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Taelas
08-13-2008, 04:58 AM
I've seen several people who claim that Titan's Grip is in fact not worth it currently. I haven't seen any hard numbers to that effect, however.

Currently, TG allows you to wield 2H weapons in one hand while decreasing their attack speed by 20%.

Now, if we compare equal ilevel weapons such as Apolyon, the Soul-Render and Hand of the Deceiver, we see that Apolyon has 148.7 DPS with a 3.4 speed, and Hand of the Deceiver has 114.4 DPS with 2.6 speed.

Assuming that it is a simple percentage increase in swing time, we can calculate the new DPS of any 2H item by using this formula: (DPS*speed)/(speed*1.2)

148.7*3.4/3.4*1.2 = 123.9 DPS, with a 4.08 speed.

This is an increase of ~8.32% DPS over the equal ilevel HotD -- without covering the fact that 2H weapons have a much heavier budget than 1Hers.

While we can postulate that Heroic Strikes will suffer from the much heftier speed, all our other attacks do not, and will increase, easily outpacing the lost DPS. This does mean we are lacking a reliable rage dump.

The rage generation formula works as follows:


R = (7.5d / c + fs) / 2
= 3.75d / c + fs / 2
= 15d / 4c + fs / 2

R is rage generated, d is damage inflicted, c is the rage conversion value, f is the hit factor, and s is the weapon's speed.

Note that as damage inflicted is part of the formula, including the weapon's speed is a form of double-dipping -- a slower weapon deals more damage compared to a faster weapon with equal ilevel already, and with the weapon's speed as a factor, this makes 2Hers generate heavy rage.

We can calculate the rage conversion value as necessary by the following formula:


c = 0.0091107836*L^2+3.225598133*L+4.2652911
L is level.

For instance, for level 75, c would be 297.4.

Let's continue using Apolyon, the Soul-Render as our model weapon.

Average weapon damage with a weapon is equal to its DPS times its speed. That means on average, Apolyon hits for 505-506 damage, without taking attack power or crit into consideration.

Apolyon has 3 sockets and 126 attack power; assuming you socket Bold Crimson Spinels in the sockets, this comes to a total of 186 attack power. On white damage, attack power converts into damage via this formula:

s*AP/14
This means that, on average, the extra attack power on Apolyon means an average hit will be for 559-560 damage.

Let's plot those numbers into our rage generation formula. Assuming level 70:

15*559.5 / 4*274.7 + 1.75*4.08 = 14.77 rage per hit. Keep in mind that we have not included attack power from any other sources than the weapon itself.

To compare, we'll use Hand of the Deceiver. It has two sockets and 54 AP. Again assuming you socket them with Bold Crimson Spinels, this comes out to a total of 94 AP. An average hit with HotD is 114.4*2.6+2.6*AP/14, or ~315 damage.

15*315 / 4*274.7 + 1.75*2.6 = 8.85 rage per hit.

If we put in rough attack power numbers -- say, 2000, 2500, and 3000 -- we get the following:

Apolyon:
2000 AP: ~22 rage per hit
2500 AP: ~24 rage per hit
3000 AP: ~26 rage per hit

HotD:
2000 AP: ~13.7 rage per hit
2500 AP: ~14.95 rage per hit
3000 AP: ~16.2 rage per hit

Note that these numbers are still not accurate; they do not take many factors into consideration. They are just to show the relative difference.

If we convert these numbers into rage per second, we get

Apolyon:
2000 AP: ~5.4 RPS
2500 AP: ~5.9 RPS
3000 AP: ~6.4 RPS

HotD:
2000 AP: ~5.27 RPS
2500 AP: ~5.75 RPS
3000 AP: ~6.23 RPS

This means Apolyon generates around 2.5% more rage per second than HotD -- and this is WITHOUT taking into consideration the increased stats brought on by the heavier itembudget on 2Hers.

