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OnourisofRavencrest
08-19-2008, 08:07 PM
I have a quick question: I was told 20 Str was better than Mongoose for Off hands. Is this true?

Backstory: I'm a prot warrior using 2 x Heartless (2.44 speed after haste). I'm planning on putting Executioner on my mainhand to go along with my static 1200+ ArP. I only plan on doing this for DW Devastate dps when I'm not tanking a boss; I'm not planning on going fury anytime soon.

Other question:

The rest of my stats(all unbuffed) are as follows:

1720ish AP
104 hit (6.6%)(We use Imp FF in raids)
23% Crit
22 Expertise

How bad do these stats blow? I have a lot of gem slots to fill still just looking for what I should throw in them, was thinking strength but would like to hear the thoughts of people more familiar with DPS than I.

Ukyo
08-19-2008, 08:20 PM
Your crit is kinda low for prot dps, your hit rating is pretty good and the AP is also good. I'd say go with Mongoose to raise a little crit and find some Inscribed Pyrestone and some Bold Crimson Spinel (or the blue equivalent) as socketing goes

Tatt
08-20-2008, 06:56 AM
I would actually disagree with Ukyo, I believe that prot dw devastate dps is mroe dependant on strength than crit, because they do not get flurry from crits. If I were in your position, I would get as much strength as I could scrounge up, at your level of progression you should be able to get close to 2000.

ebs2002
08-20-2008, 08:39 AM
Agree. For prot DPS, the only time I DONT go raw strength is:
1) To gain a socket bonus that gives strength; I would use str/crit
2) To activate my 3% crit meta (str/crit and str/sta)

The reasons why AP is more important than Crit, unlike Fury wars:
1) You don't have to crit to activate any of your abilities (like flurry, rampage)
2) You use more specials than a fury warrior. Not counting Heroic Strikes, consider the following math:
- in a 60sec period you're doing 36-40 special attacks (the range is to allow for refreshing shouts/using cooldowns). Each special gets AP/14 * 2.6 (normalized) bonus damage, for a total of: 6.68*AP
- in a 60sec period, a fury warrior is whirlwinding every 9secs, and BT'ing every 6. That's 6.67 WWs getting AP/14 * 2.6 (normalized) bonus damage, plus 10 BTs getting AP*0.4 bonus damage. 6.67*AP/14*2.6 + 10*AP*0.4 = 1.23*AP + 4*AP = 5.23*AP
- A fury warrior sees 60% of his DPS coming from special attacks; a prot warrior sees more. That increases the difference even more.

Regarding the enchant, when I was prot DPS I went with 20str in my offhand for cost reasons, and I was still breaking top-10 in my guilds DPS on fights. That doesn't mean that if you have mongoose you are wrong; I haven't parsed to see if it's better or worse than 20str. Get whichever you want.


There's no reason to fill up a yellow slot with str/crit if the socket bonus is crit.

Meeks
08-21-2008, 02:15 PM
I fail to see how the number of specials changes the worth of str compared to crit? So you use more specials that increase the amount of moves ap effects? You are also increasing the amount of moves your crit can effect, and they go up together in a perfect ratio. That being said that does not answer the question either.

I am not going to come down on either side of this issue because I never really tried prot dps enough to say. Just wanted to point out that the number of special attacks should in no way effect your decision.

ebs2002
08-21-2008, 03:56 PM
Crit will affect the chance to increase all of your damage the same way.

Attack power affects your abilities different. Let X = AP/14, or the amount of dps added to your white attacks.
-White damage is X
-Devastate and whirlwind is 2.6*X.
-Bloodthirst is 5.6*X

Adding up all of the special attacks you do and their X value gives you an idea of how beneficial each point of attack power is. The higher X is, the greater benefit you get from each point of strength.

The math in the previous post shows that X is higher for prot dps than it is for fury dps, and thus a heavier weight should be put on fury when compared to crit.

You can also use similar analysis to determine how beneficial crit is, by analyzing exactly what crit does.
Every attack in every spec has a chance to crit based on your crit chance. The damage increase on each attack is higher for fury (they have impale), than it is for fury. Crits also trigger flurry, which a fury warrior has and a prot warrior doesn't. Lastly, rampage can only be refreshed on a crit, and higher crit chance means you can go longer before worrying about refreshing it.

Therefore, crit's value is higher for fury than for prot.

Hope that clears things up on why str is more important for a prot war than it is for a fury war, and why crit is more important for a fury war than a prot war. Both are important, but the amount of value you place on each stat should be different across the two specs.

Sanelora
08-21-2008, 03:58 PM
I fail to see how the number of specials changes the worth of str compared to crit? So you use more specials that increase the amount of moves ap effects? You are also increasing the amount of moves your crit can effect, and they go up together in a perfect ratio. That being said that does not answer the question either.

I am not going to come down on either side of this issue because I never really tried prot dps enough to say. Just wanted to point out that the number of special attacks should in no way effect your decision.


You gear virtually the same as fury, and as such, mongoose

ebs2002
08-21-2008, 04:10 PM
You gear virtually the same as fury, and as such, mongoose
*Sigh* no, you don't. You gear differently; you need 142hit instead of 95 for one. Strength is even more important than AP (kings and vitality, vs kings and imp bers stance). And you place more emphasis on strength/ap than you do on crit (as described above), and as such mongoose isn't nearly as "cut and dry" of a winner against potency.

Your fury set and your prot dps set should be different. If you're wearing your fury set when you're prot DPSing, and you're like me and have a few shard-saving DPS pieces in the bank, chances are there's something sitting in your bank that's better than your fury piece when you're prot dps. An example: Ancestral Ring of Conquest vs Band of Devastation -- conquest is better for prot, devastation for fury.

Okay, the difference isn't as broad as gearing between a rogue and a fury warrior, but it's still different and can be optimized differently.

Sanelora
08-22-2008, 12:01 AM
*Sigh* no, you don't. You gear differently; you need 142hit instead of 95 for one. Strength is even more important than AP (kings and vitality, vs kings and imp bers stance). And you place more emphasis on strength/ap than you do on crit (as described above), and as such mongoose isn't nearly as "cut and dry" of a winner against potency.

Your fury set and your prot dps set should be different. If you're wearing your fury set when you're prot DPSing, and you're like me and have a few shard-saving DPS pieces in the bank, chances are there's something sitting in your bank that's better than your fury piece when you're prot dps. An example: Ancestral Ring of Conquest vs Band of Devastation -- conquest is better for prot, devastation for fury.

Okay, the difference isn't as broad as gearing between a rogue and a fury warrior, but it's still different and can be optimized differently.


haha good point about hit but Strength is what a fury warriors stack anyway for their AP (unless i am completely missing something O.o)

I was mainly responding to the topic title :p

however i agree that they are subtle nuances to prot v fury. For me however, Mongoose is definitely the better enchant for prot DPS (in my opinion) however, i don't prot DPS all that often

sorry, i made a callous blanket statement. listen to the guy above, not me :)

ebs2002
08-22-2008, 10:03 AM
haha good point about hit but Strength is what a fury warriors stack anyway for their AP (unless i am completely missing something O.o)

Yes, but they also stack more crit. For instance, at higher levels, a fury warrior starts gemming str/crit equally. A prot warrior shouldn't do this, he'll get a higher return stacking straight strength across all gear levels