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protonly
08-21-2008, 09:50 AM
I've been trying to farm hmgt for either of the tank trinkets and it has been nearly impossible to get (PUG) what I would call the ideal group. I've done it with undergeared people and non-ideal class/spec combinations but it is usually a wipe fest (10+ wipes).

I'm curious if (1) it is too eliteist of me to refuse to group with a non-ideal group because I feel the chances of success without a Power healer and 3 strong cc are very small if any. My gear is decent but not good enough to carry a shoddy healer nor am I comfortable multi-tanking heroics right now with less than two strong cc/dps or one strong cc/dps if we have a Power healer. I'm also curious for a pug (2)what some of you could consider an average amount of time and (3) wipes for a hmgt pug. I would say two hours or so isn't out of line nor is 3-4 wipes (I've never personally been in a clean hmgt run even in the most stacked of groups).

And yeah I'm asking these questions based on a diaster of a pug that, at the least, had some comedic wipes from a drunk/high rogue.

Tatt
08-21-2008, 10:25 AM
There is nothing wrong with wanting minimum 2 cc classes for hmgt, especially if it is a pug. Hmgt is definately one of the most difficult heroics in the game, and without some really sharp geared players, you want all teh advantages you can get. 2 hours sounds right, and even the best geared players shouldn't be surprised by a wipe or two from a bad pull, or a fear going off at the wrong time. I personally prefer mage/rogue/warlock if I am tanking it, or a pally tank if I am going as fury. There is nothing wrong with looking for ways to streamline a heroic, only idiots or Illidan killers go looking for ways to make heroics more difficult than they need to be.

Inaara
08-21-2008, 10:50 AM
Raiding has taken away the splendor of 5 man's for me, at least until WotLK when I roll DK. I refuse to enter HMGT without an ideal group setup including a mage, warlock, rogue/hunter/mage for the three DPS choices. I am lazy and would rather tank 1-2 mobs instead of 5 lol. Also when you have good CC your healer doesnt have to be all that good.

protonly
08-21-2008, 10:56 AM
That's about what I thought but even I get off my rocker at times.

My ideal group would be: me (of course), coh priest (fort, fear, mc), lock, mage, non-huntard hunter/rogue. I would consider the gear minimum requirements to be pve gear on par with post-kara (mostly kara epics/badges, no greens, few pvp and blues).

Only threw this out after two nights of pugs where people started to complain at about the two hour mark that "this is taking too long." Last night my reply of: "Well, we certainly don't overgear the place outside of the T5 mage so what did you expect?" didn't go over well.

Tatt
08-21-2008, 10:59 AM
Umm, your comment about having a priest for fears is kind of frightening. I am trying to think of a pull in MGT that you would actually WANT stuff to get feared, it is such a crammed cluster of shit that fears seem like they would just be wipe invites.

tlacaelel
08-21-2008, 11:37 AM
I kinda dislike going with an all CC group, just because.. i dunno, it seems unfair to me for dps shamans, shadow priests, ret pallys, warriors...

However, i wouldnt go without 2 CC's... 2 warlocks for CC and a spriest, well, is not gonna cut it, right? My ideal group, dunno why, but i love this setup, is rogue, warlock, non-huntard hunter, any kind of healer (but i kinda like pally ones), and myself (pally tank). That's right, no frikking noobtard mages. Most of the PUG mages i've met are unable to understand that consecrate will break their sheep. I mean, i announce where i'm going to consecrate, so, i ask em to sheep before they get there, i ask them if they want me to throw my shield to that target to slow them down or if they feel comfortable by not doing that, and even so, they sheep when i have already the mob on me by using LOS.

So, for PUGs, no mages, for the pvp fight, trap works wonders, so does the sap, and if you happen to have a demon, banish + a fear is awesome, + my fear if we have 2 demons.

protonly
08-21-2008, 12:05 PM
Umm, your comment about having a priest for fears is kind of frightening. I am trying to think of a pull in MGT that you would actually WANT stuff to get feared, it is such a crammed cluster of shit that fears seem like they would just be wipe invites.

I _think_ one of the princess's adds can be feared but i don't remember and generally we clear that whole room. But yeah for the most part you don't want to fear jack shit.

Eh, life is unfair for some specs but I'll group with anyone for most heroics (even lolrets)...at least one cc though, I don't like to work hard if I can avoid it by group composition. But not hmgt quite yet...I don't feel comfortable in a non-stacked group without a serious power healer and strong dps to not use 3 cc.

Stearns
08-21-2008, 02:44 PM
I love MagT. Its one of my favorite heroics now. I've moved from early wipe fests when I first hit 70, to fast clears with great (overgeared) players in under 1 hour.

