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Grimtooth
08-07-2008, 10:32 AM
Hello all, first time posting here, so be gentle with me. ;)

I had a really bad experience with heroic Steamvault this afternoon, and as it was my first time there, I'm not sure if it was me, or just the group. Steamvault is often said to be one of the easier heroics, so it was kind of soul crushing when I didn't even make it to the first boss.

I'm a prot warrior, and we had a shaman healing, a hunter and 2 warlocks. The only CC we had on the naga pulls was the hunter's traps. She's good at chain trapping, but she was having difficutly as they were resisting quite a lot. So I was left with 3 or 4 mobs to tank in each pull. Usually I'm okay with this, I've run through a few Heroic Mechs without CC and had no problems. But this afternoon, I just couldn't seem to keep control of the situation.

I think the main difficulty I was having was the fact that most of the mobs were casters, and those sirens are pretty annoying. Multi-mob tanking is something I can do, but I was taking a lot of damage from the spells they were casting, and being feared was screwing up my positioning and threat rotation. This lead to panic and a dead party. We ended up with a very miffed healer who promptly left the group, and I don't think the warlocks were too happy either.

So I'm wondering, is it absolutely necessary to bring along some solid CC (polymorph/sap) to heroic Steamvault, or am I just approaching those 2 siren, 1 oracle, 1 melee pulls in a completely wrong way? I've always been against rejecting someone a spot in my group just because they lack CC. As far as I'm concerned, fury warriors can dps for me any day. But I'm wondering if I'm just gonna have to put up with the idea of class discrimination and make a LF Mage macro. :confused: I can imagine it would've gone a lot better if one of those sirens had been CC'd, and I'm not sure if I should be ashamed or not to admit that.

I just couldn't handle those multi-casting-mob pulls. I've had similar trouble with that pull of 4 casters in Ramparts, and I haven't dared to set foot in Heroic Magister's. Is this something anyone else has had trouble with, or am I just a terrible tank? :p

Pasucon
08-07-2008, 10:59 AM
If it's any consolation, I've always found the early SV pulls are the hardest part of the instance. But you did have more CC than the hunter's traps; you had seduce :D In other words, you could have CC'd THREE Mobs instead of one.

Generally, people won't volunteer their CC to a tank, and so part of your job is going to be learning about all the CC that is available, what Mobs each method works on, and which Mobs are specifically immune.

Use this link to learn about all the CC in the game:
Crowd control - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Crowd_Control)

And then search wowwikki for the instance you plan to run to check for specific immunities. For example, here is SV:
Steamvault - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Steamvaults#List_of_Trash_Mobs)

The only additional tips for caster pulls involve practicing Spell Reflect and LoS pulling. With a Hunter, LoS pulling is simple. Stand out of sight, have them Misdirect to you. (Additionally, if you need them to trap a caster, they can use the MD to LoS pet trick)

You can do this completely without CC (even without outgearing it), but I suggest always pulling far, far, far back to avoid adds, using Spell Reflect often, and setting up an interrupt rotation for your DPSers.

mero12513
08-07-2008, 11:06 AM
It's not absolutely necessary, but it will make your life a hell of a lot easier to bring a mage and/or a rouge a long. I personally don't like trap very much as a cc, but that's a whole different discussion.

Some suggestions:
1. Move out of line of sight of casters whenever you can. Pull them to a safely cleared area, around a corner, where they will have to come close to you to see you
2. Spell reflect like a demon. Spamming spell reflect against casters generates huge threat on them. Most things do about 2K damage with spells, so you can get 2K threat on them. It will often reflect multiple spells from different mobs as well. It's great. it's the only way to survive Heroic MgT without a ton of cc.

madocks
08-07-2008, 11:50 AM
If your new to heroics, go back with a better setup, take a mage and a rogue perhaps.

dlongest
08-07-2008, 12:02 PM
The pulls up to the first boss are the hardest part of Heroic SV. And that's normally because a badly placed fear will screw you. For that reason, I try to bring a shaman if I'm going "no CC" because Tremor Totem is worth its weight in gold. With that in the bag, the water elemental pull is the only tricky one left, but with 2 locks, get a banish on the big dude and you can even banish one of the little dudes as well.

A mage puts SV on easy mode.

Daniel

Kadomi
08-07-2008, 01:03 PM
The first time I ever tanked heroic SV, the healer left after the first three pulls, cursing us. We were boggled, because we had so far never had any problems in previous heroics. I went back a couple weeks later with a guild group. This time we took the long way around to the first boss. The healer went down on several pulls and I really was utterly frustrated with the high difficulty of all these pulls. Then we reached the first boss, killed her, and from that point on heroic SV is really ridiculously easy. You just blast through. The tuning is really kind of whack in that respect. To cut a long story short: don't give up on H SV. The section up to first boss is rough, especially with the limited CC you had. A mage and a lock are really incredibly useful, for the trash and the first boss respectively.