It does also mean, however, that rage generation with 2Hers is going to be spiky -- while it averages out over time, rage is something we want on demand; it means relatively little if it averages out eventually. Spiky rage generation leads to spiky damage, especially since a 2H weapon will hit the rage ceiling more often than a 1Her will.

I feel this last point is what most people get hung up about: Rage generation. Is it really that bad?

Horacio
08-13-2008, 06:53 AM
This is an interesting question that people will ponder continually throughout the early stages of the expansion.

Hrm....I'm seriously considering giving it a try. I think it places a greater emphasis on hit rating in order to get consistant rage off your OH as well as capping white hits. Right now, capped for 'specials' in fury gear, rage isn't an issue with 2 slow weapons for me. I think the variables change with Titan's grip because it puts a much greater emphasis on your instant attacks....you're counting on them to hit really, really hard.

Where does Slam come into play? where does inscription come into play? If you could inscribe Slam to make it instant, that's a no CD spammable instant if you generate enough rage.

If you are TG specced and lack hit, you miss a couple white attacks, you're pretty much screwed and will lose alot of DPS sitting on your hands and begging your rage bar to fill.

I'm definitely intrigued and in the end, I expect Blizzard to balance it pretty well but who knows how well they will. The data they have to look at isn't going to be easy to interpet.....there will be plenty of people who do the math or read other people's, gear/enchant/inscribe accordingly and perform one way. There will be plenty more who will fumble around and do crap damage like Richie Sexson in a slump, swing and miss/swing and miss.

Who can say?

Kavtor
08-13-2008, 08:15 AM
The math I've seen generally supports titan grip giving an increase in yellow damage that's roughly matched by a decrease in white damage. Then the break point becomes gear dependent, although streaky rage generation can impact your yellow damage.

Right now, it's a 5 point talent to look cool, rather than an inarguable DPS increase. But it's a pretty easy talent to tweak, so I'm pretty sure it will be reasonable once it goes live. It'll be interesting to see how it scales with slam both solo and in raids especially with the changes to WF once all the changes are in.

phaze
08-13-2008, 09:11 AM
I've seen several people who claim that Titan's Grip is in fact not worth it currently. I haven't seen any hard numbers to that effect, however.

I think the issue is with the interaction between AP and weapon speed, and whether or not an exception is made for TG (I don't believe there currently is, in the beta).

From the EJ thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27758-warrior_wotlk_talent_preview_discussion/p15/), a few posts that directly discuss this.

Crimsonstorm


14 AP results in an increase in damage per swing of 1*Base Speed.

So for a 3.8 speed weapon, 14 AP = +3.8 damage per swing.
For a 1.6 speed weapon, 14 AP = +1.6 damage per swing. (To use extreme examples).

With Titan's Grip, your 3.8 speed weapon now swings only every 4.56 seconds (before haste and flurry). But you still get only 3.8 more damage per 14 AP, not 4.56. So basically, Titan's Grip reduces your white damage by 20%. (Or to be more accurate, you do (1/1.2) = 83.3% as much white damage as before).


So lets say you had the choice of using 100 dps 1H weapons, or 130 dps 2H weapons. And you have 4200k buffed AP.

White dps with the 1Hers is 100(weapon)+300(from AP) = 400 dps, before accounting for misses, crits, armor, etc. (The OH is 62.5% as much).
White dps with the 2Hers and Titan Grip is 130(weapon)+300(AP) = 430, multiplied by .8333 to acocunt for the negative haste of titans grip = 358, before accounting for misses, crits, armor, etc. (The OH is again 62.5% as much).

This results in a loss of about 10% of your white dps.

Now, your special attack dps will increase, and also youll get more stats from the 2Hers. This ends up resulting in a SMALL dps increase, for 5/5 Titan Grip (around 5% I think). HOWEVER, it also severely messes up your rage generation and thus means that you wont be nearly as close to your theoretical max dps. So in reality I dont think youll see much gain at all. Certianly less than if you instead put the Titan Grip points in Axe or Sword spec I think.


