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View Full Version : New to Heroics... bad attempt



Jurusu
08-19-2008, 09:32 AM
Ok guys, ran Ramparts last night and sucked miserably.

My stats: 5/8/48 spec, 11964 Health, 15570 Armor, 492 Def, 17.81% Dodge, 17.15% Parry, and 15.92% Block

I ran at first with a Shadow Priest, Resto Druid (healer), and two warlocks. One of the locks had to go and we replaced him with a hunter. We wiped five times getting to the first boss. In fact, didn't make it to the boss.

I had trouble keeping aggro and holding more than two at a time. The hunter's freeze trap broke quickly, the shadow priest (he was well geared) was highly threatening, and the locks, well, really no CC and they were two hit kills.

As I am typing this I am chuckling because I know where the responses are headed.

My question is, am I geared enough for heroics? What should I look for in a group since I will have to pug this for a while?

Tatt
08-19-2008, 09:38 AM
your stats seem fine for entry level heroics. I would suggest bringing a little more reliable cc to the party to get your feet wet. Rogue sap and Mage sheep always seemed a little less tempted to fail to me than an inexperienced hunter's trap. Learn to hold threat on one mob, then 2, then 3......

Valley
08-19-2008, 09:41 AM
Druids tend to be the worst healers you can bring for starting into heroics. They have no "flash heal". Their hots take a little while to catch up if they don't pre roll them. Pre rolled hots can on a bad streak throw mobs right on the druid.

Take some cc with you, for starting heroics it can make alot of diffrence between a headache and a cake walk.

Also check to see if the trap was being broken by something other than the mob naturally breaking it. The amount of times recentally i've seen hunters scorpion sting their own trap targets recentally is very depressing.

dirt
08-19-2008, 10:38 AM
I wouldn't get to discouraged. My first time in H. Ramparts was pretty much the same. Had a inexperienced hunter and a couple of warlocks. Clothies get hit pretty hard in there if a mob slips by you or CC fails/breaks. As has already been said, you'd be better off with a mage and/or rogue, as their CC is much better IMHO. But, conversely I re-ran it several weeks later with probably the best PuG group I'd ever been in which consisted of a rouge & 2 hunters that chain trapped like I've never seen before. Since then I've found a new respect for (well played) hunters.

Ukk
08-19-2008, 10:50 AM
Yeah, H Ramps can be tough. The difficulty of the pulls is actually pretty high in my opinion - it's the bosses that give it the easy reputation.

As a beginner you really must have a mage, and is would be nice to have another reliable cc other than rogue. There are enough hounds that the rogue's cc is seriously gimped. Succubus, hunter, 2nd mage - any of these is good. A rogue is very nice to have on the 2nd boss, though, since the adds mana drain.

Also make sure you are pulling each group WAY back, especially the ones before the 1st boss. H Ramps is a great instructional tool on line of sight pulling and positioning.

jlafleur
08-19-2008, 12:39 PM
Just because Ramparts is the easiest outland normal dungeon doesn't mean that its the easiest heroic. There are some big, difficult pulls in heroic ramparts not to mention the mobs that disarm and the ones that MS. A combo of disarmed, no threat generated plus being mortal struck is a wipe at entry level. Even the non-elite dogs can tear you up once they start stacking their bleed. If you are starting out, then try heroic Underbog or Slave Pens. Maybe OT a kara run and start pilling up badge gear.

jlafleur
08-19-2008, 12:42 PM
Also your health seems low for the amount of armor you have. The rest of the stats seem fine. Is all of your gear enchanted and gemmed (most if not all for stamina)? Early on stack stamina unless you need some defense to get to uncritable (only need 485 for level 72). If you link your armory, then we can make more specific gearing suggestions.

Inaara
08-19-2008, 01:36 PM
You've recieved some spot on advice so far. If you're just starting heroics H Ramps is not the place to do it. The mobs there hit surprisingly hard and with your gear/lack of CC it will be a repair fest. Start with heroic Mech, it is imo the easiest Heroic out there with small packs that are easily CCable. Try to take as much CC as you possibly can. Good group comp for me is mage/lock/rogue or hunter. Get the CC and you'll get control of the instance.

Tatt
08-19-2008, 01:43 PM
Ugh, if you are going to mech don't leave home without a lock who knows how to enslave, those little bombing bastards hit for way too much.

Jurusu
08-19-2008, 02:24 PM
Also your health seems low for the amount of armor you have. The rest of the stats seem fine. Is all of your gear enchanted and gemmed (most if not all for stamina)? Early on stack stamina unless you need some defense to get to uncritable (only need 485 for level 72). If you link your armory, then we can make more specific gearing suggestions.

For some reason my link attempt did not work..... but I am the only toon named Jurusu in the game.

Thanks for all of the solid advice. Not so discouraged anymore.

TheMainFrame
08-19-2008, 02:42 PM
For some reason my link attempt did not work..... but I am the only toon named Jurusu in the game.

Thanks for all of the solid advice. Not so discouraged anymore.

