can keep getting up and using.

Still a lot of testing to do before declaring arms warriors dead.

Tatt
08-22-2008, 09:01 AM
I like how rampage and the MS-like talent are making fury warriors a more raid buffing class, without taking away their high personal dps potential. No one can ever say, "Why not just bring a rogue" anymore.

Schleppy
08-22-2008, 09:08 AM
Plus the 30% chance of rend damage ticks to activate overpower. That works out to roughly twice overpower will light up every rend duration. (also now there is a reason to want to lower overpower's cooldown further down the talent tree.) That could turn out to be a considerable amount of dps for little rage investment allowing for a more stable rotation. That right there is a possibly big improvement that we simply cannot test right now to see how much of an improvement.

Daavos
08-22-2008, 09:11 AM
Actually the synergy between bleeds, rends, and overpower which will keep up wrecking crew seem really solid. Between that, second wind, Imp. Intercept, and Imp. Hamstring, I think it'll still be the PVP tree of choice.

yeah but for pve arms it looks like you'll lose flurry if you want wrecking crew.

I'm still noobish to the whole pve arms spec (i mostly tank) but stance dancing to get off over power seems to kill my rage.

If only they put tac mastery back in arms...

for pvp: fury is looking alot better now that they have MS.

also for tanking.... Justified Killing (lol name ftw) this should be in the defense stance. I can't see many tanks putting 16 points in Arms to get this, or why as pve dps or pvp spec you'd bother to put points into this. I know i'm being negative... i'm just disappointed with the current changes. BTW bliz, can I get back my 27,000 honor for S2 mace I bought for arena?

Kavtor
08-22-2008, 09:47 AM
Sure PVE arms will loose Flurry. You probably wouldn't want it any way with the changes to windfury.
It's too early to tell, but I think 2% blood frenzy and Trauma along with all the bleed synergy and procs may keep PVE arms as a real possibility. Especially if you've got a feral druid, and rampage and LotP don't stack.

I think there's enough potential in the tree that Blizzard can tweak both arms and fury to be useful in a raid.

Rishkkin
08-22-2008, 10:19 AM
Who is being pushed out? Until enraged assault is tested with Wrecking Crew we have no idea what kind of dps arms is going to be putting out.

Enraged Assult:

A furious assault that consumes an Enrage effect on the warrior and attacks with all weapons. Can only be used while Enraged.
15 Rage, 5 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown

Arms will conviently be having an enrage effect that they can keep getting up and using.

Still a lot of testing to do before declaring arms warriors dead.

Same for fury, although it will more of a choice for them (Death wish, is now considered an enrage effect, so my guess is that could use it just before it fades out) They still have enrage, which however isn't required anymore for flurry.

Fury seems to have been given many tools to cover their weakness (raid utility, pvp viability via the ms debuff, dps boost)

Arms got better bleeds, a nerfed blood frenzy, reduced rage generation (via the WF change)

I'll go test out the changes that's for sure, but my expectations are set very low compare to what I was expecting before the last build

Rishkkin
08-22-2008, 10:23 AM
Another question, how many times do you switch to battle stance in raids ?

for my part, if I wanted to keep my rotation running that was a no go.

The only time I was in battle stance was when I'm grinding mobs that I can 1-2 or 3 shots

Charge --> Slam --> ms --> Victory Rush
rince repeat

How many ticks rend would do if I had used it ? 1 tick at best ?

Meeks
08-22-2008, 10:27 AM
Same for fury, although it will more of a choice for them (Death wish, is now considered an enrage effect, so my guess is that could use it just before it fades out) They still have enrage, which however isn't required anymore for flurry.


Fury will be able to use enraged assualt once every couple of minutes. Arms will be able to use it about every 10 seconds because they get an enraged effect every time they crit. Which in turn will also have a chance of allowing another MS.

Plus arms will get more chances to overpower.

The question is how do all these damage abililites add up?

ebs2002
08-22-2008, 10:54 AM
Once a minute. Bloodrage is an enrage effect.

Rishkkin
08-22-2008, 10:56 AM
yeah I agree that we will be able to use enraged assault more often.

As far as overpower goes, if we can't use it in zerker stance, it will still be meh.

We'll see when enrages assault will be available, but I don't hold my breath over that one.

