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Huor
08-13-2008, 09:10 PM
so i am a Bloozfrenzy buffing arms warrior. my guild runs a melee group and we are in late black temple early sunwell content. lately our rogue officer ( just having gotten the off hand warglave) has been shafting me out of the melee group that consists of him another rogue a fury warrior an enhancement shaman and a feral druid ( this was my spot) for the 5% crit bonus. tell me am i crazy to think that w/o windfury im practically useless?. he dosn;t really care because he gets teh 4% dmg bonus from bloodfreny no matter what group im in but im finding it hard to maintain my slam rotation not to mention the missing strength buffs from teh enhancement shaman make me hit like a wet noodle.

ebs2002
08-13-2008, 10:55 PM
Between a Fury warrior and an Arms warrior in the melee group (with an enh shammy), the arms warrior should get it every time but one: if fury war has Solarian's Sapphire and you don't.

Otherwise, windfury and Str of Earth totems provide a bigger boon to an arms war than a fury warrior (percentage-wise), and both warriors should provide the same benefits to the rest of the group.

The feral druid deserves the spot for +5% crit given to the group; the enh shammy is required; the rogues are raw melee and can't give anything to any other group.

Brucimus
08-13-2008, 11:08 PM
Dont trust rogues

Tatt
08-14-2008, 07:11 AM
Not sure I agree with you ebs....I think we all agree that with equal gear a fury warrior will outdamage an arms warrior, so considering that everyone get's BF no matter what group he is in, wouldn't you want the biggest damage dealers to get the most buffs?

Caireagin
08-14-2008, 07:50 AM
A fury warrior will out dps an arms warrior, all things being equal. But the dps increase an arms warrior gains from windfury is generally larger than what the fury warrior will recieve.

That said, I think it's unlikely that removing the fury warrior from the melee dps group is a viable option for his guild.

Your best option, Huor, is to talk to your raid leader and suggest switching the melee group composition each week to determine what provides the best overall raid dps. It may very well end up being the current setup. But you might be pleasently surprised by the results.

Tatt
08-14-2008, 07:52 AM
Can someone explain why an arms warrior gets more benefit from windfury? I do not know much about arms (always enjoyed fury more) so I would be curious as to the math :)

Caireagin
08-14-2008, 09:04 AM
Well, I'm not 100% solid on the math of windfury, but I'll give it a very rough shot. I'd appreciate it if someone with more experience theorycrafting for dps would make corrections or point to a more solid analysis.

Let's take a 5 minute long fight. In those 300 seconds, a 2.8 speed weapon(Syphon of the Nathrezim, what Huor's guild's fury warrior is using) will swing 107 times. During that same time, Huor's Soul Cleaver, a 3.7 speed weapon, will swing 81 times.

Windfury has a 20% proc rate, so the fury warrior get 21.4 procs. The arms warrior will get 16.2 procs.

The Syphon's average damage is 230.5 per hit, the Soul Cleaver's average is 482.5.

Assuming all other stats being equal(which they won't be, but determining the exact difference would be rather time consuming), the fury warrior will do an average of 4932.7 windfury damage just from his weapon. The arms warrior will do an average of 7816.5 damage just from his weapon.

Differences in AP and crit rate will close the gap, but overall, the arms warrior should still come out ahead by a decent margin(I'd expect 10-20%).

Tatt
08-14-2008, 09:07 AM
ok, dumb question, is that taking flurry into account?

Caireagin
08-14-2008, 09:21 AM
Flurry was not taken into account. I just threw that into the "all other stats being equal" section, but I didn't consider the fact that an arms warrior will only 3/5 flurry. I don't believe that that will be a significant enough increase for the fury warrior to pass the arms warrior, but it's possible, I suppose.

phaze
08-14-2008, 09:28 AM
Can someone explain why an arms warrior gets more benefit from windfury?
Windfury = free swings.

If the swing is free, it's worth more if it hits harder; you don't look at DPS, but rather per-swing damage.

