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View Full Version : Healers, Healers, Healers.



Thanassos
08-13-2008, 11:24 PM
Hey guys. I'm the current MT in my guild atm we've hit 4/5 Hyjal and 4/9 BT after a fortnight of raiding, and the cracks in the healers that I saw even back in Kara are starting to show.

The problem is however, 3/7 Regular healers are guild founders, but they are also at the bottom of the healing meters every time, and not just by a little.

Alot of them fail to precast (especially in hyjal the two pally healers don't precast and sometimes the pally tank gets insta-gibbed) as a result I have the Raid Healing resto shammies precast big heals on the pally tank and Abom tanks.

Now, the one thing our worst healers have in common is that they ALL use an Addon called Healbot. I've used this addon on my healer and hated it with a pashion, basically what I get back from the healers is that they don't heal until their healbot says that the target has taken damage, and they refuse to see it as their bad. Most of them literally sit there clicking away on their healbot and not focusing on the field of battle as a result people die.

Now the biggest problem is that, we have replacements for these healers however being guild founders they refuse to give up their spots, or ask other better healers (That have been in the guild for a shorter period of time) to sub out so we can see how they do.

It's at the point where it's costing us progression, especially on bloodboil. The rage target has died EVERYTIME because the healers don't start casting on the target right away instead wait for theit healbot to tell them the targets been damaged...

What do I do?

Silthias
08-14-2008, 02:37 AM
WWS stats might be worth it, find the bits showing them not healing and others doing it to keep the player alive, and take them to a side and confront them with it. If they are reasonable people they will act on it, if not well the raid will not progress so leave it at that. Find a new guild if no joy.

Regards,

Silthias

Inaara
08-14-2008, 12:35 PM
I absolutely LOVE healing and the only mod I can stand using is Grid. Healers that don't know how to pre-cast and cancel have no hope of ever being a good healer.

Priest btw.

xenogriff
08-14-2008, 09:12 PM
Speaking as a MT for Kara and ZA, i love seeing healers casting while i'm running towards any mobs.

That being said, I recently had drama in guild where our MH went berserk on another healer coz that particular healer was also using that mod. This was mainly due to the fact that she was basically doing all the work while he overhealed since she was precasting while he was waiting on Healbot.

Having tried this mod on my restor shammy, i have to say personally I hate it. Healing for me is situational and i need to watch whats going on while watching life bars. Watching that mod's warning makes the timing go funny.

If ur guildies, founding members or not were agreeable, mebbe try asking them to run without it for a while just to see if it improves their healing. who know they might enjoy healing a bit more then

orcstar
08-15-2008, 07:49 AM
You're blaming the mod for bad play while it's the players that play bad.

My tank is my new main and my former main is a healing shaman. Healbot, when used well is a very nice addition to the tools you have to heal in a fight.
Blame your healers for not using the correct tools. Healbot is good for raidhealing, but less for Main Tank healing.

But what you describe is another problem: your boys are reactive healer instead of active healers. Especially on the MT it's very bad to reactive heal. Paladin tanks running in and dying on aobmination waves is just unacceptible. If a thing like this happens there's a big tactical problem in your healing department and changes should be made. Deaths happen, bad luck happens, you sometimes have to accept that and just do another try. But palatanks getting gibbed is not a situation which you can let go by. Maybe not during the raid but this is a thing that needs to be discussed with your healers. Tactical problems need to be adressed.

Your healers relying only on healbot to tell them who to heal aren't doing their job. They forget healbot is only a tool in an arsenal of tools.
On the fel rage target a macro like:
/cast[target=focustarget]Healing Wave
Is superior to any addon you can have. (where ofcourse bloodboil is your focus)

Well, to make things short: don't blame a good tool because people use it wrong.
Mosty comes down to:
When raid is taking damage, healbot will make healing a lot easier.
When healing primarily 1 target, you should just target the person you are healing and use and precast your different ranks of heals.


Ohhhhh, and bloodboil is a b* of a fight. Give your healers some time to learn it. It IS a very very nasty fight to heal if you're there first. While we were killing Illidan we still had wipes often on bloodboil. If you want to lose healers vent all your frustration and tell your healers how bad they are. And btw bring 9 healers maybe even 10 to bloodboil if you haven't killed him yet.

Well so much for a coherent story but I hope it gets the message through.
(We always hoped and prayed no mage got fel rage :P:P)
And it's hard to compare healers, reading your story I got the feeling your "oldies" are paladins and the new/better performing guys are shamans. Well at the level you play, shamans will always be above paladins on healing meters.

Sangi
08-15-2008, 09:44 AM
I've used this addon on my healer and hated it with a pashion, basically what I get back from the healers is that they don't heal until their healbot says that the target has taken damage, and they refuse to see it as their bad.