Grimtooth
08-07-2008, 01:19 PM
Thanks for the advice everyone. :)

I'm never sure whether to ask for banish or not, because it doesn't last very long, I never know whether it's reliable or not. But I guess 15 seconds is a pretty long time in this game, and when the other mobs you're killing are squishy casters, you're going to get to them quicker. I'll suggest it next time I'm with a lock.

I really should practice my spell reflecting. I only ever use it on the big guys in mechanar so that healers don't hate me, but I never really consider the threat I could be building with it.

I'm actually kicking myself that I didn't get the shaman to use earth shock interruption. I'm levelling a shaman myself and I always try to interrupt casters while I'm healing. >_<

We were using Tremor totems, but the fears were still lasting a little too long. Possibly bad timing. :P The healer was a bit arrogant to be honest. I was trying to LoS pull, but he wasn't having it, saying it "sucks" and putting his totems way outside the tunnel, leaving me with no way of LoSing the mobs. Another lesson learned - we do it my way, or not at all. :p

Thanks for the tips. I'll be having another crack at Steamvaults sometime soon I'm sure,a nd I'll take everything that's been said here on board. :) It looks like I need to really consider the tools we have available at the start of an instance, and discuss it with the group. PUGs are always in such a hurry for some reason...

Pasucon
08-07-2008, 01:37 PM
PuG heroics are interesting these days, because for every new player in greens and blues, you have an epic'd out player that just needs a few more badges for whatever reason. The new player is expecting to struggle through and clear a tough instance, the epic-equipped player is wanting a quick badge run; thus, there is conflict. In terms of what CC to use, I generally use all that is available and break it at my convenience. If you ever have a question about whether or not a specific type of CC will work on a mob, just ask the party.

In terms of CC durations, 15 seconds is long enough to bring down an enemy or two, and keep the active targets to a minimum. Also, don't underestimate how powerful a tool reflect is against casters. On your offtarget mob, Reflect one, Shield Bash, Reflect, Conc Blow, Reflect, War Stomp if you have it, Reflect. You get the idea. Builds threat on it while preventing damage (and therefore healing threat is lower). Just be careful of Fear Reflects... lol

Rev13
08-07-2008, 03:28 PM
The sirens are the one thing you want cc'ed on every pull in SV, no questions asked. Taking the fear out of the equation makes it easy on everyone.

Also, depending on the spec of the Hunter, he could have Silencing Shot the siren, and delayed the fear a bit. When I had silencing shot on my Hunter, I had an instinctive timing as to when they were going to fear, and I'd fire it off. Sometimes that 3 seconds is all you need to take it down.

You could also have the Hunter kite it a bit. They arent the hardest hitters in the group and can be trapped and kited easily, even in heroic mode.

Heroics with short-term cc is difficult, but not impossible.

uglybbtoo
08-07-2008, 07:58 PM
If it's any consolation, I've always found the early SV pulls are the hardest part of the instance. But you did have more CC than the hunter's traps; you had seduce :D In other words, you could have CC'd THREE Mobs instead of one.


The reason the locks didn't volunteer is because the oracle will silence/purge the seduce or if you seduce the oracle the siren will fear and snap the seduce. Its the same problem the hunter was having with the traps the oracle will break them.

The only reliable cc in H-SV is sap and sheep.

However you do have a shaman healing so the fear should have been less of a problem because they can totem for it.

Pasucon
08-07-2008, 09:51 PM
With two warlocks and a hunter, you can seduce both Oracles while trapping the Siren.

loquatious
08-08-2008, 10:37 AM
The good news is once you get past the first few mobs you face the 1st and hardest boss in the instance. When I first did it we pretty much got splatted over and over. Even now I know that within 20 sec we will probably be 4 manning the boss.

After her its a piece of cake.

minitanker
08-11-2008, 04:29 AM
Thanks for the advice everyone. :)

I'm never sure whether to ask for banish or not, because it doesn't last very long, I never know whether it's reliable or not. But I guess 15 seconds is a pretty long time in this game, and when the other mobs you're killing are squishy casters, you're going to get to them quicker. I'll suggest it next time I'm with a lock.

I really should practice my spell reflecting. I only ever use it on the big guys in mechanar so that healers don't hate me, but I never really consider the threat I could be building with it.

