PDA

View Full Version : WotLK -- What Is Fun?



Ciderhelm
08-15-2008, 12:19 AM
There's been discussion on the Beta forums that tanking classes are going to be made more fun. It sounds like that process is ongoing and the ideas aren't set in stone, so let's help. I'll keep this news at the top over the weekend and perhaps into early next week.

Concept
State one or more thoughts on what you've enjoyed about tanking as well as ideas to make tanking more fun for your class. Be creative.

Rules


The assumption is that Blizzard is trying to attract new players to tanking who might otherwise not be interested. Responses should be conducive to bringing new players into the tanking scene for each class.
Responses should be class specific to the character you've invested in the most. This is flexible, but avoid the "I want X because another class has X."
No rebuttals. You can bounce off other people's ideas, but this is not a debate thread.



I'll go ahead and start with thoughts I've had and expressed in the past. Each of mine is more focused on Protection Warriors.

Health Regeneration (Leveling/Grinding/Dailies)
Health regeneration opens up several options, tactics, and "I can't believe I lived through that" experiences that aren't available when health is just being chipped away; it also reduces downtime the 10+ second downtimes that are common and dreadfully boring when leveling/grinding on mobs that use elemental damage.

Lifegiving Gem was a class defining trinket. Leveling again as Protection, Spyglass of the Hidden Fleet is constantly on cooldown for me. These have only been available to raiding Warriors.

Ranged Attacks
Decapitator and Rocket Launcher are fun. Decapitator was responsible for many of the original Heroic Shattered Halls timed runs, due to the precision and range. These have been only available to raiding or engineering Warriors.

I find myself using a gun nearly every time I'm snared/rooted or otherwise can't catch up to the mob. I also do this when I can't or shouldn't engage a mob due to other responsibilities or strategy.

Big Shield Slams...
...are really fun.

Alent
08-15-2008, 02:13 AM
Hmm... this presents a dilemma - I love my Paladin, but I've invested over a year of sweat and blood in my Druid and enjoy tanking both. I guess I'll go with both. :p


Druid

Sheer Endurance.

Some of my fondest memories of ZA were when shit hit the fan. I recall one Nalorakk kill where the Paladin tank had an epic string of taunt resists and I tanked almost the entire fight myself. Timing out my badge of tenacity and pocketwatch to reduce the chance of bleeds hitting, and using my enemy swing timer to pop Barkskin inbetween swings when I did get bled, I was able to hold it together long enough for the raid to kill Nalorakk. The paladin was able to land a taunt right before I died going into troll phase, and held Nalorakk for the last 8%.

Months later, when I started approaching the 80K effective health mark, I ended up solo tanking Halazzi when my paladin partner died to a pair of saber lashes. Blew the pug's mind. I simply love the ability to endure massive amounts of punishment. As the man in the glowing box once said... "Takes a Lickin', and keeps on tickin'."

Barkskin + Hurricane pulling

When I started tanking heroics, I began thinking about how AoE threat worked. I realized as I pushed on I would never be able to consecrate, but I realized the power of hitting every mob in the pull. This evolved into using Barkskin and hurricane to pull with, giving me a solid 500~600 threat on pull to every mob in the pull. It saves healers from pulling early, and it makes it possible for me to do Heroic shattered halls speed runs very smoothly.

Using Rebirth while tanking

One of the most enjoyable and worst moments in my tanking life was when the paladin tanking Halazzi with me died in the first 10% of the fight. Not wanting to tank the fight myself, at that moment I didn't realize I could, I blew trinkets and let trinkets carry me into the split, picked up the Lynx, told the DPS to ease off a bit, and asked for a PW:S as I was about to B.rez the paladin. The raid let out a collective gasp of air as I cast barkskin to exit bear form, immediately rebirthed the paladin and went back to bear, and resumed tanking as normal.

I guess to sum it up, what I enjoy most about my druid is pushing the envelope. Trying to take the tools I have and apply them intelligently to a problem. I feel my hands are tied as a druid tank, despite being such a diverse hybrid, I can't use the majority of my tools in combat at all. In many ways I feel I'm defined by what I can't do, and when I overcome a barrier, it's the greatest feeling in the world.

Something that would just make the character more enjoyable... My gear is lacking in the stats that matter to me as a tank. Almost all of the frustration I've gone through with my character is that whoever itemized my class seems to think that more armor and raw stats are the answer to everything. I haven't been crit immune through defense rating since I upgraded to T4, there is no way to hit cap with druid tank gear period, and hitting expertise cap with tank gear is only possible at the end of sunwell. These are powerful threat stats that are just not readily accessible to me as a druid tank and it disappoints me. I can gain access to excellently itemized tank gear - if I PVP. S3 and S4 had near perfect stat distributions, albeit if a little low on armor.

To close Druid off...
Feral Charge...
... is AWESOME.


Paladin
Salvaging bad pulls with a well placed consecrate.

It's not as easy as it looks, you've accidentally pulled two groups and one mob makes a beeline for your healer. You aim a taunt over, Drop consecrate, judge righteousness on skull, reseal and start moving through and smacking mobs you think you're about to lose, struggling to keep everything infront of you so you can block it. A hairy pull later you're on top, and rolling on that BoE green that nobody wants.

Petrified Lichen Guard

What paladin doesn't love this shield? It made the levelling experience enjoyable, it is the greatest enemy of Illidan's Demon hunter Trainees, bane of melee trash from Nagrand's ogres to Black morass' crockolisks alike.

Pulling tools

When I got my Linken's Boomerang, and later when I made my Goblin Rocket Launcher, I rejoiced. They were the pulling tools I never had. Avenger's Shield is supposed to be one but it fails miserably due to the snare and range issues. (Raid bosses aggro before you get close enough to use it) Of all the obstacles a tank has to overcome, inability to pull should not be one of them. Since replacing both trinkets with vital avoidance trinkets, I find it easier to run in, consecrate, Judge skull, and LoS the entire pull to a nice spot rather than attempt avenger's shield.

Shield Block period

Discovering the fun things I could do with Shield Block Value was like a whole new world unfolding before my eyes. Here was a mitigation stat I'd never experienced and was simply awestruck by. Having new tools at my disposal was great.

All in all, I am highly satisfied with my paladin, but this was not always the case. For a very long time I did not understand seals and judgments, creating a strong... lack of aggro on the current kill target. As I began to understand judgments, my single target threat rose and I eventually became a threat machine. It was a hard road, but a satisfying one to learn in the end. Today I prefer my paladin and plan on making it my main going into Wrath.

Something that I feel detracts from the class for me is actually the lack of a movement skill. One of my favorite parts of Diablo 2 was my Chargadin, Charge was a class defining skill that is seemingly absent even though all the other elements are present or being added (Smite = Righteous Shield Slam. There was an AoE hammer move which admittedly behaved and looked slightly different. Exorcism, elemental resist auras, etc.)

On the upside, and I apologize if this isn't entirely appropriate to say, I do love the fact that unlike my druid, My paladin has tanking gear with actual logical tank stats. I can optimize my gear for any number of mitigation, avoidance or threat configurations. It just feels good to have gear designed for all facets tanking.

To Close Paladin off...
Hammer of Wrath Crits...
... are extremely gratifying :D

Leytur
08-15-2008, 04:23 AM
I like tanking the most because not everyone can do it well.

Certain classes are considered "EZ mode." What I find funny is one of those classes is considered a hunter yet the moniker "huntard" as if hunters sucked.

So each class has a certain "EZ Coefficient." Some classes (mage) have a highe EZQ than others (aff lock maybe? I dunno). But it seems that all three tanking classes have a pretty low EZQ. Even Paladins.

So while I like the idea of making tanking more fun, I also hope they don't dumb it down to the point where a Tenacity pet could do it.

Grulgor
08-15-2008, 04:24 AM
I guess I have only 1 major problem with tanking at the moment as a prot warrior and that's targetting mobs at the beginning of a fight to slap devestates on a few mobs...it's a real pain in the arse and I doubt the cone Aoe we're getting isn't going to change the fact we need to switch between targets like this.

I tried the shift+tab to target the last enemy so I could at least definitely target my 2nd target after slamming the main target but for some reason it ends up targetting a different mob. Occassionally when I've had a mob in front of me in perfect LoS and gone for the tab button it has targetted something across the room in a different group. If they popped in a targetting macro that enables us to target the raid icons that would be REALLY useful for me. I mean, I don't know if it's possible at the moment, but I would love it.

Something else I would like would be a similar ability to misdirect that I could use that causes high threat with my initial ranged pull so I could immediately concentrate on getting aggro on the group instead of shield slamming the mob then attempting to target other mobs. This links in with the above problem I'm having though.

But fun, to be honest, I enjoy tanking as it is-I'm the guy that controls the pace of an instance and keeps me m8s safe (usually :P). Although I would be happy to see the cone Aoe and thunderclap to have the capacity to hold aggro over my healer for the entire fight.

Armageddn
08-15-2008, 04:38 AM
My main toon is a warrior,

Well first of all i think every one could agree on that big numbers are fun :)

Spell Block
I'd like to have some block mechanic that works on spells and magic attacks

Throw Shield
I'd really like to throw my shield at someone and stun him just like the mobbs in BT :D

dotOrion
08-15-2008, 04:50 AM
Druid-biased post as that's my main :p

Big numbers
People always say it's DPS that is addicted to big numbers, I say tanks (and especially druid tanks) are also surrounded by big numbers. You're sitting there at ~20K health, ~35K armor, you're taking enormous hits from bosses, and it still takes a few of them before you go down. But thanks to the big healing numbers flying around you, you stay alive. It's a rush, a feeling of immortality.

Group synergy
A tanks best friend is his healer. A healers best friend is his tank.
Assuming decent healing, you are keeping alive the rest of the party as much as the healer is, it's just a lot less obvious.

If you cyclone an enemy tank on your general in Alterac Valley, the enemy raid will know very soon just how much safety he was offering them as your general wipes the floor with them.

Role switching
As a feral druid, on trash I am usually the tank on the first kill target, simply because I can then help DPS on the second kill target as soon as mine is dead, and help out with innervates, battlerezzes, etc.

Related to this, during leveling and grinding I am a rogue. I do not have trouble bringing in money/doing my dailies. Leveling was fun and fast.

I've always 'sold' the druid class like this to my guildies: if you wanna try a tank, roll a druid, level like a rogue and tank like a warrior in endgame.

Lore
08-15-2008, 06:31 AM
Blizzard already did everything I wanted to make the class more fun :P

Stramash
08-15-2008, 06:32 AM
As a Warrior:

Blowing all your cooldowns
Done reactively there's nothing like the adrenaline rush from popping everything you have to survive a healer death, D/C, mistake etc. Dying seconds after a boss is downed because last stand just wore off is oddly gratifying.

On the proactive side of cooldown usage I get a lot of satisfaction from using cooldowns on dodge trinklets, shield wall, last stand etc agressively to help my healers through the rough part of an encounter. Taking damage is the passive side of taking, these abilities make it more participative.

So more short term mitigation/avoidance boosts please. Useful for class 'flavour' too IMO, I'd be happy with less baseline mitigation than another class (Druids spring to mind) if I was able to ramp it way up when needed, as long as the two average out about the same and stay balanced.

Stance dancing
"If you can keep your head when all others about you are losing theirs.."
I love having to stay on my toes and stance dancing is always a fun mechanic for that. Am guessing there'll still be plenty fears in the game.

Add more encounters that benefit from Defensive>Battle>Defensive stance shifts maybe? With the shorter cooldown I can see Retaliation being useful as a aoe threat spike, make it against groups that hit hard enough and you'll need to be quick to get back onto defence.

Stuns
Dazing those Amanshi Scout pats that wander round the corner is always fun, as is KO'ing that mob that was about to have a go at the overeager mage. Less stun-immune trash please.

Being in the eye of the hurricane
More esoteric and similar to my first point but we all love being right at the heart of the encounter and consequently being able to swing the fight in the raids favour.

Perhaps more talents that give temporary buffs might also add more depth to the fight, playing to that situational awareness; Say you fold Critical Block into Sword and Board, so the proc is a boost to SBV, but applies only to the next ability used. Do you hit Shield Slam for the threat or Shield Block for the mitigation? Think quick.

Mixed blessing debuffs could also add to the encounter here; Say you have a mocking blow type shout (or roar, judgement) that boosts raid DPS but enrages the mob and has a taunt element onto you? Wipe-or-win buttons sound odd but really aren't that different from Shield Wall et al, they'd have to be used at just the right moment.

Gomer
08-15-2008, 07:11 AM
SUNDERING CLEAVE.

Daddy wants a low damage, high threat move that is accessible from DS. I want to hit 3-4 mobs. And I want them to stick to me, not like a consecrate but dang close. This frontal AOE crap, positioning nightmare. I want a sundering WW in DS. :D

Thorik
08-15-2008, 07:25 AM
To me, whatís fun is a tanking an encounter cleanly when itís considered to be difficult; Especially when Iím doing things that arenít considered my strong suit. I absolutely love doing Hyjal when we donít have as many tanks as usual. I get to practice my multi-tanking and run around like a madman. One of my fondest memories from way back was on one of my guildís first majordomo kills, where other tanks went down, and I picked up their adds, somehow managing to stay alive.