2H weapons hit harder than 1H weapons for two reasons:
1) better base damage (2H weapons are roughly 130% the white damage of equal-level 1H weapons)
2) slower speed (the bonus AP from Windfury also benefits slower weapons more).

Additionally, only the MH swings are affected by WF Totem, which means more of the 2H damage is affected than the equivalent 2x1H setup.

Therefore, 2H weapons gain more from Windfury than 1H weapons.

This is why you really want your Arms Warrior and Ret Paladin to have WF; they're the ones in the raid using big slow weapons.

The extra swings also supply other benefits such as more rage and more weapon-enchant procs, but this occurs for Fury Warriors too. However, the extra swings themselves (not just their damage) also fuels the Retadin mechanics, which have some reliance on swing-based procs.

Kazeyonoma
08-14-2008, 09:50 AM
Simple solution... Find another shaman to give you windfury =P

Tizack
08-14-2008, 02:30 PM
Not sure I agree with you ebs....I think we all agree that with equal gear a fury warrior will outdamage an arms warrior, so considering that everyone get's BF no matter what group he is in, wouldn't you want the biggest damage dealers to get the most buffs?

i agree with that. when i am in the enhancement shaman group and feral druid group. i do a lot more DPS than an arms warrior with Unleashed Rage i am hitting 4.8k AP pretty easily which is better for a Fury warrior than a Arms warrior cuz Bloodthirst damage is based off of AP.

ebs2002
08-14-2008, 03:25 PM
Windfury gives more swings, which will give more damage to an arms warrior than a fury warrior as already outlined above so I won't reiterate it.

Also, though, it gives more rage. A fury warrior with more rage will dump it into Heroic Strike, which is a pretty low damage-to-rage ratio (it replaces an attack, so you're really only adding the HS-dmg bonus, plus the fact that it won't miss like a white attack would).

However, an arms warrior would convert this extra rage into an extra WW or Mortal Strike that he would have otherwise had to skip (since you prioritize slam above those two, they're the first thing to get skipped when rage is low). That extra rage turns into an instant-damage attack that does weapon damage + a high amount. A much larger return than the fury warrior with heroic strike.

So, while it really depends on the warriors, the arms warrior gets a much higher DPS benefit from having those buffs than the Fury warrior does, and if one has to sit out of the melee group, it should be the fury warrior, until such a point in time that the fury warrior out-gears the arms warrior to such an extent that he gets more of a benefit.

I'm just guessing here, but I'm guessing that for most guilds who are pushing high-end T6/Sunwell, this isn't common, unless the arms warrior is a recent prot-conversion with crappy gear, or he doesn't know how to slam-rotate properly.

Huor
08-14-2008, 04:24 PM
basically what im gathering is that while wind fury is nice for both a fury and an arms warrior ( duh ) the increase to an arms warrior's DMG is significantly more than that of a fury warrior. correct?

Durl
08-14-2008, 04:52 PM
basically what im gathering is that while wind fury is nice for both a fury and an arms warrior ( duh ) the increase to an arms warrior's DMG is significantly more than that of a fury warrior. correct?

Yes all of his white damage attack are effected by windfury, rather than just the main hand.

Durl
08-14-2008, 04:55 PM
Bleh.

Huor
08-14-2008, 08:58 PM
soo basically the reasoning for not having me in the wind fury group is the fury warrior and 2 rogues do more dmg than i do. ( duh) the only way they would put me in the group would be if i out damaged one of them or the druid had to tank a fight ( that happens three times in a BT clear)

Chosenx
08-14-2008, 10:31 PM
Does this take into account slam changing the amount of white hits that the arms warrior will have in that time? Because it resets the swing timer, the amount of swings will be less.

But surely the dps benefit to a better geared player will be higher than a lesser geared one, unless your aim is to level out the 2 warriors to be near each other?