Last nights clear was less than optimal, cc-wise (ie no mages, we ran with hunter, warlock, rogue). I couldnt be bothered to mark CC half the time, but tank threat & dps was high enough to cover the lack. One hour full clear again.

I think its fine to insist on gear/classes of your choice if its your group. My guild does that all the time with guild runs, which is why we are so successful. Don't feel bad: none of us are obligated to run each other through instances we're not geared or appropriate for.

Jrix
08-22-2008, 11:57 PM
1 CC is all I really prefer, and even that's iffy. When I tank it I aim for little CC, as to make it much more fun.

Many of the mobs can be solo'd by DPS classes from full health to none without taking enough damage to die.

Inaara
08-25-2008, 02:13 PM
1 CC is all I really prefer, and even that's iffy. When I tank it I aim for little CC, as to make it much more fun.

Many of the mobs can be solo'd by DPS classes from full health to none without taking enough damage to die.

That's because you get bored Jrix... lol. That of course is assuming that you're my Jrixypoo on boulderfist. There can be a problem with multimob tanking if the tanks gear isn't up to par. Walking into Hmgt with blues and expecting to be able to tank 3-4 mobs isn't realistic even with the most amazing healer as they will most likely pull aggro and die.

Tatt
08-25-2008, 02:25 PM
Same as saying that dps can down adds without dying, I think 100 healers just started screaming at the idea of everyone going to kill whatever they felt like.

And yeah I guess you could fear one of Delrissa's group if you had already cleared that room, I found that we had more stupid trash wipes when we tried to clear that room, then just saying don't fear anything in ehr group and pulling it all way back.

Jrix
08-26-2008, 10:19 AM
Stick an enhancement shaman on the magister for isntance. He keeps him purged and interrupted. He can use grounding totem to mitigate even more. If the shaman is at least halfway decent, the damage he'll take before the mob dies is about 4k.

Another trick I use to mitigate a lot of damage is to ask the healer to stand off to the right. While I am LoSing pulling to the left. Whenever the warlock casts incinerate and my health isn't near full, I immediately LoS the warlock and run around the little wall. You can keep doing it over and over without losing any threat on the other mobs.
You can do the same thing with the magister, however you have to keep doing it from the get go or else his spell haste builds up. You can ask any dps melee to solo and do the LoS trick on the magister or warlock as well. The warlock is my focus target so I usually just use my shield bash focus macro for him as well.

I think tanking this as a warrior is the easiest but I am giving advice that applies to any.

protonly
08-26-2008, 10:37 AM
Well, I haven't had much luck pug'ing since I posted this with pug'ing mgt. But I'm not going to stop trying; it is fun to tank as a warrior because you get to really do some cool things. I did manage a pity run with my pally's raiding guild and we leeroyed the place but you'd expect that with a full T6 crowd.

I think I'll take everything you all said and see what I can do with it. I think what I'm seeing is mostly too many new or way undergeared players wanting to do that instance since it is new (everyone that is geared or not retarded ran it a million times when it first came out and is bored/burnt out of it for trinket searching). I think I'll just stick to kara geared groups as the min and go on with things. Now if I could only get a healer with more than 1000 +healing and non-retarded dps I'd be set...or maybe I'll go "troxed" on them. Yay for being the only competent player in LFG? :^)

orcstar
08-30-2008, 06:44 AM
...Also when you have good CC your tank doesnt have to be all that good.
Edited for obvious reasons.

I see Heroic MgT as a test of skill, how well you can multitank and position mobs there where you want, but hey, that just might be me.

Sanelora
08-30-2008, 07:44 AM
Just for reference, all of princess' adds can be feared. she herself can not. one time i had a priest that insisted on standing at the front of the princess pull so she could instantly pop fear. man oh man did i want to kick her for getting herself killed way too much and wiping us but it was a RL friend's friend from our old guild. that was probably the strangest group i have run that place with...

protonly
09-03-2008, 09:47 AM
Edited for obvious reasons.

I see Heroic MgT as a test of skill, how well you can multitank and position mobs there where you want, but hey, that just might be me.

Well I might disagree slightly with that statement. Multi-tanking effictively requires a geared and skilled healer as in heroics due to the insane amount of damage that you'll take and it also requires non-retarded dps to nuke them quick before the healer goes oom.

But yes, H MgT is a test of gear and skill for all roles (dps/healer/tank) that is pretty much unmatched in any other 5 man right now.