Nite_moogle:


At its most rough calculation, Titan Grip is +20% yellow damage, -20% white damage. This looks good on paper, but it breaks down when you use weapons that are slower than the 2H normalized speed. As AP increases the contribution of AP to your yellow attacks does not scale as fast as your AP contribution to white attacks and TG slowly falls behind despite the advantage of no glancing. Bloodsurge is its ace in the hole and some heavy math is going to be required to figure out where the break points are.


If you spend 5 talents for TG, does your PvE damage go up? The answer right now is: maybe. ;)

Taelas
08-13-2008, 09:40 AM
Ahhh. So THAT is the problem. I see.

AP should definitely be affected by the new weapon speed, and not the old one.

Kazeyonoma
08-13-2008, 09:54 AM
If that were the case then haste would suck. Right now haste is an okay stat because the way it works is that it calculates your AP/damage/rage/etc based on the baseline weapon speed before haste. All TG does is apply negative haste, so the same mechanics are in place here. Unless they change TG entirely to use a different coding mechanic, this is how it will have to be. =T

One question I have is what if you used Apolyon MH and Hand of the Deceiver OH? Does the OH get the -20% speed penalty as well? Or are they calculated separately. If it is, wouldn't this go back to the old "slow/fast" mentality before the WW change? Would having a HUGE slow MH make up for the loss in OH WW damage (but buffing MH damage significantly on skills that are based on weapon damage?)? Of course this assumes blizz codes it so it knows 1 from the other, but chances are, equipping 2hander on main gives the speed nerf to your OH as well =(

Tatt
08-13-2008, 10:01 AM
I agree with Horacia, I think fury warriors will become slightly more gear dependant to find the right balance of stats, and become a little more hit rating dependant to eliminate being rage starved off the occassinal misses, but I still think TG is going to become a bread and butter fury warrior skill in wotlk. I am looking at it like a PVE slam warrior. Done badly, yeah you suck. Done well, you can frighten people :)

phaze
08-13-2008, 10:09 AM
One question I have is what if you used Apolyon MH and Hand of the Deceiver OH? Does the OH get the -20% speed penalty as well?
Yes. If you have TG, are currently dual-wielding, and either hand has a 2H weapon equipped: both hands suffer the 20% speed penalty. It's applied as a hidden aura to your character, just like the 19% DW miss penalty.

Taelas
08-13-2008, 10:45 AM
If that were the case then haste would suck. Right now haste is an okay stat because the way it works is that it calculates your AP/damage/rage/etc based on the baseline weapon speed before haste. All TG does is apply negative haste, so the same mechanics are in place here. Unless they change TG entirely to use a different coding mechanic, this is how it will have to be. =T
Yeah, I know that.

Making TG apply negative haste is dumb -- it makes the talent pretty damn useless. :(

Kazeyonoma
08-13-2008, 10:49 AM
Yeh, it does. They "could" code a new mechanic for TG that changes the actualy weapon speed of your weapon instead of using negative haste, but that'd probably require a ton of work too.

In ti's current state, unless 2handers/plate gear comes with enormous amounts of hit, i don't see how this could possibly work =t

ebs2002
08-13-2008, 04:10 PM
Using the spreadsheet found here: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/damage-per-second-discussion/38307-cookie-cutter-3-0-a-4.html#post87133
(yes, I'm plugging my own spreadsheet, what of it?)

And taking into account Apolyon and HoD's values:
114.4dps / 2.6spd
148.7dps / 3.4spd +188 AP (the sheet assumes all else is equal at this point, and although 32haste/42crit isn't equal to 196arp, if anything this will hurt TG a little more)

The following charts show the differences between dual wielding one-handers, and dual wielding two-handers with TG.
95 Hit Rating, 30% crit, Scaling AP up:

2500AP: 9.44% increase when going 5/5 TG
3000AP: 8.12% increase
3500AP: 7.04% increase
4000AP: 6.13% increase
4500AP: 5.36% increase
5000AP: 4.69% increase
...
10k AP: 1.04% increase