Durl
08-14-2008, 10:43 PM
soo basically the reasoning for not having me in the wind fury group is the fury warrior and 2 rogues do more dmg than i do. ( duh) the only way they would put me in the group would be if i out damaged one of them or the druid had to tank a fight ( that happens three times in a BT clear)

Is the feral in the group with the rogues? If so, then that is wrong. Its general better to stick the feral with the hunters (since grace of air is the best totem for both of them) rather than gimp somebody by not giving them windfury.

Huor
08-14-2008, 10:43 PM
Does this take into account slam changing the amount of white hits that the arms warrior will have in that time? Because it resets the swing timer, the amount of swings will be less.

But surely the dps benefit to a better geared player will be higher than a lesser geared one, unless your aim is to level out the 2 warriors to be near each other?
we use nearly identical gear ( different gems ) and a few pices different but in general nearly the same ( hes a siphon and a warglave off hand) that said it would be really tough to get him to not be in the group pretty much

Kazeyonoma
08-15-2008, 02:16 AM
slam when used properly will only reset .5 seconds of any given swing. and any attack can fire off a windfury attack, not just white hits.

phaze
08-15-2008, 07:23 AM
and any attack can fire off a windfury attack, not just white hits.

They disabled WF procs for specials 1 year ago (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=451065104). Have they re-enabled them?

Tatt
08-15-2008, 08:07 AM
Windfury can definately proc off specials, or I have gone blind and stupid watching my computer screen too long (which is always possible)

Huor
08-15-2008, 08:15 AM
Windfury can definately proc off specials, or I have gone blind and stupid watching my computer screen too long (which is always possible)
i was under the impression it only proced off of white hits. they nerfed it to kill spamstring from what i remember could always be wrong though i am by no means an expert on this subject

Huor
08-15-2008, 08:19 AM
Is the feral in the group with the rogues? If so, then that is wrong. Its general better to stick the feral with the hunters (since grace of air is the best totem for both of them) rather than gimp somebody by not giving them windfury.

yes she is in the melee group to buff the 2 rogues the fury warrior and the enhance shammy with LoTP. we have always been light on shamans( we run with like 3, 1 of each spec) so the hunters usually get the shaft along with the warlocks when it comes to groups.

Durl
08-15-2008, 12:49 PM
Windfury can definately proc off specials, or I have gone blind and stupid watching my computer screen too long (which is always possible)

You've gone blind.

Kazeyonoma
08-16-2008, 01:11 AM
I'll try to test this this weekend if I can get my shaman on to try it. I'm almost positive I've fired it off of yellows.

Arrivan
08-16-2008, 05:18 AM
As best I remember it only works off white attacks and "on next attack" attacks. Basically you can proc it off white hits, Heroic Strike and Cleave. That could be the source of yellow attacks firing off WF.

Tatt
08-16-2008, 07:53 AM
At least Durl said I had gone blind, not stupid. :)

Kazeyonoma
08-16-2008, 11:23 AM
ah, it's the heroic strikes proc'ing it, nm.

shiz98
08-16-2008, 02:24 PM
Just to nitpick here...

Because WF is a percentage based proc, it's going to buff different weapon speeds equally. It's a flat 20% increase to white dps of the main hand weapon. If it buffed both weapons, your Fury warrior would definitely gain more benefit in the white dps front. Take the OH weapon out of the equation, and you've got a different story. Weapon speed has nothing to do with it.

Example:
Weapon 1 - 120 DPS, 3.6 speed; hits for 432
Weapon 2 - 120 DPS, 1.2 speed; hits for 144

Over 60 seconds,
Weapon 1 - 16.67 hits; 3.33 extra WF attacks
Weapon 2 - 50 hits; 10 extra WF attacks

Extra WF damage is 1426 for weapon 1, and 1440 for weapon 2. I'm going to blame rounding for the difference.

Tatt
08-16-2008, 03:08 PM
ummmm.....who uses a 1.2 speed weapon? Fury warriors use slow/slow until they get glaives....my MH is 2.5

shiz98
08-16-2008, 09:42 PM
Yeah, I was just trying to illustrate the point.