Here is the link for your toon

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Icecrown&n=Jurusu)

Well i see some issues with your gemming that could be better served to boost your health

Ill go item by item and others please post if you disagree but i would say you need more stam gems

Helm: Felsteel Helm w/ 2 x +12 stam and 1 x +8 Strength

Id say dump that +8 strength and load up another +12 stam.. the gem bonus of +4 hit is not worth it

Wrist: Vindicators plate bracers w/ +8 hit gem

Id day dump that gem and get yet another +12 stam gem

Gloves: Felsteel Gloves w/ +12 Stam and +8 Strenght

Id say dump that gem yet again for a +12 stam gem.. the socket bonus of +3 parry is not worth missing out on so much more stam you could be getting.

Legs: Felsteel Leggings w/ +8 hit, +8 Parry, +12 Stam

Dump that parry gem immediatly.. not the best stat for your gear set at all! In my humble opinion id just cover the legs in 3 x +12 stam gems as well

As for enchants...

Chest: +15 defense

Id swap that out for the +150 health enchant

Bracers: +24 attack power

attack power ?????? Get the +12 stam enchant pronto!

Boots: +8 stam

Just a heavy Knothide Armor Kit would get you +10 stam and there is a chant out there for +12 stam

Gloves: +15 strength

Id say another heavy knothide armor kit could be in order for another +10 stam

In Conclusion:
That alone is alot of stam.. i wont bother counting it all up but its slightly over another 100 stamina you could be sporting and at your level of progression all you really need is to be uncritable and stack stam

TheMainFrame
08-19-2008, 06:03 PM
That neck is easily replaceable i wouldn't be wearing that while tanking heroics... Consider maybe the Thalodien's Charm or Natasha's Battle Chain both you can get just by doing a lvl 66 or 67 quest or even the epic badge one is cheap

Kittygrinda
08-19-2008, 09:49 PM
Ugh, if you are going to mech don't leave home without a lock who knows how to enslave, those little bombing bastards hit for way too much.


If you run around them like a moron you can tank those packs without getting too hurt. The bombs have a very small blast radius so it's relatively easy to avoid them.

IMO it's a good idea to get used to doing this as H Mech will be the one you'll want to hit daily until you get the Suneater and you won't always be able to find a willing lock now that the gatekeepers don't each drop badges.

jlafleur
08-20-2008, 05:37 AM
1. Devilshark Cape is very good and you will have uses for it for quite a while. Drop 120 armor or 12 defense on it.

2. Not sure I'd bother switching enchants and gems on your bracers. Perhaps make Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx one of your first badge purchases and drop 12 stam on it.

3. Get a Gyro-balanced Khorium Destroyer made and gem it with stam or def/stam.

4. There is a blue belt for aldor from a netherstorm quest that would be an upgrade over your beast belt.

5. Enchant your sword with at least deathfrost or +dam. The mats are cheap and it will increase your threat. I wouldn't go all out and get mongoose or executioner though.

6. You should really have imp thunderclap. It is a core talent unless you run with someone else that has it and performs it for you.

7. Unbridled wrath is not a good talent for almost anyone (prot, arms or fury).

8. You absolutely, positively must have imp shield block. It is a core tanking talent.

9. Imp defensive stance is meh at this point in your progression. Good for some high tanking and specific encounters. Probably not so great for heroics. It has its merits but I think those points are probably better spent 2/3 imp heroic strike and anger management (along with moving 3/5 UB to imp TC). Heroics are about grabbing badges fast by overgearing the encounter and pumping out massive threat as quickly as possible. Eventually you will want to do 30 minute heroic ramparts and 40 minute heroic underbogs.

Jurusu
08-20-2008, 12:20 PM
Thanks again for all of the great responses...... lots of homework.

marklar
08-25-2008, 03:38 PM
the mainframe was spot on, except he missed one thing...

Gloves: +15 strength

Id say another heavy knothide armor kit could be in order for another +10 stam
240 armor > 10 stam for gloves

go get S2 shoulders - you won't replace them for a long time. and i believe the KoT head glyph is better than what you have, too.

Bully Bull
08-26-2008, 05:21 AM
hmm your party has to know not to seed or dot everything and multi shot. focus fire is key usually, just learn the pulls. pretty much shoot a target that isn't the first kill, run up and SS or Deva your kill target, then TC, focus on your kill target and TC when ever it's up, omen is big you can watch your and their threat, just tab through the targets after a few hits on your primary target and watch your threat vs theirs, if they are close throw some devas on one, tab, deva tab, when you're back on your main target the other guys are probably caught up or close, just taunt to keep him on you. the faster dps is the quicker this goes and you generally don't have to pay attention to first kill past 50% cause they'll be dead in 2 seconds and they prob won't pull off of you till around 15% anyways if your threat is good. just go one target at a time, be mindful of other shit and make sure your party isn't retarded and multi shotting and dotting everything.

marking your targets helps you remember what needs to be hit or not aswell. like skull, X, star. I'd shoot the X run up and SS the skull, TC then hit the star with a deva, taunt skull cause he's probably about to pull to a dps then build threat on him with a quick rotation TC'n when it's up. skull should be dead, i build threat on both targets usually by a SS on X then a deva on star then just rotations on X with a cleave or two. as long as focus fire is there nothing should pull. usually a few dots can go off and still be okay but not multi shot and all of that. i generally don't allow CC in any of my groups except HMGT as i am a warrior and am cock blocked the whole time in that, go shield reflect tanking! anyways CC is no fun.