Whatís fun is huge numbersÖ on block value. Iím constantly amused by mobs hitting me when Iím using block value gear and getting things in my combat log along the lines of: X hits you for 57 (925 blocked).

Whatís fun is scrolling combat text during avoidance streaks. I canít help but chuckle when I have several mobs on me or a fast attacking boss, and I see text pop up rapidly along the lines of: parry, dodge, miss, dodge, dodge, miss. So long as it doesnít create rage starvation anywayÖ

What would I like to see added? Sundering Cleave is a pretty slick idea, but what Iíve been tossing around in my head is an ability on a cooldown of 5-6 minutes that makes all attacks apply sunder for the next 10 seconds or so. That way you donít have to worry about early sunders on boss fights. :)Perhaps something to replace vigilance?

SuperFlounder
08-15-2008, 07:38 AM
Confirmation that its actually fun is probably just about the best news I've heard all day.

No warrior has mentioned Shockwaves. Is it useful in 5 mans for the initial pull or does it just lead to rage starvation and dps dying?

We've been asking for something like sundering cleave for a while, and Blizzard most likely won't add such a simple mechanic they've resisted adding to warriors for 3 years at this point wrath imo.

djiss
08-15-2008, 07:43 AM
I'm sure everyone here saw 300 and everyone remind this scene...
YouTube - 300 Shield Bash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FedyVShEavM)

That's what I want. If I have only 1 thing to get, it's this.

Ok, Shield Slam is now trainable. But Prot war should have something specific to their spec to improve this move. A talent that increase the SS dmg by x% and add a % chance to knock back your opponent (knockback effect adding threat so a chance to do more threat with it) would be awesome.

Improved Spell Reflect. With a 15 rages cost, let the duration like it is, decrease to cooldown a little and add 1-2 charges.

SuperFlounder
08-15-2008, 08:09 AM
Whoops, I posted like, not what I wanted to actually post. Probably is best to read what you copy and paste first, my bad.

Affirmation that warrior tanking is fun always great to hear. It's always good knowing you aren't the crazy one.

In terms of what's fun? I love Magister's Terrace personally, its really the best instance in my opinion, and it should be considered the standard of quality and variety in wrath.

I don't like it when all fights are me watching my health and threat meter. I like tanking mechanics but even moreso when things are varied enough to leave fights where its not all tank and spank. In fact, I think they need more fights that don't require a tank or tanking is minimized, like Kael's second half, or the summer festival boss. At the same time when you are tanking its a place where you find ample room to use all your abilities and cooldowns. I've done it on heroic with no cc before with only one wipe on the pvp boss. Very good times.

However, at the same time, I always do it with friends who respected that I need to get spell reflects off, etc. Challenging tanking is only fun if you know your other teams mates are equally focused and trustworthy Getting the boss down after 5 wipes will only feel worth it if you trust everyone was doing their best. To bring it back to making it fun in wrath, not sure if I'd love Magister's on Heroic with a pug, I've never tried and never will. It seems, however, that's the standard of fun they're trying to get. That's a very high standard.

Ashiva
08-15-2008, 08:37 AM
I would have to say my personal favorite at this point to me was being in a Kael fight in Magister's terrace where I was only needed for half the fight, then being the last man standing during one of his stunned moments before he did a gravity flux again and wailing on him (And as he comes out of his stun he does hit you once or twice before doing the next gravity flux) and getting a crit shield slam the moment he smacks you, so he dies, then you die. Wonderful feeling.

From a warrior standpoint tanking, I think Shield slam could be improved to do more damage, giving a protection tank an ability to produce some more threat damage based on DPS, like Druid's have with their DPS based threat generation. I've seen Druid tanks hold their mob from damage alone, which is a great thing when you have high melee DPS from Rogues and RiP's, and an enhance shammy or two in the mix.

Maybe they could make cleave do a high amount of threat, but instead of two, maybe increase the amount of mobs to 3 or 4, but do slightly less damage between the three/four.

Another issue I find is both the fact we have no raid wide type buffs we can give out, and the length of the buffs we do have don't seem to give any real benefit and usually end up wasting precious rage when we have to constantly reapply during a 10min + fight. It would be nice to have a sort of raid wide shout/buff we could give that might increase damage or crit chance, and/or as well increasing the length to the buff(s) to a more acceptable raiding lvl (Even talented, the shouts we have don't last nearly as long as one would like) Maybe increase the length to say, 8 minutes without talent points, that way with talent points you could say push it close to a Blessing of Kings or Gift of the Wild timers.

What's fun? being on Rage Winterchill the very first time setting foot in the instance to Hyjal and bringing him from 50% to 47% by yourself (My healers and DPS had died on death and decay) :D
Think we didn't do too bad with it being the very first time for 22-23 people in the raid seeing him on their mains.

veneretio
08-15-2008, 08:55 AM
Ok, Shield Slam is now trainable. But Prot war should have something specific to their spec to improve this move. A talent that increase the SS dmg by x% and add a % chance to knock back your opponent (knockback effect adding threat so a chance to do more threat with it) would be awesome.

Check out the new Improved Shield Bash. 10% more Shield Slam damage.

As to MgT, it's probably one of the least fun instances they've designed when it first came out thanks entirely to the glaive knockdown which thankfully they changed. (making the place reasonably enjoyable) That being said, Kael can be tanked by a Rogue (and not a well geared one I might add) from start to finish. I hardly consider that the gold standard of tank friendly boss.

The key to Warrior fun is less micromanaging, less downtime and more mobility. I think bloodbath and shockwave are great steps in the right direction to multi-target tanking and I'm even looking forward to less downtime thanks to being able to stunlock a large number of adds while leveling. (bloodbath + piercing howl is enticing) I'm even exciting about Safeguard allowing us to get out of snares. Overall, I think Blizzard has already taken massive steps towards making Warriors a whole lot more fun, but I'm definitely not opposed to further steps taken to make it even more fun :D

Sangi
08-15-2008, 08:55 AM
Shield Reflect

Running right in front of the waves of undead in hyjal, popping a shield reflect and watching 6 shadow bolts fly in and then back to the casts. Or standing back fighting a group in a 5 man while a caster throws bolts at you while you reflect them back at him/her/it.

Organized Chaos

When I was running with DPS that seriously out geared me or accidentally pulling that second group of trash in BT. It is a lot more fun when things go wrong then when they go right. Knowing that you couldn't lock down the pull situation but merely had to contain and control it until it was manageable. Challenging shouts, Stuns fears, taunts, mocking blows, intervenes to get to where your going (and possibly save that DPSer), all the little tools that are there to make a crazy situation a little less hectic and get it under control.

Crazy Burst Threat

A huge shield block set and giant numbers for threat. That warlock riding you on threat all night with his 7K chain instant crits? Drop the shield slam set on and watch him and you open up. Kicking up a ton of front loaded threat so the DPS can go all out and hearing the druid tank say he actually has to work to keep up with you on threat now.

Last Man Standing

Every thing has gone wrong on the fight. People are dying right and left due to AoE or standing in the fire. Your healers are gone. Your DPS is gone. But the boss is at 1% and if you can just find it in you to stay up a little bit longer you can down him and call it a night. Throw up shield wall and last stand jump into berserker stance pop rage and start spamming execute. Then watch boss die just as shield wall runs out.

Lego
08-15-2008, 08:55 AM
I never really experienced much raid content but do a lot of 5 mans and heroics and the occasional Karazan when friends in other guilds need a tank. But I can't count on how many times in a 5 man I would be last man standing when a mob is at 20% or 10% or lower on a pull whether it would be just a crazy pull or a boss mob and your burn all your cool downs, trinkets, running around like a chicken with your head cut off, or whatever and then died when it was down to like 1% or 2% it would have been kind of fun to carry the day. I think it would be kind of fun to see an increase in damage and defense each time a party member dies maybe increase your size a little bit each time as well for a visual intimidation effect, kind of like in the movies when the heroes friends or what not die and he goes on a rampage killing EVERYTHING while looking bigger than life to the enemy lol. Heck even if I died without killing the last mob the fun of it would be hella cool. No idea what I would call it as I am not very eloquent with words.

Nez
08-15-2008, 09:29 AM
II play a Warrior so these are things for us!

I think that having a charging "knock down" move would be fun as heck and sweet for pulling.
I want a whirlwind move that hits with your shield as well as your main hand. :D
Thunder Clap should hit everything in its radius. That would be really really fun.
And to be able to throw your main hand weapon would totally rock!
Best of all would be to have finishing moves like mortal combat!
:D

Kavtor
08-15-2008, 09:30 AM
A few things that I haven't seen mentioned.

Actually being able to kill elite mobs.
In vanilla wow, and many of the TBC group quest mobs, I'm sure most of us can remember various classes having enough tricks to be able to take down an elite mob by themselves. Not quickly, and by using every CD they had, and lots of practice, but still possible. Warriors tended to get smashed. But with excessive block value, we could join in the fun as well.
Being able to farm the elite trees in Skettis is pretty fun, even though they don't hit hard at all. Similarily, solo tanking Phase 1 RoS. Unfortunately, the changes to warrior block mechanics will make that quite a bit more difficult. It's always seemed to me that the warrior class design has been as a less effective solo class, and relatively more effective group class. Even though 95% of my play time is raiding, I think it would be fun to see a better balance in warrior solo play, relative to the crazy things druids and paladins can pull off.

In addition to excessive levels of block value, excessive levels of avoidance can be fun too. ( and clearly broken ) But being able to pop trinkets and avoidance tank a fel raged Gurtogg after he's blown up his first target is pretty cool. I think I'm going to miss my Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch even more than I did Lifegiving Gem as the ratings devalue the item.

Being able to 'tank' dungeon trash pulls by controlling the mobs, rather than generating threat on them is fun. Using stuns, slows, taunts, fears, intervene, disarms, etc to control the mobs in the pull and their damage output, rather than tanking them traditionally.

Aaesop
08-15-2008, 09:58 AM
On bloodboil I was the only tank alive and under 35% health. Arcing Smash hits you for 6k.. It was amazing and made me forever happy that I keep the talent. While my raid group didn't down him, I stayed there strong for a good extra minute. Even yelling at someone who peeled off to reset it "Get the F**k back here, nobody called for a wipe!"

I already felt at home with warrior tanks and even moreso that night but WOTLK brings my chair closer to that table. I don't want to be the only choice to tank a boss, but I do want it to be a damn hard decision when looking at Dreador and myself. Maybe tanking that boss is going to come down to /roll lol.

Rotation: lol wut I'm gonna have a rotation thats going to include more than consecrate, a seal/judgement and consecrate? Thank you blizzard.

Damage:Not exactly Paladin specific but it was alway a pain doing those dailies out at Quel'danas alone. Either getting jumped by a zerging crew or jus the sheer amount of time it always took to get them done. I'm glad to see I won't be spending insane amounts of time with dailies that take my rogue half of the time.

For veterans it's a welcome change, for people that were always looking in the window at us, it might give them that push to come in and become a tank.

SuperFlounder
08-15-2008, 10:04 AM
I've seen rogues tank Kael in heroic MgT as well but not rogues that are equivalent to the encounter. Outgearing something will always lead to that kind of stuff. Rogues can tank Mother, its a plain balancing issue with the class that isn't game breaking enough to fix, or atleast Blizzard doesn't think so. I will admit the stun needed to be fixed, that was just something I took as the challenge of the instance. The difficulty in pulling fewer mana leechers so my group doesn't wipe was always more of a hindrance to me, frankly. I don't really understand how warriors or druids were expected to tank those. I'd spend 2 minutes standing there waiting for exactly the right moment to pull only 1 or 2 groups at a time.

In general tools are fun, liabilities aren't. Shield block as it is now is a liability. Not keeping it up will directly cause you to risk huge amounts of spike. The new changes make it a tool. Thus huge improvement.. well, after the buff huge improvement.

suesse_llane
08-15-2008, 10:31 AM
Spell reflect - amazingly fun mechanic introduced in tbc

Non-tanking Warrior Prot DPS - After devastate was introduced, prot dps seems to be in a very good place. Less powerful than fury/arms but not so much so to seem useless. True min-maxing will replace the prot dps, but for the majority of players, they have a tanking character who can pick up the dps roll when needed. This makes raiding farmed content less annoying (when you don't have to tank), doing dailys less annoying, and allows you to do some basic pvp if you feel the urge without spending 100g. Feral druids and deathknights (from what I've heard) will also have this ability; however, protection paladins still seem to be lacking here. Over the last year, they've worked on helping healing classes do this with +healing->+dmg changes, so I assume protection will get some help here. Basic deal, you can't make a tank character only playable in pve groups if you want every character to have a full experience of the game (I think blizzard wants this).