Rishkkin
08-22-2008, 11:03 AM
Every 40 seconds then since the would obviously take intensify rage which will lower their CD by 33 % (20 seconds) on Berzerker rage which is also an enrage effect.

Rishkkin
08-22-2008, 11:05 AM
so, staking all those on activation enrage effect, they would still be quite close to our activation cycle.

Rishkkin
08-22-2008, 11:24 AM
Is Recklessness considered an enrage effect now ?

Just trying to figure out a rotation for fury that would maximise the use of Enraged assault.

Brucimus
08-22-2008, 12:56 PM
i don't know... seems like the death of the pve arms warrior.


I Cant believe there is any QQ at all


This is absolutely amazing news

Daavos
08-22-2008, 04:44 PM
I Cant believe there is any QQ at all


This is absolutely amazing news

Fury is amazing.

Arms, I'm more concerned about about for pve.

Proc, I think they're still trying to figure it out.

Bloodfrenzy +2% mele raid damage to target(S) affected.

Rampage +5% to mele raid crit on alltargets

Rampart
08-22-2008, 04:56 PM
Man, about time. Now my little old tank warrior actually has a reason to go Fury. He finally brings something to the table that other warriors can't. And well, he doesn't have to go arms. :P

Daavos
08-22-2008, 05:17 PM
Another question, how many times do you switch to battle stance in raids ?


^ this

and how many times does a mob dodge your attack to get over power to light up? Even with the passive overpower lightup the bleed effects better be damn good.

Aldragoriad
08-23-2008, 12:35 AM
Another question, how many times do you switch to battle stance in raids ?


Actually the real question is, will all the bleeds and overpower procs be enough to stay in battle as arms, instead of 3% crit and WW from zerker. At least thats the way I read blizz's changes.

Rishkkin
08-23-2008, 07:32 AM
^ this

and how many times does a mob dodge your attack to get over power to light up? Even with the passive overpower lightup the bleed effects better be damn good.

Hopefully, not very often (thanks to expertise)

And even then, switching to battle and going back to zerker will break the slam ms ww rotation so badly... it's definitely not worth it.

Unless they give us a real incentive to fight in battle stance...

Rishkkin
08-23-2008, 07:34 AM
Actually the real question is, will all the bleeds and overpower procs be enough to stay in battle as arms, instead of 3% crit and WW from zerker. At least thats the way I read blizz's changes.

I will be very hard un less you always fight only 1 mob at a time. the moment you're able to use WW on more than 1 target the benefit from bing in zerker increases.

Aldragoriad
08-23-2008, 10:54 AM
I have my doubts about it actually happening, its just how I read blizz's intentions with these changes. They all seem to be geared towards battle stance instead of Zerker.

Rishkkin
08-24-2008, 05:37 AM
Did some testing in one of my usual grinding spot last night. (The sunfury blood elves outside of BT)

It still usually went like this :

Charge --> white (0 sec) --> slam (1 sec) --> MS (3.0 sec)
move on to next mob
Victory Rush (0 sec) --> White (1.5 sec) --> Slam (2.0 sec) --> MS (3.5 sec)
move on to next mob
Charge --> White (0 sec) --> Victory Rush (1 sec) --> White (2.5 sec) --> Slam (3.0 sec) --> MS (4.5 sec)

The only difference I saw was the amount of rage I had left after killing a mob. I presume this is due to endless rage more than anything else there.

Seeing not much changes from my killing speed on live, I tried to slip in rend right after the charge to see if it could proc Overpower, the mob we still dying to fast so rend couldn't tick very often, so I only saw 2 procs of Overpower due to rend tick over 80 mobs killed. More often than not that 'wasted GCD' made my killing speed slower.

I then went after some elites to have longer fight. I choose the elites that leads to doomwalker, since they were close to my location.

Charge --> White --> Rend --> white --> slam --> white --> ms

Trying to use overpower as soon as it lights up.

Honestly I didn't saw it light up that much, my guess is that the 30 % proc rate per tick is too low.

I killed them faster with the standard rotation of slam / ms / ww than staying in battle stance.

I'll try to do some testing in a raid setting, but I have yet to do any raids in beta so far.

