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View Full Version : casual or hardcore. what do they even mean?



uruloki
08-21-2008, 07:59 AM
this will be sort of a two way post.

first one is... what does it mean to be casual and what does it mean to be hardcore?

now, to the main part of this...

im in a guild just now starting sunwell. we've been together since well pre bc and have done everything with them, from snake boss to illidan. if theres anyone i want to see content with is with these people. and it IS the same people. most of the people in that raid that killed snake was also in the raid that killed illidan.

we have always teetered the line between lax and strict. just to give you an example, our raid requirement were once a month. thats about the most relaxed raid requirement ive seen, even from guilds behind us in progression.

the problem is, as theres always a problem... that the atmosphere has changed. more specifically the leadership has changed. it used to be a good thing, to go raid. it used to be a fun thing. now its neither, now, not being as good as someone else means you get replaced, or simply left behind. mind you, its not me im talking about. and the yelling and losing of temper and threats are there, looming over our less skilled players.

the purpose is now to push all the way to kil'jaeden with our best raiders in more nights than we usually raid, before the expansion hits. to get this, (and since two of our best healers have left) is to figure out what the attendance is, and if youre under 25%, then we get someone else to replace you. am i wrong to believe that this is a huge disloyalty from the guild leadership? are these things necesary to be succesful in Sunwell? theres no way at all our guild, who has progressed through all the progression steps without skipping a single one, to be forced to overlook years of friendship to see a boss dead?

EDIT: this should have gone in the guild general forums right? >.>

orcstar
08-21-2008, 08:49 AM
I think hardcore and casual are terms used in Warcraft to justify one's behaviour:
examples:"It doesn't matter if I hurt feelings, this is a hardcore guild." or "I don't have to get enchants or pots or food for raids, I'm casual." There are lots of meanings people give to these two words so in warcraft I don't think there's a good definition (for me, I don't like the terms at all.)


we have always teetered the line between lax and strict. just to give you an example, our raid requirement were once a month. thats about the most relaxed raid requirement ive seen, even from guilds behind us in progression.But there are also people who join every raid, that get their 100% attendance. You raid's succes is on those shoulders, the ones who are always there, not the people only showing up once a month.

Btw: what system decided who got into what raid? If you only show up once a month and there are 26 people online, who is sitting on the bench? Someone showing up every raid?


the problem is, as theres always a problem... that the atmosphere has changed. more specifically the leadership has changed. it used to be a good thing, to go raid. it used to be a fun thing. now its neither, now, not being as good as someone else means you get replaced, or simply left behind. mind you, its not me im talking about. and the yelling and losing of temper and threats are there, looming over our less skilled players.

the purpose is now to push all the way to kil'jaeden with our best raiders in more nights than we usually raid, before the expansion hits. to get this, (and since two of our best healers have left) is to figure out what the attendance is, and if youre under 25%, then we get someone else to replace you. am i wrong to believe that this is a huge disloyalty from the guild leadership? are these things necesary to be succesful in Sunwell? theres no way at all our guild, who has progressed through all the progression steps without skipping a single one, to be forced to overlook years of friendship to see a boss dead?It looks like the definition of successful has changed from being a " friendly guild which also raids" to "clearing Sunwell before X time has passed". Some encounters in Sunwell really require your raids best performance and there are no easy ways to outgear them. (Before Sunwell you could simplify encounters just by being in the content preceding them long enough, getting enough gear and making them a lot easier.) Sunwell is a lot less forgiving. There's less room for over performers to make up for under performers.

It's hard to give a good/bad answer, just remember, there's pitfalls in a casual guild and some people keep up with it even if they in their heart don't agree. If there's enough of them and they get in management positions, you'll see a shift.

(My brother was in a casual guild clearing karazhan. Well they were clearing Karazhan while he was leveling his mage. Two weeks after he reached 70 he had hist crafted tailoring gear and ran his first Karazhan. From then he was top dps-er. Rest of a raid was just people not taking "performing well" serious. (except the tank and maybe a healer or two.) And who didn't want to make sacrifices. And because of the guild rule: noone will be made to respec and "rolling" for raidspots even although they were friends it was a frustration for my brother. Who didn't dare bring it up because it was the way the guild did it and had always done it. But...you would not raid if you lost the roll even if your performance in the past had helped get encounters on farm.)