Random crap is not fun, but they're working on it.
Miss: +hit is on a lot of tanking gear (raid tbc gear)
Parry/Dodge: Expertise on tanking gear (high level raid tbc)
Parry Haste: Removed for some insane bosses
Crushing Blow: Removed for most high level bosses and removed entirely in wotlk
Taunt Resist: Half-assed fix with melee +hit (still can't get capped though) -- also physical school vulnerability with Brutallus

Tanks who randomly die or lose aggro are very annoying to the whole group, hopefully this will be fixed which will really help new tanks learning to tank without giving up.

Along the lines of the Sporeggar shield, I sometimes use a engineering crafted shield which is similar, but has a really badass graphic and scales much better with higher numbers of mobs than the Sporeggar shield. It's very fun... but.. The fact that warriors would use something like these crappy shields when we have sweet epics really drives home the fact that warriors need something to allow them to hold aggro on 5+ mobs (not over aoe, but over healing aggro).

Urhan
08-15-2008, 10:32 AM
Yeah, make tanking more fun - but it should be the kind of fun that'll appeal to people who'll like the tank's role, i.e. a lot of responsibility. So give them "command"-type abilities. Stuff that, applied in the right situation, can make a difference in a fight by preventing what otherwise would be a wipe. A raid- or group-wide fear break, for example (on a long enough cooldown that it can't be used multiple times in a fight.) Or a magnetic pull-type ability like the DK's have, only usable on friendly players - if someone's standing in the fire or about to aggro a mob, yank them back to safety. This sort of thing would also lower the frustration factor of grouping with newer players - you can fix some of their mistakes without it costing you a repair bill.

Ghreystar
08-15-2008, 11:17 AM
i dont personally think tanking is meant for the masses, nor should it be. the best part of being a tank is knowing you control the fight, that you are the first one into battle, and that you alone keep all the shit in line. its also the satisfaction of knowing you are badass enough to be a main tank. i live to be upfront in the chaos... right out there on the frontline. knowing in the back of my head that when i screw up, 24 people die. i like the responsibilty, and i feed on combat. to me not raiding is wasting time.

ever wonder why your dps'ers die first? simple - they are bored. a trained monkey can dps. thats what makes tanks special. not everyone can do it and not everyone should.

spell reflect is just good fun. holding aggro on three mobs in hyjal, whilst only beating on one is laughable. crit shield slams are the second best. i dont know what i like better, the animation of the tauren backhanding mob face, or that big 'ol number popping out of their head.

i like the ideas of the whirlwind shield/mainhand combo. i also would like to see shield slam offer a chance to stun or knock back. however something that offers better aoe tps would certainly be appreciated.

Hypatia
08-15-2008, 11:30 AM
I'd have to say that the two most fun things that are actually part of tanking are:

Being one of the last people standing after things have gone wrong, and just holding on and holding on and holding on until it's over. On the one hand, that kind of thing only really happens when things go wrong. On the other hand... it really gives the feeling of "Oh god... time to rest". I have this mental image of planting my shield in the ground, planting my ass on it, and breaking out a canteen to cool off while the healers go scrape everybody else up off the floor.

That's a GOOD feeling.

The other really good feeling is saving people from things, including themselves. Intervene was an awesome new ability in BC, because it gave us a way to really quickly get to the person who pulled aggro and *do* something about it. It's most satisfying when you've just had the most squishy person in your five-man pull aggro on something they really shouldn't have (big melee type), and you intervene to them and *taunt on the way past*. Hah! Take that, you brute!


In general, I think the important part is: anything that makes you feel like a hero. A good tank takes pride in holding aggro and taking little damage while being beat down. But it's not heroic. It's the bad times, and the ability to survive them, that makes tanking the best. When the healer goes down and you just barely manage to both hold aggro and avoid dying long enough for the party DPS to finish everything off. When all of the DPS goes down, and you and the healer bully through the grueling effort to finish the enemy off. Standing at a flag in Arathi Basin with five guys beating on you for thirty seconds asking themselves "Why won't this guy DIE!?!"


These disasters are the golden moments that invoke a visceral response. Technical tanking (maxing TPS, avoiding bad stuff, etc.) is enjoyable... technically. But that adrenaline rush and knowing that people are depending on you to survive. That's something else.

Ghladum
08-15-2008, 11:37 AM
Minor self-healing

I agree whole-fartedly with Cider's wish for a small but noticeable HoT or health regen mechanic.

Last Man Standing

The idea of getting stronger as your teammates die is nothing new: plenty of mobs enrage after you kill one of their brethren. Having an enrage ability that decreases damage taken and increases damage output (nothing too, too huge - say 10/20/30% as 1/2/3 of your party members die) would be a huge blast. It might also make for a decent Protection-tree PVP ability.

Or better yet, the mechanic could open up Execute to be able to be used in Defensive stance (instead of the 30% dmg increase outright) - if you had a trinket, pot or ability ready to be used, tanks could really save the day by being able to solo the last 3-4% of a dungeon boss or that last quarter-percent of that raid boss instead of having those hilarious 1% wipes.

Snap Aggro on Pulls

It is fun and satisfying to tank 5-7 adds with my limited resources (Tclap + Demo Shout! Yeah!), but one of the things that could easily separate good tanks from bad, would be to finally give Warriors an ability that establishes more aggro than the healers on every mob in a large pull. Let's say a 1 min cooldown so it's not spammable (used once per pull), 500 dmg attack that is AoE based and not limited in number. With this tool, on most pulls, you're able to reign in and get the first 5-10 seconds of attention from the mobs. But if you're not a good, attentive tank (or your DPS is mentally challenged) this aggro won't hold them forever - a good tank will continue to mouseover-Sunder or whatever your preferred multimob tanking strat is.

Frankly, I'm not to enthused with Tclap getting "buffed" to handle 5 mobs - it still seems like the above idea would be useful: the Warrior can handle AoE mob pulls just like the Paladin can, with one difference: the DPS must still use single-target DPS - if they AoE crazily, the warrior still won't be able to hold threat above them - which is fine... it gives Warrior vs. Pally tanking "flavor" while retaining relative equality.

This would address the main headache with Warrior multimob tanking - initial aggro - making it more fun.

Aggro from damage instead of Threat-modifiers

Simple enough. Other tanking classes have it, I'd love to have it, and it solves some of the Warrior's illogical weaknesses. I don't have a Beta key, but from what my buddies are telling me, this has been implemented in Wrath. Woohoo!

Miscellaneous

(Warning! Off-topic!)

Frankly, I'm not enthused for Blizzard's "We want to make tanking more fun." appeal in the last week. As others have pointed out (although this website in particular will have a biased group selection) tanking is already fun.

For us, it's fun because it's difficult. Because there's responsibility. Because we have to think (and with 39 intelligence, this is quite difficult!) and react, and adjust, and on and on and on. We are the alpha-types, who desire control.

"Let's make tanking more fun." is Blizzard-speak for "Let's get more people tanking." Given the obvious fact that Blizzard can't change people's personality, only game mechanics, this is bound to mean that Blizzard is actually saying "Let's make tanking mechanics easier."

Because I guarantee that THAT is the only way they'll get more tanks. So what if you come up with "fun" abilities and mechanics? If there's still the pressure, the responsibility, the smartness that is required - what have you really changed? But if you take away the requirement for thoughtful, smart and eloquent tanking... ah... now we have plenty of tanks that can step up and keep up aggro.

It's a fine line between an overpowered, EZ tank, and a tank that requires cunning and skill to excel, but I hope they find that line instead of "making it fun" for any random yackoff.

bludwork
08-15-2008, 11:42 AM
Interesting question. I thought about it for a bit and there's nothing I can say about tanking that it fun for me. It's simply a means to an end.

Killing hard bosses is a lot of fun, hard bosses like archimonde, vashj and illidan. Tanking allows me to exert the maximum influence on acheiving that goal, perhaps implicitly implying you don't have much influence on the battle as a healer or dps.

Jasra
08-15-2008, 11:48 AM
There are many different ways to have fun, but I have to say this is the big one for me:

Fun is learning a new trick (especially by thinking out of the box), and being noticeably better because of it. It's like leveling the player instead of the character.

Heartwood
08-15-2008, 12:25 PM
From a Prot War perspective, one of the 'unfun' sides of tanking to-date is that it can be *exhausting!* Depending on what you're tanking mind you. Multi-mob tanking has generally been the worst. Prot War tanking of H SH has always been the worst instance for leaving me simply exhausted by the end. Blizzard seems to have addressed this issue in WotLK, so it may be a moot point.

Graphically, tanking for Prot Wars is pretty boring business. No flashy lightening bolts, no pulsing consecrates, just whacka-whacka with the sword, and thunka-thunka with the shield. Our new AoE (Shockwave) should be a little more glittery and interesting to watch. In general, Prot Wars could use a little more graphical 'glitter' to make the game more interesting to watch as we play.

Grinding/leveling has traditionally been very slow. I leveled to 70 as Prot spec, just to *really* get to understand it. I'd watch mages kill 2-3 mobs in the time it took me to slowly chop down one, which was disheartening and meant the reward of leveling or completing quests was much slower. Again, it looks like WotLK may have addressed this issue. I'm not in beta, so I can't say for certain. Dealing with multiple mobs at once, without a lot of mental exhaustion, should make Prot Wars much more interesting to play.

-Heart

Mangea
08-15-2008, 12:36 PM
A couple of points I'd like to touch on are group synergy and, as the topic says, sheer fun.

Something that might help with synergy could be something akin to sharing the received heals, for example 2% or 4% or whatever of the healing received is shared to all the party/raid members, or perhaps 50% of the overhealing received split evenly between party/raid members in order to work with the new Holy Priest talent, perhaps within a certain range. Call it Teamwork or There's No I In Team or whatever other hare-brained name the devs want (because honestly, after Sword and Board, the names can't get much campier), but it would be great to have something that touches on how the tank is the focal point of a group effort.

Regarding sheer fun, two of the most fun abilities we got in BC were Spell Reflect and Intervene. Not only were these fun, they were remarkably innovative. With WotLK, some of the fun things I'm looking forward to are the new and improved Shield Block and the new Strength to Block Value ratio. Cider's right on the money; Huge SSlams are huge fun. But something new? How about a glyph to SSlam that adds a small aoe knockback? I'm imaging something where you've got a ton of mobs on you, you Shockwave to stun them, and to give yourself a little more breathing room, you SSlam one, and four or five of the mobs go flying back a few yards. Think about the opening epic battle in Fellowship of the Ring, where Sauron is swinging his mace around knocking fools back. I want to do something like that, except with a shield.

Finally, ranged pulls are one of the things that I've always had to tell groups to treat very delicately, simply because the threat from my thrown weapon isn't going to be nearly enough to hold a mob if someone else in my group so much as farts sideways. How about something where our ranged attack has a lot more Oomph! A shotgun blast or a bow shot or a thrown dagger that hits our target in just the right place to piss it off. Because if you want to talk about fun, a pump-action 12 gauge blast to a ghoul's head is pretty high on the Testostero-meter.

And as has been echoed both here and on the WoW forums, making Shockwave a PBAoE would be a hoot.

So imagine this pull. You pull the hammer back on your rifle and plug a round into a mob, luring it and its dozen buddies in your direction. The crack of the blast is enough to keep all their attention. Once they reach you, you lay into them with TClaps and Devastates, Cleaving left and right. Things get a little hairy, so you (full of rage and power and almighty awesomeness) let loose a Shockwave and SSlam several mobs in front of you, popping them backwards to land on their keisters. Then, in that moment where everything is stunned, you see a loose mob making a break for your healer. In one quick, fluid motion, you yank out your thrown weapon and whip it into the mob's back so that it turns it's attention on you and comes charging.

Of course, your shield block is stopping everything and your heroic strikes, cleaves, and Tclaps are critting left and right for giggle-inducing amounts (because of all the Strength and [another fun addition] Agility the newly itemized tanking gear has). You're an Immovable Object, a wall Of Steel, and you layeth the smacketh down on their candy asses.

THAT... would be fun.

Heartwood
08-15-2008, 12:43 PM
A couple other ideas:

Don't disable our abilities in raid situations. ie:
1) Taunt immune mobs. Let us be the hero that intervenes and taunts to save a raid member!
2) Spell reflect not working on spells or mobs (ie. Karazhan). I have this neat ability, but it doesn't work. Hmmm. :(

Generally, Prot Wars have little to no in-battle health recuperation (excluding health pots, warlock stones, or the temporary boost from last stand). This means that we start the fight and are at the mercy of killing something before our mitigation/avoidance allows the mob(s) to kill us. Some class-specific ability to heal some health would be nice. Maybe some type of kit we could 'craft' outside of combat, to use in-combat.

Heartwood
08-15-2008, 01:06 PM
(Wish I could edit my posts to add in info! lol)

Another idea would be removing Shield Wall from the GCD as had been done with Spell Reflect. This is mostly removing a frustration from tanking as Prot War. This is our 'oh nuts!' last-second ability to avoid dying. And I can't count the number of times I've gone to use this ability only to be blocked out by the GCD and ended up in an unnecessary death.