Healbot is a tool. Just as click casting and raid frames are. If your healers don't know how to pre-cast, stop cast, maximize their OOC time, and anticipate spikes in damage and be ready for them it is not the mods fault. It is theirs. I use it on my priest. I also do all the things I listed above. And have out healed min T5 geared healers when Im in mostly T4. Don't blame bad playing on the tools that people use.
/rantoff

It sounds like you have a bad player issue. I try pointing the people to the proper resources out on EJ, the class forums and class sites. I also try and have their class leader talk to them to give them some tips. If none of these work I just stop inviting those people to raids. That doesn't sound like an option for you.

If you have a healing raid leader have them speak with these guys and basically tell them how to heal the fight, pre-casting and all. I know its a level of micro management that shouldn't need to be done but some times you ave to take people by the hand.

loquatious
08-17-2008, 06:28 AM
I use healbot on my shaman healer, but Grid or Clique or Raid frames - its all the same. I think its essential to a healer to see raid wide damage, even if your job is tank healing.

That being said main tank healing is all about dropping the big bombs in synch with another healer and canceling if the heal would be wasted.

Ceravantes
08-18-2008, 05:47 AM
Being a founding member of a raiding guild should never be relevant to a discussion over raid spots. For progression raiding, democracy just won't work, this is not a situation where you can ask nicely for them to sit out, they need to be told that they are underperforming and that until that changes they won't be getting raid spots.

Things like this can easily lead to your guild comepletely falling apart. You can be sure you are not the only person in your raid noticing this, and when the "members" of your guild see that they get away with it, and get raid spots over better players, they will easily become disgruntled. The first time one of these poor players takes a piece of loot someone else wants, or after multiple nights of wiping because of them, you will have losses, especially in the healing department. It isn't worth that when it can, and should be, taken care of now before any problems arise.

Corrodin
08-18-2008, 12:08 PM
The old addage, if the tank dies its the healer's fault, if the healer dies it is the tanks fault, and if the DPS dies its the DPS' fault kind of applies here.

I have never raid healed in my wow career nor would I like to. But I have lead raids and guilds long enough to know that what you are describing is bad news bears.

Why make 24 people suffer because of one, or w/e numbers are needed for your example.

WWS will show where people are lacking and is a great program to get used to.

Also start some sort of a rule that if you are lacking you will get replace no matter position in the guild. Some use 3 strikes, lol my current guild uses one strike and you are out of the raid. It works. So say the pally tank healers let him get insta-gibbed, replace them because the rule was set into motion prior to raid.

Raiding guilds want to progress, others want to raid and get candy canes and HJs just for showing up.

Bonerot
08-18-2008, 01:14 PM
Can WWS show who is precasting and who is not? I mean how do you get credit for dropping that life saving heal vs just letting the tank drop down and cast a large heal.

orcstar
08-18-2008, 02:12 PM
Be very very sure that before you cast an upgrage over healing you know you are right.

No precasting is bad.

But.......looking at healingmeters and look who is on top or not............it all depends on class and job in raid. In BT Shamans will almost always outheal the paladins by a large margin.
[edit]
Whenever I want to "spy" on a player I select him and type /focus. My unit frames (pitbull) show who is focused and also what health he has and what he's casting. It helped me give some lazy players a kick in their behind and become less lazy. (darn I hate the players who only perform well on bosses and watch tele on trash while they could have helped make it faster.) This way you can easily see if someone is precasting. Also the visual showing of incoming heals is nice.

Ceravantes
08-19-2008, 12:08 PM
Can WWS show who is precasting and who is not? I mean how do you get credit for dropping that life saving heal vs just letting the tank drop down and cast a large heal.

no, but you don't need too see that to know who is doing what they are supposed to. Through overhealing, mana and ability usage, effective ehaling etc. it is easy to tell who is healing reactively. This works for tanks as well, checking ability usage etc., once you have done it a couple times you can guess your tps pretty accurately without parsing it at all.

Elyvern
08-20-2008, 12:37 AM
This is a very very good question.

My mage's guild is now trying to consistently down Brutallus to get some attempts at Felymst. Our problem is our tanks (1 feral druid, 1 prot war) have a tendency to go from 100% health to 0% in 1.5 seconds. We're now looking for a mod that lets people see when healers are casting so we can somewhat 'de-scyn' the heals to make sure there is always a heal landing on the MTs every second.

python
09-24-2008, 01:14 PM
We're now looking for a mod that lets people see when healers are casting so we can somewhat 'de-scyn' the heals to make sure there is always a heal landing on the MTs every second.

Elyvern, look up a mod named VisualHeal. It will help healers (and tanks) see when healers start casting heals, and will estimate how much overhealing will occur. I have to admit my guild hasn't pushed its use onto our healers since back when we started working on HKM/Gruul. I think as we got through that content some of our healers definitely improved, and it was no longer as much of an issue. (I'm speaking more of preheals here than overhealing issues. Ultimately, as long as bosses are going down without wipes, we don't worry too much about the overheals.)