Daavos
08-24-2008, 11:16 AM
Did some testing in one of my usual grinding spot last night. (The sunfury blood elves outside of BT)

It still usually went like this :

Charge --> white (0 sec) --> slam (1 sec) --> MS (3.0 sec)
move on to next mob
Victory Rush (0 sec) --> White (1.5 sec) --> Slam (2.0 sec) --> MS (3.5 sec)
move on to next mob
Charge --> White (0 sec) --> Victory Rush (1 sec) --> White (2.5 sec) --> Slam (3.0 sec) --> MS (4.5 sec)

The only difference I saw was the amount of rage I had left after killing a mob. I presume this is due to endless rage more than anything else there



Seeing not much changes from my killing speed on live, I tried to slip in rend right after the charge to see if it could proc Overpower, the mob we still dying to fast so rend couldn't tick very often, so I only saw 2 procs of Overpower due to rend tick over 80 mobs killed. More often than not that 'wasted GCD' made my killing speed slower.

I then went after some elites to have longer fight. I choose the elites that leads to doomwalker, since they were close to my location.

Charge --> White --> Rend --> white --> slam --> white --> ms

Trying to use overpower as soon as it lights up.

Honestly I didn't saw it light up that much, my guess is that the 30 % proc rate per tick is too low.

I killed them faster with the standard rotation of slam / ms / ww than staying in battle stance.

I'll try to do some testing in a raid setting, but I have yet to do any raids in beta so far.

thanks for the info.

how much does your rend tic for with all the new talents that revolve around it?

Rishkkin
08-24-2008, 04:22 PM
can't recall the exact number, but it's still negligible @ 70

The lvl 71 rank will surely help against mobs that enrage but even then, it would be very situational. Most standard mobs enrage < 30 %. A point where there's usually only a very few seconds left. As such the damage might not be that much noticeable.

Gorgrim Warcry
08-24-2008, 04:27 PM
Something that everyone is overlooking about the arms changes, if you keep up with the EJ forums you will learn that dps warriors in sunwell have become the the rogues of molten core they are the hardest class to keep alive when it comes to current end game raiding. An MS warrior in battle stance may end up being preffered to a face planted fury warrior.

Hopefully after some testing is done it won't be as bad as we think.

I really don't understand the nerf to blood frenzy at all why in the hell do they think that was warrented.

Rishkkin
08-24-2008, 06:19 PM
the hardest class to keep alive when it comes to current end game raidingI haven't been in SW, but I'm betting this is more of a design problem than than thing else.

Lots of AoE, very melee unfriendly fights.

Tune the encounters, not the class if you can't keep em alive.

I'll do some more testing in the next few days, but so far, I'm not really impressed with arms in its current state.

Rishkkin
08-25-2008, 06:18 AM
I read a few posts on the beta forum saying that taste for blood is bugged.

It's proc rate is so low that the ability is barely working. that might explain why I saw so few overpower opportunities.

Rishkkin
08-25-2008, 10:22 AM
Did some more testing during lunch time, here are my conclusions :

Tests were done against "Servant of Razelikh" in the Blasted lands, I let auto-attack on and only tried to refresh Rend as it was about to expire

- Wrecking Crew affects Rend Dot as well a Deep Wounds dot (Better try to apply rend when you have 3 stacks of 'Enrage' effect)
- My Rend ticks went from 134 to 230 dmg, depending if wrecking crew is active or not.
- Talent taste for blood is definitely NOT working as I haven't seen a single dodge of my attacks appear.
- Bug : if you apply Rend when you have 1-2 or 3 stacks of enrage effect from wrecking crew, and then try to refresh the debuff after the Enrage effect is over, you will get a "A more powerful spell is already active" message

Until the next build you are better off avoiding the <Taste for blood> talent, since it is obviously worthless

Meeks
08-25-2008, 10:25 AM
Today it was heavily implied that the fury raid crit bonus WILL NOT stack with lotp.


2) To get a 5% melee crit bonus, you can bring a Feral druid for Leader of the Pack or a Fury warrior for Rampage.


That sounds like fury was not buffed as much as we thought.

Rishkkin
08-25-2008, 10:33 AM
They said that it wasn't set in stone (they're still reviewing what will stack with what) but indeed I don't think they will let you stack both...