Rev13
09-04-2008, 11:00 AM
I've been trying to farm hmgt for either of the tank trinkets and it has been nearly impossible to get (PUG) what I would call the ideal group. I've done it with undergeared people and non-ideal class/spec combinations but it is usually a wipe fest (10+ wipes).

I'm curious if (1) it is too eliteist of me to refuse to group with a non-ideal group because I feel the chances of success without a Power healer and 3 strong cc are very small if any. My gear is decent but not good enough to carry a shoddy healer nor am I comfortable multi-tanking heroics right now with less than two strong cc/dps or one strong cc/dps if we have a Power healer. I'm also curious for a pug (2)what some of you could consider an average amount of time and (3) wipes for a hmgt pug. I would say two hours or so isn't out of line nor is 3-4 wipes (I've never personally been in a clean hmgt run even in the most stacked of groups).

And yeah I'm asking these questions based on a diaster of a pug that, at the least, had some comedic wipes from a drunk/high rogue.

You need sharp CC, in all honesty.

I as PuGed in last night for the last 2 bosses (and the lone trash pull in between) and even then, we wiped on the Priestess biatch 3 times. When we finally took them all down, there were 2 of us standing. Why? Well, I'm sure most of you would consider a Mage/Mage/Hunter setup to be ideal, if not close to ideal right? The "ideallness" of the setup doesnt mean a thing if one of the mages cant keep her sheep up! That was the problem we ran into. 3 times the cocky PvP mage let her sheep pop and wouldnt re-sheep.

1 Mage that can sheep + 1 Hunter that can trap + something else not a mage > 2 Mages, 1 that can sheep and 1 that cant + 1 Hunter or whatever.

PS: The mount dropped, as did the tank sword, and I got'em both! :D

Thrawna
09-23-2008, 06:07 AM
I know this is an old thread but I haven't seen anyone mention this yet: locks can enslave the demons in the trash pulls and use them to offtank/dps. They actually do some sick damage and it pretty much puts the notoriously harder-than-the-bosses trash pulls in easy mode. My preferred setup as a pally tank is: healer of any class as long as they know what they're doing, lock, mage, insert any other dps class here but preferably a hunter. This has worked magic for me so far and I only have trouble when someone tries to go in woefully undergeared.

Also you need a mage for more than a sheep. They are the only ones that can come out of the debuff the adds from the second boss gives (with ice block), making the second boss lol-able.

Synchronize
09-23-2008, 10:00 AM
My advice is just to take people you trust with you. If they can CC, great, but if not, you can do it if everyone understands each other.

When MGT first opened up my first heroic run of it was me (prot warriot) 2 enhancement shamans, a fury warrior, and a holy paladin. According to how people put MGT groups together anymore, this is by common standards probably the worst heroic MGT group you could assemble. None of us were insanely geared, T5 at best. I was a mixture of Badge/ZA/mid T5. It was messy, we still didn't grasp all the fights correctly, but really the only problem we had was at Vex because no one could grasp the concept of the add control on it.

Later that week i puged it with a lock, a mage, a rogue and a resto shaman. wipefest.

I always see in trade when im hanging out in org: LF 2 CC for MGT, or, LF Lock for H Mech, or, LF Pally tank for kara/za . Its unfortunate that people have to fall back on so called "safetys" in order to even get a group started, but thats the way things have been as of late.

The biggest example of that I can think was Heroic Mech. A few months back people were running heroic mech like crazy, and EVERY pug group i saw in trade and general HAD to have a lock for the little bomber guys. I used to run it with a Shadow Priest friend of mine, and we would get to the Astromancers at the Elevator, Sheep one (if we had a mage), Id taunt the other while the priest MCed it, then tanked the little guys with his newly MCed Astromancer. If his astromancer was still up, we'd simply kill it off and MC the other and take out the other pack. Basicly, theres more than one way out of every situation, some ways you just have to either be lucky or stop and think about it for a bit.

As people have already stated... its a test of skill. Class combinations and gear help lower the skill requirement, but id take 4 people that know what they are doing, have no CC, no hots, etc, into there before i pug another random 3 CC again. Heck, my one Pug of MGT i took a mage in that was in basicly all greens on normal mode and he was keeping up with badge and kara/t5 DPSers.

So for anyone out there thats still pugging this, if theres a DPS with no CC lfg, give them a chance. Might just turn out to be your best run of the zone to date.

protonly
09-23-2008, 10:17 AM
So for anyone out there thats still pugging this, if theres a DPS with no CC lfg, give them a chance. Might just turn out to be your best run of the zone to date.