95 hit, 2000AP, scaling crit up:
25.0% crit: 11.12% increase when going to 5/5 TG
27.5% crit: 11.09%
30.0% crit: 11.06%
32.5% crit: 11.04%
35.0% crit: 11.01%

2000AP, 30% crit, scaling hit:
95 hit: 11.06% increase when going 5/5 TG
150hit: 10.85%
200hit: 10.67%
250hit: 10.48%
300hit: 10.31%
350hit: 10.13%
395hit: 9.98%

What does this show? In its current implementation, Titans Grip's viability does scale down rapidly as your attack power increases, and scales down very gradually as your hit/crit increases. Haste is as of yet unimplemented, but if people are curious I could factor it in to see. Note that this assumes you can keep up a steady rotation (BF/WW every cooldown), and doesn't consider instant-slams/slam rotations, or heroic striking; just white/BT/WW damage.

For the record, punching my own raid-buffed stats in (3282ap, 33.46% crit, 99hit), I'm seeing a 7.43% increase in DPS when swapping between the two weapons, or 1.48% DPS increase per point.

I also modified my spreadsheet to include the rage generation formula:
1h at my stats: 249.52 rage generated in 60secs (or 4.15 rage/sec)
2h at my stats: 233.54 rage generated in 60secs (or 3.89 rage/sec)
A loss of 6.4%

As my hit increases:
150hit: 6.48% loss in rage
200hit: 6.56%
250hit: 6.64%

As my AP increases:
3500AP: 7.18% loss in rage
4000AP: 8.83%
4500AP: 10.3%

As my crit increases:
35.0%: 6.45% loss in rage
37.5%: 6.52%
40.0%: 6.66%

Again, as AP goes up, rage generation with TG goes down noticeably. As hit/crit goes up, rage generation goes down slightly.

Legionodeath
08-13-2008, 06:40 PM
Why would these stats going up adversely affect DPS? Or am I interpreting it wrong?

ebs2002
08-13-2008, 10:41 PM
"increase" referred to the increase between 0/5 TG and 5/5 TG. As your base stats go up, TG's effectiveness goes down (due to the negative haste's effect on white damage).

Shortypop
08-14-2008, 12:37 AM
Can anyone who's got any clue about DK's answer a question - is a dps DK likely to DW or 2 hand? Just following on to Horacio's comment about hit. Plate dps is going to be shared between arms warriors and ret pallys, neither of whom need much hit; fury warriors and dps DKs - that's the reason for my question.

Plus I find DK trees and abilities too complicated for a "bear of very little brain".

Brutally
08-14-2008, 12:46 AM
Don't forget all the haste that's going to be in WotLK too; that will help smooth out rage generation with 2 2-handers.

Arrivan
08-14-2008, 03:37 AM
This thread perfectly expresses my concerns about TG, much better than I have so far.

ebs2002
08-14-2008, 10:01 AM
I actually just redid the math on my Rage Generation, realizing that before I had just done the total damage instead of each individual swing.

Net result? Waaay bigger loss of rage than I had originally planned.

With the two weapons, at 3k AP, 34% crit, 200 hit rating, Titan's Grip generates 18.3% less rage! (10.16rps vs 8.30rps)

Totally unusable in its current form. They'd have to change the F value if you're using a 2hander to make it usable, I reckon :(

Crimsonstorm
08-14-2008, 05:45 PM
From various math I have done, it appears that 5/5 TG is a small dps incresae (a few %), at a gear level of early epics. (Say, T4 gear in BC, or T7 in WotLK).

But at a level of Sunwell gear with full raid buffs, I'm looking at a Fury warrior with about 4500 AP, and almost 40% crit. Titan grip scales worse and worse as your gear improves, which is its main problem. You start of getting MAYBE as much dps per pt in Titan grip as you do from a point in sword or axe spec, and then it goes DOWN from there as your gear gets better.

Abilities should get BETTER as your gear improves. Not worse.