Durl
08-16-2008, 10:47 PM
Yeah, I was just trying to illustrate the point.

Bottom line is the reason its better for 2handed weapon is because it affects every single one of their white attacks thus can be assumed that its a 20% increase in white dps. Since it only affects the mainhand for dual wielders, its only a 20% increase in the mainhand portion of their white dps.

fastidius
08-17-2008, 04:05 PM
shrug personally i think the issue is rage. Fury do not suffer from rage drain meaning they can always keep their cycle and add Heroic strikes as needed to dump extras.

Arms however have to skip items if rage doesn't arrive in time and thus the extra rage actually allows them to maintain their optimum rotation as well as gain the same or similar dps gains from the buff itself.


more swings = more rage and an arms warrior needs the rage to become more effective, a dual wielder is less rage drained due to the amount of extra hits he can land.

Huor
08-17-2008, 04:19 PM
shrug personally i think the issue is rage. Fury do not suffer from rage drain meaning they can always keep their cycle and add Heroic strikes as needed to dump extras.

Arms however have to skip items if rage doesn't arrive in time and thus the extra rage actually allows them to maintain their optimum rotation as well as gain the same or similar dps gains from the buff itself.


more swings = more rage and an arms warrior needs the rage to become more effective, a dual wielder is less rage drained due to the amount of extra hits he can land.
thats 90% of where i am coming form. unless its a fight thats heavy on unavoidable raid aoe ( najentus, terron phase 3 ros and teh like) without wind fury i basically am reduced to praying for white crits and dropping whirlwind and MS sometimes rom my rotation to be able to apply demo shout and slam correctly

Schleppy
08-18-2008, 12:05 AM
The true benefit of windfury to a warrior in pve is NOT the extra damage coming directly from the windfury attacks.

The true benefit is the extra rage. To find out where windfury helps more, calculate how much extra rage it generates for a arms warrior and a fury warrior. I would guess it generates about 15-20% extra rage as compared to without it in that same 1 minute span, where for fury it generates 5-10% extra rage. Even a slightly undergeared fury warrior has little to no rage issues in keeping their rotation going smoothly, where overgeared arms warriors sometimes still have issues using their free GCD's on WW and MS. The damage bonus from the extra rage is what makes it more worthwhile to an arms warrior and just "another neat thing" for a fury warrior. (not saying it's bad for fury warriors, the druid shouldnt be in that group to begin with!.)

Corbusier
08-18-2008, 03:29 PM
Bottom line is the reason its better for 2handed weapon is because it affects every single one of their white attacks thus can be assumed that its a 20% increase in white dps. Since it only affects the mainhand for dual wielders, its only a 20% increase in the mainhand portion of their white dps.

The AP bonus affects both hands for dual wielders, so it's closer than you assume.

Huor
08-18-2008, 03:37 PM
the whole problem is the thinking that buffing the 4 best melee dps as much as possible is better than buffing me so i can pull respectable dps. the 2 rogues and teh fury warrior and the enhance shammy are in teh top 10 every fight barring early deaths etc. the druid is there for the crit if she wasn't in that group shed be in the tank group or with the 1 maybe 2 hunters we bring.
i can;t nessasarally prove that me losing windfury harms over all raid dps since it buffs some of our best dps even more it fucks me right in the ass make no mistake but i can not seem to come up with a valid argument to justify everything.

Corbusier
08-18-2008, 03:57 PM
the druid is there for the crit if she wasn't in that group shed be in the tank group or with the 1 maybe 2 hunters we bring.everything.

She SHOULD be in with the hunters, druids get no benefit from windfury in forms.

Tatt
08-18-2008, 03:59 PM
No but she gives the fury warrior and the rogues 5% crit, not sure if enhance shammy also getsthat buff.

Corbusier
08-18-2008, 04:07 PM
No but she gives the fury warrior and the rogues 5% crit, not sure if enhance shammy also getsthat buff.