Mangea
08-15-2008, 01:06 PM
I really like Ghladum's Last Man Standing idea. And to bounce off Cider's idea of health regeneration, something along the lines of getting healed for a small % of the damage we do for a limited time would be good. Nothing as huge as what Blood spec Deathknights had, but a little something extra to help reduce the downtime in soloing and questing.

So to sum up some ideas so far:
- Shield Slam gets a knockback, either single target or small aoe, perhaps a 15% chance.
- Health regeneration for a limited time based on things like our damage output and/or how much rage we have at the time and/or what % our health is at at the time.
- For each party/raid member who dies, we could:
deal more damage/our armor value goes up/our Strength goes up/our Last Stand or Shield Wall cooldown is refreshed/Last Stand could be used again and stack for each death or remain active until combat ends. The damage increase per death could be greater in 5 man parties than in raids simply due to the disparity in group size.

Mangea
08-15-2008, 01:13 PM
I really like Ghladum's Last Man Standing idea. And to bounce off Cider's idea of health regeneration, something along the lines of getting healed for a small % of the damage we do for a limited time would be good. Nothing as huge as what Blood spec Deathknights had, but a little something extra to help reduce the downtime in soloing and questing.

So to sum up some ideas so far:
- Shield Slam gets a knockback, either single target or small aoe, perhaps a 15% chance.
- Health regeneration for a limited time based on things like our damage output and/or how much rage we have at the time and/or what % our health is at at the time.
- High threat attack using ranged weapon.

- For each party/raid member who dies, we could:

deal more damage
increase our armor value
increase our Strength
refresh our Last Stand or Shield Wall cooldown
use Last Stand again and stack it for each death or it could remain active until combat ends
Or any combination of these. Of course, the benefit we gain from each group member death would have to be smaller per death in a raid group than in a 5 man group. But you get the idea.

Mangea
08-15-2008, 01:24 PM
Gah, can't edit or delete previous posts >.< Very sorry for the post spam, but I had another idea. Continuing on with the Last Man Standing idea, maybe every time a party or a raid member dies, the cooldowns on Challenging Shout, Shockwave and Last Stand are refreshed, Shockwave does 1.5x or 2x damage, and Last Stand's effects last until combat ends. Or instead of SW doing more damage, all the warrior's damage is increased by 10% or so. How's that sound?

Ciderhelm
08-15-2008, 01:34 PM
The news forum can never be edited -- apologies. This is specifically so I can pull posts and turn them directly into news (such as Hypatias) without worrying about the content suddenly changing on me. There's no toggle to separate Thread editing from Reply editing at this time.

Sangi
08-15-2008, 01:45 PM
- Health regeneration for a limited time based on things like our damage output and/or how much rage we have at the time and/or what % our health is at at the time.

An ability that regenerated health similar to how Shamanistic Rage regens mana would be really nice. But that is a 41 point talent so I doubt that it would be feasible for us.

breaklance
08-15-2008, 03:23 PM
Stance Dancing to Fear
Real tanks dont need fear ward, lazy tanks like one though lol.

Multi-Tanking
While a lesser tank may have problems multitanking through Shattered Halls or Shadow Labs, doing so on a warrior with limited or no cc is an art-form.

Qual Danas Dailies
Grabing and kiting so many mobs to fill your quest in one fight and still haveing 5k health or more is fun.

World PvP
Having many a rogue try to kill me, mage try to Pom Pyro, and expecting me to die is laughable. Doing 2v2's while prot is funny too when it comes down to prot war vs physical dmg class.

But blizz these arnt fun
-The repair costs, even when i don't die.
-The incapability to grind, or make money effeciently to cover repairs(im only t4 and i still have 45g in repairs before anything is even yellow)
-2minute buffs for 5 people out of the entire raid.
-Too many tanks already in my opinion, most "serious progression guilds" run with 5 tanks total( Granted bigger guilds who have several sets of raiders have more, mine runs smoothly with 6, 4 wars 2 pallies, and usually works out without needing to sideline a tank on purpose). I'm in a t5 progression guild because i had to basically build it myself, after trying for weeks to get into a t5 or t6 progression guild. But maybe thats my craptacular server.
-Feeling useless in raids untill its bosstime.

-Grinding resist sets for yourself without any dps buddies.
-

Rampart
08-15-2008, 03:44 PM
Something that can be found in many other MMORPGs is the ability to reflect physical attacks. Warriors already have something in the same genre of abilities with Retaliation, but it's just not the same. To be able to put up your shield and deflect damage point for point back on the attacker is hilariously fun. My thoughts lead towards being able to deflect rogue attacks. Now of course something like that would have to be balanced quite profusely, but it's an idea at least.

Ioseb
08-15-2008, 03:51 PM
Warrior

Fun:
-Being the most important guy in the raid
-Having a difficult job(on some fights, I just afk after I engage mother.)
-Being prot. The few, the proud. I like to explore prot PvP and prot DPS.
-Highly reactive fights, where I actually have to decide what is the best course of action rather than follow the script. Lurker, alar, Illidari council, flames of azzinoth, bloodboil, etc.

Not fun:
-Collecting resist gear, but I hear they are fixing that.
-30s intercept in PvP, prot warriors gotta pwn face too!
-Soloing before I had full BT dps gear. Both because of down time and sub par damage.
-Other classes with bad theat/damage ratios or mechanics(warlocks)
-Having so many sets of tanking gear(unavoidable)


Would be fun:
-A ranged attack of some sort other than shoot
-More bosses that allow you to stop tanking for some parts of the fight to perform other tasks
-Don't reduce cooldowns of oh-shit buttons quite as much as is planned. Without the pressure of wanting to save them it really takes away some of the fun of even having them. They turn from oh shit buttons to routine order.
-Shield spikes effect shield slam... Oh pretty pretty please!

Blizzard, read the next few lines if nothing else!
-Something that allows prot specced classes to benefit more from food/bandages
-More procs and things on shields. Like shields with similar starts but cool/fun procs( sporeggar shield). Make them a little more than just stats. Think totems/librams/Idols. Maybe a wider array of enchants? Inscriptions?
-Just give is more cool little caveats, nothing ground breaking but fun stuff. Kinda like what engineering is getting with making any boots rocket boots or shooting webs or whatever.

Knighterrant81
08-15-2008, 04:17 PM
From the Paladin point of view:

I'm leveling my Paladin (currently level 63, just finished tanking a Mana Tombs full run). I have raiding experience as a shadowpriest up to Hyjal.

I *really* like tanking. Even when my priest was specced for healing, nothing gets me invited back faster than being a good tank. I enjoy learning the 5-mans all over again from the driver's seat. Also, I enjoy the fact that I can make up for a lot of group deficiencies, and for bad pulls. It's a lot easier for me to get geared up as a tank, because I know where my limits are and I know I can make the run succeed. So instead of pug wipefests, pugs are a source of income. I keep a friends list full of people I trust, and I learn who I can't trust (they don't go on my friends list).

My rogue and shadowpriest are very excited that blizzard wants to increase the tanking population. I am worried that they will make tanking too easy. However, improving aoe and burst threat for warriors would be a great move (I'm leveling a warrior at the moment as well), without trivializing encounters.

Suggestions for improvement of tanking as a paladin:

1) Give paladins more choices for each global cooldown. I like being able to look up and check on things while waiting for cooldowns, but it would be nice to have a few more abilities to choose from. This looks like its being addressed.

2) Give paladins a spell interrupt. Being a blood elf, I have my racial, which helps, but this definitely would be a nice addition.

3) Give paladins a way to build threat and regenerate mana when we're not being hit. I hate it when my taunt is resisted, my bubble and judgement is on cooldown, and all I can do to build threat is autoattack with a seal on.

Suggestions for improving the tanking role as a whole:

1) Don't change (read: dumb down) tanking. There are a lot of people who just don't put much effort into their characters and aren't cut out for it and making it easy enough for these people would make it much less fun for everyone else.

2) Make adequate gear accessible to intelligent, but casual players, but make sure to put the real gems out there for the hard cores. (Heroic Badges are great for this I think)

3) Teach people how to tank, or how to party with a tank. To teach people to tank, you could introduce an early questline for each tanking class that requires them to tank, either solo or with a group. Put one in there for healers too, that would be swell.

You could also block certain level players from entering instances. Too many players reach level 70 without knowing how to play their class in groups because they get run through by players at the level cap. Once at 70, then people won't even go into instances unless everyone's overgeared (LF1M kara must have all epics and downed prince, anyone?). Priests who don't know how to heal, rogues who don't know how to sap, and tanks who don't know how to tank exist because of this problem. Tanks who don't know how to tank are prime candidates for dps specs.

4) make it easier to solo quests. I'm excited about the possibility of two specs per character!

Bodasafa
08-15-2008, 08:25 PM
I only have ONE toon. Thats right ONE. Not even a bank alt. Its a warrior tank. If somone can enjoy playing just one class and even just one spec for almost 3 years, I think that says alot right there.

I lvl'd up as a mix of Arms/Fury but once I hit 60 I spec'd tank and never looked back.

Able to LVL as Prot.
Alot of people in my guild asked me if I was going to re-spec Arms or Fury when BC came out. My response .. No. I found it very enjoyable to lvl to 70as a prot tank. I was able to handle alot by myself. When times were tough and you couldnt allways find a group to help you do qsts, I was able to solo it.

Also later on when I decided to grind up gold for my epic flyer, I still had all the qsts in SMV, the back half of Blades Edge and the back half of Netherstorm worth of qsts to complete. Because when I hit 70, I went straight to grinding 5 man rep factions. I was able to get roughly 3k of the gold I needed for my epic flyer. By this time most of the guild had been done with all thoses quests a long time ago. So finding a group for them would have been a pain. But as a prot warrior I was able to solo almost all of them, including "group" quests. I belive I needed help with mabye 4 total of the harder ones, but that was it.

Unique Tools
As a warrior tank we have a host of last ditch survival tools. Last Stand, Shield Wall, Concusion Blow & Bandage. The only class with a Shield Block to negate crushing blows. We have 2 charges and 3 stances. We have shouts. We have Intervene, what a great tool, so many uses. Spell Reflection, Wow is it a great feeling to spell reflect a 17k arcane overload! Epic Shield Slam Crits, as somone mentioned before. Got my personal best the other day with 1097 SBV (with autoblocker up), poped a 3,362 hit across a mobs face. Dam that feels good.

Mangea
08-15-2008, 09:20 PM
Agreed. A follow up quest to the quest to gain DStance which would require you to tank would be good. At the very least, maybe something from our trainers that gives good advice. Something like, "Hey kid, that fight you're about to go into, the one where you need to keep the bad guys off the weak and injured... yeah, bad guys hate it when you tease and taunt them, or when you sunder their armor. Just remember that your thirst for revenge will make them think that you're a huge threat. Keep your shield up."

It would be very easy to impliment trainer tips, and that ounce of prevention would make for many metric tons of cure.

Salion
08-15-2008, 10:23 PM
(I play a warrior)

What’s fun about tanking:
The greatest thing about tanking is that it takes all of my focus. I find that while playing alts (whether dps or heals), more often then not I have to watch tv while playing just to keep myself from getting bored. I can’t do this while tanking … the tank role is very engaging and thus more fun than any other roles.

My favorite times while tanking were before thunderclap was made into an easy button. It was awesome amounts of fun to be clicking between 5 different mobs (whether because someone pulled an extra group or because I was in Shattered Halls with limited cc) and working my butt off to keep aggro. Along with this, needing to make full use of Taunt, Mocking Blow, Chall. Shout, Intervene, and Concussion Blow on these fights was really awesome. Tanking is most fun when I have to use all of my varied abilities, rather than just spam the same ability over and over like dps and healers usually have to.

Worries:
More fun for me means more engagment, and usually more difficulty. If tanking is changed to be easier and more "appealing to the masses", it would most likely make it less engaging, and thus less fun.


My thoughts on new ideas:
I love the “Last Man Standing” idea … getting a triggered enrage from comrades dying would be very entertaining … it would be cool if it gave you like a 15s stackable threat+survival buff or something like that.

I'd really like to have more varied shouts – for those times when there are 3 warriors in a group (or just for more options). It would be great to have some type of avoidance shout or a spell dam reduction buff. Maybe a new kind of shout: like a burst survivability shout, something that still overwrites any other shout you've thrown up, only lasts 20s, and puts a 2min cd on all your shouts.

I don't like the shield slam knockback idea; you’d have to chase the mob back to keep hitting it. Thus, there'd be small delays in threat generation. It would also be hitting you less, so you'd have less smooth rage generation. Also, you’d have to be careful not to chain-knock into another group.

Knighterrant81
08-15-2008, 10:45 PM
Agreed. A follow up quest to the quest to gain DStance which would require you to tank would be good. At the very least, maybe something from our trainers that gives good advice. Something like, "Hey kid, that fight you're about to go into, the one where you need to keep the bad guys off the weak and injured... yeah, bad guys hate it when you tease and taunt them, or when you sunder their armor. Just remember that your thirst for revenge will make them think that you're a huge threat. Keep your shield up."