Tatt
08-15-2008, 08:14 AM
You guys are making me cry. Personally I am starting to figure out a build that has my normal fury spec plus enough points in arms to get axe specced, figuring the extra 5% crit plus the extra crit damage, as a scaling ability, will be the largest dps increase. If anyone thinks the chance on extra hit from swords will outdo axes, please tell me or show me some math to support it, I would be interested.

shiz98
08-18-2008, 08:07 AM
and doesn't consider instant-slams
I think that might throw things off a bit. Those instant slams are going to give TG dps a higher constant term, and will probably give it better scaling with AP. Not that insta-slams are going to be a large part of Fury DPS...

Still, I can't see it being much (if any) improvement over DW in its current state.

ebs2002
08-18-2008, 11:02 AM
Not that insta-slams are going to be a large part of Fury DPS...

100% of your BT crits will give one. If you reach at a modest 35% crit and 3k AP, that's an insta-slam every 17.14secs, for weapon damage + 140. Using a S2 2-hander for reference, that's 457+140+214 = 811dmg on average, or an extra 47dps.

Certainly not huge, but not negligible by any stretch. Someone using a S2 one-hander with similar stats would see an increase of 35.44dps, a difference of 12dps (and this scales with your crit and weapons).

Schleppy
08-18-2008, 01:18 PM
The biggest problem with TG and why the damage is so screwy is due to the poor rage generation of 2 hndrs compared to 1 hndrs. That means for TG to be better then not having TG, there has to be some type of rage bonus involved, either by assuring at a certain level of gear you never miss or each hit generates more rage per second having TG opposed to not having it. Maybe adding on a linked talent to TG that makes the slam proc off broodthirst not only be rage-free, but possibly also generate rage. (testing would need to confirm whether or not that slam needed to generate rage, I personally think rage-free might be enough but cant say for sure.)

Remember, the problem isn't TG, it's the spotty rage generation TG forces upon the warrior who takes it that destroys their rotations forcing them to rely more upon white damage and less upon specials for their damage.

ebs2002
08-19-2008, 09:29 AM
The problem is that TG's negative haste means you generate less rage per second, even though you're wielding higher DPS weapons.

I have a spreadsheet that calculates DPS and RPS both with and without TG. Even ignoring the spottiness of it, 5/5 TG at high attack powers means that you're losing out on 10-20% rage (when compared to equal 1h'ers without TG)

hbombs
08-19-2008, 09:34 AM
so I was testing this on the beta and I came to the conclusion it sucked because my OH never white hit.. then I noticed two hand sword skill 101,102.. etc :)

titans grip rocking a 2h in the MH and a shield made grinding a joke though.

Kazeyonoma
08-19-2008, 10:01 AM
lol sick.

Schleppy
08-19-2008, 01:29 PM
The problem is that TG's negative haste means you generate less rage per second, even though you're wielding higher DPS weapons.

I have a spreadsheet that calculates DPS and RPS both with and without TG. Even ignoring the spottiness of it, 5/5 TG at high attack powers means that you're losing out on 10-20% rage (when compared to equal 1h'ers without TG)


I would say that comes from not valuing hit highly enough. the problem then becomes your rotation is built in fury around bloodthirst, which you can use a skinning dagger for and hit the same. I wonder how TG would look if Bt did weapon damage + 25% of your ap or something of that nature, that factors in the weapon instead of just your AP.

How does TG look without the haste penalty? I think the design concept is for TG to generate slightly less rage, but not so much less you are forced to just slam and WW skipping every other BT cooldown to keep your slams going. I think the perfect balance is if the rage gen of TG is off half of what the haste penalty is. Meaning -20% attack speed generates 10% less rage then 1 handers with equal gear.

Schleppy
08-19-2008, 01:31 PM
so I was testing this on the beta and I came to the conclusion it sucked because my OH never white hit.. then I noticed two hand sword skill 101,102.. etc :)

titans grip rocking a 2h in the MH and a shield made grinding a joke though.