Even if they are a lolret :P A little update: hmgt is "so bad" on my server that the only day you ever see people in lfg for it is when it is the daily and even then most people avoid it and just run all of coilfang...

Dismember
09-23-2008, 10:30 AM
It's an unfortunate result of the fact that most people don't want to be challenged in an instance. They want quick and easy rewards. It's kinda like real life that way. So, they won't run H MrT, or won't run it without 3 CC and/or a pally tank.

Punchingbag
09-23-2008, 01:20 PM
I know this is an old thread but I haven't seen anyone mention this yet: locks can enslave the demons in the trash pulls and use them to offtank/dps. They actually do some sick damage and it pretty much puts the notoriously harder-than-the-bosses trash pulls in easy mode. My preferred setup as a pally tank is: healer of any class as long as they know what they're doing, lock, mage, insert any other dps class here but preferably a hunter. This has worked magic for me so far and I only have trouble when someone tries to go in woefully undergeared.

Also you need a mage for more than a sheep. They are the only ones that can come out of the debuff the adds from the second boss gives (with ice block), making the second boss lol-able.

Also, see if the healer can heal the enslaved succubus. I know this works in Mech when you enslave the little bomb guys. Now you have a demon running around damaging and seducing mobs while staying up for a longer time. I have only tanked regular MrT but pretty much consider a lock and a mage a necessity for good runs there. Hunter is great third for burning down those frickin imps 1-2-3 solo.

Schleppy
09-23-2008, 04:02 PM
When I'm tanking HMgT it honestly depends on my healer..

If I know the healer and know they can handle it, I'll go with 1 CC who can remove debuff's for boss #2 (either rogue or mage) and fill the other 2 spots with whatever.

If I dont know the healer I want rogue and mage, then fill the last with whatever.

If I see the healer is going to have a rough time from being either undergeared or what have you I want rogue+mage+hunter/warlock..

If I'm healing it comes down to 2 things..

Can the tank tank 3-5 mobs without being curb-stomped faster then my druid can toss heals? If so then I just want one person who can remove the debuff on boss #2 (rogue/mage/ret lolly)

If the tank cant take the pounding, then I want more CC while still keeping 1 person at least who can remove the debuff on boss #2.

I've actually found the worst problem is DPS running HMgT in half pvp gear/half greens pumping out an awesome 550-650 dps which makes the fights go long enough to drag the instance on past 2 hours, which is my limit for any 5 man instance.

protonly
09-24-2008, 05:32 AM
It's an unfortunate result of the fact that most people don't want to be challenged in an instance. They want quick and easy rewards. It's kinda like real life that way. So, they won't run H MrT, or won't run it without 3 CC and/or a pally tank.

Well that right there is what is going to happen when WOTLK hits. Even if all the current tanks remain tanking, the DK explosion is going to add another useless dps class (non-cc) to the game who is going to have a terrible time finding groups due to a lack of crowd control. CC is soo overpowered in a 5 man.

And yeah Schleppy....the only dps you can generally find is in half greens and they just don't undersand it when I say "Um, you don't meet the gear requirements...Kara level PVE gear please." Or worse they're in full arena gear which means they have NO CLUE about grouping or crowd control priorities (I don't have trap on my bar!)

Smaken
09-24-2008, 06:39 AM
Ran it on my Shaman a couple weeks ago, the mage (I had to armory him later) had a solid 23 spell hit rating. All pvp gear.

He was yelling "Don't hit my sheep" when it broke 2 seconds after he casted it. Checked recount - no sheep breaks.

tehrad
10-27-2008, 06:53 PM
anyone had more luck with the recent changes in H-MgT?

i badly need the trinket and could even do with the chest piece, but i remember going in there when it first opened and not getting past the first pull :(

blahism
10-28-2008, 08:49 AM
I don't think H-MgT got nerfd, just changes in talents that make tanking it a bit easier for human class so people aren't always begging for pally.

I like CC but i'll go in and give a run with any classes. Always up for a challenge. Pst if your on tanaris ;)

protonly
10-30-2008, 01:03 PM
I concur with blahism. It didn't get nerfed but you can just retard-zerg the place with a group of anyone. I've done it a few times with no dedicated healer and no cc and one time with two of the worst huntards i've ever seen. i'm still convinced they do not know what a bird is.

zerg zerg zerg....

blahism
11-03-2008, 09:52 AM
Edited for obvious reasons.

I see Heroic MgT as a test of skill, how well you can multitank and position mobs there where you want, but hey, that just might be me.

while this is true its entirely dependent on your pug not messing it up by pulling, fearing or trapping and sap'ing the wrong mobs. a leader is only as good as those in which he leads.