uruloki
08-21-2008, 09:04 AM
among the people who dont raid even 25% (theres actually less than 5 people who do, attendance checking is public so i can easily check) are people that at one time or another were an important part of the guild and very good players (a founder warlock, for example, he did wonders).

everyone in the guild has put their part in at one point or another is what i mean. not letting them raid now is a disregard of their past deeds and a disrespect to their part in our succeses from our long past. thats how i see it anyways. am i wrong to believe that?

invites are done by asking the class leaders which class goes each evening. they rotate people in and out to keep things as fair as possible.

we have always been very accepting of people's RL responsabilities. everyone works, most have husbands/wives and children, those who do not usually are studying (college, im in that group). even then, theres precious few with an attendance under the 25% (mine is 90). now, we are not.

Thist
08-22-2008, 09:35 AM
If you are gearing people who are attending only 25% of the time then it will take a lot longer to progress. People who play so seldom also probably don't have the time to get good badge gear, farm their mats etc. I think its fair to focus on the people who are putting the most time in, and to have a goal - especially since WOTLK is so near.

You and the more casual players could have a different rank and make a 10-man or even a casual 25-man and do whatever your gear allows if you just want to hang out and have fun together.

If they really needed a spot filled and I was very casual then I would actually raid with them and take no loot - it's all getting replaced with greens soon anyway, and if I liked my guildies I'd want them to have more chance of reaching their goal.

Tobius
08-25-2008, 09:29 AM
Well in answer to your first question, I dislike the labels casual and hardcore.

Casual can be used to describe the frequency of a guilds raids, it could mean that the raids themselves are casual in terms of preparation and drive, it could mean attendance requirements are low or non-existent, it could mean a whole load of things.

Similarly Hardcore can mean a whole load of different things too.

Would a guild that raid fully buffed, with 100% focus but on a laid back schedule be casual or hardcore? or both?

The amount of different types of guilds and their approach to raiding are far too varied to be summed up in terms of hardcore or casual imo.

Krashtork
09-04-2008, 10:11 AM
Would a guild that raid fully buffed, with 100% focus but on a laid back schedule be casual or hardcore? or both?
.

They would be Casu-core. There's a guild like that one my server. They're doing amazingly well for themselves at the moment.

Andenthal
09-07-2008, 10:58 PM
On my server (which has only been live since the week before TBC was released) Hardcore pretty much refers to players/guils in T6. Casual refers to guilds that are very lax. The term "friendly guild" is tossed around far too often also.

I hate the supposed distinction that you can only get to end game content by being a hardcore player and/or in a hardcore guild. And that if you are in a casual guild, it's a sin to do 25 mans and attempt to progress.

I dislike both terms because I feel niether has a place in WoW. Blizzard created the game to be more player friendly to player with limited time - so one could assume the entire game is for casual players. But at the same time, there are parts of the game that an only be completed by players with exceptional skill and loads of playtime.

My rule: Ignore if a guild calls themselves "hardcore" or "casual". Just try to find a guild that fits along with your play schedule, goals and personality. Because ultimately, I think that's what really matters to all players.

Fayre
09-08-2008, 05:22 AM
There are so many terms and so many subterms and exceptions and options, that to be honest, you should ignore the labels and just focus on what the guild really is in terms of:

- Schedule
- Preparedness / Commitment
- Attitude

And then see if that lines up with what you want.

salihe
09-12-2008, 04:11 PM
Personally, my definitions apply to individuals, and then, by extension, to guilds...since guilds are made up of individuals.

Hardcore = people who actually give a shit about progressing in-game, who come prepared, who take the time during off-raid times to farm badges, gold for supplies, etc, to better their char and overall experience, and to ensure that they get as far progressed as they can.

Casual = someone who comes on, maybe even every day, but really doesn't give two-shits about where they go in-game. Sure, they might run an instance now and again, but they never have food buffs with them, their gear is usually sub-par, badge gear is a mystery to them, and when they do manage to raid "because it's the cool thing to do" they often are the cause of wipes, or worse, they cause no impact at all.

Forgive the extreme analogy, but having casual players in hardcore guilds is like sending someone from a Special Ed school to Harvard. They're not going to learn much (because they really don't want to, or they just suck that bad that they can't learn very much), they're going to annoy their professors (raid/guild leaders), and they're pretty much just creating another useless number to boost member count.

Sorry for the bitter tone of this post. My guild is in the middle of a problem like this, and it's incredibly fucking frustrating.