That's another thing, I can imagine shield slam with a fury build hits like a truck, but there is no way to consistently do more then slam and occasionaly add in SS's or BT's or WW's.

ebs2002
08-19-2008, 02:01 PM
I would say that comes from not valuing hit highly enough. the problem then becomes your rotation is built in fury around bloodthirst, which you can use a skinning dagger for and hit the same. I wonder how TG would look if Bt did weapon damage + 25% of your ap or something of that nature, that factors in the weapon instead of just your AP.
Not valuing hit highly enough? At level 70 with 35% Crit, 4k AP, DW Hit Capped (395), comparing 114.4dps 2.6spd one-handers, and 148.7dps 3.4spd two-handers, the TG spec generates 9.85 rage/sec, while the non-TG spec generates 12.2 rage/sec. That's a loss of nearly 20%. The numbers don't count flurry or haste, but all haste does is increase your rage/sec to be rage/.95sec (as an example). The relationship between them remains the same.


How does TG look without the haste penalty? I think the design concept is for TG to generate slightly less rage, but not so much less you are forced to just slam and WW skipping every other BT cooldown to keep your slams going. I think the perfect balance is if the rage gen of TG is off half of what the haste penalty is. Meaning -20% attack speed generates 10% less rage then 1 handers with equal gear.
If TG gave no haste penalty at all, using the aforementioned stats:
With TG: 1413dps, 11.8rage/sec
Without: 1244dps, 12.2rage/sec

Gain: 13.5% DPS (if you can keep your rotation, not counting HS/Slams)
Loss: 3.69% rage/sec

Much more attractive, small downside.

ebs2002
08-19-2008, 02:10 PM
That's another thing, I can imagine shield slam with a fury build hits like a truck, but there is no way to consistently do more then slam and occasionaly add in SS's or BT's or WW's.

Eh, you'd have more rage than an arms warrior, and they cycle slam > MS > WW (dropping out MS/WW as needed). I wouldn't say it's "occasionally" adding in MS/WW for an arms warrior.

Doesn't SS, BT and MS all share the same cooldown though? You can't SS, then follow it up with a BT

Daavos
08-21-2008, 07:06 AM
Just a general question...

If you were to use a 2h weapon for your main haind (3.6), and 1 Handed weapon (2.6 speed) for you off hand, would this improve your rage generation to an acceptable level?

ebs2002
08-21-2008, 10:01 AM
If you're using at least one two-hand weapon while dual wielding, you get negative haste on both hands. So it wouldn't affect your overall rage gen, but it could help smooth out the spikes. You'd still be losing rage though

Arrivan
08-22-2008, 01:07 AM
Titan's Grip got massively buffed in build 8820.


Titans Grip - Now only 1 rank, attack speed decrease removed
Source: World of Raids | World of Warcraft News Guides Guilds & Raid Progression (http://www.worldofraids.com/)

The talent trees in general also got some significant changes too. I'm actually fairly happy with how they look now (except for losing the AP bonus from Rampage :( ). Bloodsurge now makes Slam instant instead of reducing the cast time, which implies that it won't reset your swing timer any more.

As an aside, Blood Frenzy also got a hefty nerf; down to 1/2% damage from 2/4%. Ouch.

Edit: Alright, I was wrong. Imp. Slam just got moved over to Arms. Wowhead's icons are horribly messed up right now.

Meeks
08-22-2008, 05:32 AM
The rampage change is nothing short of amazing. We get a considerably stronger effect, it effects entire raid, and it does not take rage and a global cooldown. That frees up room in the rotation that can be used to up damage even further.

Kazeyonoma
08-22-2008, 10:00 AM
I think the biggest buff to it is the lack of having to interrupt your rotation to refresh it. We basically have a crit version of Relentless Assault. Awesome imo. This means we can now focus on insta-slams =P

ebs2002
08-22-2008, 10:06 AM
I love the changes to rampage. 5% crit increase, doesn't need to be refreshed (I hate when I'm a second too late to refresh rampage and it falls off, or I don't crit for a 5sec window and it falls off).