It would be very easy to impliment trainer tips, and that ounce of prevention would make for many metric tons of cure.

Now, this sounds like fun. Make it kinda tough, too, so people are asking for help with how to tank that 3rd or 4th mob at the same time.

Now, put another one of these in at the level cap, and make it a daily quest that can only be soloed by tanks!

[some rogue] man, how do you complete that escort daily quest? I die after the third mob attacks me!

[Warrior tank] Well, its easy for me, that's the first daily quest I do every time, it covers half my repair bills every week!

Ciderhelm
08-16-2008, 12:13 AM
I edited 8 posts violating the thread rules and handed out 3 infractions. I would suggest reading the original post and checking out what responses should (and should not) include.

Please continue.

Extermi
08-16-2008, 01:29 AM
Regarding the Paladin (some ideas may fit to other classes as well):

- First and foremost: Avoid designing rotations that take all your GCDs just to do the bare neccessary (build threat). This is currently ok with the Paladin, but the expansion will bring a pure 9s fixed rotation consuming all GCDs - a macro keyboard could do my job easily

- Use the freed up GCDs to allow skills to control the situation, rather than just standing and being hit. For example, I absolutely love that I am able to offload healers by dispelling, e.g. in the Halazzi fight, while still tanking. I see some potential in the hand spells, but where to get the GCDs ?

- Its definitely vital to have a something valuable to do when not tanking or not being the current tank. Examples include healing (e.g. I flash the fel rage target in the Bloodboil fight, that could be more efficient but still everything counts), or good DPs. Currently, without gear change, nothing is really significant, though. I really like the concept of ferals being able to do good DPS once their main target is down.

- Being able to do good DPS while tanking is definitely fun

- What is frustrating being rendered helpless. For example while raiding the temple I would not enjoy revisiting Gruul (even though I progression tanked him) simply because whatever you do, when silence hits and you cannot get you holy shield up (its a spell) you simply sit and pray (after triggering the watch, of course) for not getting hit. This is NOT fun and should be avoided.

- Mana management is an issue (and I believe its a bit similar for warriors). When you go with well equipped people in old content you are the one having a stressful job since people generate threat like hell and you need to pull everything, depleting you after every few pulls (I think I adpated quite well but its a thin line). What is needed is threat that does not so strongly depend on being hit. The death knight with its energy type mechanism might be the best, but others could be adapted to be less painful

- Its fun to have something to boost your offense or defense for a while. Im happy with the wings and with the new short-duration shieldwall, other tanks should have a similar mechanism. Long cooldowns like the old 1h lay on hands are not fun at all.

Extermi

Hypatia
08-16-2008, 01:48 AM
On the side of "what would be more fun", I think I agree with some people who have talked about being able to solo or DPS more reasonably with a sword and shield. Sure, prot does reasonable DPS with DW gear (as long as they're taking enough damage to keep the rage flowing--something non-tanks sometimes miss when they look at those fights where prot warriors do respectable DPS)... but it seems to me that a prot warrior is all about that sword and board. They're his lover, his helpmeet, his bread and wine. Why should he put the shield away when he's not running instances?

Yes, you can grind quite satisfactorily with a shield out. But can you grind as well as with good DW gear? Not really. It would be lovely to be able to grind effectively with DPS gear and a sword and shield out. I imagine that's a lot more possible with the new Strength to Block Value conversion, but I also doubt it's perfect.

I guess the key insight is this: It's not fun that having a shield out makes you a gimp. A protection warrior in DPS gear (with shield) ought to be able to do respectable DPS. Should he be out-DPSing fury warriors? No. But he shouldn't be producing less DPS than the paladin who happens to be MTing at the time.

So I guess my idea for how to make being a tank more fun is this: Make all tanks at least a little bit like bear tanks were when they were a bit overpowered. Aim for "a tank-specced class in DPS gear but still using the iconic tools of his trade should produce not worse than 20% less long-term DPS than a DPS spec of the same class at the same level." If that means that tank moves will have lower inherent threat to make up for their higher damage potential, so be it. If it means such DPS-with-shield people will have to worry about a threat cap and use less effective but less threatening moves sooner than others, that's fine, too (although that threat cap issue shouldn't add more than another 10% to the loss of DPS.)

In short: Don't penalize a tank for being tough to kill when he's geared for tanking by making him hit like a wet noodle. And don't make a tank use a completely different kind of weapon when he's trying to DPS than when he's tanking. Make it fun to be a tank even when you're not tanking, and let tanks carry the tools of their trade with pride.

A prot warrior with a shield or a prot pally with a shield should feel like they're ready to go out to kick ass and take names, not like they need to make a quick visit to Cutlery Plus.

Drao
08-16-2008, 10:11 AM
let tanks carry the tools of their trade with pride.

Health Regen of any kind, maybe bonus on food, healthstones and bandages, maybe a talent on mid-prot tree ... anything in this way would be the funniest thing Blizz could do for Warriors

Siona
08-16-2008, 10:27 AM
The most fun thing about playing a protection warrior is being at the center of the action. I love being able to control the pace of an instance, and controlling a large group of mobs. It demands that I not go semi-afk while playing, as many dps specs can do. Some people like that, but when I boot up a video game, I do so to actually play and have fun doing so, not to collect loot while I watch TV. I also love that there is so much room for skill to really make a difference with the warrior. You have to really focus, know what you're doing, and have great reaction times to be a top notch warrior tank. While there are some issues were I feel the warrior could stand to be a little "easier" to play in return for being much more effective (AOE tanking in particular), I don't want to see tanking dumbed down to the point of being ezmode.

Other things I love about my tank now or would love to see him get in the expansion:

Big Shield Slams are always fun. Shield Slam defines the protection in that it lets him actually deal damage by using a defensive item. It makes me a little sad to see it being given to all warriors. I tanked every instance on my way up to 70 as fury and had no problems, again because I knew what I was doing. I even tanked normal shattered halls without a point in prot. Shield Slam isn't necessary to tank, but damn if I don't miss it whenever I respec out of prot. It will be nice to level as fury and still have shield slam in WotLK. At the same time, I would like to see Blizzard introduce a new protection talent that uses the shield in an offensive capacity as shield slam does. Maybe as a replacement for Vigilance? Or as a new 51 point talent and move Shockwave to 31?

I love the Decapitator. I was so hoping warriors would get an ability called "Decapitate" that hurled your weapon at your target. It could disarm you for a second or two and it would still be useful. You could use it to pull, since it usually takes a few seconds for the mobs to get to you anyway, and a protection warrior is never helpless even when disarmed, as he still has shield slam, thunder clap, and shield bash to generate threat. It would be even more useful as a hammer of wrath style ability, to take out enemies that have run away from you.

Ranged abilities: I also wouldn't mind a high damage, high threat ranged shot ability for pulling. It could have a casting time like Aimed Shot, and it would let you ignore the initial target a bit longer than you currently can while you build up threat on the rest of the targets in the pull. Decapitate could be used when you need an instant ranged ability to precisely pull a pathing mob, as long as its travel time to the target is not slow like the original hammer of wrath. Alternately, we could get an instant shot ability with low damage but high threat to use as a pulling tool. Rogues are a melee class that got an ability to use their ranged weapon in BC. I don't see why it would be problematic for warriors to get this as well.

Health Regeneration/Bleed Consumption: It seems like warriors are getting a lot of abilities to make targets bleed or to improve those bleeds in the new expansion. Perhaps as a fun way to address Cider's (and my own) concerns about health regeneration and downtime, we could have an ability that consumes a bleed effect on the target and grants us health? It's sickening how little downtime my death knight has with all of his health regen abilities. I'd like to see a bit of that lovin spread to warriors, especially prot warriors.

Avatar: The Mountain King was one of the most quintessential warrior heroes of Warcraft III, and several of our abilites our based off him (another name for decapitate could be "Storm Bolt"). I would LOVE to see the level 80 warrior ability be Avatar, adapted for WoW. Full spell immunity is maybe a little rough on the casters, but dramatically reduced spell reduction, increased armor, increased health, and increased damage are what Avatar would do. It's an ability that also fits in perfectly with Northrend lore. The mountain king Muradin Bronzebeard was an important part of Arthas' storyline, and I'd love to see his ultimate ability become a warrior ability at level 80.

bosephus
08-16-2008, 11:57 AM
I play a warrior. What's fun? Complicated fights are fun. Iillidari Council? That's fun. Kael in Tempest Keep? Fun! Al'ar? Fun! Multi tank encounters are fun.

Everybody that's tanking those encounters has fun in my guild, whether they be Paladin, Warrior or Druid. We all have different mechanics, but we all have to do two things: survive and hold aggro. As long as fights continue to get more and more complicated, I'm going to have fun. The onus is on the developers to create encounters that will allow us all to shine.

I look forward to encounters more than I look forward to changes to class mechanics. I hope we get new encounters that are like Hyjal, except we also have to deal with the bosses at the same time rather than after clearing lots of trash. Maybe mixing in an Illidari Council encounter with the spawning adds of Shade of Akama.

Every class is getting more and more AOE skills, not just tanks. With the capability to push out that kind of AOE damage, I really think we'll see lots more really complex fights in the future.

What's the worst thing about tanking? When I'm not tanking! As in solo questing, pvp, or sitting on the sidelines or in DPS gear or for Paladins in healing gear during single-tank encounters. I'm glad they're putting in this Spirit Link talent for Resto Shaman, which will virtually require 3 tanks for every encounter. That removes one issue. The others...solo questing and pvp can be addressed just by stealing some utility talents from other classes. Make us able to heal ourselves a bit better than bandages or dps more efficiently.

glinn
08-16-2008, 12:29 PM
The stance system - Stances are a glorified spell book that overly complicates the warriors interface. Stance dancing is just silly, a road block created by the developers to balance rage vs dps. Yeah I can write a macro but why should I have too? Why canít any spell be available from any stance but with a modifier? A modifier either for the rage consumed or the length of the cool down. An example using a berserker stance spell in defensive stance could cost extra rage or extend the cool down a percentage. To min/max write macros I can still write macros, to tank lite just stay in one stance and take the modifier hit.

Consolidate some spells. Why do I have Intercept, charge and Intervene? Why canít one spell do all three with the same or similar results? I donít have that many tools when I use my Druid (on occasion) to tank with but its enough to get the job done. Although I prefer my warrior tank, Drood tanking seems fun, almost perfect, in away. To make the class deep, warriors have ended up with a lot of fluff. As an example while DPSing in a pug at Big Bad Wolfe, I whispered the tank to use Intervene at the corners. He told me had never used it because he couldnít fit it on his barÖ. No room. Really nice guy, he was playing WoW with his son. Not the best raid tank, but thatís how your pug tank thinks.

brain9h
08-16-2008, 01:22 PM
=> DUAL-WIELD TANKING is great. I love to remove my shield and still tank. I started doing that in low rage situations, and guess what, is just feels good.

Suggestion: Blizzard should give Prot a talent that allows us to DOUBLE our parry rating when dual-wielding.
(makes perfect sense, you trade your shield for a second weapon, and this talent means you are trained to make defensive use of the off hand weapon)

This talent would be great because it would allow build flexibility. You can either use a shield and block stuff, or you can get a second weapon and parry stuff. The loss of block rating, block value and armor mitigation would be offset by more avoidance via parry and extra rage via the stalwart defender talent and more threat from damage. That's FLAVOR, and FLAVOR IS FUN.

Machus
08-16-2008, 06:40 PM
What I find fun as a warrior tank? Focus. Furious activity. Being mentally and physically exhausted after a day of heroic tanking. Heightened awareness. Studying the role in depth. Having to work doubly hard to be fit for the job. Performing. Tanking heroic Shattered Halls in one hour, then bowing down to the group and receiving their praise. Confidence. Going up to a raid boss that would one-shot anyone else, and make short work of you, pulling it, and knowing that you'll make it through. Going into a pack of mobs and taking on the lot, surprising those who would use CC. Tenacity. Bringing down a pack or even a boss when just you and the healer are left standing. Taking leadership of the team and setting pace. Succeeding where others might fail. Having the luxury to pick your team. Making a name for yourself and being in demand for what you do.

That's what is fun about tanking. The trouble is that these are aspects of universal human qualities such as drive, excellence, or responsibility. These are precisely the qualities that players, very reasonably, don't want to invest when they say they don't want to tank. I don't want to invest them every time - sometimes I do and other times I'm tired and want a less stressful, less responsible role as DPS. Whether I want to tank or not (and I believe it's true of tanks and non-tanks alike) is about whether I want to play hard, and not about whether thunderclap hits 4, 5, or N mobs.

So, if Blizzard want to fix the shortage of tanks (meaning the low willingness of tanks to tank PuGs), which they should, the only way to achieve that is to diminish the intensity of the tanking role - the same intensity where we find the fun. And that will be a good and fair thing. Tanking in BC is poorly balanced across progression levels. In heroics, the tank's role is far too intense and everything revolves around the tank, so much so that there is a shortage and so that there is less fun left for the other four players. In Kara and ZA the role is a lot more even within the raid, and I haven't personally tanked a 25-man but I suspect that often the tank has it easy compared to other roles.