I'm aware of that, but groups of
hunter
hunter
hunter
resto/ele shammy
feral

rogue
rogue
rogue/fury
arms warrior
enh shaman

Are much better groups for raid DPS because they have better synergies. The feral boosts the hunters' crit while also benefitting from the GoA totem.

Tatt
08-18-2008, 04:07 PM
Gotcha, was too lazy to scroll up and look at the group setup, my mistake :)

Huor
08-18-2008, 04:24 PM
thing is we rarely run with enough hunters to make a group like that up. its usually a tank group melee group caster group and left overs/extra groups

Durl
08-18-2008, 04:36 PM
thing is we rarely run with enough hunters to make a group like that up. its usually a tank group melee group caster group and left overs/extra groups

So stick the prot warrior to fill the 'hunter' group to increase his threat.

Sanelora
08-19-2008, 05:44 AM
ummmm.....who uses a 1.2 speed weapon? Fury warriors use slow/slow until they get glaives....my MH is 2.5

I know warriors who use a MH warglaive and a fast offhand. though it doesnt provide optimum damage from WW and flurry, it DOES mean more stable rage generation (as with a tank) and faster MH swings.

i read somewhere that using a fast weapon in the OH when you have the gear to go into sunwell doesnt have any negative effect on overall DPS. i am not sure though

Tatt
08-19-2008, 07:28 AM
There are only two times that I have ever seen the math work that would make a fast OH work for fury: 1. If they have BOTH glaives, because of the haste proc, or when you get to execute range to build rage quicker for execute spam. I toyed with the idea of getting molten fury gloves for a while, even with the bathe in fire proc the fast OH would have still gimped me.

phaze
08-19-2008, 09:25 AM
The AP bonus affects both hands for dual wielders, so it's closer than you assume.
I don't claim to be fully up to speed on WF mechanics, but I'm not seeing how WF Totem (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=25587) affects the OH weapon. Am I missing something?

Huor
08-19-2008, 03:34 PM
I don't claim to be fully up to speed on WF mechanics, but I'm not seeing how WF Totem (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=25587) affects the OH weapon. Am I missing something?

i think hes talking about the AP bonuses of being in the enhance shaman group.

Skiba
08-20-2008, 09:38 AM
I'm aware of that, but groups of
hunter
hunter
hunter
resto/ele shammy
feral

rogue
rogue
rogue/fury
arms warrior
enh shaman

Are much better groups for raid DPS because they have better synergies. The feral boosts the hunters' crit while also benefitting from the GoA totem.

Since most guilds don't carry 2 enhance shaman in a raid, the 4 melee are getting an extra person's crit bonus from the feral vs. 3 hunters and resto/ele shaman, but also giving the feral about 1000 AP between BS, UR, and SoE (the resto might drop SoE or UR might do more if you druid has tons of AP, whatever). Helps with flurry and UR uptime as well. Haven't done the math, but I would guess that 1000 AP is better than GoA for the druid's dps. Something to consider when making your groups, especially if you have a high dps feral.

Huor
08-20-2008, 11:34 AM
Since most guilds don't carry 2 enhance shaman in a raid, the 4 melee are getting an extra person's crit bonus from the feral vs. 3 hunters and resto/ele shaman, but also giving the feral about 1000 AP between BS, UR, and SoE (the resto might drop SoE or UR might do more if you druid has tons of AP, whatever). Helps with flurry and UR uptime as well. Haven't done the math, but I would guess that 1000 AP is better than GoA for the druid's dps. Something to consider when making your groups, especially if you have a high dps feral.
honestly i don't think her dps is considered at all when making groups. shes a tank first and dpses on one tank fights

Skiba
08-20-2008, 12:45 PM
Even if no one cares about your poor druid, (4 X 5%) > (3 X 5%).

phaze
08-20-2008, 01:37 PM
Even if no one cares about your poor druid, (4 X 5%) > (3 X 5%).
(3 x 5% + 1 more DPSer utilizing WF) > ( 4 x 5%)