Schleppy
09-24-2008, 04:20 PM
I had a similar problem with an old guild that ended up breaking the guild apart. 3 of the guild officers were in every raid they were online for, in mostly epic gear, and they consistently were the worst choices for anything but raid healing because they were reactive and not proactive healers, and it cost us nights of banging our heads into a wall not progressing because they assigned themselves to heal the main tank(s) all the time.

Good luck with that one, if they dont/cant see reason, you have little choice but to go with other options, including making it clear to the guild why you aren't progressing.

protonly
09-24-2008, 04:39 PM
No disrespect but maybe your healers just suck. I've tried grid and tbh I hated it. I use Healbot because as a pally it works the best for me. I precast like a mofo though because ... I'm not a moron. (Actually I used to play with horrible lag and I had to do it b/c I'd not see health bars move.)

I've been wanting to try Grid again but I just love the simplicity of Healbot. *Shrug*

Fayre
09-24-2008, 06:21 PM
I'm a healer.

With respect, if they haven't learned to precast by this point, you're looking at a losing battle. The addon is irrelevant, it's just a tool like any other. Learning to precast is what healers should be doing in Karazhan, not Black Temple and Mount Hyjal.

This problem isn't going to disappear overnight. You need to start taking action. Otherwise you're right, it'll cost you progression, and ultimately it'll cost you guild members. You can't be the only one who realises this is a problem.

Do you post WWS reports in your guild? Minor things like this (especially when you're dealing with people who are performing noticeably badly) can really help kickstart them into thinking 'hm, why am I last on this fight?' Start late night after-raid discussions (when you know the 'bad' healers are listening) with the good healers you have... That sort of thing. Occasionally I'll use death reports from Recount to pinpoint how people died 'hm yeah guys, the last heal before TankB died was HealerC 15 seconds before he died, wasn't HealerD assigned to him?'

Ultimately, if they don't sit up and improve, then you're going to have to consider making a stand. A confrontation isn't nice, but if you have the majority of the guild agreeing with you, and you have replacements waiting in the wings, you might be better off in the long run making a bit of a fuss.

Thanassos
09-29-2008, 05:47 AM
Sorry forgot about this thread :) Well in the end I said enough is enough and literally took the players that had the skill and the ability and formed another guild.

It may sound harsh, but I pretty much said "Those who think they are the decent players, want to progress and enjoy raiding please send me a tell when I get into the new guild" Funny thing is, I was accepting anyone, even the social members and yet the healers didn't bother sending me a tell :)

Anyway, we pretty much took a group vote and decided not to continue 25 man raiding this close to WOTLK, and are just getting everyone who doesn't have one a bear mount etc etc.

Sythanara
10-20-2008, 09:28 PM
I've always looked at the tank and healer positions as somewhat symbiotic in nature. Whenever I have difficulty with a healer's method of healing me I try to tactfully discuss it with them in a sideboard conversation and not in front of the entire raid group. Currently I co-tank T6 content on Earthen Ring and for the most part I find that most healers (for that matter most other classes) have their game down pretty pat by the time they've hit Hyjal and BT and there isn't much need for teaching anyone new things other than the event strategies.

Now where I do have problems is generally in the T4 content. New level 70's learning to spread their wings and generally making mistakes and hopefully learning from them along the way. A T6 geared warrior can still get a beating in Karazhan if his party is scrubbed. So here is where I take allot of "upfront" time in explaining exactly how each action group is to perform. Here is where I do not mind telling anyone how to do their job (in private sideboard of course,) because many are still learning their class.

mavfin
10-20-2008, 09:51 PM
I remember our group's healers had to learn to pre-cast to get us through Emps in AQ40. Four or five healers per tank (I was one of the two tanks) was still ending up with dead tanks, because some of those healers were reactive. Once they learned how to do it right, all the other content we did became a lot easier too. BWL became 'easy', and the early side of AQ40 at that time became 'easy', too, because the tanks didn't get gibbed nearly so much.

Pizzashark
10-20-2008, 11:23 PM
If you want to avoid guild drama - usually the smartest course of action - tell them to stop relying on their mods and just use their brains instead. I would recommend using Quartz for cast times, since it's much more reliable than the default castbars.

Regardless of what you do, the best solution is to drop dead weight in your raids. For 25 mans, maybe you do need to drag them along so they can get their free loot, but with WotLK changing the standard to either 25-man or 10-man for any raid, people that aren't pulling their weight around are apt to get dropped in a hurry, regardless of class/spec.

What position they have in the guild should be irrelevant in terms of who gets spots into raids and who doesn't - until you've got it on farm status, the best performers are the ones that get the raid slots, whether they're a raw recruit or a guild founder.