What needs to be done is to balance the intensity and difficulty of tanking evenly with that of the other roles in 5-man heroics, 10-man raids, and 25-man raids. One thing that this will take, as Veneretio said elsewhere, is that more tanking has to be required, of lesser perfection. There needs to be more chaos! Think of how we did UBRS, an instance that I see as having excellent balance: We had a main tank, but their stats weren't so far off the others, and their main job was threat. Anyone else who could tank, even hunters and rogues, did a bit. Mages and rogues picked their own CC targets on the fly and the group could never rely on total or flawless CC. Clothies took hits, even from bosses, and survived so long as a tank picked up soon enough. Success was more about dealing with the chaos as a team than about having two guys tank everything while having their health bars refilled.

PS. Specifically for warriors, some changes that would improve the fun are:


Redesigning archaic mechanics such as stance dancing. OK it's a skill, but a fairly unrewarding and mechanical one.
Simplifying our user interface so that our abilities fit in fewer key bindings, and being careful about introducing even more.
Giving us more tanking flavors, such as aggressive tank, supporting tank, boss tank by moving tanking skills such as safeguard, shockwave, or vigilance to other trees.
Resolving the situations where we are completely powerless due to lack of rage, usually at the beginning of the pull.
Before designing abilities such as spell reflect, shockwave or imp. disarm, think hard about what they are going to do on raid bosses, and try to be more consistent. It's not a fun mechanic to have to know whether ability X works on boss Y.

Radhja
08-16-2008, 08:55 PM
Hmm, "Last Man Standing" idea got me to brainstorming...

Last Man Standing
Passive Ability
Decreases all damage taken and increases resistances by 1% for each person in your raid that is dead.

Literally, you become tougher and tougher with each other raid member's demise. Let's say you're in a Gruul pug, and some newbies haven't had the best of luck with positioning during Shatters, resulting in 10 early deaths. That's alot of strain on the remaining healers' mana, ultimately resulting in an untimely KO around 8-10 growths. To combat this, the tank will get the extra damage mitigation to help alleviate the pains suffered by his raid support.

Of course, this would probably be changed to an activated ability that has some rediculous cooldown... I'd like to see it as-is. :P

Radhja
08-16-2008, 09:11 PM
Suggestion: Blizzard should give Prot a talent that allows us to DOUBLE our parry rating when dual-wielding.
(makes perfect sense, you trade your shield for a second weapon, and this talent means you are trained to make defensive use of the off hand weapon)

Oh, and this. Fantastic idea for Fury/Arms tanks. Would require some in-depth analyzation into how much Parry would be optimal (or, in fact, too much), but would be well worth the effort.

Dual-wielding King's Defender and The Sun Eater... I took screenshots of that ages ago, and now we have a fantastic idea. Someone call Blizz... the devs should check TankSpot more often.

TheMainFrame
08-16-2008, 09:13 PM
Oh, and this. Fantastic idea for Fury/Arms tanks. Would require some in-depth analyzation into how much Parry would be optimal (or, in fact, too much), but would be well worth the effort.

Dual-wielding King's Defender and The Sun Eater... I took screenshots of that ages ago, and now we have a fantastic idea. Someone call Blizz... the devs should check TankSpot more often.

LoL.. Im always duel weilding them.. just for looks mostly :p

Corise
08-17-2008, 04:18 AM
My warrior is my main tank.

One of the things I truly enjoy about tanking is that there is almost always something to do. There are always people wanting to at least run some instance and a well geared and knowledgeable tank should never be bored.

However, there are certainly times when I am. One of the things our guild loves to do is pvp for a bit after we raid and many times I feel rather useless unless I go respec before hand. As other people have pointed out, grinding money for huge repair costs already has out budget pretty tight. I know most of the time tanking is considered a PVE only thing, but why not tank in BG's and Arenas as well!

What I would enjoy seeing is some of new abilities added for prot that would be useful in pvp as well as maybe some changes to existing abilities. We already saw some of this with shield slam adding a daze effect and intervine is very useful.

Intervene: Would be nice is this would take spell damage and not just physical.

Taunt: Yeah, it has been talked to death when it comes to pvp. But if it could at least make the player being taunted drop target that would be awesome.

PVP only abilities: In this game there are offensive abilities that exist that can only be used on PVE mobs. Why not some abilities that can only be used on other players? This could allow for powerful pvp abilities that would not imbalance pve.

Demo Shout: This is nice for lowering AP, but either in this ability or a new ability be able to reduce spell power of our opponent.

Corise
08-17-2008, 04:21 AM
Ah, I know I can not edit, but on my previous post i meant to say that the daze effect had been added to Shield Bash.

Painapple
08-17-2008, 05:53 AM
... Having the luxury to pick your team. Making a name for yourself and being in demand for what you do.

That's what is fun about tanking. The trouble is that these are aspects of universal human qualities such as drive, excellence, or responsibility. These are precisely the qualities that players, very reasonably, don't want to invest when they say they don't want to tank. I don't want to invest them every time - sometimes I do and other times I'm tired and want a less stressful, less responsible role as DPS. Whether I want to tank or not (and I believe it's true of tanks and non-tanks alike) is about whether I want to play hard, and not about whether thunderclap hits 4, 5, or N mobs.

So, if Blizzard want to fix the shortage of tanks (meaning the low willingness of tanks to tank PuGs), which they should, the only way to achieve that is to diminish the intensity of the tanking role - the same intensity where we find the fun. And that will be a good and fair thing. Tanking in BC is poorly balanced across progression levels. In heroics, the tank's role is far too intense and everything revolves around the tank, so much so that there is a shortage and so that there is less fun left for the other four players. In Kara and ZA the role is a lot more even within the raid, and I haven't personally tanked a 25-man but I suspect that often the tank has it easy compared to other roles.



Simplifying our user interface so that our abilities fit in fewer key bindings, and being careful about introducing even more.



Nice.



Last Man Standing
Passive Ability
Decreases all damage taken and increases resistances by 1% for each person in your raid that is dead.

Awesome



Blizzard should give Prot a talent that allows us to DOUBLE our parry rating when dual-wielding.
(makes perfect sense, you trade your shield for a second weapon, and this talent means you are trained to make defensive use of the off hand weapon)


Again, awesome.


Demo Shout: This is nice for lowering AP, but either in this ability or a new ability be able to reduce spell power of our opponent.

This one has entered my mind several times, wouldn't mind an Escape Artist shout while at it.

hvidgaard
08-17-2008, 08:33 AM
(disclaimer, I haven't read all thread yet!)

As a prot warrior a few thing have crossed my mind:

Cleave: It is a swing with you weapon, so why not let it hit all enemies in near melee range in a 150-180 degrees frontal angle?

Shield Slam: If you got a big shield slammed in your face wouldn't you be knocked back or at least be 1-2 sec to recover?

Thunderclap: Why on earth does it only affect 4 targets? - I know it would be overpowered if it hits all targets, but it could be countered with a fixed amount of say 1000 threat devided among all targets in range, but not more than 250 per target.

Dual Wield Tanking: I LOVE IT, seriously, many endgame tanks could tank 5-mans perhaps even Kara, fine without a shield, and double parry rate and much more white damage would be absolutly FUN.

What I would like to see is a high threat move linked to SS. Be it a move on a 15sec cooldown that makes your SS knockdown all enemies directly in front of you, effectivly being a 1-2sec stun.

And as others say, let the prot tree give us 1 or 2 specific abilities and the rest enhance the tools given to every warrior from a tanking perspective. And we are already a rather complex class to play if you like to squeeze every last bit of tanking out. Simplify it a little, less restrictions on what can be used in what stance (perhaps make it better/cheaper in the intented stance(s) and some penalty otherwise or talents only affect it in intented stance).

That is things that would make tanking easier and less taxing. I wouldn't like tanking to be less so, but 5-mans shouldn't be as it is now! I'd like to see a progressive complexity and skill needed from 5-man to 10-man to 25-man and I really hope they introduce 40-mans again :)

hvidgaard
08-17-2008, 08:36 AM
And I like the Last Man Standing thing, but again, it should be a minor increase, the 1% less damage taken, more damage dealt ect would be awsome. If it is any more I think we'll see it exploited where a raid would simply sacrify a player or 2 not too important in a fight (say offtanks on single tank fights) to increase the tanks performance.

Eduardo
08-17-2008, 08:38 AM
Probably something I find very fun is being able to intervene a mob protecting my teammate and then dragging the tgt back to the tank spot. I like being able to "save" teammates. I want them to know that if they are being beat on they will soon be okay.

That being said I also want to caution against introducing brand new abilites on their own.I already have several keybinds to worry about. I dont know how new abilities can be added without adding them to current abilities deeper in the tree.

I like the constant balance idea of Tank, healing dps. What can be done to enhance this?

Angering Shout - redirects 1/2/3% of the parties threat towards the warrior casting the shout - 2 min duration.

Gift of Blood - Acts mechanically like a soulstone. A tank would "Create" the gift and give it to a healer. The healer can activate the gift and it will increase the healing done to the tank that created it by 10% for 30 seconds or something similar but only from that healer. Could require a reagent of some type from the warrior like a healing pot?

Flip - The warrior ducks down and throws the attacker over him (Judo style?) Causing xx dmg and disarming them for 3 seconds (3 seconds is enough for the warrior to reposition them back in front to prevent getting hit in back). Maybe make this a prot talent tied to improved parry? "Your parries have a 1/2% chance of flipping the target" Could be a lot of fun near a cliff like in AB Lumber Mill. Imaging running the flag in WSG and a warrior comes to attack you as you flip him over you and keep running.

Ideas like flip could start to introduce more physics type abilities into the game.


What about Prot PVP or solo play? We could have an ability that doubles our SS dmg but has a 45 second CD to only increase burst dmg. This dmg increase would still be much lower "over time"than an arms warrior though.

slouth1269
08-17-2008, 12:48 PM
I would like to see protection warriors get some sort of Rescue ability. ( You throw yourself infront of %T taking all dmg that would normally be inflicted to them for 10sec) I belive it would be great in PVP and PVE alike. You could save your healer by taking punishment while he heals you and the rest of your group. Also if a mob got away from you or somone forgot to assist and pulled taunt while your taunt ability is down, you could save your DPS.

Drao
08-17-2008, 01:29 PM
Make a talent to give our Stamina some ratio of Health Regen, not our Spirit :(

Lobo
08-17-2008, 01:40 PM
Here are a couple of my ideas:

Interaction with self buffs/debuffs: I like the T5 set bonus that would give me increase block value after I used shield block. I macrod it to my shield slam so I would slam right away for some pretty nice numbers. It was fun too! Gave me something to do other then watch my cooldowns.

Similarly, look. at a shield bash daze and heroic strike combo. HS does more damage do a dazed target, bash dazes, more damage. Granted the damage bonus is barely noticeable, but maybe increase that damage to give us more "1-2 punches"


Broaden some of our abilities:
Giving Tclap the ability to hit more targets would be swell, but why not make it reduce movement speed like in the RTS game? Fury warriors can get piercing howl but the ability to slow the movement speed of the mobs around me would make tanking them easier and a lot more fun.

Or give Tclap the ability to remove movement impairing effects, or have a chance to silence, or have it remove stun, disorient, charm or sleep effects from group members in range. That way we get some part buffs too.

Last Stand: Cooldown improvement is nice, but maybe throw in a damage reducer at the end of it. Nothing big, maybe a 15-20% damage reduction so that drop of health isn't so scary if you're on the ropes.

Sword & Board: Give it the ability to proc a shield block OR shield slam. It can be a great defensive ability or offensive. More variety = more fun.

Give Critical block increase chance to crit with shield bash/slam. MOAR damage on shield slam is fun!

change Vigilance. There was a post in the wow warrior forums where someone suggested making it either a group member buff decreasing threat or a mob debuff, increasing your threat to that target. It could open a whole line of warrior buffs and debuffs called "Gazes". They could have Gazes that can buff party members or debuff mobs. Such gazes could increase rage generation, increase healing received, increase armor or they could act as debuffs like reducing chance to hit, reducing overall damage, increase cast time. These gazes could be really valuable to having more then one prot warrior in a raid.


Those are my modest ideas.
Couple others I'll throw out:
Remove or reduce damage debuff in defensive stance.
Remove or reduce damage taken debuff to zerker stance.

Radhja
08-17-2008, 02:10 PM
My wish-list of changes (steam of consciousness version):

Grappling system
I yearn for the day I'll be able to perform a Karate Chop on someone. I loved playing Monks in D&D (3.5) simply because you couldn't wrestle one down. WoW's combat engines are a little clunky for handling a realistic (i.e., anatomically-friendly) combat. There are technologies in development that could handle this in future MMOs, but I doubt this pipedream of mine will ever come to fruition.