I'm actually kicking myself that I didn't get the shaman to use earth shock interruption. I'm levelling a shaman myself and I always try to interrupt casters while I'm healing. >_<

We were using Tremor totems, but the fears were still lasting a little too long. Possibly bad timing. :P The healer was a bit arrogant to be honest. I was trying to LoS pull, but he wasn't having it, saying it "sucks" and putting his totems way outside the tunnel, leaving me with no way of LoSing the mobs. Another lesson learned - we do it my way, or not at all. :p

Thanks for the tips. I'll be having another crack at Steamvaults sometime soon I'm sure,a nd I'll take everything that's been said here on board. :) It looks like I need to really consider the tools we have available at the start of an instance, and discuss it with the group. PUGs are always in such a hurry for some reason...

I leveled a tank because i wanted to tank; its hard and thats good. I made the exact same "decision" that you did; i let someone else talk me out of doing what I knew would be best for the group. Uh, we wiped, then we wiped, then we wiped yet again; so i I simply told the group; if the rogue cannot control his aggro even on single mobs you'll need to find a t5 tank.

After that it was smooth sailing. i can creat threat Im a tank and i've been reading here since i hit 60; just reading as i had, have no input worth reading but this; hehe.

You were in hmode; youi can be as polite as you wish to be but in the end, if they dont wish to do it as you wish to; then simply thank them and hearth. The repair bill will be high enough from the ACTUAL mistakes/bad luck, that happens in heroics without having a group that isn't willing to work together and follow your lead.

Grimtooth
08-13-2008, 01:14 PM
Very true, I've let it happen a few times and it only ever makes things worse. We're the tank, we know how we want to approach each pull, and we know what we're capable of handling. It's only right that the final decision rests in our hands. I need to be a little tougher on party members who think they know better than me, when they don't seem to know what a LoS pull is. ;)

Anyway, I want to thank everyone again for their advice. I ran another HC SV this evening, and we cleared up to (and including) the first boss with no wipes. Group this time included 2 hunters and a mage. I guess using a mage did make things considerably easier, but there were still pulls where keeping casters under control was vital. The hunters did an excellent job of trapping, and everyone just seemed to be on top form. As for myself, I started trying out some spell reflecting, and I even managed to pull off some well timed berserker rage stance dancing to resist being feared. ;)

Unfortunately, I seem to be cursed to never finish SV. My server experienced a massive latency issue once the boss had gone down. Entire chat channels were full of people who couldn't do a thing, and a couple of people in the party were unable to loot their badge. :( Eventually the server just died... and it's looking unlikely that it's coming back up any time soon. Ah well, maybe next time... >_>

Still, feeling a lot better now that I've managed to clear the nightmarish first room of Heroic Steamvault. :D

Squeegiemama
08-14-2008, 02:24 AM
I always spell reflect the siren. Spell reflect is like the secret warrior weapon. If you can keep enough rage between pulls its very easy.

I almost never CC the sirens. If you can spell reflect the first lightning bolt they will stay at range and chuck bolts at you. They dont fear unless you are within melee range. Kill the oracle first and trap/sap/sheep the melee guy and just spell reflect the sirens.

If you have a couple ranged dps in your group you can even continue standing back and spell reflecting while they nuke it down.

Spell reflect is your best friend :)

Edenfall
09-13-2008, 03:40 PM
I'm a bit late to this thread, so I'll have to warn you that I did not read all the comments.

HC SV is really simple if you know what to do. However, the entire group should know what their class and spec can do at this instance, not just the tank. Going with two Warlocks, they can do a lot of things. They should be applying Curse of Tongues on the casters, they can seduce if you choose to, and they can Death Coil the fears cast by the Sirens, BUT you need to be aware of that SV is a pretty shitty instance when it comes to fear effects.

Fear in HC SV - When you see it, you'll shit bricks.

SV might also not be the best instance to bring two of one class into. If you had a Mage, Shadow Priest, Rogue or even a Feral Druid, instead of that second Warlock, you would've had much more slack on the packs.

What you need to be alert on in SV is that aggro is under control. AOE Fears and other mob abilities being used against you, actually matter less, as long as they don't cause a ninjapull. Pulling back already gives you a major advantage. Unless you overgear the instance or come with an exquisite setup, it is important that the DPSers and the Healer have their hands free with no spell pushbacks / stuns.

To be completely honest with you: I ran SV for probably twelve hours straight, two days in a row, to gather the last rep for Earthwarden. I got tired of the instance, really, but now it's been about a year or more and I actually enjoy the instance if I play with people who've got a clue about what to do. Just because I know the drift of the instance. If you're new to SV, run it on Normal first.

Lucky you who still have a challenge left in the 5man genre ;)