Yeah, the loss of 250AP hurts, but 5% crit for the whole group is awesome.

The only thing I half wish is that it wouldn't be raid wide, so it would increase my chances of getting into the melee group :p


Titan's Grip changes: awesome. It's now worth going 20/51. Flurry not needing rampage? Awesome. Impale being in tier 2 and not tied to deep wounds? Awesome.

Unending Fury?!? I'm a happy happy fury warrior right now.

Thallan
08-26-2008, 03:15 PM
1st of all great post guys, thanks! Ive been scouring the net for a detailed look at TG and I've found it.

I've got to say in regards to Norrrath's and ebs200's comparison that although the effectiveness goes down with increased stats, TG is till an increase in DPS whether its an 1% or 7% increase.

And I haven't seen anyone mention the youtube videos of titans grip seems to show that rage starvation is not a problem at all.

Kazeyonoma
08-26-2008, 06:02 PM
Well, keep in mind that these #'s were crunched prior to the HUGE buff to Titan's grip. There is NO DOUBT now that it is gonna be a larger increase to dps 100% of the time.

ebs2002
08-27-2008, 10:14 AM
Now that Titan's Grip has been buffed, there's practically no reason to take it. Every fury warrior should go 51pts into fury minimum.

Kazeyonoma
08-27-2008, 10:34 AM
Now that Titan's Grip has been buffed, there's practically no reason not to take it. Every fury warrior should go 51pts into fury minimum.

fix't.

Silly orc =]

Narshe
08-28-2008, 12:39 AM
The only thing I half wish is that it wouldn't be raid wide, so it would increase my chances of getting into the melee group :p

What potential buffs are you losing by staying outside the melee group?

ebs2002
08-29-2008, 08:34 AM
Hah, good point, most buffs are raid-wide now, too. Ignore me, this stuff is all new and I'm struggling to remember my own name let alone what changes are coming!

Thallan
08-30-2008, 08:20 AM
Well, keep in mind that these #'s were crunched prior to the HUGE buff to Titan's grip. There is NO DOUBT now that it is gonna be a larger increase to dps 100% of the time.

Oh Yeah! Well now that i got into beta im gonna be taking a VERY close look at titan's grip. I'll be sure to post a few pics if recount works in beta

Thallan
09-01-2008, 02:29 PM
Wow, Turns out sum of the green gear are minor improvements to stats compared to t4 stats. I turned down 2 green chest pieces for my Merciless chest
EDIT: and i forgot to mention u get a two-hander VERY early in Borean tundra questing so getting a good offhand doesn't take long

Tatt
09-05-2008, 08:27 AM
Something just occured to me. With mobs potentially having much higher armor rating after the xpac, and even without the 20% speed penalty our weapons swinging at a slower rate, will dual mongoose become potentially more effective than executioner/mongoose? Increased speed, plus more crits for more flurry uptime, plus the change to rampage.....opinions?

Krenian
09-05-2008, 08:46 AM
I'm absolutely stoked to play my warrior once more and cannot wait for Wrath to come out. Prot's getting more intriguing by the minute, and Fury's just becoming a nice looking tree.

My biggest worry is they already stated that they're going to look for a counterstroke to TG...I'm hoping that it's not going to be major like the speed penalty to make it useless. Would make me sad I can't swing two two-handers like Diablo 2's Barbarian.

Arrivan
09-06-2008, 12:33 AM
My biggest worry is they already stated that they're going to look for a counterstroke to TG...I'm hoping that it's not going to be major like the speed penalty to make it useless. Would make me sad I can't swing two two-handers like Diablo 2's Barbarian.