Dual-wielding Parry bonus
The more I think about this, the more I want to DW my Cleaver of the Unforgiving and King's Defender. Parry is one of the hardest stats to stack at the moment, but imagine replacing all your Block rating with Parry Rating... your avoidance would be huge (spiky incoming damage), but your threat would be insane. I could easily see a T4+ warrior DW-tanking Karazhan when his "real" tank just rage-starves him in trivial encounters like KZ's mobs. With Prot's itemization in WLK, all that extra Strength will benefit both DW's (high AP) and Shieldbearers (high SBV), so this is an avenue that Blizz should really look into.

Improved Defensive Stance reducing the cooldown of Intervene.
With the development of Safeguard (which feels like a tip of the blizz hat to Warriors wanting to Arena in prot gear), Intervene needs some loving too. Prot's strong point is that it's really tough to kill and can protect its raid (and/or teammates) as well. Reducing the CD would help considerably, perhaps as much as 7/14/20 seconds of reduction per point invested in Imp. Defensive Stance. Hell, considering the *real* cost of the ability is soaking up the target's next blow for them, there really isn't a need for a cooldown. :P

More Shout options
Let the glyphs do the range/effectiveness of Shouts! Those talent points we're wasting in Fury could be used to create new shouts, like haste/windfury shout, increased/reduced threat raid-wide (think Amplify/Dampen Magic, but in shout form), or possibly giving Fury back its balls.* The DW Parry talent could fit nicely in Tier 4 or 5, allowing us to move DW Spec higher (poss Tier 3?)

Nonambiguous Fun
I don't want to be the "default tank", as Warriors have always been viewed as. I want to be taken into a raid specifically for my abilities that make my class different from the other tanking classes. I don't want my abilities to be better than other classes' abilities - just equally effective, but unique. Abilities that make Warriors stand out in a raid and are FUN TO USE. (This is commonly confused with abilities that are overpowered... you don't always need that extra power to have fun with an ability.)

Let me start another list:
- Shield Tricks - I love abilities that take advantage of my enormous SBV itemization efforts. Let's see more of it.
- Trip/Knockback/Knockdown - stun abilities are great. Interrupts are a Prot warrior's playground. Let's get creative with these mechanics.
- Frustration Effect while "running distraction" - As a Prot warrior, I don't always find myself at the brunt on the battle. Sometimes I find myself wandering into enemy territory only to discover I've run across a group of Horde that are plotting something. I can typically hold their attention for a time before I finally succumb to their attacks (16k is alot to burn thru, even with spell damage). I want to be able to fight back a bit more when I'm caught in these situations, giving my allies a little more time to come to my aid (or proceed with their own agenda, whichever happens to be the case).


* This is regarding the changes made to Fury before release.


Here's an idiotically fun(ny) idea to throw out there purely for kicks...

DUAL-CLASSING.

Discuss.

Stormscythe
08-17-2008, 07:36 PM
Small, small change. But having Shield Spikes affect Shield Slams/Bashes would be nicely intuitive and give a nice boost to this particular family of augments.

This might necessitate a slight retweaking of the +block value enchant for balance I guess... although nothing too major since the latter is affected by talents/metagem bonus and provides a small mitigation boost as opposed to just damage.

Elyvern
08-18-2008, 03:37 AM
I play a prot war as my 2nd main, but I must say that playing a mage for the past 2 years greatly enhanced my appreciation of tanking classes and the sheer polar opposite of how tanks play in the game. Being invincible after rolling 1 of the squishies classes in the game is cathartic. Dear god, I don't think I can ever get enough of that.

What I enjoyed as a tank:

Control
Needing to pug on my healer or my dpsers sends me running a mile away. I welcome pugging as a tank however, because *I* control the pace and the fights, *I* keep people alive. Even with a bad healer, as long as I overgear the place, I can keep everyone alive. It's a power trip, it's exhilarating. Intercepting to save a squishy, making the perfect pulls, leaving an instance with 0 friendly body counts - this is what keeps me tanking.

Smashing that "oh shit" button right on time
"Did I burn shield wall too early?" "Damn, if only I hit that button 0.5 secs faster!" Staying alive during difficult moments for that adrenaline rush and knowing I gave my raid or group that extra few seconds to burn down a boss is something I'm still learning. In a game genre where fast reflexes matter less than say FPS games, scenarios like this helps keep my gaming skills sharp.

Gear!
My guild is range-heavy, and most 5-man tend to pack more squishies than plate-wearers. Subsequently, any plate dps gear, and to a lesser extent, melee weapons default to me. This leads to the point of how warriors are so dependent on gear. In the course of my journey instancing and raiding, my prot war grinds very well in dps gear that fury warriors will kill for.

Gear!!
Prior to playing my warrior, I used to wonder why prot warriors want dibs on every piece of gear remotely related to tanking. Now with a EH set, Avoidance set, Threat set, Boss set, Dps set in my bags, I see the wisdom. :D I love the fact that I have options to so many pieces of gear and that I can fine-tune my gear sets to suit every single encounter. Honestly, no other role has so many types of gear to collect, not even healers or dpsers.

Ironically, this will change come WoTLK with standardisation of threat generation for 4 tanking classes. Dps gear will be harder to come by too with DK, Pallies and warriors all vying for the same items. Ah well, was good while it lasted.

What I hope to see improved:

Without infringing on the realm of druids, I do honestly wish that warriors generate more rage through dps. Being OT for fights like Gruul and VR and anticipating that next hateful strike, pounding to generate rage is tiresome. Strength is becoming a useful threat generator, but more rage to put that strength into good use would be nice.

More when I think further.

Dazher
08-18-2008, 05:47 AM
Q. How can Blizz make Tanking more fun?
A. Teach non-Tanking classes how they should function in a Group, and keep teaching them over and over and over and over again

(For me) The real issue behind tanking not being fun is when you have to pug, either during the leveling process or farming those badges, and if there's one idiot (usually dps-er) in the bunch they'll destroy the fun you have as tank (which lets face it is already super awesome when the group functions well)



Compare this to the immensly fun runs with my Guildies' alts where we all know how to play our roles and are lead by the tank, the actual drain mentally pugging can have on me becomes obvious.

Unfortunatly I doubt Blizz could make any skills/spells that would allow you to compensate for the ineptitude and bad attitude of the idiots you [b]will have to work with throughtout your tanking career right up to the point of end-game raiding (which lets face it means that you'll eventually only be dusting off the old tank character at set times on scheduled days, i.e. you wouldn't just log him on just for the fun of it)

hbombs
08-18-2008, 06:54 AM
I didn't really read this whole thread and I'm going to respond based of the topic and my experience tanking the nexus and utgarde keep on the beta.

The most obvious and nice talent we got was shockwave. Its an awesome talent which really feels good when you use it. The graphic is great. Its not hard to aim and blast every mob you want to hit. Starting a pull with a thunderclap then shockwave will give you lots of threat and the 4 second stun is a great time to step back and let any CC be applied. We literally didnt use any CC and shockwave and TC heal agg over healing very nicely. Can locks go around seeding everything ... no but its a start.

Free shield slams! I got caught up in watching my cooldown refresh I started to realize how often it doesnt proc :( oh well when it does its great. TPS really really gets a nice boost from that talent.

All in all I like the changes to the prot tree. Without a doubt it will be more fun to tank as a prot warrior this go around. I always found tanking to be fun and now its even better. I couldn't ask for more.

sorednbored
08-18-2008, 09:21 AM
I think Inscription has a great potential offering for tanks. I would love to see a knockdown or other type of interrupt added to something like Shield Slam.

I've never really understood why Shield Bash interrupts and Shield Slam does not. I'm sure that if I smashed someone in the face with a big plank of wood, they'd be shut up for a few seconds....

Horacio
08-18-2008, 09:57 AM
I suppose I am looking to gain some more damage output as full prot in prot gear. Leveling from 60-70 was skewed for me because Thunderfury was vastly overpowered and I could do some pretty sick damage independant of basic damage stats. Obviously it doesn't compare to farming the same mobs I killed for quests at those levels now but the level grind as full prot was pretty easy and fun.

At a certain point of gear, you can oversome the limitations of prot spec in fury gear and contribute meaningful DPS in a raid or farming now but it still requires a lower standard of content. I'm in a Kara raid on Friday nights for kicks and grins and I slap on fury gear for Aran. Lit his ass up for 800 DPS this last week, 8/5/48 spec.

I'm looking for more of that.

I'm also hoping to see more ability to control multiple mobs and a few new and revamped abilities look to offer this. I ran a few friend's alts through Crypts yesterday and its a difficult instance to pin down everything. Frantic tab dev/cleave TC spamming is a pain in the ass. I've always maintained there is nothing I can't tank but I hate having to put limitations on my group mates. I admit, I did alot of intervening yesterday because we didn't CC or mark. We blew through in aboout 30 min and didn't lose anyone until the last boss (not killing the shadow things FTL) but part of it was having a smart, quick healer. But it was fun. It was challenging and I'm looking forward to new tools to be more effective at it. I'm actually somewhat disappointed they are talking about reducing the number of high number of mob pulls from regular 5 mans.

At the moment, I'm actually considering going fury for WotLK. I've been having fun with it when I do it and the reduction on require number of tanks means it would preclude me from playing my main with some of my friends who are also tanks....and more stubborn about it than even I am, lol.

All in all, I'm looking very forward to WotLK and the changes they have in mind for tanks. They seem to be dumbing down 5 man tanking but it doesn't change the fact that we will have a larger aresenal of abilities to deploy. Being able to get through is one thing. Doing it in a dominating fashion because your tank is an impervious freight train and aggro whore is something else.

Kromzul
08-18-2008, 11:58 AM
I posted this on a few other forums a few days ago, regarding what I felt was the most pressing issue regarding Protection tanking: Rage generation. It wasn't received particularly warmly on those forums; maybe this is a more receptive audience.

-----
I'm fairly confident that Blizzard can tweak the numbers until threat output is competitive. I'm not as confident that they'll update the mechanics in a way that some of the long-standing issues about playing a warrior tank are resolved. Specifically, the extraordinary unpredictability and often-unsatisfactory rate of rage generation (an issue that currently affects DPS warriors somewhat less, but may return as an issue with the loss of Windfury giving extra attacks).

Here's what I'd like to see:

(1) Modify dodges, parries, misses, and even resists to yield half the rage they would have provided had they connected (adjusted for armor reduction, defensive stance, etc.). The 2-rage on dodge/parry talent is admirable, but it's horribly inconsistent across situations; when tanking AoE packs I'm sure it'll end up with warriors having far more rage than they can spend, but it does virtually nothing for single target tanking, which is where rage starvation is the biggest liability anyway.

(2) Naturally higher rage gain from damage when a shield is equipped. Essentially just to bring it up to what you'd expect with a two-hander or when dual-wielding. There's no really good reason to be suffering a penalty in the rate your core resource regenerates just because you've got a shield on.

(3) Modify Bloodrage to yield more rage, say in the neighborhood of 30 (and possibly remove the 10 rage after-effect trickle, not to mention the health cost). The 10 rage it currently provides really isn't useful in most situations; making it provide enough rage to actually *do* something makes it more useful and more strategic, as opposed to another step in the out-of-combat Battle Shout refresh process. It's on a fairly long cooldown for what it does, so there's no need for it to be so anemic. And just scrap the improvement talent, since nobody takes it (or alternatively, modify it to restore 5-8% life on use, to make it more useful to PvP-oriented specs).

They could tack on some AoE threat if they wanted to, but I'm not particularly concerned about that aspect of it right now.

Those are basically the three main points. In general, I think rage needs to be more abundant, as much with DPS warriors as with tanking warriors. In fact, I'd be fine with them normalizing rage generation even moreso than it is now, so long as the "baseline" rage gain increases very substantially. They seem too overly cautious about the threat of "infinite rage", and in their hesitancy to increase rage gain, they're substantially handicapping warriors in many situations: undergeared or underbuffed warriors in a raid scenario, PvP warriors who aren't being focus fired, and tanking warriors whose gear is "too good" for their particular environment.

They need to relax their restrictions. In a PvE scenario, "infinite rage" is roughly equivalent to being a rogue without combat potency, or a paladin who's actually taking damage. And with that said, they can still increase rage gain rate and consistency quite a bit without really approaching infinite rage. And frankly, I doubt they'll ever make the "solo experience" enjoyable unless they acknowledge that warriors with a full set of raid buffs *should* have basically limitless rage.
-----

So there it is. Rage is an interesting mechanic, and the *idea* appeals to me, but their implementation as of TBC leaves much to be desired. I see people in this thread proposing dual-wield tanking as kind of a solution to the low-rage problem, but I think that's essentially misguided thinking. Having enough rage to use *most* of your abilities is fun; suffering from horrendous rage starvation is not fun, and that's the situation we find ourselves in much of the time. Baseline warrior tanking will suffer until the developers take away some of the inherent rage penalties associated with (a) wearing tanking gear, and (b) equipping a shield. It's in everyone's best interests if they make the baseline experience fun, rather than trying to offer alternative tanking styles whose only real objective is avoiding the fact that the baseline experience isn't enjoyable. Endless Rage is another symptom of this flawed thinking on Blizzard's part, another idea that might have seemed like a good idea on paper but hasn't panned out and probably should be baked into the class by default. They need to think about how to make rage feel more like a fun, enabling mechanic, rather than a frustrating inhibitor. As an example, a warrior in an off-tank role is hilariously gimpy; in tanking gear, you're lucky to generate enough rage to eke out a Shield Slam every six seconds, let alone Devastates to fill the gap.