Jurusu
08-26-2008, 10:07 AM
Speaking of threat, I am looking at upgrading my sword. Until a good drop comes, I am looking at switching (Sorry, don't know how to link the item) from Inuuro's Blade (71.8 DPS, 1.4 Speed, enchanted with Deathfrost) to the Vindicator's Brand (SSO Rep item, 81.2 DPS, 2.6 speed, will enchant soon).

Is there anything to be said for weapon speed when building threat? Is DPS a better stat than weapon speed or is it all inter-related?

dirt
08-26-2008, 11:14 AM
You want to choose a faster weapon for building threat. If you look in the gear section, Berg has all the best tanking weapons broken down. But to try and summarize, the difference in a 2.6 speed weapon & 1.4 speed weapon is like 130/sec in treat generation.

So while the DPS is much better on the Vindicator's Brand, for a mitigation weapon Inuuro's is better. I'd check out his post as it will explain things in more detail.

marklar
08-26-2008, 11:24 AM
Speaking of threat, I am looking at upgrading my sword. Until a good drop comes, I am looking at switching (Sorry, don't know how to link the item) from Inuuro's Blade (71.8 DPS, 1.4 Speed, enchanted with Deathfrost) to the Vindicator's Brand (SSO Rep item, 81.2 DPS, 2.6 speed, will enchant soon).

Is there anything to be said for weapon speed when building threat? Is DPS a better stat than weapon speed or is it all inter-related?

i don't think that will be a good move. first off, with unlimited rage, a faster weapon definitely lets you build more threat simply because you can heroic strike more often (the threat from weapon damage is not dependent on speed).

and stat wise, here's a brief comparison:

+11 hit vs. -11 expertise = loss of threat
+10 DPS & +38AP vs -21 stamina & -13 defense = small threat increase, big survivability loss

i think you're better off with what you have. if you really want to increase threat, put executioner on your weapon (although i'd wait for an upgrade to do that).

Edgar
08-26-2008, 04:59 PM
I would try to get a flyer, 1 or 2 mages and run Mechanar heroic for the Sun-Eater.

Depending on the size of your server there will always be mages that want to run Mechanar as they need the rep for their spelldmg, -hit head enchant, so you should have no trouble finding 1-2 mages at any given time, maybe even advertise with the enchant when looking for mates. Having a warlock in there is also nice, warlocks need the same enchant, no big deal looking for them.

LittleMan
08-27-2008, 12:11 AM
This happens to even the most geared tanks too.
A couple of weeks ago I went into heroic ramps with the following group.
Priest-heals
Rogue
ballance druid x 2

It started out really bad. One of the druids laid into the skull right after I shot to pull and continued laying into it..Totally irked me so I let the drood die then taunted it as he bit the dirt. Then I look up to see the second drood had tabbed to the X which was sapped and was attempting to solo it I guess? I intervene to x and taunt to pick it up and the drood switches back to skull and starts unloading on it pulls agro..That time he goes down.. healer pulls threat off him immediately and bites the dirt
I stun x slam it and switch back to skull while the rogue helps minamize the incoming damage done by skull as she finishes it off and we repeat the same on the X. Only the rogue and I survived the first pull. Should have saved myself the headache and bailed right then But I didnt.

I had the droods hibernating the dogs while I tanked all the free mobs(pulls with dogs).
If they wernt hibernate pulling without warning they were splitting dps..either way I was running around back and forth constantly.
They didnt listen to anything I suggested or asked of them.. The one boomkin was trying to tell me what to pull and when..
My rogue friend was like..are you &%$#^% kidding me?

Then one of the droods decided they didnt want to wait for the boss to pat to us and then away so he pulled the group to the left with no warning of any kind... Not sure how the boss didnt end up following... pure luck because he was just that close. Healer wasnt even finished drinking yet.

We finished the run with only the rogue and I managing to escape a death.. The healer died on first pull but the 2 droods were dying every single pull. Healer got to where they refuse to rez them so they ahd to run back.
I've done heroic ramps plenty of times with little and even no cc and it usually goes quite quick and smooth.. but people must play by the rules or things get messy... Average run for me with little to no CC 40-50 minutes That one took 1.5 hours. Let the tank pull... let the tank establish aggro.. watch their threat and keep their mouths shut if all they have to contribute is inaccurate information or opinions.

It gets better for sure... but you will still have some crappy runs from time to time.. You can have a heroic run done in 45-60 minutes with no deaths one day and the very next day have the same run last 2 hours and be a wipe fest.. Pugging is rough but it teaches you alot. Don't let it discourage you.. consider it a growing pain. If nothing else it thickens your skin and teaches you patience.. If you go further with it youre going to gain a level of enviromental awareness, lightening fast reaction time, and the ability to adjust to even the most crappy groups to help make them more sucessful. Stuff that is hard to learn without being in an enviroment where you have to.

Don't let this get to you.