I don't see why TG needs a "counterbalance" at all. Preliminary target dummy tests show that Fury and Arms are very close in damage, although this was done on the level 1 dummies. I think the latest build included the level 80 and 83 dummies so some more definitive numbers should be found soon. Even if Fury wipes Arms across the floor I'd still think TG is fine as is, and it would be Arms that needs a buff. If they absolutely must add one, please no swing speed penalties :(

Corbusier
09-06-2008, 04:39 PM
Something just occured to me. With mobs potentially having much higher armor rating after the xpac, and even without the 20% speed penalty our weapons swinging at a slower rate, will dual mongoose become potentially more effective than executioner/mongoose? Increased speed, plus more crits for more flurry uptime, plus the change to rampage.....opinions?

It all depends on a) how the armor penetration rating system gets implemented and b) what new enchants there are available.

When the patch hits though, it'll be executioner/savagery.

Thallan
09-08-2008, 03:20 PM
Something just occured to me. With mobs potentially having much higher armor rating after the xpac, and even without the 20% speed penalty our weapons swinging at a slower rate, will dual mongoose become potentially more effective than executioner/mongoose? Increased speed, plus more crits for more flurry uptime, plus the change to rampage.....opinions?

The 20% attack speed reduction was removed sometime during page 2 of this thread.

BUT
Now that i've been able to play Titan's grip with the new changes, I must reveal the things no one has seen yet regarding this attack rotation:

1) When you hit slam and wait during the 1.5 cast you continue to attack normally. IE no weapon speed resets!
2) When you crit with bloodthirst your only reminder that slam was made an instant is the new buff. I found my way around this by simply doing a BT Slam, Whirlwind, Slam, Slam rotation(rage permirring of course).
3) The 5 minute cooldown in Recklessness combined with the Intensify rage talent is AWESOME!. simply poping all cooldowns during a bossfight like gruuls/mags is going to give us a significant damage increase now that I have 1/3 less time to wait.
4) using recklesss ness guarentess an instant slam if I use BT instantle after using reck.
5) the server im on (Northrend) is very unstable so I haven't even gained a lv yet (IT SUXS!)

and som random stuff 1.7million xp to lv to 71, 20k xp a quest 2k xp a mobkill. When I didnt Dissconnect from the server I found my self killing monsters quickly (20seconds or less)

Tatt
09-09-2008, 06:07 AM
Hope you are right Corb, grinded the honor for S2 sword last night, got is savageried :)

Kazeyonoma
09-09-2008, 10:39 AM
s3 Mace and s3 sword HO....

Galushi
09-09-2008, 10:40 AM
Worldbreaker and S2 sword, if i try out TG.

Inaara
09-09-2008, 10:48 AM
Sudden Death > TG imo.. Then again running around with Cataclysm's Edge and Apolyon, the Soul-Render does have it's own appeal.

Kazeyonoma
09-09-2008, 11:08 AM
well they're comparable is what Serenn found in testing, and I am not terribly surprised, but I like the idea of TG versus dual wield MS Sudden death.

Thallan
09-09-2008, 02:40 PM
To help you guys with weapon comparisons here are the first two 2handers I've received via questing in the first few quest hubs in Borean tundra (hmm no naga as of yet...)
in your 1st quest hub (Warsong hold is sorroundded by a quarry where you start your quests) you recieve:
Combatant Greatsword Combatant Greatsword - Items - WOWDB (http://www.wowdb.com/item.aspx?id=36883)
36883

Then later on after your finish a quets killing a Magnatuar you get
Axe of frozen death Axe of Frozen Death - Items - WOWDB (http://www.wowdb.com/item.aspx?id=38237)
38237

Tatt
09-09-2008, 02:50 PM
Am I wrong but do S2 mace or sword outperform those? Maybe my gear will last me thru the first quest or two :)

Thallan
09-15-2008, 04:32 AM
I'm not to sure cuz the new stats focus more on crit and haste, compard to our epics which balanced out stats...
If it is better then don't expect an upgrade for a while, next actuall upgrade would either be BS made or from the nexus...

shiz98
09-15-2008, 06:16 AM
IMO, the Axe of Frozen Death is roughly equal to S2.