For what it's worth, I think the shift to making attack power (strength in particular) a useful thing to have is great, and long overdue. Expertise was a great change when it was added, the only drawback being that it's still really hard to come by for a newly-70 warrior. However, given that rage generation still appears to be based around a player that has a very high crit chance and *isn't* avoiding damage, as well as the fact that rage from damage output is normalized at anemic levels, I'm skeptical that having more attack power will resolve our rage issues, even if we do connect almost every hit.

Strength will boost our Shield Slam values, meaning that we can equip DPS gear without completely neutering our best ability. I'm glad they cleared up that particular inconsistency. But really, between Devastate, Revenge, and Shield Slam, we *should* be able to solo (and even PvP) pretty effectively right now. However, anyone who's actually gone out in the world tried to do this, attempting to farm or level or whatever, knows that horrendous rage generation is what prevents us from actually using our abilities in this environment, and doing the damage we *should* be doing. And I hope that, at some point, Blizzard figures out that the poor tanking performance of Fury- and Arms-specced warriors isn't necessarily the threat values associated with their skills, but the fact that they can't get enough rage to actually use them unless they're in DPS gear.

In summary, I'd love to see them make the changes I proposed earlier in my post, but I think *on top* of those changes, I think they need to tweak basic rage gain from outgoing damage (i.e. the "normalized" component of rage gained from each hit) up a few notches. Make rage fun, even for people who aren't stacked to the teeth with raid buffs and/or getting brutalized by 25-man raid bosses.

brain9h
08-18-2008, 02:32 PM
I see people in this thread proposing dual-wield tanking as kind of a solution to the low-rage problem,

Not really. Dual wield tanking was used in TBC as a quick-fix for threat generation on bosses where survivability didn't matter because you VASTLY outgeared the encounter.

I don't think anyone here proposed dual wield tanking as a definitive solution to rage generation. We all want to be able to tank with shields and have rage for that, dual wield tanking is another matter entirely.

Kromzul
08-18-2008, 03:49 PM
Not really. Dual wield tanking was used in TBC as a quick-fix for threat generation on bosses where survivability didn't matter because you VASTLY outgeared the encounter.

I don't think anyone here proposed dual wield tanking as a definitive solution to rage generation. We all want to be able to tank with shields and have rage for that, dual wield tanking is another matter entirely.

There were a few proposals for dual wield tanking, and it came up at least a few times that a benefit would be higher rage generation. I'm not saying that everyone had the same idea here, but I do think it would be a mistake for Blizzard to approach dual-wield tanking with this priority in mind.

tobarstep
08-18-2008, 04:48 PM
(1) Modify dodges, parries, misses, and even resists to yield half the rage they would have provided had they connected (adjusted for armor reduction, defensive stance, etc.). The 2-rage on dodge/parry talent is admirable, but it's horribly inconsistent across situations; when tanking AoE packs I'm sure it'll end up with warriors having far more rage than they can spend, but it does virtually nothing for single target tanking, which is where rage starvation is the biggest liability anyway.


One issue I see with that is that in order to even know what would have been, wouldn't we have to go to a 2-roll combat system for PvE? Which would then turn the combat table completely upside down as we currently know it.

Kromzul
08-18-2008, 05:16 PM
One issue I see with that is that in order to even know what would have been, wouldn't we have to go to a 2-roll combat system for PvE? Which would then turn the combat table completely upside down as we currently know it.

You're overstating the difficulty of this a little bit. It wouldn't have to be a 2-roll system, they'd just have to change the dodge and parry operations a little bit to calculate the size of the hit (after being mitigated by armor, etc.). The roll doesn't change, because the probabilities aren't being modified.

T-34/85
08-19-2008, 10:10 AM
Fun - we'll dying isn't fun unless you can do it gloriously... and take somebody (better, several somebodies with you...) I'd like a kamikaze death bubble effect - 30 minute or 1 hour timer - but if it's active and you buy the farm --- then you get the chance to sell a piece of it to the other guy ;-)

T-34/85

Stubbi
08-19-2008, 10:57 AM
My biggest annoyance is threat management over multiple targets as a warrior. It would be fantastic if there was a V (the floaty bars) mode that showed threat. Also, a /targetlowthreat macro addition which would let you auto-target the mob with the lowest threat within rage. Range can be set via macros already so it would be completely controllable. Using this + /targetfocus would dramatically clean up the amount of guesswork currently in the game since we are forced to use third party addons to *guess* threat levels.

It would be nice if our shouts were increased in duration a bit, 2 minutes is just annoying and spending build points to push it to 3 is a kick in the shorts.

Paynifier
08-20-2008, 02:53 PM
I play a paladin tank.

Sometimes I think it is the things we do when we are not tanking that make playing the character more fun or not. If the character isn't fun to play except in a certain role in a certain situation, then you won't be playing that character all the time, and thus slowly fall behind or disinterested in it.

So things that are fun when I'm not tanking:

PVP: I love tossing avenger's shield after I've just re-rezed at a bunch of would be resource flag stealers in AB. Bonus points if it crits or kills one or more. :>

I love defending the mine in AB. And defending it. And defending it. Till finally help arrives to clear out those annoying horde!

I love tossing blessing of protection on my warlock friend when a rogue jumps him.

I cackle gleefully when a mortal strike warrior and I face off, and he mortal strikes me dutifully.. yet I never bother healing the entire fight as he slowly kills himself by standing in my consecrate, getting zotted by holy shield and judgment of right.

Things in pvp that make me sad: mana-burn, resisted stuns, large blasts of magic, fear, crowd control, and dispels.. mass dispel's animation gives me the jitters when I see our priest toss it in a pve fight to clense the raid.

What would be fun to have in pvp: More damage reduction/shields of various sorts for friends. Some form of spell reflection would be amusing... watching a mage sheep itself would probably distract me more than being crowd controlled... well, the first 10 times it happened, anyhow :>

While I don't get tank gear from pvp, I can augment my other sets with it. I've really enjoyed the spell-damage gladiator gear and use it for solo aoe farming, and for tanking instances my normal tanking gear out gears.

Fun while soloing: Aoeing lots of stuff, managing to even heal/tank out of difficult situations by using improved concentration aura.

Triple critting avenger's shield tosses while in my +spell crit/damage gear

Not fun while soloing: Trying to aoe a group of magic users who just won't come stand in my consecrate. Clever buggers.

Downtime drinking/mana regen issues. I hear we are getting an evocation-esque skill, that sounds promising.

As for tanking itself: Fights where you move around are fun.

Back before all my dps were well geared, I could rate on the dps charts, and fighting it out with the best dpsers for the top spot was fun.

The irony of how the better my gear gets, the less heals I get, and thus less mana regen and therefore mana I have to work with is not fun. In farming fights I'd like to do more to make it go faster, not go oom and think up creative ways to hurt myself so my healers will get back to healing (my mana) and stop nuking.

At anyrate, tanking in of itself is usually pretty amusing. You have to watch and make sure everything is running smoothly, know the mobs, their paths and ablities and whatnot. I think where I see other tanks getting frustated is that they are not as easily amused as I am with their ablities outside of tanking. Even I have to respect from raid tank to a weird prot/holy build I use for tanking 5-mans, healing in pvp and soloing, and that's an expensive and annoying habit. Most people wonder why I don't just go ret if I'm respecting to pvp/solo anyhow.

bludwork
08-21-2008, 08:10 AM
I think blizzards imagination and ideas related to tanking has gone stale. As a prot warrior when I hit something I get like 2 rage and hits for less than 200damage. This is supposed to be fun?

Tanking is fun like solving a math problem, not fun like playing beach volleyball with the girls at your local beach.

bloodowl
08-21-2008, 10:21 AM
Playing a warrior tank, AOE tanking is not fun sure thunderclap does help does not really help much when DPS start crit and gain aggro very quick.

THEY need to FIX the warrior and make it FUN!

Wartank
08-21-2008, 08:28 PM
No matter the talents we have, the fun in tanking is creating order, doing a great job which sometimes leads to recognition. Lets face it, its no fun if it takes no skill. So there needs to remain a skill level requirement to separate the good from the bad from the truly great.

That said its frustrating walking into a 5 man with similarly geared players out gearing the instance and having to dumb down our gear for rage to give us some sort of chance of holding threat.

An example of how tough it can get pugging, which isnt fun!, was my hramps run yesterday. I had 1 CC, which is fine done it many times that way. Im generally tanking 3 targets, but the healer is pulling aggro massively. Im wearing items to generate more threat to handle the dps of around 900-1k. It turns out the healer doesnt have threat reduction points, so do i look good with my intervene and taunt? No not at all, all other people see is i cant hold aggro. So i now have that target under control, but whats happened? Of course skull is now beating on the dps and the 3rd tanked mob is a Milli second away from heading to healer. What to do? Intervene and taunt on cool down, im hardly being hit so have no rage. Ok so i figure out the problem and spend more time on X and diamond, only to have dps pulling skull and complaining about my poor threat on it. I know soon as i chase skull ill lose threat on other targets to the healer. This run has left a very bitter after taste for me, as u guys can probably tell :P.

Now in SSC/ TK i generally pull around 1500tps sometimes more, but it drops due to rage generation in 5 mans, and any little mishap like the above just makes us the tank look bad. Its any wonder we get gun shy with pugs.
To get back to the point of whats is fun. Its having the skill to controlling chaos (multi tanking). But id like to see us with abilities/ mechanics more in line with what other class offer which make them far more popular for pug groups. And for all tanks to be similar enough for skill to be the No1 factor in selecting a tank for a heroic, raid MT.

Irghen
08-27-2008, 05:02 PM
I speak as a warrior, I haven't tried other tanking classes but I think this would be a fun niche for the Warrior.

Positioning control
You ever felt like a wrecking ball? I think that's most of the fun the class has to offer, in any of its specs. You're the guy who, as long as the party can keep up is gonna be pulling, pushing, shoving, scaring, sweeping, stunning, yelling and generally being a pain in the arse of your enemies, be it mobs or live pvp opponents.
That feeling of being indestructible as long as you have a healer is FUN, from the Last stand mechanics we already have to the suggestions available in this thread, they point to that.
Being in "The middle of the Hurricane" also makes you responsible of mantaining control over the fight, which is really, really fun.

Some examples of this are:

Shield Bashing a caster to pull him.
Concussion a melee and running away from him.
Intervene -> Taunt -> Intercept
Pulling mobs.
Pushing mobs (You know, when you step into their circle and force them to reposition till you have them where you want).

i say expand on that, trash tanking is fun if you can control it. Having these kind abilities useable on boss mobs would be a balance nightmare of course but throwing stunneable adds to bossfight could be an answer

Some ideas from yours truly:

Charging Star

Your Charge ability has a 50/75% chance of knocking your target and every other hostile target in a 10 yard radius of your target by 15 yards; in addition, your Intercept and Intervene abilities have a 25%/50% chance of knocking your target back 5 yards.


Cookies to whoever gets the name reference. And yeah, I mean your friendly intervene target. Trust me nothing's gonna be funnier than intervening that overaggroing lock and throwing him down a cliff to his death. But besides that, it'd feel as being a bowling ball, creating some interesting opening decisions (shoot-pull or break their line?) as well as more options without adding more buttons to our already cluttered bars, I mean, giving your healer a headstart against te big bad pursuing mob can't be a bad thing. Please pay no attention to the fact that this would also be awesome in PvP.

Adding a knock down mechanic to stuff like revenge and cleave or even TC might also add to the experience but I have no idea how that'd work.

I'd also like to see some grapple mechanics although that may be on the Fury/Arms side of the die as some form of rudimentary CC.

And in the interest of bigass numbers how about this:
Add an option to the Floating combat text to show you your threat not your damage.

Groundchuck
09-03-2008, 09:08 PM
Warrior specific.

Decapitator is extremely fun. The long range, instant attack. Pulling, finishing off a run-away mob. I still carry it around in BT and Sunwell. I would love a shield throw. Weapon throw is cool, but shield would feel uniquely "tanky". Maybe throw weapon in battle/zerker and shield throw in def. All the same ability.

Big shield slams. Prot doing lots of damage is fun.

Out-dpsing "pure dps" players as dual-wield devastate. My best is 1677 dps on gorefiend, felt pretty good.

Stance dancing. It feel uniquely "warrior" and it reminds me that I do something that other tanks can't. (This changed substantially when horde got fearward. It really became a snorefest tank and spank then.)

Gimmick fights are fun when it's my gimmick. Illidan and pre-fearward fear fights come to mind.

Tanking dragons is fun. They're big, and they're dragons.

Huge weapons are fun. (I think blizz has this under control.)

Using passive uncrushable to solo things that don't hit very hard is fun.